Would someone explain the science behind this?

[CO. Hoosier]

A fully vaccinated person needs additional protection from unvaccinated people.

To ask this question a different way: Is a breakthrough infection due to individual susceptibility to infection notwithstanding vaccinated status, or is it due to the unvaccinated community placing all vaccinated individuals at higher risk?

The data about breakthroughs show a clustering around older people and those with pre-existing conditions. So that suggests the former. While I am in favor of all being vaccinated, I don’t know if an unvaccinated person near me presents a high risk or not. I don’t know the strength of my Deflector Shield.

Without pretty clear science, it seems to me vaccine mandates are more emotion than science.

 

[Cortez88]

A fully vaccinated person needs additional protection from unvaccinated people.

To ask this question a different way: Is a breakthrough infection due to individual susceptibility to infection notwithstanding vaccinated status, or is it due to the unvaccinated community placing all vaccinated individuals at higher risk?

The data about breakthroughs shows a clustering around older people and those with pre-existing conditions. So that suggests the former. While I am in favor of all being vaccinated, I don’t know if an unvaccinated person near me presents a high risk or not. I don’t know the strength of my Deflector Shield.

Without pretty clear science, it seems to me vaccine mandates are more emotion than science.

Your last paragraph is very divergent from the question you are posing.

 

[CO. Hoosier]

Your last paragraph is very divergent from the question you are posing.

How so? If there is no clear data about need for a vaccinated person to have additional protection from unvaccinated people, then what is the justification for a mandate?

 

[Univee2]

How so? If there is no clear data about need for a vaccinated person to have additional protection from unvaccinated people, then what is the justification for a mandate?

It's to give OSHA more to do.

And, having had to deal with some of the OSHA idiots over the years, my advice is to run for the hills.

 

[CO. Hoosier]

It's to give OSHA more to do.

And, having had to deal with some of the OSHA idiots over the years, my advice is to run for the hills.

Except for one case of elevated CO levels in a dealership service department, all the OSHA matters I was involved with were about paperwork and bureaucratic record keeping. The record keeping about this mandate will be horrendous. I think OSHA has better things to do than fool around with that.

 

[Cortez88]

How so? If there is no clear data about need for a vaccinated person to have additional protection from unvaccinated people, then what is the justification for a mandate?

Wouldn’t the mandate protect the unvaccinated from their unvaccinated cohorts? Also, while breakthrough infection do appear rare, they are happening. The unvaccinated do present at least some threat to the vaccinated and in that scenario it appears reasonable for employers, colleges, etc to enact these mandates.

 

[CO. Hoosier]

Wouldn’t the mandate protect the unvaccinated from their unvaccinated cohorts? Also, while breakthrough infection do appear rare, they are happening. The unvaccinated do present at least some threat to the vaccinated and in that scenario it appears reasonable for employers, colleges, etc to enact these mandates.

I understand all of that. But the question I’m asking is the justification President Biden offered yesterday when he said the vaccinated need more protection from the unvaccinated. He also said he understands the anger vaccinated people have about unvaccinated people. He also said his patience with unvaccinated people is wearing thin. Taking those three points together suggests to me that he is not following science but his emotions and he is very unpersuasive.

Notwithstanding, if there is science that shows vaccine mandates will materially increase the effectiveness of the immunity my vaccine gives me, I’d like to read it.

 

[stollcpa]

'Hypocrisy': Border Patrol agents forced to get vaccine

A Border Patrol union leader called forcing agents to get vaccinated a “hypocrisy” after President Joe Biden announced policies Thursday requiring most federal employees to get COVID-19 vaccination…

www.newsnationnow.com

 

[HillzHoozier]

I don't need a scientific study to know if I've stepped in horseshit. The smell gives it away.

