Wilkes down to 3
- Thread starter iubud
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You realize, of course, that "The program... it's happening" is devoid of any discernible meaning whatsoever? You might just as well have said "The Sample Gates... it's happening" or "The Moon... it's happening"
Don't get me wrong though, I thoroughly enjoy the (vague to the extreme) nature of your posts. I've had many good times watching wordier posters try to engage you in debate. Keep up the good work
I think somebody wrote or passed along that ...at this point it would be a surprise if Wilkes didn't end up at IU. That was a few weeks ago when emails were going around. I think you joined in and even affirmed with a positive "yep"
You did say Wilkes's comments were odd for someone considering to commit to a program. In hindsight, he is not in awe of Crean's program to say the least and does not revere IU the way we hope in-state recruits would or are supposed to. But those days are gone and they were back in the heydays of the late 80's and early 90's. I think he gave IU a good a chance as possible considering his family and friends but went with his heart.
No surprise, I didn't think you'd answer the question. Kumbaya....
This is the post you refer to:
Hearing REALLY good things in regards to Wilkes....
My response:
"Yep. Am hearing he had a really good visit.
Crean did a nice job. He may just pull this one off. We'll see."
From what I've been told all along, KW had a great OV to Indiana. He has a ton of people from NC who have tried to persuade him to go to IU. And if things were different, he might end up there; there is still a possibility, but highly unlikely IMHO.
This recruitment, as I see it after all I'm hearing, comes down to two things:
1) Relationship. Eddie is the key here. He still has deep ties to Indy and to the state. And despite how well the OV went, KW still has doubts about Crean as a coach, particularly when it comes to . . .
2) KW's pro prospects. Despite what some believe, Crean is not regarded highly in the state as a developer of talent to the NBA. Part of that is ineffectiveness as a defensive coach, but IMO Wilkes looked at the team he'd be playing on at IU vs what is coming together for Alford and saw a BIG disadvantage to his pro prospects.
Totally disagree with this statement.
1987: Jay Edwards, Lyndon Jones
1988: Matt Nover
1989: Calbert Cheaney, Greg Graham, Pat Graham, Chris Lawson.
1990: Damon Bailey
1991: Alan Henderson, Brian Evans
1993: Sherron Wilkerson
1996: Michael Lewis
1997: Luke Recker
How many GOOD in-state recruits you need me to list?
I guess this is down to the wire but who knows maybe it's already a done deal. I thought Cody was headed to UNC.
I'm not sure what you read in the last part, but that was my point. Which part did you disagree with, that Wilkes does not revere IU? Gone are the days when in-state recruits wanted to play for IU; e.g. the players you named.
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Sorry, but the way I read your statement you were including that time frame of players. My apologies.
If you look back 30 years (Jay/Lyndon), whenever Indiana had really good players they got more than their fair share. Think about the years they didn't get good in-state players:
1992 - who did we miss on? Walter McCarthy? We were loaded at his position.
1994-96? Your Mr Basketball winners were Bryce Drew, Damon Frierson and Kevin Ault.
1999: Jason Gardner? Who else?
2000: Jared Jeffries
Then Knight was fired - and the subsequent coaching staffs have never established a solid bond with in-state coaches.
4 top 30 kids instate - and we're not likely to get A SINGLE ONE. Despite coming off a conference outright title and 3 trips to the Sweet 16 in the past 5 years. How that cannot be a red flag to everyone IDK.
Indiana high school basketball coaches have not had good opinions of the IU coaches post Knight (no source or link) and until IU has a coach whom all the AAU and HS coaches respect, I doubt IU can take advantage of the "feeder" system in-state.
If we really want to establish ties with the coaches at Indiana, Crean should invite 100 top coaches in the state and hold a banquet in the Tudor Room at the IMU. Have the players be present as well. Coaches could shake hands with Thomas Bryant and talk to OG and hear about how IU develop its players. Crean could use this bi-annual dinner as an opportunity for public relations and to win over the coaches. Of course for every coach he talks to, he might get an earful of how he should coach. Isn't he already doing something like this though when he tours the state during the off season?
On your first paragraph, spot on. And they'd love for their kids to head to IU, but in the end they're most concerned with the best situation for the kid. That IU isn't regarded as such in too many cases is telling.
Having a invite dinner would do little good IMHO. Crean doing MORE talking would be a bad thing, not help.
