What do evangelicals believe these days

[Marvin the Martian]

From electoral-vote.com:

In any case, we are not the only ones to notice that many evangelical Christians do not appear to be practicing what they preach. The Washington Post's Michael Gerson, himself an evangelical, published an op-ed on Tuesday taking his fellow white evangelical Protestants (WEPs) to task. He observes that their embrace of violence, hatred of immigrants, tolerance for corruption, and willingness to treat the Ten Commandments as optional for some people are all quite un-Christian. What these things are, however, is very Trump-like. "Rather than shaping President Trump's agenda in Christian ways, they have been reshaped into the image of Trump himself," Gerson says. He continues:

The result has properly been called cultlike. For many followers, Trump has defined an alternative, insular universe of facts and values that only marginally resembles our own. According to the PRRI poll, nearly two-thirds of WEPs deny that Trump has damaged the dignity of his office. Ponder that a moment. Well over half of this group is willing to deny a blindingly obvious, entirely irrefutable, manifestly clear reality because it is perceived as being critical of their leader. Forty-seven percent of WEPs say that Trump's behavior makes no difference to their support. Thirty-one percent say there is almost nothing that Trump could do to forfeit their approval. This is preemptive permission for any violation of the moral law or the constitutional order. It is not support; it is obeisance.
The most staggering number, perhaps, is the one that Gerson closes with: 99 percent of WEPs oppose impeachment in all circumstances.

The choice that the WEPs have made here—a devil's bargain, if you will—is yet another case of prioritizing short-term gain over long-term pain. With Trump in the Oval Office, they will get their judges, and they will get their funding cuts for things like Planned Parenthood. They might even be able to curtail abortion rights (though that may not be so easy, after all, as a federal judge just struck down Alabama's draconian abortion ban). But someday soon, and maybe very soon, Donald Trump will leave office. His executive orders will be overturned, his funding priorities reversed. His judges will pretty quickly be a small minority in the federal judiciary, and then will fade away entirely. Meanwhile, older members of the evangelical movement are dying off and are not being replaced by younger ones. Most young evangelicals are either abandoning religion entirely, or else are embracing an inclusive, tolerant, charity-based interpretation of the New Testament. You know, something that sounds kinda like Jesus' ministry.​

Above is only part of the article. But I think that bottom part, about the demographics, is the interesting part. The evangelicals better enjoy this ride, speaking on behalf of everyone else we are going to have even less interest in what they say going forward. Imagine if "thirty-one percent say there is almost nothing that Trump could do to forfeit their approval" had the word Trump replaced by the word Obama and was about liberals?

 

[iu_a_att]

The choice that the WEPs have made here—a devil's bargain, if you will—​

Many, many months ago I asked VanPastor about what scripture tells us about bargains with the devil. I thought that as a man of the cloth he might provide important stories for us to reflect upon. He never answered. I think these stories are worth reflecting on in the age of Trump.​

 

[Cream&Crimson]

In any case, we are not the only ones to notice that many evangelical Christians do not appear to be practicing what they preach

Having been raised in a family that faithfully attended Evangelical churches my whole childhood, and having continued to attend such for a period after becoming an adult, I would say that observation is nothing new.

 

[IUCrazy2]

Having been raised in a family that faithfully attended Evangelical churches my whole childhood, and having continued to attend such for a period after becoming an adult, I would say that observation is nothing new.

Literally no one can 100% practice what is preached on any Christian church. That is kind of the point behind the faith.

As to the rest, Trump is a devil and so are the Democrats. It is not like a choice is being made between a virtuous party who happens to do some things you disagree with and a scumbag who does some things you agree with, it really comes down to a bunch of scumbags run this country. Furthermore, this board is a daily example of why WEP's are so loathe to vote for Democrats, the party literally does whatever it can to antagonize people. "Just wait until you all die out and get what's coming to you..."

