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Coaching meltdown.

I am not saying totally change this year but moving forward I think he should change their offensive philosophy. I can't believe a big defensive coach like Allen would want to play the up tempo spread offense because it puts your d in bad positions a lot.
That’s a big part of the problem. Allen is a defensive coach who’s ceded control of the offense to MD and his coaches. He could intervene, but he lacks experience to do so. The same issue existed with Wilson and didn’t get fixed until a strong DC was hired.
 
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Its more than just a different personnel package and having a guy with the size to play fullback, it requires a different skillset from the QB and the OL as well. The QB needs to be under center, which we almost never do, and its a different blocking strategy from the OL. And if you are just using it as a short yardage package, then its not going to be practiced enough to have the timing/rhythm spot on, in which case, its not going to be effective
couldn't disagree with you more. The blocking scheme cannot be that difficult on the 1 yard line and how often would you really need to practice it? I'm tired of the finesse game that is played at all times and how we always complicate the basics. Most of these guys have played some type of spread offense in HS since that is what teams do these days, but do you think being under center or blocking for short yardage is a skillset that our players couldn't comprehend? It will never change, but I think it's a valid discussion point. Other teams do it - why not US! Go Hoosiers!
 
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couldn't disagree with you more. The blocking scheme cannot be that difficult on the 1 yard line and how often would you really need to practice it? I'm tired of the finesse game that is played at all times and how we always complicate the basics. Most of these guys have played some type of spread offense in HS since that is what teams do these days, but do you think being under center or blocking for short yardage is a skillset that our players couldn't comprehend? It will never change, but I think it's a valid discussion point. Other teams do it - why not US! Go Hoosiers!

Blocking schemes and being under center are all about timing and footwork acquired through REPETITION. And its in the 1 yard line area where there is less margin for error and timing is vastly more important.
 
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That’s a big part of the problem. Allen is a defensive coach who’s ceded control of the offense to MD and his coaches. He could intervene, but he lacks experience to do so. The same issue existed with Wilson and didn’t get fixed until anstrong DC was hired.
Let's look at the irony. Frustrated fans want a coach that has expertise on both sides of the ball. So where did CKW end up? At IU he led a team to two bowl games and then grabbed a life ring thrown by Ohio State to be the offensive coordinator and this year he is one of two Ohio State coaches with the title offensive coordinator. I'm happy that we got a head coach that at least has great experience on one side of the ball.
 
Let's look at the irony. Frustrated fans want a coach that has expertise on both sides of the ball. So where did CKW end up? At IU he led a team to two bowl games and then grabbed a life ring thrown by Ohio State to be the offensive coordinator and this year he is one of two Ohio State coaches with the title offensive coordinator. I'm happy that we got a head coach that at least has great experience on one side of the ball.
I think the irony is that IU once again chose to not hire a coach with a more well rounded background, in spite of the results that path produced. The distinctions beyond that are pretty evident . . . One coach brought many years of experience and an incredibly hard nosed / hard aaa mentality to the program. He wasn’t universally loved by the players as a result, but he did instill a toughness in bringing the program up from the very bottom. The other was both lighter on experience and presented a much kinder, friendlier approach. Firey intimidation is not a part of his persona and a far more collegial feel permeates.

So far, it looks like the personalities of the teams are very consistent with that of the respective coaches.
 
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I think the irony is that IU once again chose to not hire a coach with a more well rounded background, in spite of the results that path produced. The distinctions beyond that are pretty evident . . . One coach brought many years of experience and an incredibly hard nosed / hard aaa mentality to the program. He wasn’t universally loved by the players as a result, but he did instill a toughness in bringing the program up from the very bottom. The other was both lighter on experience and presented a much kinder, friendlier approach. Firey intimidation is not a part of his persona and a far more collegial feel permeates.

So far, it looks like the personalities of the teams are very consistent with that of the respective coaches.

