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Chokehold death

Once again

You either missed the point or are ignoring it. I never said anything about the NY case I was replying to Fro. Just like you showing a picture has nothing to do with the case of a cop in ny killing a man in ny a few months ago.

This post was edited on 12/4 3:47 PM by GOIU
 
Uh...

I know you're not a dumb person, so I'll write this response off to the delusions of a closet racist, partisan hack you've shown yourself to be. With well detailed rationalizations I will add, but transparent to anyone (like me) with some sense.

Lethal force means force that causes death. Garner's death was ruled a homicide, as in a result of the police officer(s) causing suffocation. Force applied leading to homicide/death = lethal force.

But now we're (again) blaming the victim...he was resisting, he deserved it, he was asthmatic, overweight, etc (ignoring the coroners report)...you've outdone yourself, CO.
 
You mean...

Garner had experience being harassed by police repeatedly for something so incredibly insignificant and let's not forget, this time ALLEGED (as you rationalizers of excessive police lethal force like to bring up semantics/fine details)...but he should have known and expected to be choked/asphyxiated from behind while the offending officer smiles after and waves to the camera as he is dying?

Yeah, guess he should have known...on him. He deserved to die and there be no consequence to his death. You've convinced me.
 
Glad you clarified...

whew, I feel a lot better about what happened now. Do you need to get a degree or special certification to identify a proper rear naked choke? Or just personal experience?
 
What a Dick With Ears you are. Well done.

You added the picture.

You can now return to your pathetic white-guilt fainting couch; lie down, close your eyes and place a cool washcloth on your forehead to soothe your fevered brow.
 
Proper police response - bad handling of complications

1. Race has nothing to do with this. While selling cigarettes at a lower price, selling loosies, or selling bootleg cigs to get around taxation is a public service, the vendors strongly oppose people that do it. This person wasn't targeted because of his race. It isn't a serious offense, but if the police tell you to do something, you better do it. Being big doesn't mean they won't try to force you into compliance. The supervisor on the scene was a black woman officer.

2. They used a common practice to get him on the ground. His lack of air was not from the hold used to get him on the ground. Things went south while he was on the ground.

3. The cops ignored the seriousness of his distress. Again, they didn't do this because of race. They probably thought he was faking or didn't understand anything about his health or complications.

4. It wasn't murder. I am sure they didn't want to hurt him, but they did. If they are guilty of anything it was not providing him proper care while in their custody. That is an area they could look at to bring charges or discipline those responsible. Him being in custody and the measures needed to get him in their control was based on his size and level of resistance.

5. Every cop there needs to be reprimanded at a minimum, but not charged in his death. There may be other charges that could be brought. I don't know if the Good Samaritan law would apply here, but I believe assistance was summoned and he had a heart attack on the way to the hospital.

6. It is possible that the health issues of this man in combination of the arrest caused his death. I suspect there was something about his condition that led the grand jury to not charge the officers.

7. I don't know why the mayor of NY felt the need to bring up race in his apology in the presser today. Is every time a black person arrested and injured while resisting arrest from now on going to be race related? I would hate to be a cop.

This post was edited on 12/4 4:29 PM by iubud
 
Nobody thought he would die

I am sure Garner didn't expect to die that day. The police didn't expect that putting this man on the ground would cause him to die. But, he did die. Today, it has to be someones fault. Someone is always wrong and someone is always right.

This was an accidental death with Garner at fault for not complying and the police at fault for losing patience with an uncooperative person. In this case you can't charge Garner with a crime, so the police must be wrong?

Did this guy sleep standing up?
 
Just curious

How would you have handled the situation? I'm really curious to see what responses I will get. I really don't know what the correct response should have been. If this was his first time I would think they should have told him move along and stop selling. If it was the 5th time (random number) I'm not sure what should have been done. Seems like they used one of the best ways(less chance of hurting him) to try to subdue him. Of course, I'm no expert in law enforcement so there may be a lot better ways.
 
"closet racist, partisan hack"

Sope said my penis is too small and I have a personality disorder. Rock said I masturbate to picures of Sarah Palin but he also said I got my head up my ass. I guess I have the Sarah Palin scrap-book up there too. You've got a long way to go. But hang in there. You can still keep up with the quality of the board with more effort.