Respectfully, many of you all have zero understanding of how that narrative plays exactly into their beliefs of what the secular world has in store for them. Democrats (the party) suck at religion. They suck at talking to religious people. They suck at respecting religious viewpoints. They suck at defending some of the core principles that underpin the religious freedoms and protections that were built into our system of government.

Trump and the people that voted for him did not develop in a vacuum. Whenever talk of black people not voting for Republicans pops up and instead you see them voting for crooks in their community, you don't see the blame put on them for not looking at the alternative. No, the blame gets put on policies and rhetoric in the Republican Party that makes them uneasy. Same logic applies here. WEP's aren't going to run out and vote for people they feel are openly hostile to them...even if that means having to throw support behind an extremely fallible person. Trump is a blip in time, he'll go away. The real issue is that the commonalities that used to bind us as citizens of this country have been eroded. There are 2 Americas and those 2 Americas, while they do share many cultural similarities, have some very intractable differences where compromise is not easy.

 

[Cortez88]

Literally no one can 100% practice what is preached on any Christian church. That is kind of the point behind the faith.

As to the rest, Trump is a devil and so are the Democrats. It is not like a choice is being made between a virtuous party who happens to do some things you disagree with and a scumbag who does some things you agree with, it really comes down to a bunch of scumbags run this country. Furthermore, this board is a daily example of why WEP's are so loathe to vote for Democrats, the party literally does whatever it can to antagonize people. "Just wait until you all die out and get what's coming to you..."

Respectfully, many of you all have zero understanding of how that narrative plays exactly into their beliefs of what the secular world has in store for them. Democrats (the party) suck at religion. They suck at talking to religious people. They suck at respecting religious viewpoints. They suck at defending some of the core principles that underpin the religious freedoms and protections that were built into our system of government.

Trump and the people that voted for him did not develop in a vacuum. Whenever talk of black people not voting for Republicans pops up and instead you see them voting for crooks in their community, you don't see the blame put on them for not looking at the alternative. No, the blame gets put on policies and rhetoric in the Republican Party that makes them uneasy. Same logic applies here. WEP's aren't going to run out and vote for people they feel are openly hostile to them...even if that means having to throw support behind an extremely fallible person. Trump is a blip in time, he'll go away. The real issue is that the commonalities that used to bind us as citizens of this country have been eroded. There are 2 Americas and those 2 Americas, while they do share many cultural similarities, have some very intractable differences where compromise is not easy.

Why do you say Trump (not the GOP) and all Democrats are the devil? Trump is an individual and one could easily identify a bevy of deeds that he has committed that could lead one to conclude that he is a bad person. You cannot reasonably do the same across a larger group such as the Democrats. It’s both false equivalence and unfair IMO.

 

[Cream&Crimson]

Democrats (the party) suck at religion. They suck at talking to religious people. They suck at respecting religious viewpoints. They suck at defending some of the core principles that underpin the religious freedoms and protections that were built into our system of government.

Wrong. Just, wrong.

 

[Cortez88]

Wrong. Just, wrong.

Crazy what are these religious freedoms and protection that you believe the Democrats are failing to defend?

 

[Marvin the Martian]

Literally no one can 100% practice what is preached on any Christian church. That is kind of the point behind the faith.

As to the rest, Trump is a devil and so are the Democrats. It is not like a choice is being made between a virtuous party who happens to do some things you disagree with and a scumbag who does some things you agree with, it really comes down to a bunch of scumbags run this country. Furthermore, this board is a daily example of why WEP's are so loathe to vote for Democrats, the party literally does whatever it can to antagonize people. "Just wait until you all die out and get what's coming to you..."

Respectfully, many of you all have zero understanding of how that narrative plays exactly into their beliefs of what the secular world has in store for them. Democrats (the party) suck at religion. They suck at talking to religious people. They suck at respecting religious viewpoints. They suck at defending some of the core principles that underpin the religious freedoms and protections that were built into our system of government.

