Why We ALL Should Wear a Mask

Discussion in 'The Water Cooler' started by 76-1, May 20, 2020.

  1. 76-1

    76-1 All-American
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  2. UncleMark

    UncleMark Hall of Famer
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  3. sglowrider

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    I don't want to be a I told you so sort of fella but months ago I said that we used masks everywhere here. Many of you guys were said the CDC suggested that it wasn't necessary and ineffective. Then I said the CDC was wrong on this. The proof is in the pudding.

    This one thing I have been banging on about -- there seems to a strong resistance to learn from others who have been in the fight longer than the folks in the States. From test kits to containment lessons learnt (testing, tracking, mapping and isolation) or early warnings.

    This mask thing is just another example. There is a silver bullet mindset to fixing this when the reality is that its a series or a binder full of little measures chipping away collectively or cumulatively.
     
    3 sglowrider, May 20, 2020
    Last edited: May 20, 2020
  4. Cortez88

    Cortez88 Junior
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    I’d bet the CDC, as well as many health agencies, baked in the unwillingness of certain Americans to take orders from the government into their calculus. Hell, look at R Gov DeWine in OH. First the state mandated masks. He had to back down in short order because the nutters were threatening to hurt people who tried to enforce it. The CDC “recommendation” wasn’t all about public health. It also included political considerations.
     
  5. mcmurtry66

    mcmurtry66 Junior
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    I honestly think the cdc is just learning as it goes. They’ve been changing their positions on a few things: masks, surface transmission, etc. I think it’s just a novel virus and the scientists are learning as they go. It’s hard.
     
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  6. Hoosier_Hack

    Hoosier_Hack All-Big Ten
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    I wear a mask in public. So does my wife. If other family members want to meet and see people in our household, they have to utilize masks whenever in public. I have an elderly person living with us and we do it to protect them.

    That said, I think we have done better than most when looking at the numbers. Remove NY, NJ, and Nursing Homes from the equation and we we did outstanding. There is basically a triangle of death when looking at the map. It stretches from NY and NJ as an epicenter, it tracks straight down the coast to Fl and then goes right up I-65 into the Midwest. I think that is clearly infections due to NY and NJ exposure in Florida and taken back to the visitors states. With that said, I think we did very well. Time to open.
     
  7. sglowrider

    sglowrider Hall of Famer
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    They may be pushed outside their element too. Technically their remit/mandate is to be a surveillance organisation. How that was changed over the years may have contributed to its lost is space situation.
     
  8. Hoosier_Hack

    Hoosier_Hack All-Big Ten
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    Why do you think America’s response has been poor?
     
  9. Sir_Saucy

    Sir_Saucy Redshirt
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    A computer model was created to match empirical data they personally selected, I don't really think thats science. It also specifies early mask wearing and it has been speculated the virus has been spreading since Novemeber of 2019, maybe even September. Is wearing a mask now, early?
     
  10. sglowrider

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    I applaud you for your civic consciousness.

    But to take out the NY/NJ epicentre doesn't make sense. Every virus has an entry-point. There will be different types of clusters that will pop up on the next few months. And hopefully better planning/anticipation through widespread testing will enable that to happen.

    But your first NY/NJ clusters maybe urban-centric and as it was tracked, came from Europe. Community spread crosses state lines. This is the issue too -- it should never have been left to the states unless each individual state would do a lockout of other people from other states.

    The community spread is all inter-connected and continuous. You ignore this then it won't help to manage the pandemic either. Patient Zero is critical. When a pandemic hits, the main thing is to work together and not left to each one to fend for themselves. The virus doesn't recognise politics or federal system.
     
  11. Sir_Saucy

    Sir_Saucy Redshirt
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    Why should it have never been up to the states? How does someone in D.C. make a better decision for NYC than someone in NY? Most governors/state legislatures are working together with states around them, with the support of the federal government. That sounds reasonable, doesn't it?

    Maybe if NYC would have actually cleaned their subways before 2 weeks ago it wouldn't be the epicenter of America. Or maybe if the federal government would have created a giant new agency like Homeland Security the pandemic would go away (just like terrorism went away).
     
  12. CO. Hoosier

    CO. Hoosier Hall of Famer
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    Is this really new? Except for the predictive effect of mask wearing, this has pretty much been the message all along. At first we simply didn’t have the masks, now we do.