I'll preface this by saying I'm not connected into the Indiana high school or AAU coaching ranks at all. The following views come from a family member who coaches high school football in the state.
His comments, gleaned from some of his basketball coaching friends, are that Crean has a reputation among some for needless complexity, and that it's occasionally communicated in a very off-putting, "look how much I know" manner, or at least that's how it is sometimes perceived. The subject of how a player will be used can turn into an endless, mind numbing treatise that not only loses people, it can come across as self promotional. These are basketball coaches who all think they know something about the sport, and they don't enjoy being talked down to or feeling like every encounter is a mini-clinic at the feet of the master teacher. He's stopped short of calling him a bs artist, but he said people get worn out by him and that he doesn't enjoy much respect.
He did say that many parents really like him because he strongly emphasizes academics and the responsibility he assumes to look after their son, and that kids really do like him and enjoy being around him. He compared him somewhat to Cam Cameron, though he said Cam wasn't as nice a guy, which wasn't a surprise.
Is Jordan Tucker
I have never met Crean and although his public appearances are more polite than Knight, he is much less entertaining. Knight is a tough act to follow and it is doubtful that unless IU cheats in some way, they will never win conference titles and NCAA tournaments at the rate that coach Knight did early in his tenure.
Two things that stand out include that players like TC, Families like TC, and a third seems that he is able to get some pretty good assistant coaches. Many of them being head coaches previously.
According to your analysis Indiana coaches have a lot of inlfuence on their player (assuming you mean HS not AAU). I am a little concerned that they would not see IU as a place where player development has been pretty good the last few years.
It may be to IU's best interest to continue recruiting from the plains states as Kansas has run off everyone else out there and there and IU has a pretty good pipeline began with Morgan and Anunoby. Kansas can only take the top few and the rest could come to IU.
Finally it would seem that most of this seemed to have changed after The Movement as Indiana was getting some of the top players in the state at that time.
I think your family member makes some good points here. Having coached in Indiana years ago, you get treated in a way that to your face you are almost a god status, and behind your back everyone in Indiana knows more about basketball than you do.
I have never met Crean and although his public appearances are more polite than Knight, he is much less entertaining. Knight is a tough act to follow and it is doubtful that unless IU cheats in some way, they will never win conference titles and NCAA tournaments at the rate that coach Knight did early in his tenure.
Two things that stand out include that players like TC, Families like TC, and a third seems that he is able to get some pretty good assistant coaches. Many of them being head coaches previously.
According to your analysis Indiana coaches have a lot of inlfuence on their player (assuming you mean HS not AAU). I am a little concerned that they would not see IU as a place where player development has been pretty good the last few years.
It may be to IU's best interest to continue recruiting from the plains states as Kansas has run off everyone else out there and there and IU has a pretty good pipeline began with Morgan and Anunoby. Kansas can only take the top few and the rest could come to IU.
Finally it would seem that most of this seemed to have changed after The Movement as Indiana was getting some of the top players in the state at that time.
I think the perceived arrogance coupled with the lack of elite success and sketchy player development hasn't gone unnoticed by coaches, and I'm sure that finds its way to players and parents. In short, whatever recruiting advantage one would think IU has in Indiana seems to have vanished, so I'm sure you're right that he'll need to go elsewhere for kids.
Not a good situation for IU right now.
Over recruiting is also an issue. It's not just some fans that don't like it. His reputation for it is noted by everyone. and he is one of the few coaches who do it consistently.
HS coaches, AAU coaches, and opposing coaches I'm sure notice it and I'm sure the opposing coaches mention it constantly. Regardless how it's rationalized, it comes off as being disingenuous and reeks of flesh dealing.
We're currently over committed by 3, Wilkes would have made it 4.
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A very good point that I failed to mention, only because it wasn't something that my family member mentioned when we spoke.
fwiw - It does happen in other programs, but rarely. Wisconsin over-signed a couple years back. Once in a decade. Iowa is over committed next year. IIRC it's the first time for them, maybe 2nd. Rarely does a coach do it almost every year. Crean has been over committed all but two years here and the years he wasn't, weren't because he didn't try. He's a serial over recruiter and if we notice be damn sure opposing coaches notice and use it against us.
I don't care how people rationalize it into being good strategy, or if it works itself out as he claims it does, it's appearance is of being unethical and he really needs to stop.
