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What is Trump covering up?

Rockfish1

Hall of Famer
Sep 2, 2001
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I don't know what Trump is covering up, but if he's not covering anything up he's an even bigger imbecile than I think he is. Given his behavior, it's hard for me to believe that there's nothing for a special counsel to find.

Everyone focuses on collusion with the Rooskies in their assault on our election, and maybe there's something there, at least among Trump's slimier aparatchiks like Michael Flynn, Paul Mannafort, and Carter Page. But I think Trump's real problem has to do with the sleazy financial world he's inhabited since his catastrophic 1990s bankruptcies cut him off from much of the legitimate financial sector. Josh Marshall has been all over this:

As you’ve seen, what I’ve been focused on in recent months are a series of business ventures over the last couple decades – either involving President Trump or his close associates – which seemed to rely on capital from people from the former Soviet Union or recent emigres from those countries. Trump himself, Felix Sater, Michael Cohen and many others figure into this as well as Manafort, Trump’s children, the Kushners and still others. My interest of course is to understand the roots of Trump’s affinity with the post-Soviet oligarch world and whatever financial ties or dependence he has on it. But even if you take the Russia/former Soviet Union connection with its geopolitical dynamics out of the equation, you simply can’t read over these deals and not see that Trump and his crew just play way out on the outer fringe of legality at best. At best. People who have done or subsequently did time in the US or other countries repeatedly appear in the picture. So do people from organized crime. A lot.

One thing you find looking through Trump’s history is that after his fall from financial grace a quarter century ago this pattern seemed to become part of the business model. Cut off from capital from the big banks and most people interested in not losing their money, he had to do business with people with decidedly sketchier reputations. Those people, often looking for places to park wealth in real estate, had to accept much higher levels of risk than people with clean reputations. That seemed to lead them to Trump.

Then there’s another level of it. Even apart from big bad acts and corrupt deals, look at the stuff David Fahrenthold dug up on the Trump Foundation and his Potemkin charitable giving. Beyond issues of possible illegality, the big takeaway there was that Trump operates with a seemingly almost total disregard for rule-following or even a lot of elementary record keeping. So on top of substantively shady deals things are executed in really slapdash and hazard ways. In other words, the Trump Organization sounds a lot like the Trump White House. Only it’s a private company, surrounded by a moat of NDAs, all examined by little more than the thin scrutiny of the New York tabloids.

Here are just a couple examples of some color from the kinds of associations and business dealings I’m talking about: one and two.

A forensic accountant would obviously be able to make more sense of the details and, in an investigative context, have access to a vastly greater number of those details. But even with a basic investigative reporting background, you can’t work through even part of Trump’s business history without finding numerous ventures that look like they would not survive first contact with real prosecutorial scrutiny. A key element, perhaps the key element, of the counter-intelligence probe is examining the financial ties between Trump, members of his entourage and people from the Russian business and intelligence worlds. So a close examination of those ventures isn’t some fishing expedition. It’s at the heart of the investigation. A close look at what is available in public records, court filings and news reporting makes me think that that kind of scrutiny would not end well for any of the people involved.
I suspect that Trump is deeply compromised by heavy reliance on dirty money, in large part from Russian oligarchs. I suspect that his dodgy financial dealings with shady counter parties would be deeply problematic if they were ever exposed. Admittedly, there are only sketchy news reports to confirm any parts of this. I'm mostly speculating here.

But again, it's hard for me to believe that Tump's obvious coverup isn't intended to cover anything up. I think there's something there, even if it isn't the something that's publicly identified. Pretty much everything he's said and done would make sense if he were financially compromised by Russian business partners he couldn't afford to acknowledge -- and therefore he had to shut down investigations that were dangerously adjacent to his secret dealings.

Admittedly I'm way out over my skis here. This is inferences and speculation from scattered stories that really aren't making news. I can't claim this is solidly sourced or well grounded. But it's what I suspect may be true, given Trump's history and current behavior.

In any event, I'd encourage those who scoff at the appointment of a special counsel to take a pause. Mueller can investigate virtually anything that arises out of what's known, and the history of independent counsel investigations runs far afield of here they begin. Trump should be worried if there's anything troublesome in the vicinity of these investigations -- and Trump looks for all the world like a deeply troubled man. I suspect there's a reason for that.
 
I don't know what Trump is covering up, but if he's not covering anything up he's an even bigger imbecile than I think he is. Given his behavior, it's hard for me to believe that there's nothing for a special counsel to find.

Everyone focuses on collusion with the Rooskies in their assault on our election, and maybe there's something there, at least among Trump's slimier aparatchiks like Michael Flynn, Paul Mannafort, and Carter Page. But I think Trump's real problem has to do with the sleazy financial world he's inhabited since his catastrophic 1990s bankruptcies cut him off from much of the legitimate financial sector. Josh Marshall has been all over this:

As you’ve seen, what I’ve been focused on in recent months are a series of business ventures over the last couple decades – either involving President Trump or his close associates – which seemed to rely on capital from people from the former Soviet Union or recent emigres from those countries. Trump himself, Felix Sater, Michael Cohen and many others figure into this as well as Manafort, Trump’s children, the Kushners and still others. My interest of course is to understand the roots of Trump’s affinity with the post-Soviet oligarch world and whatever financial ties or dependence he has on it. But even if you take the Russia/former Soviet Union connection with its geopolitical dynamics out of the equation, you simply can’t read over these deals and not see that Trump and his crew just play way out on the outer fringe of legality at best. At best. People who have done or subsequently did time in the US or other countries repeatedly appear in the picture. So do people from organized crime. A lot.

One thing you find looking through Trump’s history is that after his fall from financial grace a quarter century ago this pattern seemed to become part of the business model. Cut off from capital from the big banks and most people interested in not losing their money, he had to do business with people with decidedly sketchier reputations. Those people, often looking for places to park wealth in real estate, had to accept much higher levels of risk than people with clean reputations. That seemed to lead them to Trump.

Then there’s another level of it. Even apart from big bad acts and corrupt deals, look at the stuff David Fahrenthold dug up on the Trump Foundation and his Potemkin charitable giving. Beyond issues of possible illegality, the big takeaway there was that Trump operates with a seemingly almost total disregard for rule-following or even a lot of elementary record keeping. So on top of substantively shady deals things are executed in really slapdash and hazard ways. In other words, the Trump Organization sounds a lot like the Trump White House. Only it’s a private company, surrounded by a moat of NDAs, all examined by little more than the thin scrutiny of the New York tabloids.