Trump and the people that voted for him did not develop in a vacuum. Whenever talk of black people not voting for Republicans pops up and instead you see them voting for crooks in their community, you don't see the blame put on them for not looking at the alternative. No, the blame gets put on policies and rhetoric in the Republican Party that makes them uneasy. Same logic applies here. WEP's aren't going to run out and vote for people they feel are openly hostile to them...even if that means having to throw support behind an extremely fallible person. Trump is a blip in time, he'll go away. The real issue is that the commonalities that used to bind us as citizens of this country have been eroded. There are 2 Americas and those 2 Americas, while they do share many cultural similarities, have some very intractable differences where compromise is not easy.

What did Trump offer WEPs that a Cruz or any other R not offer? What does he offer now that other potential R candidates not offer? On judges and taxes he was hardly a voice in the wilderness.

 

[UncleMark]

What did Trump offer WEPs that a Cruz or any other R not offer? What does he offer now that other potential R candidates not offer? On judges and taxes he was hardly a voice in the wilderness.

Pwn the libs.

 

[Rockfish1]

Literally no one can 100% practice what is preached on any Christian church. That is kind of the point behind the faith.

As to the rest, Trump is a devil and so are the Democrats. It is not like a choice is being made between a virtuous party who happens to do some things you disagree with and a scumbag who does some things you agree with, it really comes down to a bunch of scumbags run this country. Furthermore, this board is a daily example of why WEP's are so loathe to vote for Democrats, the party literally does whatever it can to antagonize people. "Just wait until you all die out and get what's coming to you..."

Respectfully, many of you all have zero understanding of how that narrative plays exactly into their beliefs of what the secular world has in store for them. Democrats (the party) suck at religion. They suck at talking to religious people. They suck at respecting religious viewpoints. They suck at defending some of the core principles that underpin the religious freedoms and protections that were built into our system of government.

Trump and the people that voted for him did not develop in a vacuum. Whenever talk of black people not voting for Republicans pops up and instead you see them voting for crooks in their community, you don't see the blame put on them for not looking at the alternative. No, the blame gets put on policies and rhetoric in the Republican Party that makes them uneasy. Same logic applies here. WEP's aren't going to run out and vote for people they feel are openly hostile to them...even if that means having to throw support behind an extremely fallible person. Trump is a blip in time, he'll go away. The real issue is that the commonalities that used to bind us as citizens of this country have been eroded. There are 2 Americas and those 2 Americas, while they do share many cultural similarities, have some very intractable differences where compromise is not easy.

The complaint isn't that white evangelical Protestants vote Republican. The complaint is that white evangelical Protestants are the most deplorable of the Deplorables. That they give Trump blind obeisance -- exemplified by 99 percent of them saying they wouldn't impeach him under any circumstances. That they have created a fact-free fantasy world to enable their delusions. That they believe every one of Trump's blatant lies and spout those lies themselves. That their magical thinking allows them to believe fantastical nonsense whenever their willful credulity suits them. That they disregard all that they profess when it comes to Trump and have made a Faustian bargain that they themselves deny. That they will tear down laws, norms, and even the truth to support Trump. And this is even before we get to all their generalized ignorance and fear and prejudice -- for which they blame God -- and all the terrible policies they support.

The complaint is not that Trumpbot white evangelical Protestants are Republicans. The complaint is that they are malignant kooks. There is nothing Christian about them. They are deplorable. I hope no Democrat lifts a finger to attract their support.