Other than the shootout game against a Fickell coached OSU, I don't remember much all that firey about IU's team in Wilson's 2nd year, which also included a 62-14 beatdown Wisc
 
Other than the shootout game against a Fickell coached OSU, I don't remember much all that firey about IU's team in Wilson's 2nd year, which also included a 62-14 beatdown Wisc
Well, his second year team and Allen's second year team aren't remotely similar in terms of talent or depth, so the results of those distinctions weren't as evident as they are now. But Wilson's kids played and competed extremely hard, even when they were quite overmatched.
 
Blocking schemes and being under center are all about timing and footwork acquired through REPETITION. And its in the 1 yard line area where there is less margin for error and timing is vastly more important.
so is the blocking on extra points, field goals, special teams etc. how much time does the entire team practice that? probably not much. I think A LOT of people would agree a tweak in the approach to this is needed. I'm not knocking the team - I spend a lot of money on tickets and travel to home and away games and fully support this team and coach. Just echoing what I feel is something they should consider. One of my favorite quotes of all time that apply to any situation is, "If we do today what we did yesterday, we will get the same results tomorrow" Just saying. Go Hoosiers beat Lions!
 
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Well, his second year team and Allen's second year team aren't remotely similar in terms of talent or depth, so the results of those distinctions weren't as evident as they are now. But Wilson's kids played and competed extremely hard, even when they were quite overmatched.

The 2012 team had 5 guys currently on NFL rosters, (Sudfeld, Coleman, Latimer, Spriggs, Feeney) though certainly all young, another guy that has bounced around in the NFL (Wynn), and another guy that had an NFL career cut short by injury (Bolser). IU depth was certainly an issue for the 2012 team, but top line talent might actually be better than the current team.
 
The 2012 team had 5 guys currently on NFL rosters, (Sudfeld, Coleman, Latimer, Spriggs, Feeney) though certainly all young, another guy that has bounced around in the NFL (Wynn), and another guy that had an NFL career cut short by injury (Bolser). IU depth was certainly an issue for the 2012 team, but top line talent might actually be better than the current team.
The receiving skill guys were quite good and Coleman was too, though not a workhorse. Sudfeld and the linemen showed promise, too, but they were all playing before they should've been due to the total lack of depth and talent. Wilson developed all those guys into pro players, but each was pretty unheralded. Not sure there's that kind of potential on the current team nor any real evidence that that the development side is in place, either.
 
One coach brought many years of experience and an incredibly hard nosed / hard aaa mentality to the program. He wasn’t universally loved by the players as a result, but he did instill a toughness in bringing the program up from the very bottom.
First, the program he took over was not nearly as moribund as you suggest. IU was 5-7 (including a win over Purdue) in 2010, and was a dropped wide open Damarlo Belcher/sure TD pass with 28 seconds left from beating No. 15 Iowa, winning six, and going to a bowl.

Next, if verbal abuse and ridiculing injured players equates with toughness, then yeah, I guess you could call Wilson tough. His head coaching style might have worked in the 1980s but not in the 2010s. Today, it's the stuff that scandals and litigation are made of. You'll never see Mr. Tough Guy in a HC capacity again, at least not at the P5 level.

Under Wilson, legitimate toughness was sometimes in short supply. The most gut-wrenching loss I've experienced as an IU fan was the 55-52 loss to Rutgers, in Wilson's fifth season. You'll remember IU was up by 25 points in the third quarter when our players got complacent, started yucking it up on the sideline, and stopped playing. That's clearly reflective of a lack of discipline - - and toughness. The result was a shocking defeat and the end of thoughts of a glitzy record and a truly special season. There are numerous other examples of dispirited, lackadaisical play during Wilson's tenure. And, at the end of the day, it's all about results. For all of his so-called toughness, he never produced a winning season.
 
The receiving skill guys were quite good and Coleman was too, though not a workhorse. Sudfeld and the linemen showed promise, too, but they were all playing before they should've been due to the total lack of depth and talent. Wilson developed all those guys into pro players, but each was pretty unheralded. Not sure there's that kind of potential on the current team nor any real evidence that that the development side is in place, either.