Here are just a couple examples of some color from the kinds of associations and business dealings I’m talking about: one and two.

A forensic accountant would obviously be able to make more sense of the details and, in an investigative context, have access to a vastly greater number of those details. But even with a basic investigative reporting background, you can’t work through even part of Trump’s business history without finding numerous ventures that look like they would not survive first contact with real prosecutorial scrutiny. A key element, perhaps the key element, of the counter-intelligence probe is examining the financial ties between Trump, members of his entourage and people from the Russian business and intelligence worlds. So a close examination of those ventures isn’t some fishing expedition. It’s at the heart of the investigation. A close look at what is available in public records, court filings and news reporting makes me think that that kind of scrutiny would not end well for any of the people involved.
I suspect that Trump is deeply compromised by heavy reliance on dirty money, in large part from Russian oligarchs. I suspect that his dodgy financial dealings with shady counter parties would be deeply problematic if they were ever exposed. Admittedly, there are only sketchy news reports to confirm any parts of this. I'm mostly speculating here.

But again, it's hard for me to believe that Tump's obvious coverup isn't intended to cover anything up. I think there's something there, even if it isn't the something that's publicly identified. Pretty much everything he's said and done would make sense if he were financially compromised by Russian business partners he couldn't afford to acknowledge -- and therefore he had to shut down investigations that were dangerously adjacent to his secret dealings.

Admittedly I'm way out over my skis here. This is inferences and speculation from scattered stories that really aren't making news. I can't claim this is solidly sourced or well grounded. But it's what I suspect may be true, given Trump's history and current behavior.

In any event, I'd encourage those who scoff at the appointment of a special counsel to take a pause. Mueller can investigate virtually anything that arises out of what's known, and the history of independent counsel investigations runs far afield of here they begin. Trump should be worried if there's anything troublesome in the vicinity of these investigations -- and Trump looks for all the world like a deeply troubled man. I suspect there's a reason for that.

always follow the $ trail. Keep in mind trump sold a $95 mil palm beach mansion to a russian oligarch. His ties are knee deep. Also many Russians are buying up trump condos left and right. The russian dirty $ has been pouring into this country.

I'll take another angle and suggest there is also something fishy between trump and these middle east monarchs.
 
I don't know what Trump is covering up, but if he's not covering anything up he's an even bigger imbecile than I think he is. Given his behavior, it's hard for me to believe that there's nothing for a special counsel to find.

Everyone focuses on collusion with the Rooskies in their assault on our election, and maybe there's something there, at least among Trump's slimier aparatchiks like Michael Flynn, Paul Mannafort, and Carter Page. But I think Trump's real problem has to do with the sleazy financial world he's inhabited since his catastrophic 1990s bankruptcies cut him off from much of the legitimate financial sector. Josh Marshall has been all over this:

As you’ve seen, what I’ve been focused on in recent months are a series of business ventures over the last couple decades – either involving President Trump or his close associates – which seemed to rely on capital from people from the former Soviet Union or recent emigres from those countries. Trump himself, Felix Sater, Michael Cohen and many others figure into this as well as Manafort, Trump’s children, the Kushners and still others. My interest of course is to understand the roots of Trump’s affinity with the post-Soviet oligarch world and whatever financial ties or dependence he has on it. But even if you take the Russia/former Soviet Union connection with its geopolitical dynamics out of the equation, you simply can’t read over these deals and not see that Trump and his crew just play way out on the outer fringe of legality at best. At best. People who have done or subsequently did time in the US or other countries repeatedly appear in the picture. So do people from organized crime. A lot.

One thing you find looking through Trump’s history is that after his fall from financial grace a quarter century ago this pattern seemed to become part of the business model. Cut off from capital from the big banks and most people interested in not losing their money, he had to do business with people with decidedly sketchier reputations. Those people, often looking for places to park wealth in real estate, had to accept much higher levels of risk than people with clean reputations. That seemed to lead them to Trump.

Then there’s another level of it. Even apart from big bad acts and corrupt deals, look at the stuff David Fahrenthold dug up on the Trump Foundation and his Potemkin charitable giving. Beyond issues of possible illegality, the big takeaway there was that Trump operates with a seemingly almost total disregard for rule-following or even a lot of elementary record keeping. So on top of substantively shady deals things are executed in really slapdash and hazard ways. In other words, the Trump Organization sounds a lot like the Trump White House. Only it’s a private company, surrounded by a moat of NDAs, all examined by little more than the thin scrutiny of the New York tabloids.

Here are just a couple examples of some color from the kinds of associations and business dealings I’m talking about: one and two.

A forensic accountant would obviously be able to make more sense of the details and, in an investigative context, have access to a vastly greater number of those details. But even with a basic investigative reporting background, you can’t work through even part of Trump’s business history without finding numerous ventures that look like they would not survive first contact with real prosecutorial scrutiny. A key element, perhaps the key element, of the counter-intelligence probe is examining the financial ties between Trump, members of his entourage and people from the Russian business and intelligence worlds. So a close examination of those ventures isn’t some fishing expedition. It’s at the heart of the investigation. A close look at what is available in public records, court filings and news reporting makes me think that that kind of scrutiny would not end well for any of the people involved.
I suspect that Trump is deeply compromised by heavy reliance on dirty money, in large part from Russian oligarchs. I suspect that his dodgy financial dealings with shady counter parties would be deeply problematic if they were ever exposed. Admittedly, there are only sketchy news reports to confirm any parts of this. I'm mostly speculating here.

But again, it's hard for me to believe that Tump's obvious coverup isn't intended to cover anything up. I think there's something there, even if it isn't the something that's publicly identified. Pretty much everything he's said and done would make sense if he were financially compromised by Russian business partners he couldn't afford to acknowledge -- and therefore he had to shut down investigations that were dangerously adjacent to his secret dealings.

Admittedly I'm way out over my skis here. This is inferences and speculation from scattered stories that really aren't making news. I can't claim this is solidly sourced or well grounded. But it's what I suspect may be true, given Trump's history and current behavior.