 

[twenty02]

From electoral-vote.com:

In any case, we are not the only ones to notice that many evangelical Christians do not appear to be practicing what they preach. The Washington Post's Michael Gerson, himself an evangelical, published an op-ed on Tuesday taking his fellow white evangelical Protestants (WEPs) to task. He observes that their embrace of violence, hatred of immigrants, tolerance for corruption, and willingness to treat the Ten Commandments as optional for some people are all quite un-Christian. What these things are, however, is very Trump-like. "Rather than shaping President Trump's agenda in Christian ways, they have been reshaped into the image of Trump himself," Gerson says. He continues:

The result has properly been called cultlike. For many followers, Trump has defined an alternative, insular universe of facts and values that only marginally resembles our own. According to the PRRI poll, nearly two-thirds of WEPs deny that Trump has damaged the dignity of his office. Ponder that a moment. Well over half of this group is willing to deny a blindingly obvious, entirely irrefutable, manifestly clear reality because it is perceived as being critical of their leader. Forty-seven percent of WEPs say that Trump's behavior makes no difference to their support. Thirty-one percent say there is almost nothing that Trump could do to forfeit their approval. This is preemptive permission for any violation of the moral law or the constitutional order. It is not support; it is obeisance.
The most staggering number, perhaps, is the one that Gerson closes with: 99 percent of WEPs oppose impeachment in all circumstances.

The choice that the WEPs have made here—a devil's bargain, if you will—is yet another case of prioritizing short-term gain over long-term pain. With Trump in the Oval Office, they will get their judges, and they will get their funding cuts for things like Planned Parenthood. They might even be able to curtail abortion rights (though that may not be so easy, after all, as a federal judge just struck down Alabama's draconian abortion ban). But someday soon, and maybe very soon, Donald Trump will leave office. His executive orders will be overturned, his funding priorities reversed. His judges will pretty quickly be a small minority in the federal judiciary, and then will fade away entirely. Meanwhile, older members of the evangelical movement are dying off and are not being replaced by younger ones. Most young evangelicals are either abandoning religion entirely, or else are embracing an inclusive, tolerant, charity-based interpretation of the New Testament. You know, something that sounds kinda like Jesus' ministry.​

Above is only part of the article. But I think that bottom part, about the demographics, is the interesting part. The evangelicals better enjoy this ride, speaking on behalf of everyone else we are going to have even less interest in what they say going forward. Imagine if "thirty-one percent say there is almost nothing that Trump could do to forfeit their approval" had the word Trump replaced by the word Obama and was about liberals?

Evangelicals.... by the nature of being evangelicals.... are extremists. As such, that they flock to another extremist shouldn't surprise anyone. They are a bizarre group that exists basically only in America, and right wing politics are heavily intertwined with their existence. Most see no difference or need for a defining line between politics and Christianity, whatsoever... that they go hand in hand.

This is also likely the largest group of humanity on earth that doesn't believe in evolution. You just don't see that kind of belief system showing up anywhere else.

Most believe that Trump is an imperfect soldier of God, and is doing the lord's work here on Earth. Many believe there is a global holy war around the corner (this is closely in line with the public words used by the current Secretary of State.)

I've had many tell me, in person, that the fact that Muslims are allowed in Congress is appalling to them..... that they couldn't believe that would be allowed... and they are likely terrorist sympathizers.

These are overall very odd people when it comes to politics and religion (but can act very normal outside of these areas), and when they do their required evangelism to me, I politely nod, smile, then head to refill my drink asap.

 

[TheOriginalHappyGoat]

This might be an appropriate place to remind people that sloppy reporting of this recent poll has given the wrong impression about exactly who this demographic we are talking about really is. Evangelical Protestants are not some monolithic group of crazy extremists. They are more conservative than most other religious groups, to be sure, but they still have among them quite a bit of political diversity. Hell, 28% of them are Democrats.

The group actually under discussion here, according to the fine print in the poll that various reporters apparently missed, isn't evangelical Protestants. It's evangelical Protestants who also happen to be both white and Republican. That's the group that is 99% opposed to impeaching Trump. That's the group that worships him as a modern Jesus.

Although evangelical Protestants are, as I said above, relatively conservative compared to most other religious groups in America, they still fall on the spectrum of normal distribution. It's only when you add "white Republican" to the label that they become nearly monolithic. I daresay the adjectives "white" and "Republican" may be just as important - if not moreso - than the adjectives "Protestant" or "evangelical."