    Once again, people need to understand that masks with unfiltered exhale valves are not to be used.

    Still open is the question of where and when to wear masks. At first I wore them when outside in uncrowded areas, then I took one with me and seldom put it on. Now I mostly don’t have one with me. I remember that scary video animation of a cough outside, then I learned that was BS.

    Orders that masks are required inside buildings or waiting in lines should be followed and merchants are getting more strict about that.
     
  13. CO. Hoosier

    CO. Hoosier Hall of Famer
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    The virus is highly clustered. It follows predictable vectors and patterns. You are correct. Except for the most basic measures, like hand washing and mask wearing, no federal agency or office has the means to understand all the variables geography and living conditions present in every locality. There is a wide variety in just Colorado which require different approaches. The infection map of NY is even more diverse.
     
  14. alvis22

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    I'll preface this by saying I wear a mask as of now. I constantly wash and rotate through 3 of them and sanitize my hands any time I handle them as I admittedly don't wear them while driving. That said, watching human behavior over the past few weeks, I understand those who feel like masks do little good (and maybe more harm) as a matter of public policy.

    I'd say an easy majority of people wear a mask in stores because they have to or want others to feel more comfortable...all good. BUT they pull them out of their pocket as they're walking into the store before and after handling their phone, etc. Then they proceed to touch it often, pull below their nose, continue to touch their phone and other surfaces, etc. When they leave the store it goes back in that pocket as they head to the next store. Surgical masks in home improvement stores that look like they were picked up in the parking lot to save a buck...maybe this is better than no masks at all but we're not "good" at it.

    You know what would be cool? Hand washing or sanitizing stations to enter a store. Don't touch your face. Don't cough and if you absolutely must then bend over and cough into your elbow while facing downwards. Simply requiring people to wear masks, especially as we head for hotter weather is going to wane in effectiveness and there are some easy things we could be implementing.
     
  15. alvis22

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    Oh, and I'm new here. Heard it was a lot more civil than the GBI GD forum.
     
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  16. Hoosier_Hack

    Hoosier_Hack All-Big Ten
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    We are different than the rest of the world. Your Singapore for instance still performs public beatings (lashing) for spitting or littering. As an open society, there are things hardwired into our DNA that won’t accept things that someone from Singapore or Korea may accept. With that, we give up certain things also. When you fail to accept, recognize, or account for our differences but account for everyone else’s you don’t get a fair view.

    By removing NY, NJ, and Nursing Home deaths, we see that once it hit in America, we acted on it, contained it well, and have maintained it well to today. I’m not saying ignore it which I don’t think anyone reading my posts would think unless you just don’t like the data. What I’m saying is, after it hit here we reacted just fine. If you are suggesting we act before it hit, I’m not sure that is in our DNA to give up freedoms like that so willingly. If the Feds came out and said “NY, no one can leave the state, and all businesses are shut down.” The headlines would be how Trump was acting as a dictator and it is the sole responsibility of the State to govern itself. I do agree with that.

    once again, once again....... In the end, he’s done well.
     
  17. 76-1

    76-1 All-American
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    Someone lied to you ;)
     
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  18. sglowrider

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    Simple -- and as usual, a stream of consciousness writing, Timmy style.

    Its poor only when you start comparing with other countries. Its like SATs, MCATs you need to have a standard of comparison with others.

    Here you look at the total number of cases, the fatality rates and others like the number of tests per capita etc

    It has 5 times the number of cases than the 2nd most country. Remember, on the 1st of March there were only 72 reported cases and today's its nearly 1.6million reported cases. Its like 39th in the world for test per capita so that means there isn't enough data to go around to be able to tell what the real situation is. So when you test more, the real numbers will raise too.

    Three times the number of deaths compared to the 2nd country, the UK (which Trump said was a disaster a month ago. And he was right to a degree as BoJo was a buffoon and ignored it, didn't take it seriously till Mid March.)

    The fatality rate is the only shining star.

    But if the numbers add up the healthcare system will be overwhelmed and then the healthcare workers will have to do triage decisions on patients -- to choose who lives and who will be sent to palliative. You are not there YET.
    But you have to remember the problem with the pesky covid virus and patients is that they seem to land up staying in hospitals a lot longer than other epidemics. If they land up in the ICU, they are in there for the long haul -- instead of a normal 4-5 day stint, many COVID ICU patients are in there for 10-14 days. (And if I am not mistaken, 1/4 of them will leave in a box.)