In any event, I'd encourage those who scoff at the appointment of a special counsel to take a pause. Mueller can investigate virtually anything that arises out of what's known, and the history of independent counsel investigations runs far afield of here they begin. Trump should be worried if there's anything troublesome in the vicinity of these investigations -- and Trump looks for all the world like a deeply troubled man. I suspect there's a reason for that.
I think this is right and Trump is more deeply compromised because of business deals.
 
My theory is similar -- he is a money launder or a underworld venture capitalist/franchiser. I live in an area where this activities are very common with friends in the financial sector who have to just close an eye to all this activities.

Clearly Trump doesnt want his tax returns to come out for good reasons.

His troubles started back in the early 90s when as usual his ego got the better of him in the 80s and he over invested his cash reserves on casinos, NJ Generals, Eastern Airlines etc. He had to get money/cashflow somewhere to survive.

Luckily for him, there were lots of cash floating around in the former soviet countries that need to be cleansed. If you are in dire financial straits as he was back then, you take what you can get.

He used to be seen as incompetent in the 80s but I suspect his multiple bankruptcy has changed his personal business model into using 'other people's money' and more nefarious in its current form, now being managed by his kids.

This is my guess -- he has laundering model, an one of the best places for this is always in the real estate business, any where around the world.

He buys or 'build' properties using other people's money in return for a percentage.

Buy/selling properties -- why the properties are sold at huge profits in some cases 2-3 times the original prices? The profits are cleansed on the oligargh's behalf.

'Building properties' -- he doesn't build but really franchises the Trump brand -- some one build it to cleanse out his ill gotten gains and Trump brings in the 'investors' who also want to cleanse out their cash. I would be curious on the profitability of his 'properties' -- he always seems to 'overpay' for them -- and for good reasons.

Very common practice in the countries who are have looser laws particularly with the drug barons. He is like a venture cap -- he finds the 'investments' on these people's behalf and uses the Trump brand to shield the grey cash. Whey do you think he has some really dodgy partners on all the far flung reaches of the world.

Otherwise why cant he show his tax returns? Everyone else has. What is he hiding that he doesnt want people to dig into.

In a country as straight laced due to the IRS and legal rigidity/sanatised, its tough to see it. But when you live outside the States, things are very different. Trump has all the hallmarks of someone who is doing something nefarious.
 
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I know what he is trying to cover up! It's a huge bald spot on top of his head, that's why the comb over.
 
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I know what he is trying to cover up! It's a huge bald spot on top of his head, that's why the comb over.

Ye of little faith -- Is the weave of the future. He is just ahead of the fashion curve.

Just you wait Lucy, it will all the rage next spring season on the Milan Hairstyles convention.
 
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I don't know what Trump is covering up, but if he's not covering anything up he's an even bigger imbecile than I think he is. Given his behavior, it's hard for me to believe that there's nothing for a special counsel to find.

Everyone focuses on collusion with the Rooskies in their assault on our election, and maybe there's something there, at least among Trump's slimier aparatchiks like Michael Flynn, Paul Mannafort, and Carter Page. But I think Trump's real problem has to do with the sleazy financial world he's inhabited since his catastrophic 1990s bankruptcies cut him off from much of the legitimate financial sector. Josh Marshall has been all over this:

As you’ve seen, what I’ve been focused on in recent months are a series of business ventures over the last couple decades – either involving President Trump or his close associates – which seemed to rely on capital from people from the former Soviet Union or recent emigres from those countries. Trump himself, Felix Sater, Michael Cohen and many others figure into this as well as Manafort, Trump’s children, the Kushners and still others. My interest of course is to understand the roots of Trump’s affinity with the post-Soviet oligarch world and whatever financial ties or dependence he has on it. But even if you take the Russia/former Soviet Union connection with its geopolitical dynamics out of the equation, you simply can’t read over these deals and not see that Trump and his crew just play way out on the outer fringe of legality at best. At best. People who have done or subsequently did time in the US or other countries repeatedly appear in the picture. So do people from organized crime. A lot.

One thing you find looking through Trump’s history is that after his fall from financial grace a quarter century ago this pattern seemed to become part of the business model. Cut off from capital from the big banks and most people interested in not losing their money, he had to do business with people with decidedly sketchier reputations. Those people, often looking for places to park wealth in real estate, had to accept much higher levels of risk than people with clean reputations. That seemed to lead them to Trump.

Then there’s another level of it. Even apart from big bad acts and corrupt deals, look at the stuff David Fahrenthold dug up on the Trump Foundation and his Potemkin charitable giving. Beyond issues of possible illegality, the big takeaway there was that Trump operates with a seemingly almost total disregard for rule-following or even a lot of elementary record keeping. So on top of substantively shady deals things are executed in really slapdash and hazard ways. In other words, the Trump Organization sounds a lot like the Trump White House. Only it’s a private company, surrounded by a moat of NDAs, all examined by little more than the thin scrutiny of the New York tabloids.

Here are just a couple examples of some color from the kinds of associations and business dealings I’m talking about: one and two.

A forensic accountant would obviously be able to make more sense of the details and, in an investigative context, have access to a vastly greater number of those details. But even with a basic investigative reporting background, you can’t work through even part of Trump’s business history without finding numerous ventures that look like they would not survive first contact with real prosecutorial scrutiny. A key element, perhaps the key element, of the counter-intelligence probe is examining the financial ties between Trump, members of his entourage and people from the Russian business and intelligence worlds. So a close examination of those ventures isn’t some fishing expedition. It’s at the heart of the investigation. A close look at what is available in public records, court filings and news reporting makes me think that that kind of scrutiny would not end well for any of the people involved.
I suspect that Trump is deeply compromised by heavy reliance on dirty money, in large part from Russian oligarchs. I suspect that his dodgy financial dealings with shady counter parties would be deeply problematic if they were ever exposed. Admittedly, there are only sketchy news reports to confirm any parts of this. I'm mostly speculating here.

But again, it's hard for me to believe that Tump's obvious coverup isn't intended to cover anything up. I think there's something there, even if it isn't the something that's publicly identified. Pretty much everything he's said and done would make sense if he were financially compromised by Russian business partners he couldn't afford to acknowledge -- and therefore he had to shut down investigations that were dangerously adjacent to his secret dealings.

Admittedly I'm way out over my skis here. This is inferences and speculation from scattered stories that really aren't making news. I can't claim this is solidly sourced or well grounded. But it's what I suspect may be true, given Trump's history and current behavior.