 

[Rockfish1]

This might be an appropriate place to remind people that sloppy reporting of this recent poll has given the wrong impression about exactly who this demographic we are talking about really is. Evangelical Protestants are not some monolithic group of crazy extremists. They are more conservative than most other religious groups, to be sure, but they still have among them quite a bit of political diversity. Hell, 28% of them are Democrats.

The group actually under discussion here, according to the fine print in the poll that various reporters apparently missed, isn't evangelical Protestants. It's evangelical Protestants who also happen to be both white and Republican. That's the group that is 99% opposed to impeaching Trump. That's the group that worships him as a modern Jesus.

Although evangelical Protestants are, as I said above, relatively conservative compared to most other religious groups in America, they still fall on the spectrum of normal distribution. It's only when you add "white Republican" to the label that they become nearly monolithic. I daresay the adjectives "white" and "Republican" may be just as important - if not moreso - than the adjectives "Protestant" or "evangelical."

It's always a mistake to say that all of any group are the same, but it's equally a mistake to deny what the numbers tell us -- that white evangelical Protestants are Trump's most fervent supporters. By all means let's allow that there are white evangelical Protestants who aren't ignorant Trumpbot lunatics. But let's not pretend that white evangelical Protestants don't comprise the core of the Deplorables. They absolutely do. And it's bullshit for IUCrazy to blame Democrats for this.

 

[TheOriginalHappyGoat]

It's always a mistake to say that all of any group are the same, but it's equally a mistake to deny what the numbers tell us -- that white evangelical Protestants are Trump's most fervent supporters. By all means let's allow that there are white evangelical Protestants who aren't ignorant Trumpbot lunatics. But let's not pretend that white evangelical Protestants don't comprise the core of the Deplorables. They absolutely do. And it's bullshit for IUCrazy to blame Democrats for this.

White evangelical Protestants don't just comprise the core of the Deplorables. They also comprise the core of the Republican party writ large. They are the largest religious demographic in the party (Catholics are a distant second, and they're only even that close because there are a shit ton of Catholics).

This is why many of us have said since 2015 that Trump wasn't taking over the Republican party as much as he was created by it. Which speaks to the point I was ultimately hinting at: whatever's wrong with white evangelical Protestant Republicans, the numbers suggest that it's not wholly to be found in their status as evangelical or Protestant. There's much more going on there. Trump didn't invent the rot of the GOP, and the evangelicals didn't bring the infection with them. It was already there.

 

[Rockfish1]

White evangelical Protestants don't just comprise the core of the Deplorables. They also comprise the core of the Republican party writ large. They are the largest religious demographic in the party (Catholics are a distant second, and they're only even that close because there are a shit ton of Catholics).

This is why many of us have said since 2015 that Trump wasn't taking over the Republican party as much as he was created by it.

That's fine, but it's a different quibble, and I don't understand why you're focused on the quibbling. White evangelical Protestants are in fact the deplorables at the core of Trump's support, and as I told IUCrazy, the problem isn't that they tend to vote Republican, but that they tend to be malignant kooks. As Thyrsis suggested in another thread, I don't understand the need to extrapolate away from this real current problem into esoteric discussions of just exactly who is a WEP and what precisely are the numbers on their lunacy.

 

[TheOriginalHappyGoat]

That's fine, but it's a different quibble, and I don't understand why you're focused on the quibbling. White evangelical Protestants are in fact the deplorables at the core of Trump's support, and as I told IUCrazy, the problem isn't that they tend to vote Republican, but that they tend to be malignant kooks. As Thyrsis suggested in another thread, I don't understand the need to extrapolate away from this real current problem into esoteric discussions of just exactly who is a WEP and what precisely are the numbers on their lunacy.