BTW you're dead wrong on the merits.
 
Just think if he sold chips with trans-fats

they probably would have called out the swat team.

I know, I know. This isn't a subject to make jokes about. But your posts are cartoonish.
 
It's called mirroring.

The responses here about this topic from folks...you included are cartoonish. I'm highlighting how ignorantly stupid they are.

Tell me more about your definition of lethal force and the great lengths these officers went to to avoid using it, counselor. I'm only a doctor...you're probably more versed on this than I.
 
Why don't they

ever get an independent lawyer to take something like this to the grand jury....someone that is not connected to the police in no way?
 
I'd like to hear more about your thoughts on the restraint shown here...

by these officers. And I'm interested in you expounding on the incredible job they did avoiding lethal force. That is truly quality material worthy of this board.
 
Yes, the police were wrong.

There was no need to put this man on the ground at all. And certainly not in a way that the coroner (who is light years more qualified than you or even I in determination of cause of death) deemed causative of his death.

We should all (race aside) have a major problem with this.

Do you have children? Imagine this happened to your child for something so petty that ALLEGEDLY occurred. Would you be fine with this if it happened to your child, family member?

I know empathy is difficult for some, maybe you, but try it on. We're talking about the death of a human being that was senseless and unnecessary at the hands of police, people WE pay to protect us. You're damn right someone is wrong in this case.

Intentions may reflect what specific charges would be called for, but ignorance and stupidity doesn't acquit someone from being responsible.
 
Great question, NPT.

Great question. The process is implicitly flawed/skewed in favor of police (as I've discussed at length in previous threads).
 
So, if a patient dies under your care, are you a murderer?

Sometimes, haven't you had someone die because things just happened?

C'mon man, stuff happens sometimes. Admit it, surely you've seen it first hand...
 
"Sometimes that 2x4 needs to be a 4x8."

Unfortunately for you, your posts speak for themselves.
 
Proctologist?

Your opinions seem to be focused in that area.

Lethal force means that force likely to result in death. Guns are a clear example. Fists are more questionable. How about a scalpel? Patients die on the operating table even when the risk of death is miniscule. Do surgeons apply lethal force with every operation?









This post was edited on 12/4 5:17 PM by CO. Hoosier
 
"Do surgeons apply lethal force with every operation?"

This is an aggressively stupid question.
 
Use of force continuum

lethal-force-continuum.gif

The officers progressed up the ladder. They didn't start at the top. Level 1-3 had no effect. Remember the supervisor on scene was an African American woman. She would have ordered the arrest. The only alternative was for the officers to leave without taking the subject into custody. But then the law abiding merchants who complained about his illegal activity would have rightfully asked WTF?









This post was edited on 12/4 5:18 PM by CO. Hoosier
 
I've never used the word murderer.

I've vociferously voiced that there should be consequences. Significant consequences.

You're goddamn right there are consequences if by my own ignorance by practicing outside the reasonable standard of care I kill a patient. Especially if while the patient is dying I smile and wave to a camera smugly. The proper comparison would be if I opened someone's chest up without proper surgical skills then left them on the table to die when all they had was a minor cold. Seriously man, get a clue.

Hell doctors are prosecuted these days for much, much less than that.

Things happen? Yes, "things" happen. There was no need for this "thing" to happen. Again being stupid, unecessarily aggressive and ignorant is no excuse for killing someone.

But in your world I guess it's "oh well...someone died at the hands of police again". "Shit happens". I value life more than that, I guess.
 
You've crossed into...

the cosmically stupid reply zone. Not even I can help you remove your head from your ass on this one.
 
No.

That's not hold utilized by the police officer and not the one we taught - though I don't recall exactly what we called it. It was non-lethal control hold. The hold itself didn't kill this guy. The autopsy report, according to the reporting I've read, said that the hold and the other officers actions combined with the guy's health issues resulted in his death. A normal healthy person likely wouldn't have died from this.

That being said, I personally think the cops should have told the guy to move along. I also don't think a guy needed to be treated like that for such a petty crime.
 