In any event, I'd encourage those who scoff at the appointment of a special counsel to take a pause. Mueller can investigate virtually anything that arises out of what's known, and the history of independent counsel investigations runs far afield of here they begin. Trump should be worried if there's anything troublesome in the vicinity of these investigations -- and Trump looks for all the world like a deeply troubled man. I suspect there's a reason for that.

I wonder if Mueller has the authority to get Trump's tax returns as part of his investigation. I don't know if a warrant would have to be obtained and which court would be responsible for issuing the warrant.
 
I wonder if Mueller has the authority to get Trump's tax returns as part of his investigation. I don't know if a warrant would have to be obtained and which court would be responsible for issuing the warrant.

I think I heard on the news channels that he could or had the authority to open the case up further and beyond the Russian brotherhood conundrum.
 
I don't know what Trump is covering up, but if he's not covering anything up he's an even bigger imbecile than I think he is. Given his behavior, it's hard for me to believe that there's nothing for a special counsel to find.

Everyone focuses on collusion with the Rooskies in their assault on our election, and maybe there's something there, at least among Trump's slimier aparatchiks like Michael Flynn, Paul Mannafort, and Carter Page. But I think Trump's real problem has to do with the sleazy financial world he's inhabited since his catastrophic 1990s bankruptcies cut him off from much of the legitimate financial sector. Josh Marshall has been all over this:

As you’ve seen, what I’ve been focused on in recent months are a series of business ventures over the last couple decades – either involving President Trump or his close associates – which seemed to rely on capital from people from the former Soviet Union or recent emigres from those countries. Trump himself, Felix Sater, Michael Cohen and many others figure into this as well as Manafort, Trump’s children, the Kushners and still others. My interest of course is to understand the roots of Trump’s affinity with the post-Soviet oligarch world and whatever financial ties or dependence he has on it. But even if you take the Russia/former Soviet Union connection with its geopolitical dynamics out of the equation, you simply can’t read over these deals and not see that Trump and his crew just play way out on the outer fringe of legality at best. At best. People who have done or subsequently did time in the US or other countries repeatedly appear in the picture. So do people from organized crime. A lot.

One thing you find looking through Trump’s history is that after his fall from financial grace a quarter century ago this pattern seemed to become part of the business model. Cut off from capital from the big banks and most people interested in not losing their money, he had to do business with people with decidedly sketchier reputations. Those people, often looking for places to park wealth in real estate, had to accept much higher levels of risk than people with clean reputations. That seemed to lead them to Trump.

Then there’s another level of it. Even apart from big bad acts and corrupt deals, look at the stuff David Fahrenthold dug up on the Trump Foundation and his Potemkin charitable giving. Beyond issues of possible illegality, the big takeaway there was that Trump operates with a seemingly almost total disregard for rule-following or even a lot of elementary record keeping. So on top of substantively shady deals things are executed in really slapdash and hazard ways. In other words, the Trump Organization sounds a lot like the Trump White House. Only it’s a private company, surrounded by a moat of NDAs, all examined by little more than the thin scrutiny of the New York tabloids.

Here are just a couple examples of some color from the kinds of associations and business dealings I’m talking about: one and two.

A forensic accountant would obviously be able to make more sense of the details and, in an investigative context, have access to a vastly greater number of those details. But even with a basic investigative reporting background, you can’t work through even part of Trump’s business history without finding numerous ventures that look like they would not survive first contact with real prosecutorial scrutiny. A key element, perhaps the key element, of the counter-intelligence probe is examining the financial ties between Trump, members of his entourage and people from the Russian business and intelligence worlds. So a close examination of those ventures isn’t some fishing expedition. It’s at the heart of the investigation. A close look at what is available in public records, court filings and news reporting makes me think that that kind of scrutiny would not end well for any of the people involved.
I suspect that Trump is deeply compromised by heavy reliance on dirty money, in large part from Russian oligarchs. I suspect that his dodgy financial dealings with shady counter parties would be deeply problematic if they were ever exposed. Admittedly, there are only sketchy news reports to confirm any parts of this. I'm mostly speculating here.

But again, it's hard for me to believe that Tump's obvious coverup isn't intended to cover anything up. I think there's something there, even if it isn't the something that's publicly identified. Pretty much everything he's said and done would make sense if he were financially compromised by Russian business partners he couldn't afford to acknowledge -- and therefore he had to shut down investigations that were dangerously adjacent to his secret dealings.

Admittedly I'm way out over my skis here. This is inferences and speculation from scattered stories that really aren't making news. I can't claim this is solidly sourced or well grounded. But it's what I suspect may be true, given Trump's history and current behavior.

In any event, I'd encourage those who scoff at the appointment of a special counsel to take a pause. Mueller can investigate virtually anything that arises out of what's known, and the history of independent counsel investigations runs far afield of here they begin. Trump should be worried if there's anything troublesome in the vicinity of these investigations -- and Trump looks for all the world like a deeply troubled man. I suspect there's a reason for that.
I agree. The circumstantial evidence is overwhelming. He bends over backwards to not offend Putin, yet blasts everyone else, no matter the validity.

What are the chances that a president could pick a cabinet with so many ties to one country? His defenders claim his staunch affinity for loyalty. Why do so many, who are loyal to him, have these same connections? During the campaign, Rudy, Newt, and Christie, were all out front, loyal, and stuck their neck out for him, yet where are they now?

Point blank- he doesn't act like a guy who has nothing to hide. It's a shame he didn't come out and press for single payer, infrastructure, and true middle-class tax cuts. He had the potential to be one of the greatest presidents of the modern era. He even may have gotten away with it...whatever "it" is.
 
I don't know what Trump is covering up, but if he's not covering anything up he's an even bigger imbecile than I think he is. Given his behavior, it's hard for me to believe that there's nothing for a special counsel to find.

Everyone focuses on collusion with the Rooskies in their assault on our election, and maybe there's something there, at least among Trump's slimier aparatchiks like Michael Flynn, Paul Mannafort, and Carter Page. But I think Trump's real problem has to do with the sleazy financial world he's inhabited since his catastrophic 1990s bankruptcies cut him off from much of the legitimate financial sector. Josh Marshall has been all over this:

As you’ve seen, what I’ve been focused on in recent months are a series of business ventures over the last couple decades – either involving President Trump or his close associates – which seemed to rely on capital from people from the former Soviet Union or recent emigres from those countries. Trump himself, Felix Sater, Michael Cohen and many others figure into this as well as Manafort, Trump’s children, the Kushners and still others. My interest of course is to understand the roots of Trump’s affinity with the post-Soviet oligarch world and whatever financial ties or dependence he has on it. But even if you take the Russia/former Soviet Union connection with its geopolitical dynamics out of the equation, you simply can’t read over these deals and not see that Trump and his crew just play way out on the outer fringe of legality at best. At best. People who have done or subsequently did time in the US or other countries repeatedly appear in the picture. So do people from organized crime. A lot.