The problem is confusing two different groups of people. The kooks are the white evangelical Protestant Republicans. Too many people are oversimplifying them to "evangelical Protestants," which isn't fair to many millions of Americans who are that, but aren't kooks. You, at least, recognized the divide between white and black evangelicals. But most don't seem to even be doing that.

And it's not a quibble. Not being sufficiently precise on this point is only one step short of saying the problem is that Christians are kooks, which isn't exactly a winning strategy.

 

[twenty02]

The problem is confusing two different groups of people. The kooks are the white evangelical Protestant Republicans. Too many people are oversimplifying them to "evangelical Protestants," which isn't fair to many millions of Americans who are that, but aren't kooks. You, at least, recognized the divide between white and black evangelicals. But most don't seem to even be doing that.

And it's not a quibble. Not being sufficiently precise on this point is only one step short of saying the problem is that Christians are kooks, which isn't exactly a winning strategy.

The key point is evangelicals use their religion as a tool to propagate their political views. Their religion doesn't shape their political views, but vice versa. It's why expecting any kind of consistent message from these groups is totally foolhardy. And why it shouldn't be surprising to anyone that the Republican version support Trump at such high levels.

 

[Rockfish1]

The problem is confusing two different groups of people. The kooks are the white evangelical Protestant Republicans. Too many people are oversimplifying them to "evangelical Protestants," which isn't fair to many millions of Americans who are that, but aren't kooks. You, at least, recognized the divide between white and black evangelicals. But most don't seem to even be doing that.

And it's not a quibble. Not being sufficiently precise on this point is only one step short of saying the problem is that Christians are kooks, which isn't exactly a winning strategy.

I am not fundamentally a Democrat, I am fundamentally a liberal. From that perspective it regularly galls me that the only vehicle that will conceivably advance my goals is a Democratic Party that lives in a defensive crouch and regards quibbling as the major mode of internal communication and hand-wringing as the major mode of external communication. I get that I am not the norm, but a lot of what "Democrats" fret about strikes me as naive silliness. And I say this as someone who really does care about getting the details right.

 

[Morrison]

The key point is evangelicals use their religion as a tool to propagate their political views. Their religion doesn't shape their political views, but vice versa. It's why expecting any kind of consistent message from these groups is totally foolhardy. And why it shouldn't be surprising to anyone that the Republican version support Trump at such high levels.

Exactly. That’s why Goat explicitly points out that REPUBLICAN evangelicals support Trump 99%, no matter what. Think VPM. As you say, they conform their spiritual beliefs to coincide with their political beliefs, whereas an evangelical Democrat may do the opposite.

 

[TheOriginalHappyGoat]

I am not fundamentally a Democrat, I am fundamentally a liberal. From that perspective it regularly galls me that the only vehicle that will conceivably advance my goals is a Democratic Party that lives in a defensive crouch and regards quibbling as the major mode of internal communication and hand-wringing as the major mode of external communication. I get that I am not the norm, but a lot of what "Democrats" fret about strikes me as naive silliness. And I say this as someone who really does care about getting the details right.

This is why I am somewhat surprised that you'd take issue with my desire for precision. Look, according to Pew, 13% of people who identify as liberal are evangelical Protestants. Of those, 60% are white. It's not only the black evangelicals who are on the left.

You and I used to agree that liberals would be smart to accept that Joe Manchin is the best we can do in West Virginia. Coalitions are for winners; purity tests are for losers. It seems obvious to me that the same understanding demands we don't paint religious groups with too broad a brush. I agree with you - and have stated many times - that the white evangelical Trumpists are people that the Democratic party should absolutely not waste time trying to appeal to. But that doesn't mean we need to throw the baby out with the bathwater. There are white evangelicals already in the liberal coalition. Let's turn our backs on the Trumpists, for sure, but let's not accidentally turn our backs on our fellow liberals at the same time.