    What were the obvious mistakes?

    1) If I had known about this epidemic back in January (I didn't post it in the 1st or 2nd week of January because I didn't think anyone would be interested... yet) But if I had known about it then one would assume the specialist/experts' surveillance alarm bells would have gone off way before I even heard about it. So you give the CDC the benefit of the doubt. Its their primary reason to exist.

    So how come the playbook/measures were not taken back then to start prepping the nation? Its not the first time epidemics has happened. They seem to happen every ten years. Why more and more frequently, that's another discussion.

    2) The well was poisoned politically very early.

    Politics in many ways is about shifting blame or setting the other person to look bad. You don't poison the well right at the start of an epidemic. The standard protocol for most pandemic management playbook is to start with containment first -- keep the numbers small and do the measures to buy time.

    Operationally, it means you shut off the source ie the flights -- and here the WH did a political thing. They shut off the flights from China because politically it has some cache -- but not Europe or at least it was way too late. (The virus in NY/NJ came from Europe.)

    I also talked about containment strategy being the cheaper and more sustainable approach rather than going straight into mitigation like lockdown and bumping up of healthcare capacities.) You track, trace. map (the clusters) and then isolate the primary and secondary contacts. Some of the push back on this within the forum was that its just too big a country to do this. To which I said that the USA is the richest country in the world, with resources no other country in the world could dream of. And yet it was never mobilised. Everything was siloed. The military were never integrated into the efforts. As Boy Wonder said, Federal's stockpile is the Federal Gov't's. This is just dumb.

    In parallel to this containment strategy is the communication strategy. You need to get people to take up personal responsibility. You can try different hot buttons. What they use here is saving the elderly/your parents (since its an ageing nation where 23% of the population is over 60y.o) Americans love the patriotic button -- could have approached like a war footing -- fight for the nation.
    People could have been encouraged to download the tracing app. Its anonymised and yet everyone knee jerks and start talking about Big Brother when if the communications was done properly, people would overcome the fear -- its like seat belts, you do it for a reason now. But when first introduced, were there push back on the government telling you what to do? Probably but that's the flip side of the American Exceptionalism coin.

    3) Bottom line from my perspective is that there didn't seem to be a pandemic playbook in play. No institutional domain knowledge nor memory.
    The whole thing should be driven centrally and by the experts. Why on earth is Trump answering medical questions and leading to him confusing the populace with his (recreational drug-induced?) ideas?
    The resultant is that the country is divided, confused and has gone back to its knee jerk response to anything difficult -- from mass shooting to wars. The Flag, Freedom, Constitutional Rights etc.

    If this was done differently, I would have used the message of community -- saving your friends, neighbours, parents, grandparents. That what America is all about. The people around you.

    Not those stupid people walking around with AR-15s with drug-induced hard-ons wanting to tell everyone about their freedom whilst the same time intimidating people. Whats that all about?

    It could have been done better -- there are scores of countries in the world with their own constitution. There are scores of countries with a federated system. Why did Merkel approach this different when Germany is a country smack in the middle of Europe with open borders to the rest fo Europe? She is technically trained. She appreciates procedures in deriving solutions. And not quickly jump and market the hell out some silver/magic bullet solution.

    The US has more resources at hand to fight any pandemic than ANY other country in the world And yet it has very very poor result. A doctor friend of mine in the frontline once said -- it looks like the Americans don't know how to manage a pandemic very well. (And this was two months ago!)

    The only conclusion is its an issue of poor management and its diabolical leadership.
     
  19. sglowrider

    sglowrider Hall of Famer
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    Wow. That's news!

    Thanks for telling me this. I better inform the rest of my friends here that this is happening.
     
  20. Hoosier_Hack

    Hoosier_Hack All-Big Ten
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    BS post...
     
  21. sglowrider

    sglowrider Hall of Famer
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    Virus don't recognise state lines. So unless you can shut each individual state line down...
     
  22. Hoosier_Hack

    Hoosier_Hack All-Big Ten
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    A little defensive Francis?
     
  23. outside shooter

    outside shooter Hall of Famer
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    All of the emphasis on surface disinfection is nice, but that seems to be aimed at thwarting the 5% of so of the spread that likely occurs from that route. Spread of the virus by directly breathing virus particles existing within exhaled water droplets is according to most studies the 95% scenario.

