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Any Coolerites ready to change their opinions

It refers to some of the

captives that were later released and acknowledged to have been captured because of incorrect intel. Sorry for not being clear. So yes, we thought someone was the enemy. We tortured him. We later found out we made a mistake.
 
I've always respected Bob Kerry

and his words are a welcomed part of the debate. I think it is also worth our time to listen to Senator McCain's speech yesterday. I believe he addresses some of your concerns.

McCain
 
It might be helpful to look at these words from

President Reagan as he addressed torture.


"The United States participated actively and effectively in the negotiation of [this] Convention. It marks a significant step in the development during this century of international measures against torture and other inhuman treatment or punishment. Ratification of the Convention by the United States will clearly express United States opposition to torture, an abhorrent practice unfortunately still prevalent in the world today.
The core provisions of the Convention establish a regime for international cooperation in the criminal prosecution of torturers relying on so-called 'universal jurisdiction.' Each State Party is required either to prosecute torturers who are found in its territory or to extradite them to other countries for prosecution," - Ronald Reagan's signing statement on the ratification of the UN Convention on Torture.
 
Here's a hypothetical for

you, Joe. Pick an answer from those presented

HYPOTHETICAL


In Turkey for a state visit, the President's security detail is attacked and killed/wounded to the extent that the President is taken captive - last seen uninjured but captive and alive - and taken away in vehicles which are soon found abandoned outside Ankara. Also taken is the military officer with the "football". Captured at or near the scene by American/Turkish security personnel is the leader of the group which carried out the attack. Taken into custody nearby is the intelligence chief of the organization which carried out the attack/capture. Both the intelligence chief and the military leader are Arabic speaking Iraqi Sunnis.

How do we extract from the captives, who likely know what the egress plans are and whence the attack came, information they certainly have which would lead our special forces personnel to the places necessary to rescue the President?

Should we reason with them over a nice dinner?

Implore them not to take actions offensive to the international diplomatic community carefully not mentioning their religion and nationality?

Offer them a handsome ransom in American dollars for the safe return of our President and the officer?

Indict the offenders for workplace violence and set Interpol hard upon their trail arrest warrants in hand?

Do whatever it takes to extract information from them immediately and then take action using the information?
HYPOTHETICAL

You pick 'em, Joe.
 
You continue the childish response of name calling

Wonder what that's all about Ladoga? Issues?
 
If I held

your position, I'd avoid further discussion just as you are doing.

I said NO and said WHY. You ran away.

Got a nice question for you above. Give it a try if you dare.
This post was edited on 12/10 10:21 AM by Ladoga
 
Obviously you watch WAY too much

television and movies. In your scenario I would bet the President (played by Harrison Ford) would kick a little ass and escape from his captures to return to the USA completely unharmed.
3dgrin.r191677.gif
 
Played your game Ladoga

It was fun. How are you with romantic comedies and historical dramas? I know some producers in LA. Maybe I could introduce you. Should I refer to you as Ladoga or one of your many previous names?
 
Avoidance

of opportunities to express your true position is unbecoming the guy who started the thread assuming America is the bad guy here.
 
Funny you use that

One of the American interrogators extracting information from Japanese POWs used steak dinners. He said once they realized he wasn't going to torture and kill them they opened right up.

The Germans had a corporal who was very adept at getting information from allied flyers. He would eventually be given VIP prisoners because his techniques were so good. Think about this, with the Gestapo at their resources the Germans use a corporal who does not use violence? Maybe that explains why they lost the war, or maybe they discovered the Gestapo wasn't universally successful.

This link details Scharff and Moran (an American who used similar techniques on Japanese soldiers). One might argue that soft Americans were easy pickings for Scharff. But Moran dealt with Japanese soldiers who believed dying for the Emperor was a free ticket to heaven. Does that remind anyone of a modern group we might be fighting?

Now, we don't KNOW what method works best and when. I don't know if anyone has ever devised a double-blind study. It may be there are times kicking the snot out works better, and others the other method works. I just don't know. But I don't think anyone else KNOWS either. If beating someone always worked, why didn't the Germans turn every VIP over to the Gestapo?

Jack Bauer makes it appear torture always works and works immediately. I'm not sure that has been proven true or false.
 
Sometimes our government does

bad things Ladoga. I think you can agree with that. We disagree on what's appropriate here. That's all.

Just because I make fun of your desire to play with little toy soldiers in your basement doesn't mean I avoid the debate. You just creep me out a bit.
eek.r191677.gif
 
Here's a much better

response than I could come up with. I think Andrew Sullivan makes some good points. Don't you agree?

Sullivan
 
Oversimplification 102

please explain how you've been paying attention and I haven't been.

The Metallica reference is to the fact that we (meaning we including I) had to participate in raids early in our efforts there where some oversimplifying bozos thought that it's a good idea to play Metallica at peak volume. Some oversimplifying bozos never considered cause and effect, much like you're obviously not doing, when tormenting the people of neighborhoods with loud, foreign music. Further, per Esquire, Metallica specifically asked that the U.S. Not play their music whilst torturing detainees.

