Woody's Hockey Line Substitution

[Pryght]

...the damning reality that Woody needs to accept.

Net rating is (points scored - points allowed) per 100 possessions.

Starting 5: Net rating of +20, 65th percentile
Cupps/XJ/Gallo/Reneau/Ware: +59.3, 92nd percentile
Cupps/Gallo/Mgbako/Reneau/Ware: +15.4, 60th percentile
XJ/Gallo/Banks/Reneau/Ware: +51.2, 89th percentile
Cupps/Gunn/Walker/Banks/Sparks (2nd unit): -46.8, 6th percentile

 

[ams66]

Just looking at those lineups it seems like no surprise.

I can't say I've gone back and verified it but it seems like he doesn't let the "second unit" dig deep holes as much or for as long as before. Or maybe this year's "second unit" is better than last year's. But Reneau/Ware cannot play 40 minutes if you want them strong at the end of the game.

 

[Bucket Getter]

Just looking at those lineups it seems like no surprise.

I can't say I've gone back and verified it but it seems like he doesn't let the "second unit" dig deep holes as much or for as long as before. Or maybe this year's "second unit" is better than last year's. But Reneau/Ware cannot play 40 minutes if you want them strong at the end of the game.

Seems like it ought to be pretty simple without having them both on the bench at the same time and getting your brains beat in like those numbers indicate with an all-second unit.

 

[Victorbmyboy]

How many times recently has he done the whole second unit sub?

 

[ams66]

Seems like it ought to be pretty simple without having them both on the bench at the same time and getting your brains beat in like those numbers indicate with an all-second unit.

Yeah probably. I was just reacting to those lineups, all of which had both Reneau and Ware except the last one. How badly do the numbers drop if one of those two is sitting?

 

[GThomas]

But Reneau/Ware cannot play 40 minutes if you want them strong at the end of the game.

True, but at least one needs to be on the court at all times.

 

[MrBing]

...the damning reality that Woody needs to accept.

Net rating is (points scored - points allowed) per 100 possessions.

Starting 5: Net rating of +20, 65th percentile
Cupps/XJ/Gallo/Reneau/Ware: +59.3, 92nd percentile
Cupps/Gallo/Mgbako/Reneau/Ware: +15.4, 60th percentile
XJ/Gallo/Banks/Reneau/Ware: +51.2, 89th percentile
Cupps/Gunn/Walker/Banks/Sparks (2nd unit): -46.8, 6th percentile

View embedded media

IU really was in no danger of losing these early games except for UCONN and maybe Louisville. Coach is trying different combinations and getting players playing time when he can so he knows what players and combination of players are more likely to work in tougher games. I'm enjoy the experimentation.

 

[RegionHoosiers]

I assume he's using the early games to get people playing time and to experiment. But I also wonder if he's approaching this like an 82 game NBA season in terms of keeping people fresh. College teams shouldn't get as worn out from a shorter bench I would think.

 

[IUNorth]

Its just completely unnecessary in college basketball. I hope he's just tinkering since its early in the season. He didn't really do it much at all last year after the first few games. But he did it, a lot, through his entire first season at IU.

Early in the season to see how kids play with each other...I still think its unnecessary...but not a huge deal.

If he keeps doing it all year long, like he did year 1...not good.

I think Woody has an obvious stubbornness to his approach. Its coming out with how he answered questions about perimeter shooting. And if he were to go back to regularly employing the "2nd Unit" approach again...that'd be another one. Its much more necessary, and effective, in the NBA because they're playing 82, 48 minute games, often with games coming on back to back nights. Also, every single player on an NBA roster was an All American type college player.

30 years coaching a certain way, can make a person stubborn. But he didn't do it last year much, so hopefully he's just feeling the team out right now. Obviously we're not a well oiled machine at this point.

 

[MrBing]

Its just completely unnecessary in college basketball. I hope he's just tinkering since its early in the season. He didn't really do it much at all last year after the first few games. But he did it, a lot, through his entire first season at IU.

Early in the season to see how kids play with each other...I still think its unnecessary...but not a huge deal.

If he keeps doing it all year long, like he did year 1...not good.

I think Woody has an obvious stubbornness to his approach. Its coming out with how he answered questions about perimeter shooting. And if he were to go back to regularly employing the "2nd Unit" approach again...that'd be another one. Its much more necessary, and effective, in the NBA because they're playing 82, 48 minute games, often with games coming on back to back nights. Also, every single player on an NBA roster was an All American type college player.