Wilson certainly gets some credit for their development, but I don't think that WIlson was any sort of developmental guru either, which the dropoff in 2016 shows. I'd agree that its unclear if there's that kind of potential now, but you were the one that initially said that the 2012 talent wasn't even remotely similar to the current level of talent.
 
There are numerous other examples of dispirited, lackadaisical play during Wilson's tenure.

I'll help you out (starting with 2013 when things were really taking shape for Wilson)

2013
Wisc 51-3
OSU 42-14

2014 (before Sudfeld went down)
BG 45-42
Maryland 37-15

2015
Rutgers

2016
Wake
NW
Purdue (We won this game, but barely, and it was probably the worst game we played in either the 2016 or 2015 seasons)
 
I'll help you out (starting with 2013 when things were really taking shape for Wilson)

2013
Wisc 51-3
OSU 42-14

2014 (before Sudfeld went down)
BG 45-42
Maryland 37-15

2015
Rutgers

2016
Wake
NW
Purdue (We won this game, but barely, and it was probably the worst game we played in either the 2016 or 2015 seasons)
Those 2014 losses really stand out for me, particularly the Maryland loss (MD's first-ever Big Ten contest) which was the week after we beat Mizzou in Columbia and thought we had finally turned the corner. I remember, after the Mizzou game, and amidst all the fanfare, Wilson said "we were the same bums" as the week before. Boy, did that turn out to be prophetic. If we had won the BG and MD games, we might have been able to hold onto Tommy Stevens, who decommitted before the season was over.
 
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Those 2014 losses really stand out for me, particularly the Maryland loss (MD's first-ever Big Ten contest) which was the week after we beat Mizzou in Columbia and thought we had finally turned the corner. I remember, after the Mizzou game, and amidst all the fanfare, Wilson said "we were the same bums" as the week before. Boy, did that turn out to be prophetic. If we had won the BG and MD games, we might have been able to hold onto Tommy Stevens, who decommitted before the season was over.

Yeah, in terms of momentum shift for the season, that MD loss might be the worst game of the Wilson era. I could have understood a loss in sloppy mistake prone game or a shootout, but that game 100% lack of effort, especially on the offense, which was shut down by a below average at best MD defense
 
First, the program he took over was not nearly as moribund as you suggest. IU was 5-7 (including a win over Purdue) in 2010, and was a dropped wide open Damarlo Belcher/sure TD pass with 28 seconds left from beating No. 15 Iowa, winning six, and going to a bowl.

Next, if verbal abuse and ridiculing injured players equates with toughness, then yeah, I guess you could call Wilson tough. His head coaching style might have worked in the 1980s but not in the 2010s. Today, it's the stuff that scandals and litigation are made of. You'll never see Mr. Tough Guy in a HC capacity again, at least not at the P5 level.

Under Wilson, legitimate toughness was sometimes in short supply. The most gut-wrenching loss I've experienced as an IU fan was the 55-52 loss to Rutgers, in Wilson's fifth season. You'll remember IU was up by 25 points in the third quarter when our players got complacent, started yucking it up on the sideline, and stopped playing. That's clearly reflective of a lack of discipline - - and toughness. The result was a shocking defeat and the end of thoughts of a glitzy record and a truly special season. There are numerous other examples of dispirited, lackadaisical play during Wilson's tenure. And, at the end of the day, it's all about results. For all of his so-called toughness, he never produced a winning season.
Not hard to find a game or an example of bad behavior, but denying that he instilled a level of toughness in the team that didn’t exist before is incredibly ignorant.

But I agree, it’s about results. Taking over a bowl team and trending it downward is a troubling result, as is a penchant for laying down in big games. Those results aren't terribly positive.
 