 

[Marvin the Martian]

I understand all of that. But the question I’m asking is the justification President Biden offered yesterday when he said the vaccinated need more protection from the unvaccinated. He also said he understands the anger vaccinated people have about unvaccinated people. He also said his patience with unvaccinated people is wearing thin. Taking those three points together suggests to me that he is not following science but his emotions and he is very unpersuasive.

Notwithstanding, if there is science that shows vaccine mandates will materially increase the effectiveness of the immunity my vaccine gives me, I’d like to read it.

Isn't there simple math here, if you never meet an infected person you will never get covid. If you sit in a tightly packed auditorium and all 2000 others have covid you have more risk. If vaccines lower the number of infected people you are around, you will have less chance of contracting covid.

 

[CO. Hoosier]

Isn't there simple math here, if you never meet an infected person you will never get covid. If you sit in a tightly packed auditorium and all 2000 others have covid you have more risk. If vaccines lower the number of infected people you are around, you will have less chance of contracting covid.

That’s all true. I’ll stipulate that 100% vaccines will lower everyone’s risk. I’m not so sure taking risk from say, 1% to .5% (for example) should justify a mandate. But there is also this. Do you think it is a coincidence that only Pfizer has full FDA approval?

 

[Marvin the Martian]

That’s all true. I’ll stipulate that 100% vaccines will lower everyone’s risk. I’m not so sure taking risk from say, 1% to .5% (for example) should justify a mandate. But there is also this. Do you think it is a coincidence that only Pfizer has full FDA approval?

Nope. Paranoia strikes deep, into your life it will creep. Pfizer submitted it's data 97 days ahead of Moderna. Did the government donations do that?

Moderna completes submission for full FDA approval of Covid-19 vaccine; Pfizer seeks approval for booster dose

Moderna announced on Wednesday it has completed its submission to the US Food and Drug Administration for full approval of its Covid-19 vaccine for people age 18 and older, and Pfizer and BioNTech announced they have begun submitting data for full FDA approval of a third dose of their vaccine.

www.google.com

 

[UncleMark]

That’s all true. I’ll stipulate that 100% vaccines will lower everyone’s risk. I’m not so sure taking risk from say, 1% to .5% (for example) should justify a mandate. But there is also this. Do you think it is a coincidence that only Pfizer has full FDA approval?

That's doubling the risk.

 

[mushroomgod_1]

How so? If there is no clear data about need for a vaccinated person to have additional protection from unvaccinated people, then what is the justification for a mandate?

To your point, Biden said this: "In fact, recent date indicates there is only one confirmed covid case for every 5000 fully vaccinated Americans per day".

 

[Univee2]

A fully vaccinated person needs additional protection from unvaccinated people.

To ask this question a different way: Is a breakthrough infection due to individual susceptibility to infection notwithstanding vaccinated status, or is it due to the unvaccinated community placing all vaccinated individuals at higher risk?

The data about breakthroughs show a clustering around older people and those with pre-existing conditions. So that suggests the former. While I am in favor of all being vaccinated, I don’t know if an unvaccinated person near me presents a high risk or not. I don’t know the strength of my Deflector Shield.

Without pretty clear science, it seems to me vaccine mandates are more emotion than science.

How about mandating illegal aliens be vaccinated before being welcomed with open arms by Joe?

 

[CO. Hoosier]

That's doubling the risk.

that’s outside shooter thinking. Doubling a tiny number doesn’t mean much.

 

[CO. Hoosier]

Nope. Paranoia strikes deep, into your life it will creep. Pfizer submitted it's data 97 days ahead of Moderna. Did the government donations do that?

Moderna completes submission for full FDA approval of Covid-19 vaccine; Pfizer seeks approval for booster dose

Moderna announced on Wednesday it has completed its submission to the US Food and Drug Administration for full approval of its Covid-19 vaccine for people age 18 and older, and Pfizer and BioNTech announced they have begun submitting data for full FDA approval of a third dose of their vaccine.

www.google.com

Paranoia? Lol. Billions of dollars are made from vaccines. Biden’s failure to acknowledge or even mention the natural immunity alternative to vaccine is also probably not a coincidence.