One thing you find looking through Trump’s history is that after his fall from financial grace a quarter century ago this pattern seemed to become part of the business model. Cut off from capital from the big banks and most people interested in not losing their money, he had to do business with people with decidedly sketchier reputations. Those people, often looking for places to park wealth in real estate, had to accept much higher levels of risk than people with clean reputations. That seemed to lead them to Trump.

Then there’s another level of it. Even apart from big bad acts and corrupt deals, look at the stuff David Fahrenthold dug up on the Trump Foundation and his Potemkin charitable giving. Beyond issues of possible illegality, the big takeaway there was that Trump operates with a seemingly almost total disregard for rule-following or even a lot of elementary record keeping. So on top of substantively shady deals things are executed in really slapdash and hazard ways. In other words, the Trump Organization sounds a lot like the Trump White House. Only it’s a private company, surrounded by a moat of NDAs, all examined by little more than the thin scrutiny of the New York tabloids.

Here are just a couple examples of some color from the kinds of associations and business dealings I’m talking about: one and two.

A forensic accountant would obviously be able to make more sense of the details and, in an investigative context, have access to a vastly greater number of those details. But even with a basic investigative reporting background, you can’t work through even part of Trump’s business history without finding numerous ventures that look like they would not survive first contact with real prosecutorial scrutiny. A key element, perhaps the key element, of the counter-intelligence probe is examining the financial ties between Trump, members of his entourage and people from the Russian business and intelligence worlds. So a close examination of those ventures isn’t some fishing expedition. It’s at the heart of the investigation. A close look at what is available in public records, court filings and news reporting makes me think that that kind of scrutiny would not end well for any of the people involved.
I suspect that Trump is deeply compromised by heavy reliance on dirty money, in large part from Russian oligarchs. I suspect that his dodgy financial dealings with shady counter parties would be deeply problematic if they were ever exposed. Admittedly, there are only sketchy news reports to confirm any parts of this. I'm mostly speculating here.

But again, it's hard for me to believe that Tump's obvious coverup isn't intended to cover anything up. I think there's something there, even if it isn't the something that's publicly identified. Pretty much everything he's said and done would make sense if he were financially compromised by Russian business partners he couldn't afford to acknowledge -- and therefore he had to shut down investigations that were dangerously adjacent to his secret dealings.

Admittedly I'm way out over my skis here. This is inferences and speculation from scattered stories that really aren't making news. I can't claim this is solidly sourced or well grounded. But it's what I suspect may be true, given Trump's history and current behavior.

In any event, I'd encourage those who scoff at the appointment of a special counsel to take a pause. Mueller can investigate virtually anything that arises out of what's known, and the history of independent counsel investigations runs far afield of here they begin. Trump should be worried if there's anything troublesome in the vicinity of these investigations -- and Trump looks for all the world like a deeply troubled man. I suspect there's a reason for that.

Bravo. You've nailed it (as usual).

Check out this link.

https://www.google.com/amp/mobile.reuters.com/article/amp/idUSKBN188314

It appears the senate intelligence committee will receive financial records from a unit of the treasury that investigates financial crimes (like money laundering).

Rachel Maddow had a segment on this a few weeks ago. It laid out everything you've mentioned in this post.

Trump is clearly trying to cover up something, and this connects all the dots.

This info + Trump always getting his way + his personality defects = a very troubling road ahead for he and his administration. Because he won't go down without swinging, and the investigations have a long way to go until they're fully played out. I just hope he doesn't drag the country down too far before it's all said and done.
 
Bravo. You've nailed it (as usual).

Check out this link.

https://www.google.com/amp/mobile.reuters.com/article/amp/idUSKBN188314

It appears the senate intelligence committee will receive financial records from a unit of the treasury that investigates financial crimes (like money laundering).

Rachel Maddow had a segment on this a few weeks ago. It laid out everything you've mentioned in this post.

Trump is clearly trying to cover up something, and this connects all the dots.

This info + Trump always getting his way + his personality defects = a very troubling road ahead for he and his administration. Because he won't go down without swinging, and the investigations have a long way to go until they're fully played out. I just hope he doesn't drag the country down too far before it's all said and done.

Check out The Dubious Friends of Donald Trump on YouTube
 
I do think this open-ended investigation will lead to some unpredictable and surprising results. If that will be enough to take down the Presidency, is way too much to expect, at this point.....but it's certainly not implausible to see occurring.

The major inherent weakness for Trump is his lack of political support from the Republican party. It's always been somewhere between tepid and hostile from GOP elected leaders (with a few exceptions). And now support of GOP voters is already down in the mid 70s (and strongly support is exceedingly weak).

So if the going gets tough...expect the party to quickly look to dump him and move on with Pence.
 
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I've always thought collusion would be difficult to prove and something more likely his staffers did for him. I'm not sure what his taxes would show, but there's obviously a reason he didn't want to show them. It's absurd that he got away without people absolutely demanding it. I've heard chatter of his connections with mobsters and money laundering for decades. Also, the information on the dossier I think has some particles of truth. It's going to be a long and winding road. No doubt he's hiding, but remains to be seen whether it's illegal or merely unsavory. Shame that some people elected to put ourselves through this.
 
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I've always thought collusion would be difficult to prove and something more likely his staffers did for him. I'm not sure what his taxes would show, but there's obviously a reason he didn't want to show them. It's absurd that he got away without people absolutely demanding it. I've heard chatter of his connections with mobsters and money laundering for decades. Also, the information on the dossier I think has some particles of truth. It's going to be a long and winding road. No doubt he's hiding, but remains to be seen whether it's illegal or merely unsavory. Shame that some people elected to put ourselves through this.

Collusion is not only difficult to prove, it isn't even a crime. The only conceivable violation would be Russian money in the Trump campaign. But I don't know if that is only a civil penalty or a crime, and I don't know if in-kind services counts as money.