Torture lowers our moral position of superiority and blurs the lines between who is on the side of right. Furthermore, please explain how those of us who care about human rights are lumped into your category of "liberals?" Since when did human rights become liberal versus something on which we could all agree? Try for once to think about an end state to this conflict and then realize how badly torturing detainees pushes such an endgame further out of reach.

Metallica, you liberal weenies
 
This topic came up at today's News Talk...

...session. News Talk (current events) is just one segment of a weekly gathering of folks over the age of 55.

The general consensus was that the CIA conducts all kinds of activities including torture about which we the citizens have no knowledge. Furthermore we can only hope these activities aren't counter productive. Finally, in spite of this Senate report, nothing will change as the clandestine activities will continue unabated.
 
Yes, irontreegreenladogabossierhighway's post is another childish tantrum

That said, Bob Kerry makes some interesting points…particularly about the lack of recommendations. I don't agree with him that we should necessarily follow the lead of Senator McCain, but I do think a report without recommendations seems like a partisan political ploy.

THAT said, there is still some disturbing info in the report that we should look at and think about.
 
I don't want to be ISIS OR France...I want to be the United States

And the United States is better than a lot of what's in that report.

Don't be distracted by someone comparing us to ISIS. WE aren't THEM is irrelevant. Focus on us living up to the aspirational values that make our nation special. That's how we win.
 
Thanks for the Metallica insights

I don't remember hearing about that previously.

And always good to see you back on the boards from time to time. Who knew you went out and became a liberal after all these years? :>)
 
I agree with a lot of that

It is disappointing that this report was handled in a partisan manner with no recommendations. It does require us to read the minority report as well as the CIA response to get a fuller understanding. I'm glad that you seem willing to seek that fuller understanding (and that folks like Ranger are seeking that as well.) We need to examine the information revealed in all of the reports and try to be better in our intelligence organizations.

Unfortunately, too many people seem content to throw it all out and bury their head in the sand because this is "just a partisan report."
 
Not up to defending the nation?

I think that was YOUR side wasn't it? 9/11 ring a bell? Again, your ridiculousness at blaming one side or another always comes back to haunt you. Your side should have stood down forever if that is the way it really works. It does not and you know it. You just like to sound like Rush Limbaugh, Joe Scarborough, Glen Beck, and every other loon rolled into one.
 
I do agree that SOME

of Sullivan's points have merit.

I prefer, however, the position taken then by Krauthammer as mentioned in the article he wrote to which Sullivan referred.

Krauthammer argued, in the reference article, for full blown use or torture under carefully controlled circumstances.
 
Oh, he'd rather 'die' than give up a part of 'America"? News flash:

We've given up that part of 'Anerica' in every war we've ever been in. It's not until now that it's widely reported.

Enjoy your present liberties. They were paid for with some pretty unsavory actions by our ancestors. And thank God they did.

OK, is this the point where you reply with a few examples of information freely given and use that as a blanket example of all interrogations?
Posted from Rivals Mobile
 
You paraphrase Obama

on the United States is better statement. He said that very thing over and over referring to enhanced interview techniques, attacks on Al Qaeda leaders, closing Guantanamo. His words encourage the partisan report and politically motived charges now in the press. Lefists here join him in those remarks.

However, those very same leftists have yet to utter one word of criticism on the current administration.

Bush - the reason for the attacks is the left's hatred for Bush - had enhanced interrogation techniques of known terrorists which at least elicited actionable information that saved American lives. Meanwhile not a word of criticism of Obama's increased use of hellfire missiles from drones to kill possible terrorists and their families including children. Its goes on daily and at an ever increasing pace, but not a single utterance of condemnation from the left now that their guy is the triggerman.

One wonders how partisan these folks can get and then they refuse to condemn Obama's killing of innocent civilians.
 
Wow! We're getting somewhere Ladoga!

Take a read through the post today by Sullivan where he addresses Krauthammer's position back in the day.

I'm interested in reading your thoughts about what Krauthammer was arguing for then and what we now know actually happened. The torture was conducted in a scenario that had nothing to do with a ticking time bomb. There was certainly no carefully controlled circumstances. We tortured people who were captured by mistake. We employed two doctors to lead the torture that had no previous experience with interrogation or intelligence work.

Thoughts?

Sullivan today
 
You only mention the partisan stuff because that's all you care about

I'm focused upon having our intelligence services effective and living up to our nation's values, so let's fully consider how we have operated under all Presidents. Being focused on who was President when something happened prevents you from making improvements.

Meanwhile, it's hilarious that you kvetch wondering "how partisan these folks can get" when partisan is all you do.
 
Obama gets criticized often

by people on the left for the drone killings. Especially in terms of how the strategy can be used as a recruiting tool for groups like ISIS and Al Qaeda.

I wish he would go much farther than he has in condemning those who authorized the torture. I am happy that he has strongly denounced torture and put an end to the practice. I would like to see Guantanamo closed. I would like a stop to the forced feeding of current prisoners at Guantanamo. That's on Obama.

I also understand that the recently agreed upon spending bill in Congress has language that prohibits any use of funds for purposes of torture.

One step forward...
 