Then answer the damn question!

You are the one who said lethal force is any force that results in death. In framing it in that fashion, you removed all discussion about the purpose of the force, the predictiable outcome, the probability of death, or whether the death is an anomaly resulting from other factors.
 
The neck...

where your trachea, vasculature that feed the brain, etc live is a vital area. As is the chest where your lungs, heart, vasculature live. Choking, crushing/applying force to both leading to death. Yeah, thanks for the diagram to illustrate a use of lethal, now deadly force, for a man "resisting" arrest for ALLEGEDLY selling a couple loosies.

The African American supervisor did not authorize the off duty cop to reverse-naked-choke-hug neck-whatever the rationalizers are calling his manuever or to crush/compress his chest so he couldn't breath and died. If she did she should be responsible as well. Of course in your mind this fact somehow makes it all ok. The supervisor was African American! I can toss this into my non-sensical intellectualization about why this whole thing was ok!

This post was edited on 12/4 5:41 PM by Gergs
 
I value life too. I have also referred to this as a tragedy.

I'm also realistic enough to know that tragic, unfortunate, and unintended things happen in all facets of life. That doesn't always mean someone else should be held accountable.
 
His take down move...

was not acceptable in the standard practice of police, nor was the subsequent compression by the officer(s) that caused his death. Garner repeatedly shouted he could not breathe. Ignored. Lethal force continued to be applied and he died. Then a lengthy delay before resuscitation efforts. Also ensuring/contributing to his death and against standard police protocol. Take down officer smugly smiles and waves to camera as man lays dying on the ground, again not police protocol/completely inappropriate and indicative of his lack of concern and value of the human life in danger before him.

A complete cluster f*** of poor police work. All because someone alleged this man was selling loosies. But they're not responsible in any way. Garner's fault. You're on it. And you didn't ask a damn question, Jack.

This post was edited on 12/4 5:37 PM by Gergs
 
I've learned...

that they continue to happen, repeatedly, if people aren't held accountable and changes aren't made because people just rationalize it. Like you.

I don't support that perspective. I support the perspective that looks to prevent "things" like this from happening.
 
Why?

Did she order the officer who made the chokehold manuever and their compressing the suspect's chest? That detail (the supervisor being a black female) means squat in and of itself. When did she arrive, what did she advise/order in the handling of this suspect? You're more than willing to parse details when it supports your worldview.

Why are blacks 21 more times more likely to be killed by (predominantly white) police? How many white guys are being asphyxiated for selling loosies and not being happy but peacefully protesting being arrested because they've been harassed repeatedly by cops? Do you have to tell your kids to be cautious/careful when encountering a police officer because there is a high likelihood regardless of what they did or did not do that they will be lawfully killed?

Race, unfortunately, does matter in these cases. It isn't bullshit...I've got no reason to "exploit" it. Neither do many citizens that are rightfully concerned about these episodes with police. The trends are clear and beyond concerning. Only ignorants completely refuse to consider it. You, for example.
 
First of all...

I'm not a police officer and I'm not versed in all the laws and procedures. These officers were. Common sense would lead me to talk to the shopkeepers, witnesses about the actions of the suspect to determine if there was reason to arrest him. For something so miniscule even if witnessess did corroborate the complaint, I'd have advised him to move on and not sell the individual cigarettes. I'm also trained to VERBALLY de-escalate a situation/conflict. I deal with agitated, aggressive, psychotic/manic, you name it patients regularly. You're putting your and the other person's life at risk when you apply significant force to someone's neck and chest. I'd have never leaped up and put him in that choke hold based on the info I have and what I saw on that tape, nor would I have multiple officers compressing his chest. Completely not called for IMO, obviously, and I doubt that is acceptable police procedure. If it is they need a complete revamp. I also would not have ignored his pleas that he couldn't breathe or hesitate to initiate CPR when he went unresponsive. For starters...
 
A cop killed a peaceful guy for selling loosies


And we have people here arguing that this is okay. Everyone should take note of this. It's how people reveal themselves for who they are. Shame, shame, shame.
 
