Pitino and the Louisville prostitution ring for Louisville players and Roy and North Carolina's academic fraud including UNC athletes taking fake classes to keep players eligible for a decade. Total lack of institutional control at Louisville and North Carolina.
Will Rick Pitino and 'ol Roy Williams programs get NCAA Sanctions?
- Thread starter ufo33
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Only had they committed a completely egregious act, something like say, sending too many text messages to recruits or the like, would they be in any trouble.
I cannot believe you are even asking this question. The answers are NO and NO. If you were not a cash cow school the hammer would come down on you hard but not for these guys. Both of them will retire as heroes to their programs. Roy Williams is just as slimy as Calipari.
Remember the line from Blue Chips when coach Bell says my players take real classes! Probably what good old boy Roy says on his recruiting visits followed by a wink wink.
VanPastorMan
Hall of Famer
No, but Cleveland State will pay dearly for what UNC and UL did!
If you are going to quote/paraphrase Jerry Tarkanian (below) you should give him direct credit for it.
I get a headache thinking about this on two levels.
1. On the NCAA level, Sampson was sanctioned for making too many phone calls and then not telling the "truth" about it (as though any of us could answer those questions purely from memory). What UNC appears to have done is far worse on the NCAA level from what I've read about it (i.e. loss of institutional control).
2. On the practical level, though, it seems to be a question of recruiting players and not really making sure they go to class (Sampson, probably) or recruiting players and letting them sign up for meaningless classes (UNC, probably).
As to No. 2, what's the practical difference? The more I learned about Sampson's program, I was glad we got rid of him, but I still wasn't that bothered by the assertion that he made too many phone calls. I didn't like the fact that several of Sampson's players had not really been going to class, completing assignments etc. Neither program in the pertinent years seems to have made sure the players were taking educational classes. So, I get a headache trying to figure out the difference.
I think there is a big difference.
In IU's case the kids were told to go to class, were signed up for legitimate classes and just didn't go. This falls on Sampson for a long leash and not demanding better from his athletes. It also falls on Sampson for not recruiting athletes with more integrity.
IU did know, to a degree, what they were getting in Sampson.
In UNC's case the University actually sponsored classes, or fake classes, that athletes could take just to remain eligible to play sports. And this went on for decades. UNC completely lost the student part of the student athlete. IMO this is far more serious.
I think Sampson was hammered more for lying to the NCAA, trying to cover it up, and attempting to have an assistant take the fall.
Eughhh ,.im not reading all these comments cuz I could care less about those schools over silly meticulous things but....
Louisville was already punished over hooker ordeal when they weren't allowed to play in tourney year before last...So I ask, what am I missing?
Louisville was already punished over hooker ordeal when they weren't allowed to play in tourney year before last...So I ask, what am I missing?
Did they self report or do the investigation for the NCAA? There is the difference. IU self-reported, self-punished (no the punishment wasn't handed out by the NCAA. It came from IU, and that is why it was so harsh....though I guess we will never know what their punishment would've been and hiring Sampson under sanctions already was a horrible idea. Thanks Greenspan!), and gave the NCAA everything they needed. Take an example from UK and Calipari, if you want to get away with everything. Don't cooperate, don't self-punish, threaten lawsuits and leaving the NCAA, and deny, deny, deny.....scapegoats are always great, too. I hope IU doesn't ever do crap like that, but just look at all the power programs that have been caught doing this ****. It's just following the blueprint and lawyering up. The NCAA doesn't have any real investigative power unless it becomes a legal issue (meaning through the courts).
That was all on Adam Herbert.
Here's some old school advice -- deny deny deny:
You young guys think you're on to something new.
I'd be shocked if either program gets more than a slap on the wrist.
Old Roy acts like UNC has done nothing wrong. The rich get richer. The NCAA targets the non cash cows. You mentioned Cleveland ST. Look out UNC Ashville!
Old Roy acts like UNC has done nothing wrong. The rich get richer. The NCAA targets the non cash cows. You mentioned Cleveland ST. Look out UNC Ashville!