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Wilson certainly gets some credit for their development, but I don't think that WIlson was any sort of developmental guru either, which the dropoff in 2016 shows. I'd agree that its unclear if there's that kind of potential now, but you were the one that initially said that the 2012 talent wasn't even remotely similar to the current level of talent.

Wilson brought some toughness, but at an unacceptable cost. His gross mismanagement of the OL and QB roster is still haunting this team. CTA was put in a much tougher position than the casual observer realizes.
 
Wilson brought some toughness, but at an unacceptable cost. His gross mismanagement of the OL and QB roster is still haunting this team. CTA was put in a much tougher position than the casual observer realizes.
Wilson had Sudfeld who was our best QB in the last couple decades. And Lagow was a top 3 passer in the Big Ten his first year. QB was not a problem with Wilson. And neither was OL while Wilson was here.
 
Wilson had Sudfeld who was our best QB in the last couple decades. And Lagow was a top 3 passer in the Big Ten his first year. QB was not a problem with Wilson. And neither was OL while Wilson was here.
Your revisionist history is pretty comical. Sudfeld was very good, but we had Seth Littrell to thank for his recruitment, not Wilson (Sudfeld had originally committed to Arizona when Littrell was their OC, and then followed him to IU). Other than Sudfeld, Wilson had exactly one other very good QB during his six years at IU - - Tre Roberson, who left the program after the greatest single game QB performance in IU history (way to go, Kevin).

Lagow put up some big completion and yardage numbers in 2016, but not to be overlooked is his 5 INT performance against Wake that cost us that game and his 19/17 TD to INT ratio over the course of the season.

For all the talk about Sam Bradford and Wilson's supposed expertise as a quarterback whisperer, it (QB) was a position that he badly managed at IU. In anticipation of Sudfeld's departure, he had nobody in the ranks as a viable successor and had to go the junior college route. On the other hand, Allen, in just his second year, secured the first four-star QB in program history.

Oh, and our OL in 2016 (Wilson's last season) dropped off considerably from the year before.
 
Your revisionist history is pretty comical. Sudfeld was very good, but we had Seth Littrell to thank for his recruitment, not Wilson (Sudfeld had originally committed to Arizona when Littrell was their OC, and then followed him to IU). Other than Sudfeld, Wilson had exactly one other very good QB during his six years at IU - - Tre Roberson, who left the program after the greatest single game QB performance in IU history (way to go, Kevin).

Lagow put up some big completion and yardage numbers in 2016, but not to be overlooked is his 5 INT performance against Wake that cost us that game and his 19/17 TD to INT ratio over the course of the season.

For all the talk about Sam Bradford and Wilson's supposed expertise as a quarterback whisperer, it (QB) was a position that he badly managed at IU. In anticipation of Sudfeld's departure, he had nobody in the ranks as a viable successor and had to go the junior college route. On the other hand, Allen, in just his second year, secured the first four-star QB in program history.

Oh, and our OL in 2016 (Wilson's last season) dropped off considerably from the year before.
Yea and Stoops/OU and Urban/OSU are all morons for hiring the guy. He knows nothing about offense.
 
Your revisionist history is pretty comical. Sudfeld was very good, but we had Seth Littrell to thank for his recruitment, not Wilson (Sudfeld had originally committed to Arizona when Littrell was their OC, and then followed him to IU). Other than Sudfeld, Wilson had exactly one other very good QB during his six years at IU - - Tre Roberson, who left the program after the greatest single game QB performance in IU history (way to go, Kevin).

Lagow put up some big completion and yardage numbers in 2016, but not to be overlooked is his 5 INT performance against Wake that cost us that game and his 19/17 TD to INT ratio over the course of the season.

For all the talk about Sam Bradford and Wilson's supposed expertise as a quarterback whisperer, it (QB) was a position that he badly managed at IU. In anticipation of Sudfeld's departure, he had nobody in the ranks as a viable successor and had to go the junior college route. On the other hand, Allen, in just his second year, secured the first four-star QB in program history.