Does anyone consider that being over-committed by 3 already, came into play in this recruitment? Does everyone just believe Wilkes' AAU coach, HS coach, parents and Alford just ignored it or didn't notice? And, unlike most teams who do it, we're not over committed by 1 or 2 players. We are over committed by 3! Wilkes would have been the 4th.
Does anyone consider that over recruiting may possibly be the cause of our league leading and higher than national average transfer rate? Did anyone notice what Wilkes said about IU being straight up and not wanting to have to transfer later? Maybe it was in reference to Crean's obsessive recruiting philosophy? It seems to be.
Then consider that he fills the end of rosters with players that everyone knows will never play an impactful minute. And, it just defies all logic to even do it. Those who see it as a solid strategy never notice, realize, or admit, to that aspect.
Basically, if he's doing it for strategic purpose, to gain some type of advantage, he's still doing it wrong. He's gained nothing by over recruiting. With all due respect to Priller, Gelon, and former players like April but how does having them on roster benefit the team?
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I agree with some of these late fills being long shots. It seems that IU used to let players walk on and then give them a scholarship if they had an extra one that year. Does this option no longer exist at IU since they now have to promise a 4 year scholarship opportunity?
Like Marlin, he's wasn't a bad player and would have made a great 3rd guard. But, he transferred.
Here's another odd thing about IU under Crean. It may be nothing ..
Our favored walk-ons transfer or quit seemingly more than any other program, ever. I have no chart or anything, just reflecting but we've had 6 favored walk ons, in the last 3 classes, transfer or quit. 6. I don't see it happening anywhere else.
Look up the meanings of these words. Please..
"Argument."
"Seemingly"
and then consider what these sentences mean.
"It may mean nothing"
"I have no chart or anything"...
Then realize, I was only reflecting, I was not making an argument. I already pointed out I had no data, and used the word "seemingly" for a reason. We can at times actually just converse.
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You have, in a nutshell, summed up exactly why AAU & High School coaches feel like they do about Crean.
I can tell you it played a big part into both Waters and Wilkes decisions (assuming as I've been told KW will be a Bruin), along with Hartman's injury not being disclosed.
Im with others....why offer players that may never be a factor in the IU rotation just to know they will be forced out in a year or two...save the scholly for the next year. No rules state you have to use all of the schoalrships every year This is why we end up in the oversign situation in the first place
Why not slot some of these guys we've taken commitments from?
Guys like Gelon, Durham, Moore all would likely still be available - especially the 1st two. Priller and April were two other wastes.
How people can claim Crean is a great recruiter is beyond me.
Isn't it possible that his cancellation of a visit to UCLA might have nothing to do with Wilkes?
Well Zags blog - “It was a mutual decision [to cancel the visit],” Bowen said. So maybe Alford saw what happened to CTC when Crean kept on with JS...
The way I see it is that his recruiting philosophy of over recruiting digs him a hole. His refusal to slot (as you guys call it) less heralded recruits is head scratching as well as costly. On the other hand, I'm pretty convinced that he has an uncanny eye for spotting unheralded gems. Maybe he has a very talented and trusted scout who tips him off on under rated players?
I listened to Jerry Meyer talk about finding hidden gems a week or so ago, and it occurred to me that perhaps it's the big recruiting budget that allows Crean to get a look at some players that others would rank highly if they had the exposure.
This is all La-Z-boy speculation on my part, but I'm sure that I'm not the only one who really likes these kids when I see their videos regardless of their ranking. Morgan was pretty highly rated (100-110 range), but I thought he was still undervalued the first time I got to watch him play. I love Cujo and Davis (too bad he lost the summer) and I thought Green looked under rated as well. Green even had defensive highlights, which made him an instant upgrade! OG fooled me a little, because he is so deliberate and methodical looking that I questioned his quickness. Still yet, I thought how is this kid rated so low.
This is a long way of saying that I see both sides of the recruiting debate.
What Crean seems unwilling to do is hold back a scholarship or two as a hedge, rather than oversigning and inviting the ire that understandably follows. Players, parents and coaches have every reason to be wary of such an approach.
The surprise might be that IU has struck out with every instate player over 3 years with the exception of the highly sought after GG. You have trouble understanding why that would upset/concern IU fans?
Crean also had success at Marquette finding undervalued recruits. To me its the best thing he does as a college coach. You just hate to rely on this unique skill of his. Would love to add a 5 star obviously. It's just a difficult pill to swallow, as we sit back and watch the best talent from our state go elsewhere.
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