I read Sullivan today

and Krauthammer then, among many others at that time.

I didn't need them to tell me what I have long believed.

I favor the use of techniques that the left calls torture.

If we need to do, do it.

I've said here for 10 years that we should do whatever it takes to get information from terrorists. Then take the information and use it if possible to kill people who would kill Americans.

That's too rough for some to hear. So be it.


"War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse. The person who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself."
John Stuart Mill
English economist & philosopher (1806 - 1873)
 
Does he now?

Then perhaps you'd be good enough to link any post written here by a leftist condemning Obama's drone killings?

Any? You couldn't even bring yourself to condemn him in a post about what he's doing.

For my part, I'll stick with supporting anything it takes to kill those who would kill Americans anywhere.
 
Well, at least you own it.

You got that going for ya!

Might as well stand up and call it was it is though.
 
You know how to use google.

I don't need to do your work for you, do I? I also listed my criticism. Guess you missed it. Or chose not to see it.
 
Tons of words

that all add up to saying nothing. Zero point zero.
 
I've supported what we did

for more than 10 years and still do. I said so right here. I'd support more if necessary.

Its war. You win. Nothing less will do.
 
In fewer words, then


the people who condemn Bush for taking actions which were legal when done do not condemn Obama for killing women and children with hellfire missiles in drone attacks.


Is that straight enough?
 
More Democrats against drone attacks...

...as a percentage than Republicans according to this PEW poll.

2-11-13-2-1.png
 
our troops have so much more to look forward to in the next war...

because these findings have a trickle down effect... I think most troops will now choose death over capture in the next war... because somebody's going to be wanting a little payback... and now that these findings have reared their ugly head... it's time to pay the piper... losing your humanity has to be one of the worst things anyone can do during a lifetime...
 
Yeah...because prisoners were NEVER mistreated before Feinstein's

revenge report hit the internet..

This post was edited on 12/11 1:07 PM by Mas-sa-suta
 
A very good friend of mine has a story to tell.

He was drafted in 43. The darft biard held them back because they played football for Bowling Green High and wanted them to play against Russelville. They won the game and he ended up in the 82nd after D-day. He jumped into a "Bridge too Far" and was captured on day 6. He had a map and was spared the fate of his six battle buddies who were shot. These critics never serverd.
 
My granfather say many stories about GIs

He fight the krauts and he and I thankful for Americans. This report no news in Europe. We follow American news all the time. To us just usually politics.

I can be thankful and think Americans fight too many wars. We get more terrorist bombs than Americans but not freak out so much. You blow up balloon and let it sit in the sun, the air goes out by its self. Terrorists comes and goes in Europe for long time. Nothing new. Americans fight and fight and fight and just blow up balloon bigger and bigger.

Maybe.
 
Re: Perspective

Your comments: Barack Obama unleashed hellfire missiles from silent drones in areas far removed from active battlefields under circumstances putting unknown numbers of non-combatants at the risk of injury and death for no reason other than being near an individual target. Obama has been awarded the Nobel Peace Prize and no doubt believes he should have a monument to himself on the National Mall.

Now we have a handful of CIA operatives, who believing they are in good faith serving their country, water-board and deprive of sleep three--as in THREE-- people who are not US citizens but combatants who assisted in the killing of thousands of innocent civilians. Now the Democrats have a national hissy fit about that.

So true. Many in congress having the hissy fits were routinely briefed on the interrogations on many occassions. I read one report today that a total of 68 or more members of congress were briefed thru the years and in fact encouraged the CIA to do whatever it takes essentially. Feinstein was one that was briefed numerous times also as was Pelosi. Three former CIA Chiefs and three deputy chiefs put out a statement that the report was basically a partisan hack job and info was cherry picked to point it in the direction that they wanted it to and that valuable info was obtained using enhanced interrogations saving many American lives. Hell Brennan even came out today saying basically the same thing. He changed his tone somewhat from previous statements. His arse is probably on the line now for doing so.

Our drone policy has routinely killed innocents including women and children and by the hundreds in total and those most vocal about the interrogations are almost silent on the drones and suggest its just a part of the ugliness of war. Drone targets have included American citizens on three occasions. One reason for such an active drone policy in the past is simply to kill the terrorist as opposed to capture, detainment, and questioning as once given their rights they clam up. And rendetions still existed under Obama and have been documented. They were used prior to formal policies of detention and briefing them on their rights as the left screams about their rights. Depriving one of these terrorist savages of sleep or putting him in a small cell like our maximum security prisons is inhumane and is torture. Lying to them and creating stressful situations for them is torture. But zapping them from the sky from a controller hundreds or even thousands of miles away and taking out numerous innocents who happened to be in the vicinity and yes even children at school and leaving bloody pulps of human parts lying all over the place is simply the ugly side of war and not worthy of a national debate as is torture.

Those screaming so loud about our so called torture should visit some of our prisons and especially maximum security ones with very small cells, isolation 23 hours daily and the like. Treating terrorist like this would be an outrage. No one even talks about this topic but treating terrorist in such a fashion is a 24 hours a day news cycle.



This post was edited on 12/11 12:03 AM by Cajun54
 
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