Oh, and our OL in 2016 (Wilson's last season) dropped off considerably from the year before.
Talk about revisionist history . . . Sudfeld didn't follow SL to IU. He waited until UCLA didn't offer and then opted for his only P5 offer. As for qb not being a strength during Wilson's time at IU, the Eagles would beg to differ.
 
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Talk about revisionist history . . . Sudfeld didn't follow SL to IU. He waited u til UCLA didn't offer and then opted for his only P5 offer. As for qb not being a strength during Wilson's time at IU, the Eagles would beg to differ.
If you're arguing that Seth Littrell was not the primary driver of Sudfeld's recruitment, you're mistaken.

And I'm not disputing that Sudfeld was a very good one. Unfortunately, he was the only high quality QB who committed to IU during Wilson's six years here (Roberson was recruited by Lynch and committed before Wilson was hired). That was the problem. Wilson was unable to attract another high-end QB.
 
If you're arguing that Seth Littrell was not the primary driver of Sudfeld's recruitment, you're mistaken.

And I'm not disputing that Sudfeld was a very good one. Unfortunately, he was the only high quality QB who committed to IU during Wilson's six years here (Roberson was recruited by Lynch and committed before Wilson was hired). That was the problem. Wilson was unable to attract another high-end QB.
Of course I didn't argue that which, if you read my post, would be obvious. But his decision to come to IU, while facilitated by SL, only came to pass after UCLA declined to offer him.

The Kiel and Stevens recruitments were huge blows to Wilson, with the former being a largely self-inflicted wound. If he gets Kiel, however, he never gets Nate.
 
I think the irony is that IU once again chose to not hire a coach with a more well rounded background, in spite of the results that path produced. The distinctions beyond that are pretty evident . . . One coach brought many years of experience and an incredibly hard nosed / hard aaa mentality to the program. He wasn’t universally loved by the players as a result, but he did instill a toughness in bringing the program up from the very bottom. The other was both lighter on experience and presented a much kinder, friendlier approach. Firey intimidation is not a part of his persona and a far more collegial feel permeates.

So far, it looks like the personalities of the teams are very consistent with that of the respective coaches.

Wilson’s teams were not all that fiery. If you are talking how a team reflected it’s coach, I would say the word “confusion” comes to mind for the Wilson identity. The guy could not get a play in half the time from the sideline. Burning time outs. His hurry up offense, when they worked, could strike quickly. When try didn’t, he produced one of the fastest 3-and-out teams in America.

How do you practice a significant portion of you spring ball and fall practice preparing for the Navy game and still give up 400 yards rushing? I mean, what the hell were they doing?

Just because Wilson was the angry version of Otis, doesn’t mean his teams were tougher or his style better than an upbeat coach.
 
Of course I didn't argue that which, if you read my post, would be obvious. But his decision to come to IU, while facilitated by SL, only came to pass after UCLA declined to offer him.

The Kiel and Stevens recruitments were huge blows to Wilson, with the former being a largely self-inflicted wound. If he gets Kiel, however, he never gets Nate.

As I said, other than Littrell's recruitment of Sudfeld, IU (i.e. Wilson) was unable to get anything going with respect to QB recruiting during Wilson's tenure. He probably would've been able to hold onto Stevens if his (Wilson's) team hadn't crapped the bed against Bowling Green and Maryland in 2014.

Wilson's QB recruiting woes were kind of surprising - - and disappointing - - given his offensive coaching reputation and history with Bradford.
 
Wilson’s teams were not all that fiery. If you are talking how a team reflected it’s coach, I would say the word “confusion” comes to mind for the Wilson identity. The guy could not get a play in half the time from the sideline. Burning time outs. His hurry up offense, when they worked, could strike quickly. When try didn’t, he produced one of the fastest 3-and-out teams in America.

How do you practice a significant portion of you spring ball and fall practice preparing for the Navy game and still give up 400 yards rushing? I mean, what the hell were they doing?