30 years coaching a certain way, can make a person stubborn. But he didn't do it last year much, so hopefully he's just feeling the team out right now. Obviously we're not a well oiled machine at this point.

I watch a lot of the high ranking basketball teams and it's common for the coaches to experiment with different mixes of players early in the season. Especially in games they probably aren't going to lose. They usually settle on 7 to 9 players they'll use almost exclusively as the season goes on. I think the early season experimentation is very interesting. Sometimes unexpected stars emerge. I think it's great.

 

[IUNorth]

I watch a lot of the high ranking basketball teams and it's common for the coaches to experiment with different mixes of players early in the season. Especially in games they probably aren't going to lose. They usually settle on 7 to 9 players they'll use almost exclusively as the season goes on. I think the early season experimentation is very interesting. Sometimes unexpected stars emerge. I think it's great.

For sure...but very, very, very few of them play extended minutes when the game is undecided, with NONE of the starters on the floor.

The goal is to see how kids will play alongside each other....Ware, and Reneau, and a healthy X...are going to be on the floor when it matters (or likely will be)...it does little good to see what all the other guys will do without any of those guys on the floor.

When the game is still undecided, barring injury or major foul trouble, we should NEVER look out on the floor and see none of those 3 guys I mentioned above on the floor.

 

[MrBing]

For sure...but very, very, very few of them play extended minutes when the game is undecided, with NONE of the starters on the floor.

The goal is to see how kids will play alongside each other....Ware, and Reneau, and a healthy X...are going to be on the floor when it matters (or likely will be)...it does little good to see what all the other guys will do without any of those guys on the floor.

When the game is still undecided, barring injury or major foul trouble, we should NEVER look out on the floor and see none of those 3 guys I mentioned above on the floor.

I've seen several games when none of the starters were on the floor. I don't think it's that uncommon. Yes, all teams usually end up having 1 to 3 starters on the floor as the game goes on or if it's getting too close for comfort. Early season against weaker competition is when experimentation needs to happen. We're seeing some bright spots with our non-starters so far this year as this happens. For example Leal looked decent in the last game. It's a fun time of the season IMO.

 

[IUNorth]

I've seen several games when none of the starters were on the floor. I don't think it's that uncommon. Yes, all teams usually end up having 1 to 3 starters on the floor as the game goes on or if it's getting too close for comfort. Early season against weaker competition is when experimentation needs to happen. We're seeing some bright spots with our non-starters so far this year as this happens. For example Leal looked decent in the last game. It's a fun time of the season IMO.

I find it hard to believe you're seeing much, if any, of all 5 starters on the bench in close games.

X, Ware...3 bench players...cool.
Gallo, Ware, Reneau...2 bench players...cool.
X...4 bench players...ehhh...but at least Gabe and CJ are playing with X.
As examples of what many coaches do.

All 5 bench players, during a close game...nah.

 

[bawlmer]

i think people make too much of this. I don't recall this happening in our lone loss to UCONN. I get fans get nervous, but I can also see some value of taking advantage in a game against an inferior team to force guys to make something happen without deferring to the starters. I can't recall a game we lost due to all the starters sitting in the 1st half, but someone probably can.

 

[Aloha Hoosier]

I find it hard to believe you're seeing much, if any, of all 5 starters on the bench in close games.

X, Ware...3 bench players...cool.
Gallo, Ware, Reneau...2 bench players...cool.
X...4 bench players...ehhh...but at least Gabe and CJ are playing with X.
As examples of what many coaches do.

All 5 bench players, during a close game...nah.

He didn’t say anything about seeing it during close games. Why put words in his mouth?

 

[MrBing]

He didn’t say anything about seeing it during close games. Why put words in his mouth?

You're right. I didn't.

 

[IUNorth]

He didn’t say anything about seeing it during close games. Why put words in his mouth?

True...we're seeing it in close games though...and I would have thought that's the implied conversation.

Early season blowouts...obviously teams are playing all their bench guys. That's not a coach trying to figure out rotations for future games though...its rewarding the bench guys that don't often get to play, because the game is out of reach. And not all coaches do that even...Coach K was famous/notorious for keeping his main rotation guys in huge blowouts, until nearly the end of the game...as an example.

I suspect because he wanted to work through actual game like rotation combinations.

If that's not the conversation here, I apologize.

 

[ulrey]

6-1.

 

[rocketo]

True, but at least one needs to be on the court at all times.

Well, if one is in foul trouble, you’re going to have times when they are both out. It happens.