 

[CO. Hoosier]

How about mandating illegal aliens be vaccinated before being welcomed with open arms by Joe?

Hard to take anything Biden says about COVID seriously when he releases COVID positive people to the state of Texas to deal with and his mask nonsense is so obviously theater.

 

[Marvin the Martian]

Paranoia? Lol. Billions of dollars are made from vaccines. Biden’s failure to acknowledge or even mention the natural immunity alternative to vaccine is also probably not a coincidence.

Same for measles, mumps, chickenpox, tetanus, all just profit makers. So are antibacterial medicines, just scams. We cannot trust these corporations, we need leaches and snake oil back.

 

[HooDatGuy]

It's to give OSHA more to do.

And, having had to deal with some of the OSHA idiots over the years, my advice is to run for the hills.

OSHA handing out vaccine mandates and the CDC handing down rent moratoriums.

Does anyone think our administrative state may be just a tad bit too large?

 

[anon_6hv78pr714xta]

A fully vaccinated person needs additional protection from unvaccinated people.

To ask this question a different way: Is a breakthrough infection due to individual susceptibility to infection notwithstanding vaccinated status, or is it due to the unvaccinated community placing all vaccinated individuals at higher risk?

The data about breakthroughs show a clustering around older people and those with pre-existing conditions. So that suggests the former. While I am in favor of all being vaccinated, I don’t know if an unvaccinated person near me presents a high risk or not. I don’t know the strength of my Deflector Shield.

Without pretty clear science, it seems to me vaccine mandates are more emotion than science.

I think you've set up a false dichotomy here with your question. The answer to both is yes and they are not mutually exclusive.

As you've admitted to Marv, because vaccines like this are not 100% perfect in eliminating the possibility of getting COVID, the more that get the vaccine, the lower in the risk to each individual, EVEN IF some vaccinated individual's risk is higher due to individual factors.

But as you've later noted, we can argue about what % chance is safe enough or what amount of evidence we might want in order to issue a mandate.

 

[CO. Hoosier]

Same for measles, mumps, chickenpox, tetanus, all just profit makers. So are antibacterial medicines, just scams. We cannot trust these corporations, we need leaches and snake oil back.

WTF are you talking about now? I never mentioned or implied a scam regarding the vaccine. I never said or implied that these corporations should not be trusted. I am questioning the motivations behind Biden’s mandate justification that vaccinated people need additional protection, that they should be angry with those who are not vaccinated, and that his patience is wearing thin. Biden has been in the senate almost since God created dirt. His record on banking and credit issues shows he knows very well how to take care of his supporters. His all-in approach to vaccine while ignoring natural immunity is a tell.

 

[CO. Hoosier]

I think you've set up a false dichotomy here with your question. The answer to both is yes and they are not mutually exclusive.

As you've admitted to Marv, because vaccines like this are not 100% perfect in eliminating the possibility of getting COVID, the more that get the vaccine, the lower in the risk to each individual, EVEN IF some vaccinated individual's risk is higher due to individual factors.

But as you've later noted, we can argue about what % chance is safe enough or what amount of evidence we might want in order to issue a mandate.

We also know that breakthrough infections are almost always very mild and that they are effectively an immune booster. That’s science. Biden ignored it.

Your last paragraph is the whole point. The “if it saves one life“ argument has never been a good argument. It’s way to simplistic and ignores substantial policy factors. I think that is the argument you offer.

 

[IU_Hickory]

How much does it cost our healthcare system for a covid patient to be admitted to the hospital? When you see that 97% of covid hospitalizations are unvaccinated then you can figure out how much of a burden that the unvaccinated are placing on our healthcare system. Then you have places that are running out of beds and people without covid are dying because they can't get care for other medical conditions.