Ol' Roy had plenty of practice. He didn't know anything either about Rashad McCant's classes and grades, especially when he started pulling down A's after strings of Ds and Fs. "Golly, we have some mighty fine tutors at UNC! Oh wait, I'm not supposed to know anything!"
The problem in both these cases is what can be proven. Unless there is a smoking gun somewhere, the NCAA will be hard pressed to assess penalties.
Roy is a slimeball plain and simple he just pretends like he is a stand up guy. It is easy to sell a recruit to NC when they know they do not have to do any classwork!
Like I said, part of it is limited investigative ability and part of it is turning a blind eye. IU self-reported and self-punished. I'm not convinced the punishment would've been near what it was had we just fired Sampson and his staff and denied any knowledge. That said, the NCAA probably wouldn't have known had their not been self-reporting (though I'm not sure other schools wouldn't have said something, but still limited ability to investigate if we denied). All that said, I'm glad Sampson is gone. It was worth the punishment to remove the stain of him and how he runs a program. The type of kid he brought in and what they got away with was embarrassing.
There have been worse scandals, led by Sandusky, but this UNC deal is by far the biggest, most diliberate, calculated scandal with the largest number of accomplices and benefactors/victims.
Making it African American studies, to dissuade the predominantly white student body to not have interest in signing up, is just another layer. The players obviously were funneled there first and others just stumbled upon it.
It seems like the NCAA is trying to let time take it off the radar. Hopefully it won't. It's a lot worse than SMU and deserves the same penalty.
Making it African American studies, to dissuade the predominantly white student body to not have interest in signing up, is just another layer. The players obviously were funneled there first and others just stumbled upon it.
It seems like the NCAA is trying to let time take it off the radar. Hopefully it won't. It's a lot worse than SMU and deserves the same penalty.
The worst part about this situation is the reaction of smug UNC fans/alum.
For all the crap they've slung at other schools over the years -- Kentucky and Calipari, us and Sampson, NC State and Valvano, for example -- it turns out that they are the dirtiest program of all. A systematic scheme, devised by administrators with the knowledge of coaches (don't be so naive to think the coaches didn't know), in place for 20+ years for the sole purpose keeping the ineligible able to play. Who cares if all students could enroll in the fraudulent classes? Obviously, the scheme was devised to the purpose of keeping athletes eligible - you really think any administrator gave a damn about any non-athlete's academic status with respect to those courses. All originated under their patron saint, Dean Smith, by the way.
So, does the NCAA really give a damn about the "student athlete" -- I guess we'll find out. I think there is a distinction between the fraud perpetrated by UNC and easy classes athletes take at other universities. This case is unique in its scope and duration, and the absolute fraudulent nature of the courses and the complete disregard for academics displayed at UNC.
All that said, do I think the NCAA will do anything? Nothing major, but what type of message does that send to all other NCAA schools. Is IU now free to just set up a fictitious major for athletes, but allow non-athletes to enroll just to keep it above board? If the NCAA punts on this, what is the point on even having athletes attend class?
In any event, UNC has already won. They cheated and cheated, and when they were caught, they stalled their way to a subsequent Final Four and a National Championship. I honestly believe that if this scandal involved almost any other program -- think Kentucky, for example -- there is no way that school would have been permitted to participate in the last two NCAA Tournaments. What if it was IU - would we have been allowed to play? I seem to think not.
Technically, UNC used ineligible players to win two national championships. They should be vacated -- but that will never happen. I just don't ever want to hear some UNC schmuck lecture anyone on the "Carolina Way" ever again.
For all the crap they've slung at other schools over the years -- Kentucky and Calipari, us and Sampson, NC State and Valvano, for example -- it turns out that they are the dirtiest program of all. A systematic scheme, devised by administrators with the knowledge of coaches (don't be so naive to think the coaches didn't know), in place for 20+ years for the sole purpose keeping the ineligible able to play. Who cares if all students could enroll in the fraudulent classes? Obviously, the scheme was devised to the purpose of keeping athletes eligible - you really think any administrator gave a damn about any non-athlete's academic status with respect to those courses. All originated under their patron saint, Dean Smith, by the way.