 

[twenty02]

Exactly. That’s why Goat explicitly points out that REPUBLICAN evangelicals support Trump 99%, no matter what. Think VPM. As you say, they conform their spiritual beliefs to coincide with their political beliefs, whereas an evangelical Democrat may do the opposite.

I'm assuming that most evangelical Democrats are black baptists, but I really don't know. I can't say I've ever met a white, liberal evangelical.... though the numbers say this mythical person does exist. I'm guessing these are young folks raised in the church, but with much different views than their parents.

 

[TheOriginalHappyGoat]

I'm assuming that most evangelical Democrats are black baptists, but I really don't know. I can't say I've ever met a white, liberal evangelical.... though the numbers say this mythical person does exist. I'm guessing these are young folks raised in the church, but with much different views than their parents.

Somewhat counterintuitively, it's just the opposite. Liberal evangelicals are much more likely to be older.

 

[Rockfish1]

This is why I am somewhat surprised that you'd take issue with my desire for precision. Look, according to Pew, 13% of people who identify as liberal are evangelical Protestants. Of those, 60% are white. It's not only the black evangelicals who are on the left.

You and I used to agree that liberals would be smart to accept that Joe Manchin is the best we can do in West Virginia. Coalitions are for winners; purity tests are for losers. It seems obvious to me that the same understanding demands we don't paint religious groups with too broad a brush. I agree with you - and have stated many times - that the white evangelical Trumpists are people that the Democratic party should absolutely not waste time trying to appeal to. But that doesn't mean we need to throw the baby out with the bathwater. There are white evangelicals already in the liberal coalition. Let's turn our backs on the Trumpists, for sure, but let's not accidentally turn our backs on our fellow liberals at the same time.

We still agree about Joe Manchin, I'm not arguing for ideological purity, and I've read the same studies that you cite. But I've had way too much of Democrats who focus on modulating beer-drinking baseball fans' political mockery and flyspecking their own sides' political claims, as though this sort of purity of thought made a goddamn bit of difference to anyone. And I say this as one who understands exactly what the distinctions are.

In any event, I'm not going to modulate my criticism of loony white evangelical Protestants in the hope that this will encourage noncrazy white evangelical Protestants to vote for the "electable" Democrat. Since I'm just some guy posting on the Internets, I'm going to say what I think, based on the facts. And the facts say that Trump has no fans like white evangelical Protestants who are awful for exactly the reasons I say. You're fooling yourself if you think rebuking me will attract their votes.

 

[TheOriginalHappyGoat]

We still agree about Joe Manchin, I'm not arguing for ideological purity, and I've read the same studies that you cite. But I've had way too much of Democrats who focus on modulating beer-drinking baseball fans' political mockery and flyspecking their own sides' political claims, as though this sort of purity of thought made a goddamn bit of difference to anyone. And I say this as one who understands exactly what the distinctions are.

In any event, I'm not going to modulate my criticism of loony white evangelical Protestants in the hope that this will encourage noncrazy white evangelical Protestants to vote for the "electable" Democrat. Since I'm just some guy posting on the Internets, I'm going to say what I think, based on the facts. And the facts say that Trump has no fans like white evangelical Protestants who are awful for exactly the reasons I say. You're fooling yourself if you think rebuking me will attract their votes.

I'm not rebuking you, and I don't think what we say here will change any votes. I'm just discussing what I think is and is not accurate, and what I think is and is not smart political strategy. I think you know me well enough that I'm not one of those "centristy centrists" you despise so much. I'm just offering what I think is a valid take on the issues we're discussing. It almost seems like that angers you, and I don't get why.

I don't think you need to modulate your criticism. But if some liberal with a national audience said what you often say, I'd think that was detrimental to the cause, and I'd hope they'd modulate theirs.