As an aside, if anything comes of this, congress will probably try to draft a law or something. In these days of globalization and borderless economic and commercial interests, such a law would be difficult.

Brain teaser of the day:

If an illegal Mexican immigrant, or legal Mexican alien, worked on the Clinton campaign, should that be illegal? Same question for a Russian helping Trump.
 
If an illegal Mexican immigrant, or legal Mexican alien, worked on the Clinton campaign, should that be illegal? Same question for a Russian helping Trump.

But but but... Hillary! Man, this is really getting old.
 
But but but... Hillary! Man, this is really getting old.

Once again, you said nothing. That is getting old too. Do you have an answer, or even a talking point, about how foreigners living here should be involved in our campaigns?
 
I don't know what Trump is covering up, but if he's not covering anything up he's an even bigger imbecile than I think he is. Given his behavior, it's hard for me to believe that there's nothing for a special counsel to find.

Everyone focuses on collusion with the Rooskies in their assault on our election, and maybe there's something there, at least among Trump's slimier aparatchiks like Michael Flynn, Paul Mannafort, and Carter Page. But I think Trump's real problem has to do with the sleazy financial world he's inhabited since his catastrophic 1990s bankruptcies cut him off from much of the legitimate financial sector. Josh Marshall has been all over this:

As you’ve seen, what I’ve been focused on in recent months are a series of business ventures over the last couple decades – either involving President Trump or his close associates – which seemed to rely on capital from people from the former Soviet Union or recent emigres from those countries. Trump himself, Felix Sater, Michael Cohen and many others figure into this as well as Manafort, Trump’s children, the Kushners and still others. My interest of course is to understand the roots of Trump’s affinity with the post-Soviet oligarch world and whatever financial ties or dependence he has on it. But even if you take the Russia/former Soviet Union connection with its geopolitical dynamics out of the equation, you simply can’t read over these deals and not see that Trump and his crew just play way out on the outer fringe of legality at best. At best. People who have done or subsequently did time in the US or other countries repeatedly appear in the picture. So do people from organized crime. A lot.

One thing you find looking through Trump’s history is that after his fall from financial grace a quarter century ago this pattern seemed to become part of the business model. Cut off from capital from the big banks and most people interested in not losing their money, he had to do business with people with decidedly sketchier reputations. Those people, often looking for places to park wealth in real estate, had to accept much higher levels of risk than people with clean reputations. That seemed to lead them to Trump.

Then there’s another level of it. Even apart from big bad acts and corrupt deals, look at the stuff David Fahrenthold dug up on the Trump Foundation and his Potemkin charitable giving. Beyond issues of possible illegality, the big takeaway there was that Trump operates with a seemingly almost total disregard for rule-following or even a lot of elementary record keeping. So on top of substantively shady deals things are executed in really slapdash and hazard ways. In other words, the Trump Organization sounds a lot like the Trump White House. Only it’s a private company, surrounded by a moat of NDAs, all examined by little more than the thin scrutiny of the New York tabloids.

Here are just a couple examples of some color from the kinds of associations and business dealings I’m talking about: one and two.

A forensic accountant would obviously be able to make more sense of the details and, in an investigative context, have access to a vastly greater number of those details. But even with a basic investigative reporting background, you can’t work through even part of Trump’s business history without finding numerous ventures that look like they would not survive first contact with real prosecutorial scrutiny. A key element, perhaps the key element, of the counter-intelligence probe is examining the financial ties between Trump, members of his entourage and people from the Russian business and intelligence worlds. So a close examination of those ventures isn’t some fishing expedition. It’s at the heart of the investigation. A close look at what is available in public records, court filings and news reporting makes me think that that kind of scrutiny would not end well for any of the people involved.
I suspect that Trump is deeply compromised by heavy reliance on dirty money, in large part from Russian oligarchs. I suspect that his dodgy financial dealings with shady counter parties would be deeply problematic if they were ever exposed. Admittedly, there are only sketchy news reports to confirm any parts of this. I'm mostly speculating here.

But again, it's hard for me to believe that Tump's obvious coverup isn't intended to cover anything up. I think there's something there, even if it isn't the something that's publicly identified. Pretty much everything he's said and done would make sense if he were financially compromised by Russian business partners he couldn't afford to acknowledge -- and therefore he had to shut down investigations that were dangerously adjacent to his secret dealings.

Admittedly I'm way out over my skis here. This is inferences and speculation from scattered stories that really aren't making news. I can't claim this is solidly sourced or well grounded. But it's what I suspect may be true, given Trump's history and current behavior.

In any event, I'd encourage those who scoff at the appointment of a special counsel to take a pause. Mueller can investigate virtually anything that arises out of what's known, and the history of independent counsel investigations runs far afield of here they begin. Trump should be worried if there's anything troublesome in the vicinity of these investigations -- and Trump looks for all the world like a deeply troubled man. I suspect there's a reason for that.

When this and this are the kind of stuff that happens out in the open, one wonders what sorts of things are happening on those tax returns.
 
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If an illegal Mexican immigrant, or legal Mexican alien, worked on the Clinton campaign, should that be illegal? Same question for a Russian helping Trump.
No. As long as their activities with the campaign are legal, residents shouldn't be restricted from volunteering (or working for pay*) simply because of nationality.

I tend to agree with you that, if any part of any collusion that may have occurred was illegal, it is most likely to involve funding issues. However, in the case of a genuine campaign of collusion between a candidate and a foreign governmental actor, the solution is likely to be political (loss of reelection, or resignation/impeachment in the most egregious case) rather than criminal. When people talk about collusion, most of them (i.e., the knowledgeable ones) aren't imagining federal marshals putting Trump in handcuffs. They are imagining articles of impeachment being referred to House Judiciary.

* Although the working for pay thing would have its own issues in the case of an alien not authorized for employment, obviously.
 
I think this is right and Trump is more deeply compromised because of business deals.

Ha, you are DEAD WRONG...because, you have to actually believe in something to be truly compromised, & it is clear Trump has no set core beliefs about anything...except that he is one great hombre.
 
Once again, you said nothing. That is getting old too. Do you have an answer, or even a talking point, about how foreigners living here should be involved in our campaigns?
The thread topic concerns Trump and what he may or may not be covering up. It was 18 messages long and not a single word about Clinton (or Obama) until you chimed it with your usual "But but but... Hilary!" deflection. That is what gets old. Is it possible for you to not bring Hilary (or Obama) into every fracking thread you participate in?
 