    If you can only focus on doing two things, 1) maintain social distancing and 2) properly wear a mask whenever social distancing is difficult to achieve.
     
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  24. sglowrider

    sglowrider Hall of Famer
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    'Your Singapore for instance still performs public beatings (lashing) for spitting or littering'

    And he is a guy who calls BS? Its laughable how ignorant you are of the world. I live here and yu are telling me these events are happening? How much credibility do you think you have now?

    Yet you are calling what I have seen have been consistently saying about since Feb? I am in my 6th month of this. I have been saying the same thing over. But if you want to be an ostrich and not learn from past mistake...
     
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  25. sglowrider

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    Defensive? Its not even true.. you made it up! What is there to be defensive about?

    I am shaking my head of your level of ignorance or the make-believe world that you think you are living in.

    Ok hack. Little dirty secret of Singapore... you see those two strips in the middle of the field?

    [​IMG]

    Thats where they behead people for spitting. You can ask those people in the know in Singapore.
     
  26. Hoosier_Hack

    Hoosier_Hack All-Big Ten
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    I made up lashings in Singapore?
     
  27. sglowrider

    sglowrider Hall of Famer
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    Lashing are done in prison for rape, etc.Unless you think the whole country is a prison then that's a different discussion.

    The legal system here is cruel no doubt but when you look at the crime rates, the murder rates (60-70 murders a year) and the mass shooting (ZERO, NEVER).

    I know which I prefer.

    Lets face the facts hack, you don't know every much about this country and yet you are making wild statements as those they are gospel. Its another whataboutism -- many countries are managing it much better than the US and yet you are unwilling to look into the mirror why.
     
  28. Hoosier_Hack

    Hoosier_Hack All-Big Ten
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    Caning remained on the statute book after Malaya declared independence from Britain in 1957, and after Singapore ceased to be part of Malaysia in 1965. Subsequent legislation has been passed by the Parliament of Singapore over the years to increase the minimum strokes an offender receives, and the number of crimes that may be punished with caning
     
  29. Sir_Saucy

    Sir_Saucy Redshirt
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    Right, but neither the states nor the federal government can shut down state-to-state travel. So how does a centralized plan make it better?
     
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  30. Hoosier_Hack

    Hoosier_Hack All-Big Ten
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    Not just rape my friend or held only for violent crimes.
     
  31. sglowrider

    sglowrider Hall of Famer
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    Using the federal resource to mobilise both federal resources and coordinate state resources. If you look at what eventually happened -- the various states started to regionalise their efforts. That made perfect sense -- from buying in bulk of PPEs, ventilators, sharing of resources, tracking patients or contacts etc. But it should have been done from the start at a national level. Its all be done backwards.

    Regionalising, and now efforts in trying to trace/track and isolate the contacts -- when it would have been much easier when it was done at the start when the numbers were much more manageable. This is what most countries are doing. Containment first.
     
  32. sglowrider

    sglowrider Hall of Famer
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    The legal system is a bit like the menu form you find is some states like Minnesota, Pennsylvania. At certain speeds over the limit, you pay a fixed fee. 10mph over the limit its XXX.

    Here it's the same for crimes. It's quite boring for judges really.

    And spitting or whatever you made up isn't on that list. Its very clear that when you enter the country and when you fill-up the immigration form, there is a big statement that you will face a death penalty for drug trafficking. That and murder are the two capital punishments I can think of.

    Incest, sexual abuse and assault (and that will vary) will get you the cane.
     
  33. Hoosier_Hack

    Hoosier_Hack All-Big Ten
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    Sections 325–332 of the Criminal Procedure Code lay down the procedures governing caning. They include the following:

    • A male offender between the ages of 18 and 50 who has been certified to be in a fit state of health by a medical officer is liable to be caned.
    • The offender shall receive no more than 24 strokes of the cane on any one occasion, irrespective of the total number of offences committe In other words, a man cannot be sentenced to more than 24 strokes of the cane in a single trial, but he may receive more than 24 strokes if the sentences are given out in separate trials.[5]
    • If the offender is under 18, he may receive up to 10 strokes of the cane,[4][6] but a lighter cane will be used in this case.[7] Boys under 16 may be sentenced to caning only by the High Court and not by the State Courts.
    • An offender sentenced to death shall not be caned.
    • The rattan cane used shall not exceed 1.27 cm (0.50 inches) in diameter.[7]
    • Caning must not be carried out in instalments.[6] This is to ensure that prisoners sentenced to caning are done with it in a single session and do not have to go through the process repeatedly even if the full sentence might not have been administered for medical reasons.[8]
    Any male convict, whether sentenced to caning or not, may also be caned in prison if he commits certain offences while serving time in prison.[9]