Vaccinated people can still get infected but they are 4x less likely to have that breakthrough infection. If everyone was vaccinated then there would be less spread and less likely for that breakthrough infection to come about because less people would be going around with covid.

instead of one person infecting 8 people, they would only be infecting 2 people.

Even if vaccinated people were fully immune, a lot may have kids under 12 that they still care about and want to keep safe.

 

[baileyiu]

that’s outside shooter thinking. Doubling a tiny number doesn’t mean much.

Unless YOU are one of those tiny numbers

 

[IU_Hickory]

Unless YOU are one of those tiny numbers

I hate that people only seem to care about % of people that die from covid. There are people that live and now are living with long term complications.

It's also ignoring the amount of people dying from non-covid issues because the beds are all being taken up by anti-vaxers with covid.

 

[mushroomgod_1]

I hate that people only seem to care about % of people that die from covid. There are people that live and now are living with long term complications.

It's also ignoring the amount of people dying from non-covid issues because the beds are all being taken up by anti-vaxers with covid.

You must really hate an administration that knowingly allows hundreds of thousands of unvaxed aliens, some with COVID, into the country, for political reasons.

You're all for cracking down on people that have natural immunity and already enjoy 8-10x the protection afforded by the vaccine, but you say nothing about Biden letting in a million people a year, almost all unvaxed, perhaps 100000 with covid. How many deaths have resulted from that? Is that the origin of the one/more of the "variants"?

 

[mushroomgod_1]

How much does it cost our healthcare system for a covid patient to be admitted to the hospital? When you see that 97% of covid hospitalizations are unvaccinated then you can figure out how much of a burden that the unvaccinated are placing on our healthcare system. Then you have places that are running out of beds and people without covid are dying because they can't get care for other medical conditions.

Vaccinated people can still get infected but they are 4x less likely to have that breakthrough infection. If everyone was vaccinated then there would be less spread and less likely for that breakthrough infection to come about because less people would be going around with covid.

instead of one person infecting 8 people, they would only be infecting 2 people.

Even if vaccinated people were fully immune, a lot may have kids under 12 that they still care about and want to keep safe.

We're told they still have the virus, and can infect others with it, but they themselves are less likely to become ill, be hospitalized, or die.

 

[UncleMark]

That's doubling the risk.

that’s outside shooter thinking. Doubling a tiny number doesn’t mean much.

It's a 100% increase. That's signficant enough to be worth addressing.

 

[mushroomgod_1]

I think you've set up a false dichotomy here with your question. The answer to both is yes and they are not mutually exclusive.

As you've admitted to Marv, because vaccines like this are not 100% perfect in eliminating the possibility of getting COVID, the more that get the vaccine, the lower in the risk to each individual, EVEN IF some vaccinated individual's risk is higher due to individual factors.

But as you've later noted, we can argue about what % chance is safe enough or what amount of evidence we might want in order to issue a mandate.

The Feds can't legally mandate non-federal employees to be vaxed regardless of the "evidence".

 

[jet812]

Same for measles, mumps, chickenpox, tetanus, all just profit makers. So are antibacterial medicines, just scams. We cannot trust these corporations, we need leaches and snake oil back.

Those have been proven to work long term…

 

[Marvin the Martian]

Those have been proven to work long term…

And with no known drawbacks, right? No one has ever died of measles. And our bodies can fight infections, why the hell does big pharma push antibiotics? We should start a campaign against them.

Smallpox and polio were not real. Just a myth for the UN to inject mind control substances produced, for profit, by big pharma.

 

[jet812]

And with no known drawbacks, right? No one has ever died of measles. And our bodies can fight infections, why the hell does big pharma push antibiotics? We should start a campaign against them.

Smallpox and polio were not real. Just a myth for the UN to inject mind control substances produced, for profit, by big pharma.

Somebody let Marv know that Hickory hacked his account….