The thread topic concerns Trump and what he may or may not be covering up. It was 18 messages long and not a single word about Clinton (or Obama) until you chimed it with your usual "But but but... Hilary!" deflection. That is what gets old. Is it possible for you to not bring Hilary (or Obama) into every fracking thread you participate in?
Aren't you embarrassed that you responded to him after you formed your opinion of him?
 
The thread topic concerns Trump and what he may or may not be covering up. It was 18 messages long and not a single word about Clinton (or Obama) until you chimed it with your usual "But but but... Hilary!" deflection. That is what gets old. Is it possible for you to not bring Hilary (or Obama) into every fracking thread you participate in?

You obviously aren't a Socratic learner. I asked a question. That's it. I used Hillary as a relevant hypothetical. I used her, though, because I have noticed a distinct double standard on many issues involving political campaigns. I tried to expose the double standard. Had I simply posed the question in terms of of a Russian legal resident helping Trump, many here would not have thought about that in the context of a Mexican living here helping Clinton. The nationality or candidate should not make a difference when thinking about foreign involvement in elections. I guess you would be happier if I used John Doe instead of Hilary and a native of Atlantis instead of Mexico. Consider it done.
 
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I don't know what Trump is covering up, but if he's not covering anything up he's an even bigger imbecile than I think he is. Given his behavior, it's hard for me to believe that there's nothing for a special counsel to find.

Everyone focuses on collusion with the Rooskies in their assault on our election, and maybe there's something there, at least among Trump's slimier aparatchiks like Michael Flynn, Paul Mannafort, and Carter Page. But I think Trump's real problem has to do with the sleazy financial world he's inhabited since his catastrophic 1990s bankruptcies cut him off from much of the legitimate financial sector. Josh Marshall has been all over this:

As you’ve seen, what I’ve been focused on in recent months are a series of business ventures over the last couple decades – either involving President Trump or his close associates – which seemed to rely on capital from people from the former Soviet Union or recent emigres from those countries. Trump himself, Felix Sater, Michael Cohen and many others figure into this as well as Manafort, Trump’s children, the Kushners and still others. My interest of course is to understand the roots of Trump’s affinity with the post-Soviet oligarch world and whatever financial ties or dependence he has on it. But even if you take the Russia/former Soviet Union connection with its geopolitical dynamics out of the equation, you simply can’t read over these deals and not see that Trump and his crew just play way out on the outer fringe of legality at best. At best. People who have done or subsequently did time in the US or other countries repeatedly appear in the picture. So do people from organized crime. A lot.

One thing you find looking through Trump’s history is that after his fall from financial grace a quarter century ago this pattern seemed to become part of the business model. Cut off from capital from the big banks and most people interested in not losing their money, he had to do business with people with decidedly sketchier reputations. Those people, often looking for places to park wealth in real estate, had to accept much higher levels of risk than people with clean reputations. That seemed to lead them to Trump.

Then there’s another level of it. Even apart from big bad acts and corrupt deals, look at the stuff David Fahrenthold dug up on the Trump Foundation and his Potemkin charitable giving. Beyond issues of possible illegality, the big takeaway there was that Trump operates with a seemingly almost total disregard for rule-following or even a lot of elementary record keeping. So on top of substantively shady deals things are executed in really slapdash and hazard ways. In other words, the Trump Organization sounds a lot like the Trump White House. Only it’s a private company, surrounded by a moat of NDAs, all examined by little more than the thin scrutiny of the New York tabloids.

Here are just a couple examples of some color from the kinds of associations and business dealings I’m talking about: one and two.

A forensic accountant would obviously be able to make more sense of the details and, in an investigative context, have access to a vastly greater number of those details. But even with a basic investigative reporting background, you can’t work through even part of Trump’s business history without finding numerous ventures that look like they would not survive first contact with real prosecutorial scrutiny. A key element, perhaps the key element, of the counter-intelligence probe is examining the financial ties between Trump, members of his entourage and people from the Russian business and intelligence worlds. So a close examination of those ventures isn’t some fishing expedition. It’s at the heart of the investigation. A close look at what is available in public records, court filings and news reporting makes me think that that kind of scrutiny would not end well for any of the people involved.
I suspect that Trump is deeply compromised by heavy reliance on dirty money, in large part from Russian oligarchs. I suspect that his dodgy financial dealings with shady counter parties would be deeply problematic if they were ever exposed. Admittedly, there are only sketchy news reports to confirm any parts of this. I'm mostly speculating here.

But again, it's hard for me to believe that Tump's obvious coverup isn't intended to cover anything up. I think there's something there, even if it isn't the something that's publicly identified. Pretty much everything he's said and done would make sense if he were financially compromised by Russian business partners he couldn't afford to acknowledge -- and therefore he had to shut down investigations that were dangerously adjacent to his secret dealings.

Admittedly I'm way out over my skis here. This is inferences and speculation from scattered stories that really aren't making news. I can't claim this is solidly sourced or well grounded. But it's what I suspect may be true, given Trump's history and current behavior.

In any event, I'd encourage those who scoff at the appointment of a special counsel to take a pause. Mueller can investigate virtually anything that arises out of what's known, and the history of independent counsel investigations runs far afield of here they begin. Trump should be worried if there's anything troublesome in the vicinity of these investigations -- and Trump looks for all the world like a deeply troubled man. I suspect there's a reason for that.
As a tangent to all that, I'm surprised the conversation hasn't shifted a bit as to what's in each party's political interest. Mueller's investigation will likely take quite a bit of time. It's not a 'three weeks from now' sort of process. If it's going to be, say, 18 months, what does that mean for the 2018 elections? The 2020 elections? It's horrible for the country, but Democrats (as forecasted today) might do really well in two consecutive Congressional election cycles if Trump survives until 2020. (And yes, circumstances could lead to 8 years of Trump, but just taking the critical view as of today). Impeachment is a difficult and sadly partisan effort. I'd think the odds are against it knowing only what we know today. If things continue on anything remotely like the current trend for Trump, it's easy to predict that he might ruin two consecutive election cycles for Republicans. Yet, they're still effectively giving tepid support. What's their end game?
 
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I do think this open-ended investigation will lead to some unpredictable and surprising results. If that will be enough to take down the Presidency, is way too much to expect, at this point.....but it's certainly not implausible to see occurring.