    Singaporean law allows caning to be ordered for over 35 offences, including hostage-taking/kidnapping, robbery, gang robbery with murder, rioting, causing grievous hurt, drug abuse, vandalism, extortion, sexual abuse, molestation (often referred to as "outrage of modesty"), and unlawful possession of weapons. Caning is also a mandatory punishment for certain offences such as rape, drug trafficking, illegal moneylending, and for foreigners who overstay by more than 90 days – a measure designed to deter illegal immigrants.

    imagine if the US caned people who overstayed their visa.....
     
  34. Hoosier_Hack

    Hoosier_Hack All-Big Ten
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    delete
     
  35. sglowrider

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    You have an issue with punishment for those crimes?

    Like I said -- we have one of the lowest crime rates in the world. 1st-degree homicide is always unheard of -- maybe one or two a year and its a BIG DEAL. Talk of the town. Women, in general, can safely walk down the streets drunk at 3am and not feel threaten or unsafe.

    There are thousands of people who actually bike ride or jog at midnight here -- cooler. Its 10.30pm here now and I would not be afraid to go out into the bike paths and bike for the next two hours. ZERO hesitation.

    So it ought to make you think what the definition of Freedom is. If you look at Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs, Food and safety is certainly available in abundance as I am free to walk out now. Freedom from fear.

    FYI. Illegal immigrant issue/punishment isn't that big a deal here. Its an island surrounded by two countries only 14 miles away.
     
  36. Hoosier_Hack

    Hoosier_Hack All-Big Ten
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    I don’t know what this is suppose to mean? I guess the field makes it better?
     
  37. Sir_Saucy

    Sir_Saucy Redshirt
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    So your argument is other countries used centralized plans so we should to? Singapore, since it is a topic in this thread, can very easily use a centralized plan. The federal goverment sent thousands of ventilators, PPE, and Navy hospital ships to various locations, and the states used their own resources to do some of the same... So how is that not doing much of what you said?

    No state has even come close to running out of ventilators, nothing stopped the states from doing anything that you mentioned. Why is it wrong that our government system worked within the confines of said government system? The system is built to start local, so you say it was backwards but that was the intent of the system.
     
  38. Hoosier_Hack

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    Sure nothing to see here.... what other countries perform public beatings, beheading, executions? I agree that those things are effective on a populace. It’s called fear. You have a perverted idea of Freedom
     
  39. flcn3336

    flcn3336 Senior
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    Indoors. Near impossible to breath virus particles outside in a non-crowded environment, such as a park or a beach or a golf course or......

    From Vox, a source I think may carry some weight with some on here..
    Rasmussen and Kasten both noted that a perfect sequence of events has to happen for a virus to jump from an infected passerby outdoors to you. The particles — enough of them to be able to kickstart an infection — have to spray out of the passerby with enough force to make their way over to you. The virus inside the particles has to survive while sunlight, humidity, wind, and other forces work to decay and disperse them. The particles have to land right in your upper throat or respiratory tract — or on your hands, which you then use to touch your eyes, nose, or mouth — and they have to get past all the barriers to infection in the respiratory system, like nose hairs and mucus. Then they have to dock up with your cells’ ACE-2 receptors and use them to enter the cells.

    This is a pretty arduous sequence to execute properly, and it’s even more difficult for the virus if everyone involved — say, both you and the runner in front of you — is wearing a mask. You can see why, if you’re standing outdoors several feet away from an infected person, the virus might have a hard time making its way over to you at a high enough dose to actually infect you.

    https://www.vox.com/future-perfect/...rus-runners-cyclists-airborne-infectious-dose
     
    HillzHoozier likes this.
  40. outside shooter

    outside shooter Hall of Famer
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    Someone arguing with a resident of another country about what that country is like is kinda batshit crazy. It's like the POTUS lecturing Dr. Fauci on infectious disease practices.
     
    Thyrsis likes this.

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