 

[CO. Hoosier]

How much does it cost our healthcare system for a covid patient to be admitted to the hospital? When you see that 97% of covid hospitalizations are unvaccinated then you can figure out how much of a burden that the unvaccinated are placing on our healthcare system. Then you have places that are running out of beds and people without covid are dying because they can't get care for other medical conditions.

Vaccinated people can still get infected but they are 4x less likely to have that breakthrough infection. If everyone was vaccinated then there would be less spread and less likely for that breakthrough infection to come about because less people would be going around with covid.

instead of one person infecting 8 people, they would only be infecting 2 people.

Even if vaccinated people were fully immune, a lot may have kids under 12 that they still care about and want to keep safe.

This is a worthwhile argument and should have been the entire Biden message yesterday. The argument that vaccinated people need more protection lacks credibility. The demo with the lowest vaccination rate are POC. Biden never mentioned that. Instead he chose to bitch at the GOP and talk about anger at the unvaxxed. The guy is a total dufus on his best day. He damaged the case for more vaccines maybe irreparably. That hurts all of us.

The best thing Biden could do now is invite Trump to stand on a stage with him and have both join in an honest and forthright appeal to be vaccinated.

 

[outside shooter]

This isn't all that hard.

A fully vaccinated person is partially protected from infection (~55%), from symptomatic disease (~75%), from hospitalization (~92%), and from death (>96%). The percentages given are for the Pfizer vaccine. I don't have the reference right now, but it comes directly from Pfizer.

So lets say that I'm 55% protected from infection, right now.

Do you think that I am still going to be 55% protected, if the amount of infected, unvaccinated people that I encounter DOUBLES?

Of course not. Effectiveness will go down in that case.

Do you think that I am still going to be 55% protected, if the amount of infected, unvaccinated people that I encounter IS CUT IN HALF?

Of course not. Effectiveness will go UP in that case.

So what you do or do not do affects me, even though I am vaccinated.

 

[T.M.P.]

I don't need a scientific study to know if I've stepped in horseshit. The smell gives it away.

That's your breath ...

please, wear a mask.

 

[outside shooter]

 

[HillzHoozier]

This isn't all that hard.

A fully vaccinated person is partially protected from infection (~55%), from symptomatic disease (~75%), from hospitalization (~92%), and from death (>96%). The percentages given are for the Pfizer vaccine. I don't have the reference right now, but it comes directly from Pfizer.

So lets say that I'm 55% protected from infection, right now.

Do you think that I am still going to be 55% protected, if the amount of infected, unvaccinated people that I encounter DOUBLES?

Of course not. Effectiveness will go down in that case.

Do you think that I am still going to be 55% protected, if the amount of infected, unvaccinated people that I encounter IS CUT IN HALF?

Of course not. Effectiveness will go UP in that case.

So what you do or do not do affects me, even though I am vaccinated.

At 92% protection from hospitalization and better than 96% protection from death, why does a vaccinated person need to be so concerned? Why don't you just wear 2, 3 or more masks and leave others alone?

 

[Marvin the Martian]

Somebody let Marv know that Hickory hacked his account….

I don't know why antivaxx has gone mainstream. We cannot trust scientists, nobody would try to prevent a disease. It must only be for money. And this from people who call themselves conservatives, the people who once championed free enterprise. Suddenly everyone on the right sounds like Winners, except with capital letters.

We could nationalize pharma and make sure not a penny is made off of covid or any other other disease, would that help?

Washington made the continental army get smallpox vaccine, such as it was in those days (varialation I think it was called). George Washington, a hater of liberty and in the clutches of big pharma.

For CO, we both agree we need nuclear power. But how do we know nuclear power companies making campaign contributions would make it safely?

 

[Marvin the Martian]

The best thing Biden could do now is invite Trump to stand on a stage with him and have both join in an honest and forthright appeal to be vaccinated.

I would approve of that, but when the other presidents got their shots they did so in public to try and boost support. Trump refused. Would he do this now?