I think we are looking in the wrong direction

I believe race is tangential here. Surely there are racists in America, in the police, in the DA offices. I don't think anyone would deny that, and that is a problem that needs its own solutions. I am not sure that is what we are seeing in these more high profile cases.

Let us look at one of the most famous police chases in history, the OJ slow speed chase. At no point did the police try to stop the Bronco. There were no roadblocks, no spike sticks, no pivot maneuvers. The Bronco drove, and drove, and drove. The police were willing to wait until, well, until it ended. I don't for a moment believe that would have been the case if in the back were OJ Sampson an unemployed Black.

Nor do I believe the police would have been in a hurry to tackle NY Giants football player Jason Pierre Paul if he were guilty of the same crime and reacted the same way as Eric Garner. Somehow the police would have found a way to wait and let the process play out, even if it took hours. Just as I don't believe there would be a raid on Bill Cosby's home if it is determined he raped someone within the statue of limitations. His lawyer will get a phone call to present him by a specific time.

But Eric Garner wasn't a millionaire. So the police weren't going to wait. I'm not even suggesting that is wrong, I am suggesting if the police weren't willing to wait for Garner they shouldn't then wait for someone wealthy in a similar circumstance. The police should behave the same, and I'm not sure anyone here can say they would have behaved the same.

Now this becomes slightly racial because a black is more likely to be poor than a white. But that isn't the driving force in these examples.

During the riots in August, and again 10 days ago, I found General Russel Honore an interesting talking head. On night two last week he was discussing some of the problems we saw in Ferguson from his point of view. He seemed to suggest on night one the police were desperate to keep a road clear, and kept pushing protesters off of it. He was noting in night 2, the big protests in NY and LA, the police were letting the crowd go where they want. He was strongly saying that as long as violence didn't break out, that was the proper response. He said a lot of problems develop when those in authority issue an edict "because I said so" .

I think somewhere in our poorer neighborhoods we are seeing a lot of "because I said so". The police want, and expect full cooperation. The residents believe the police are harassing them. The "because I said so" becomes a wedge. Yes, there are times that it is important for a police officer to exert that authority. I am just not sure that authority doesn't get used too often, creating the problem.

And we clearly didn't see that authority attempted with OJ. I doubt it is used very often in gated communities even in cases of domestic violence and other more violent crime. I suspect, but can't prove it, the police begin out a bit more differential. And that comes from the second point.

One of CNN's analysts had been a police officer. He said that the one thing he and his police friends knew as a truism is that the fate of a trial can be determined the moment the defense attorney walks in. If it is a high priced attorney, the trial is going to go far worse for the DA than if it is a public defender. I doubt too many here would disagree with that overall concept (and again OJ can be the poster child). So the police know any mistakes they make investigating someone who can hire whomever today's Gerry Spence is will be greatly magnified. From the beginning they will treat that person differently and again I theorize, with more deference.

In this case, I know Eric Garner needed arrested for what he did. But he did not appear at any time to resist, nor try to escape. Even if he tried to escape, looking at him I'm doubtful he was capable of anything but a slow speed chase. I don't know why the decision was made to end it at that moment, but I am very skeptical that moment would have been chosen if Eric Garner were someone who was clearly very wealthy. I'm not sure there wouldn't have been more of an effort to talk him in.

Justice is supposed to be blind, and I'm not sure she is. I'm not sure this is a racial problem, though I am sure there are at times racial issues. As is pointed out below, there are issues like Driving While Black. But more so I believe we have a class problem. From the moment a Bentley is pulled over I suspect everything goes different than when a rusted out 1980's Civic is pulled over. Am I wrong? Even in a DWB, I suspect the Bentley driver is treated differently than the Civic.

To a small extent, I think part of the problem is Fort Apache (or the remake, Fort Apache The Bronx). We have come to believe the police are the only hope to keep civilization in what would otherwise surely be lawless territory. And that may be true, but the police can't have that view. Once they view themselves as someone separate/different than the civilians they encounter there is a problem.