Just because Wilson was the angry version of Otis, doesn’t mean his teams were tougher or his style better than an upbeat coach.
But Wilson's teams certainly weren't soft.
 
As I said, other than Littrell's recruitment of Sudfeld, IU (i.e. Wilson) was unable to get anything going with respect to QB recruiting during Wilson's tenure. He probably would've been able to hold onto Stevens if his (Wilson's) team hadn't crapped the bed against Bowling Green and Maryland in 2014.

Wilson's QB recruiting woes were kind of surprising - - and disappointing - - given his offensive coaching reputation and history with Bradford.

For a man that's specialty was recruiting QBs. He was piss poor at it. Might have sometging to do with why he went against doctors wishes and dug his own grave. Of course at OSU he has a stable to work with and wont have any issues there.
 
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But Wilson's teams certainly weren't soft.

Soft? His teams gave up over 500 yards per game on defense his 5th season in 2015. That’s called getting run over. What part of that was “tough” in your book? And, that was with a veteran defense! His team gave up an average of 509 ypg and ranked 121 out 128 FBS programs. You continue to throw out generalizations without any facts.
 
Soft? His teams gave up over 500 yards per game on defense his 5th season in 2015. That’s called getting run over. What part of that was “tough” in your book? And, that was with a veteran defense! His team gave up an average of 509 ypg and ranked 121 out 128 FBS programs. You continue to throw out generalizations without any facts.
You mean like your Ferentz / Iowa "analysis"? I'm not saying Wilson's teams played well, particularly on defense, but they weren't soft. There's a difference.
 
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Wilson had Sudfeld who was our best QB in the last couple decades. And Lagow was a top 3 passer in the Big Ten his first year. QB was not a problem with Wilson. And neither was OL while Wilson was here.

He had Suds and then the QB roster fell off the shelf. Lagow? If that is your standard for IU FB you have little interest in the program improvung. Some of us have higher expectations. Something TA is saddled with fixing. He brought in Penix who will have a chance to prove himself. The OL roster has been a serious deficiency for two years. I was a lone voice out here helping others understand the problem last year...now most see it. This is on Wilson and again...TA's to fix. Can he? Not sure yet.

My point is that TA did not inherit the overall strong roster that casual observers believe. OL and QB are damned important roster areas.
 
He had Suds and then the QB roster fell off the shelf. Lagow? If that is your standard for IU FB you have little interest in the program improvung. Some of us have higher expectations. Something TA is saddled with fixing. He brought in Penix who will have a chance to prove himself. The OL roster has been a serious deficiency for two years. I was a lone voice out here helping others understand the problem last year...now most see it. This is on Wilson and again...TA's to fix. Can he? Not sure yet.

My point is that TA did not inherit the overall strong roster that casual observers believe. OL and QB are damned important roster areas.

Outside Feeney, the 2016 OL was in really bad shape, and it showed when when he was out for a few games. A drop off without an All American is expected, but what we saw though is that without Feeney, IU was fielding it’s weakest OL of Wilson’s tenure. Overall, I'd say Wilson actually left the OL in worse shape than when he got here, as the OL in 2011 was actually pretty decent
 
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Outside Feeney, the 2016 OL was in really bad shape, and it showed when when he was out for a few games. A drop off without an All American is expected, but what we saw though is that without Feeney, IU was fielding it’s weakest OL of Wilson’s tenure. Overall, I'd say Wilson actually left the OL in worse shape than when he got here, as the OL in 2011 was actually pretty decent
Dimitric Camiel, a multi year starter, also missed much of that season due to injury.
 
Outside Feeney, the 2016 OL was in really bad shape, and it showed when when he was out for a few games. A drop off without an All American is expected, but what we saw though is that without Feeney, IU was fielding it’s weakest OL of Wilson’s tenure. Overall, I'd say Wilson actually left the OL in worse shape than when he got here, as the OL in 2011 was actually pretty decent

Inexcusable. Roster. Management.
 
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