So, does the NCAA really give a damn about the "student athlete" -- I guess we'll find out. I think there is a distinction between the fraud perpetrated by UNC and easy classes athletes take at other universities. This case is unique in its scope and duration, and the absolute fraudulent nature of the courses and the complete disregard for academics displayed at UNC.
All that said, do I think the NCAA will do anything? Nothing major, but what type of message does that send to all other NCAA schools. Is IU now free to just set up a fictitious major for athletes, but allow non-athletes to enroll just to keep it above board? If the NCAA punts on this, what is the point on even having athletes attend class?
In any event, UNC has already won. They cheated and cheated, and when they were caught, they stalled their way to a subsequent Final Four and a National Championship. I honestly believe that if this scandal involved almost any other program -- think Kentucky, for example -- there is no way that school would have been permitted to participate in the last two NCAA Tournaments. What if it was IU - would we have been allowed to play? I seem to think not.
Technically, UNC used ineligible players to win two national championships. They should be vacated -- but that will never happen. I just don't ever want to hear some UNC schmuck lecture anyone on the "Carolina Way" ever again.
What distinction is there between the easy classes offered at unc versus those offered at IU or any other school? Athletes are funneled into them to maintain eligibility and, absent cheating in the class or doctoring transcripts, the NCAA has been loathe to tell schools how they should design and implement their curriculum.
NCAA member schools (the presidents, mainly) make up the rules, and they've steadfastly chosen to not differentiate between the course offerings at various schools. To them, academic fraud has been about giving unearned grades or otherwise manipulating transcripts (think former IU assistant Norm Ellenberger), not designing easy majors with minimal classroom demands.
In other words, it will be extremely difficult for them to punish a school that didn't break their rules, just as they found out with PSU. There will be a great hue and cry about favoritism when / if this occurs, but it will be based on ignorance of the rules rather than an understanding of them.
Disagree in that there is correspondence by the academic advisors whom I believe are employed by the athletic department discussing student athletes getting "placed" into these class and to have their grades looked at again to keep them eligible. The numbers I've seen show a disproportionate percentage of student athletes taking these courses when compared to the percentage of the general student population. I get the argument but the email correspondence seems to show that members of the athletic department were in the know. Which seems to show a lack of control in my eyes. I know they will get out of it, but once they do it does beg the question why even have the NCAA? Let's just pay these kids for the entertainment they provide and they can either go to school or not.
No question they were directed into those courses and major, just like you see at many schools, including IU. Less obvious is that UNC created a major and / or classes for the express purpose of maintaining athlete's eligibility, rather than having a major that was at some point manipulated to serve that purpose.
And, in either scenario, where is the fraud? If I'm a UNC alum, I'd be furious that such classes exist, as it seems like a stretch that they represent "higher education". But such courses exist at all but a few universities, including IU. Do people really want the NCAA getting into those weeds when virtually any school likely has a few courses that wouldn't exactly reflect positively on the school. It's the reason the rules don't stray into academics beyond transcript manipulation and basic eligibility issues.
The NCAA is a business entity. Their goal first and foremost is to make money. Players are a commodity only,and the NCAA does not create extra profit by them excelling in the classroom.
Also, integrity is not cost effective. Neither is quality or telling the truth. Have you guys lived in cave since Reagan and the 80's? This is business, all that matters is the bottom line. By hook or by crook ... what ever it takes.
And, until fans demand that students under academic scholarships also perform well in sports, this topic is nothing but a sea of hypocrisy.
All universities have less stringent majors and many now allow students to create "snowflake" degrees. All alumni pound their chests that "we" don't do that...PU grads boast that they don't have a GS degree as IU and UM do, but they instead have Hospitality or the laughable OLS where less than "student"-athletes camp out.
Difference is; UNC created an organized pathway and communications network for "laundering" athletes that are not college material including some core courses that were actually fake. They won't be punished further IMO.
What NCAA rules do you believe they violated? I think that's going to be the issue for the Committee on Infractions, not that their practices aren't bad but that they're outside of the authority of the regulator.
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