Somewhere we need people in these communities to offer police more respect, and at the exact same time we need the police to show the same respect to the civilians if it is a gated community or section 8. I have sympathies for the police, even if this post may not indicate it. They aren't liked in these communities which leads to this us/them atmosphere. And it is surely more dangerous to be a cop in center township Indy than in Carmel. So I get the fear from that increased danger creates some of this tension. I know if I feared for my life I wouldn't behave close to the same. But that is what training has to do. The training has to have them able to treat Eric Garner the same as OJ Simpson. We know it's possible, I have a friend who was a Captain in Fallujah and they had to deal with this exact same problem. Most civilians they encountered were peaceful, but some desperately wanted to kill him and his men.

Lastly, it may be needed to train some police in martial arts. I have several friends who are heavily into the sport, and I've both seen and been demonstrated on the value of joint locks. I believe there were ways a Garner could be brought to his knees by something like that which is far safer than going for the neck. Maybe it isn't worth investing in for every officer, but all it would have taken is one out of five.

I feel bad for the officer involved, I don't think he wanted to hurt Garner. I also am not sure he consciously saw a black man and reacted differently. But in our history, the large black male was long used as a source of fear among whites. I can point out civil war literature of Southerners using the physical prowess of the large black male as the reason they had to be enslaved. I can point you to sports boards today where white posters will state with no fear that blacks are faster and stronger than whites. We saw it in the book Moneyball, when Beane won the footrace against people like Strawberry the scouts had them lineup and run again as clearly Beane had to have a false start. Somewhere deep in the recesses of the officers involved, I suspect this played a small role. But, I still believe it isn't the main driver, if that were a black NY Giant or Jet standing there not wanting to be handcuffed I believe some other solution would have been found. The cops were scared, they felt a time crunch for some reason and acted. I believe they suspected that action was safe, I just don't think they would have acted that way 100 times out of 100 depending on many factors (the suspect's size, color, and wealth).
 
Wow genius post

Way to read rocks post and follow up for no reason. Brilliant stuff, and yes I've had experience in both delivering and being put in them. Once again bravo on your well written post it added much to the board.
 
The data suggests both are an issue.

It is both a black problem and a class/socioeconomic/poor problem. And I don't think we can definitively say in these cases that race is "tangential". It's not the only factor, but it is no coincidence...as the data supports. These things are disproportionately happening to blacks, at the hands of primarily white cops.

But I agree with your post generally. You make some very valid points. Thank you for injecting some consideration to the thread.

I don't see anything, though, that indicates there was a reasonable cause (nor do I believe they showed behavioral evidence of) for the officers to be "scared" (did he seem scared or even concerned as he smiled and waved to the camera?) nor do I see evidence that the officer's actions (one that leaped up and choked Garner) were well thought out or indicative of thinking these actions were safe. It seemed a quick, aggressive response to their perceived challenge to their authority with the goal of submission of the suspect...with little consideration for the cause to apply such techniques.
 
Oh yeah, sorry it was under yours

Shouldn't have been! Def knew yours was sarcasm....
 
That's a very reasonable

answer. The part I don't know is whether the police had been called several times to tell him to stop or whether this was a regular occurrence. If it was a regular occurrence I can see the police getting tired of going to tell him to stop selling. If I recall correctly you are a psychologist or something similar because I believe it was you and Joe-Six-Pack that had some pretty heated discussion about drugs like Prozac. Correct me if I am wrong. If you are a psychologist I know you would have lot more skill dealing with a person like Gardner than the police would. I'm sure they are probably given some training in that area but not like you would have. I don't think I could ever do it.
 
Was the officer

that jumped on his given an order to arrest by his sergeant? What would be the consequence of not obeying an order? Are police officers taught to follow orders like in the army? I have absolutely no idea about the inner workings of a police department.
 
Are they saying it's ok

Or it was an unforeseen accident? Should it have been handled different of course and when I watched the video a few months ago I thought no way he ( the cop) doesn't go to jail and I still think that. At the same time I doubt the cop went out thinking he was going to kill a black man which seems like involuntary manslaughter.

I'm also guessing, and it's a guess, that his asthma had more to do with his death than some kind of choke hold. My son has asthma and after a run he can talk but has a hard time breathing, so the stress from the cops on him I'm sure exasperated his asthma.
 
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