The major inherent weakness for Trump is his lack of political support from the Republican party. It's always been somewhere between tepid and hostile from GOP elected leaders (with a few exceptions). And now support of GOP voters is already down in the mid 70s (and strongly support is exceedingly weak).

So if the going gets tough...expect the party to quickly look to dump him and move on with Pence.
This is such a difficult thing to predict. FiveThirtyEight had a good article last week looking at Watergate, Iran-Contra, and Whitewater, and demonstrated how unlikely it was for a president's own party in Congress to abandon him (even with Nixon, it was only after the smoking gun tape that there appeared to be enough support in the Senate for removal). But Trump is unique in that he doesn't have the strong relationship with his own party that those other presidents enjoyed.

Parenthesis: And on cue, Nate Silver has a long essay today that tries to examine the likelihood of Trump not surviving his first term. It's not intended as a mathematical model, but he still feels the need to at least zero in on a range (perhaps forgetting his previous big misstep when it comes to Trump), which he puts at somewhere between 25-50%.

I still think the odds are much longer than that. But we'll have to see how it unfolds. This is such a unique presidency, and the issue we are discussing doesn't have enough historical precedent for rigorous analysis, so in many ways, we're learning in real time as it happens.
 
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You obviously aren't a Socratic learner. I asked a question. That's it. I used Hillary as a relevant hypothetical. I used her, though, because I have noticed a distinct double standard on many issues involving political campaigns. I tried to expose the double standard. Had I simply posed the question in terms of of a Russian legal resident helping Trump, many here would not have thought about that in the context of a Mexican living here helping Clinton. The nationality or candidate should not make a difference when thinking about foreign involvement in elections. I guess you would be happier if I used John Doe instead of Hilary and a native of Atlantis instead of Mexico. Consider it done.
If your intention was to expose a double standard, it probably would have been better to start with the Russian alien campaign worker, and only shift to Hillary's Mexican volunteer after getting some answers.

I did answer your question above, BTW.
 
Collusion is not only difficult to prove, it isn't even a crime. The only conceivable violation would be Russian money in the Trump campaign. But I don't know if that is only a civil penalty or a crime, and I don't know if in-kind services counts as money.

As an aside, if anything comes of this, congress will probably try to draft a law or something. In these days of globalization and borderless economic and commercial interests, such a law would be difficult.

Brain teaser of the day:

If an illegal Mexican immigrant, or legal Mexican alien, worked on the Clinton campaign, should that be illegal? Same question for a Russian helping Trump.
Would it be a crime/collusion, if a surrogate coordinated with the hackers, with regards to the leaking of the stolen emails? I.e. timing of the leaks.
 
If your intention was to expose a double standard, it probably would have been better to start with the Russian alien campaign worker, and only shift to Hillary's Mexican volunteer after getting some answers.

I did answer your question above, BTW.

Well, I think the question as I posed it is better. Mark's approach to the question is kinda like a law student answering the relevant proximate cause question in Palsgraff by questioning, how could the scale be tipped over like that? (Inside baseball here).
 
Well, I think the question as I posed it is better. Mark's approach to the question is kinda like a law student answering the relevant proximate cause question in Palsgraff by questioning, how could the scale be tipped over like that? (Inside baseball here).
The reason I suggest your form of the question was not better was that you changed three variables at once: the party in question, the type of foreign actor, and the relationship between the foreign actor and the campaign. If you want to expose a double standard, you need to change only the first variable. So, it would have been better for you to work toward a Russia-based hypothetical that was directly analogous to your Mexico-based hypothetical, and then switch parties, instead of making all those changes at once.
 
Would it be a crime/collusion, if a surrogate coordinated with the hackers, with regards to the leaking of the stolen emails? I.e. timing of the leaks.

Dirty tricks have been part of campaigns for a long time. I don't think those are criminal.* Are you suggesting that dirty tricks are different if done by foreigners?

*I assume stealing the emails might be a cybercrime. But once they are out there, is deciding the timing for their use a crime?
 
Are you suggesting that dirty tricks are different if done by foreigners?

For the sake of argument, I'll assume - without conceding - your initial assertion that dirty tricks are "normal" campaign operating procedure.

In regards to your question above, yes. Hell yes.
 
Speaking of dirty tricks, that Roger Stone doc was truly eye opening. I know they had Lee Atwater before that. Who is the Dem equivalent? Surely we have someone in that area of expertise.
 
Speaking of dirty tricks, that Roger Stone doc was truly eye opening. I know they had Lee Atwater before that. Who is the Dem equivalent? Surely we have someone in that area of expertise.
Probably the one they killed on the streets of DC
 
As a tangent to all that, I'm surprised the conversation hasn't shifted a bit as to what's in each party's political interest. Mueller's investigation will likely take quite a bit of time. It's not a 'three weeks from now' sort of process. If it's going to be, say, 18 months, what does that mean for the 2018 elections? The 2020 elections? It's horrible for the country, but Democrats (as forecasted today) might do really well in two consecutive Congressional election cycles if Trump survives until 2020. (And yes, circumstances could lead to 8 years of Trump, but just taking the critical view as of today). Impeachment is a difficult and sadly partisan effort. I'd think the odds are against it knowing only what we know today. If things continue on anything remotely like the current trend for Trump, it's easy to predict that he might ruin two consecutive election cycles for Republicans. Yet, they're still effectively giving tepid support. What's their end game?
I suspect that both Republicans and Democrats are hanging in there waiting to see what comes. Even during Watergate Republicans didn't conclusively break from Nixon until the tapes came out, and that Congress was much less partisan than this one is.

Unless and until Democrats take the House, there likely won't be an impeachment, and I can't currently conceive of a Senate that would cast 67 votes to convict. Maybe Trump will blunder into something fatal, but I'd guess that something like Iran-Contra is a more probable outcome than something like Watergate. Having said so, Reagan stumbled into Iran-Contra toward the end of his second term, and not during his first four months. Trump has a long time to make things worse, and he doesn't have anything like Reagan's team to support him.

Let me just emphasize one point. The situation for Trump is currently bad, but a capable administration could work its way out of even this over time. Again, Trump has a Republican Congress to protect him. The real question is whether he is capable of not sabotaging himself. I suspect he's in real trouble because he never could and can't now. However bad things are now, I suspect they'll be worse later. But that's guesswork and not evidence.
 
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