 

[Rockfish1]

I'm not rebuking you, and I don't think what we say here will change any votes. I'm just discussing what I think is and is not accurate, and what I think is and is not smart political strategy. I think you know me well enough that I'm not one of those "centristy centrists" you despise so much. I'm just offering what I think is a valid take on the issues we're discussing. It almost seems like that angers you, and I don't get why.

I don't think you need to modulate your criticism. But if some liberal with a national audience said what you often say, I'd think that was detrimental to the cause, and I'd hope they'd modulate theirs.

If the complaint is that it's only 99 percent of Republican WEPs who'd afford Trump the Fifth Avenue defense, then okay, but notwithstanding the quibbling, WEPs are the beating heart of Trump's base, and they support him like a god even though his impeachment would give them Mike Pence -- who actually is the pious little prig they'd ostensibly prefer. Yet still they prefer Trump.

But sure. This isn't true about a small fraction of them. And it's really important that we emphasize that small fraction even though they won't ever vote for a Democrat, because some of them might, and as every right-thinking Democrat knows, the best place to go looking for Democratic votes is among people who implacably aren't Democrats. And the last thing Democrats should ever do is offend not-Democrats, even if that means boring actual Democrats to sleep.

I apologize, because I'm really not aiming this at you or anyone else in particular, but I'm really frustrated by what I see as effete thought about how to beat Trump. Even Gary Cooper didn't show up to the gunfight with a covered dish.

 

[TheOriginalHappyGoat]

But sure. This isn't true about a small fraction of them. And it's really important that we emphasize that small fraction even though they won't ever vote for a Democrat, because some of them might, and as every right-thinking Democrat knows, the best place to go looking for Democratic votes is among people who implacably aren't Democrats. And the last thing Democrats should ever do is offend not-Democrats, even if that means boring actual Democrats to sleep.

I fear you missed my point. My problem with painting with too broad a brush is that when you do so, you aren't turning off a "small fraction" who "won't ever vote for a Democrat." You are turning off the quarter of them who are already f*cking Democrats.

Forgive me the bold and italicized type. I'm not angry with you. Just exhausted with my inability to get this extremely simple point across.

 

[twenty02]

If the complaint is that it's only 99 percent of Republican WEPs who'd afford Trump the Fifth Avenue defense, then okay, but notwithstanding the quibbling, WEPs are the beating heart of Trump's base, and they support him like a god even though his impeachment would give them Mike Pence -- who actually is the pious little prig they'd ostensibly prefer. Yet still they prefer Trump.

But sure. This isn't true about a small fraction of them. And it's really important that we emphasize that small fraction even though they won't ever vote for a Democrat, because some of them might, and as every right-thinking Democrat knows, the best place to go looking for Democratic votes is among people who implacably aren't Democrats. And the last thing Democrats should ever do is offend not-Democrats, even if that means boring actual Democrats to sleep.

I apologize, because I'm really not aiming this at you or anyone else in particular, but I'm really frustrated by what I see as effete thought about how to beat Trump. Even Gary Cooper didn't show up to the gunfight with a covered dish.

Of course the major political problem of your position would be the glaring issue of the United State Senate. The GOP has done a better job of big tenting themselves than Democrats have for a very long while.

Hell, Trump half co-opd the long- term Dem message, with rampant, emotional based economic populism and foreign isolationism, which was the Dems bread and butter for most of my adult life.

He turned everything on its head.... in a very bad way from my viewpoint. Now the Dems really don't know which way to go, or who to even appeal to.

There's no natural majority, other than the majority that think Trump is an unfit buffoon. Which might well be enough to beat him, but isn't really setting up for any type of governing consensus.

 

[37Hoosier]

From electoral-vote.com:

In any case, we are not the only ones to notice that many evangelical Christians do not appear to be practicing what they preach. The Washington Post's Michael Gerson, himself an evangelical, published an op-ed on Tuesday taking his fellow white evangelical Protestants (WEPs) to task. He observes that their embrace of violence, hatred of immigrants, tolerance for corruption, and willingness to treat the Ten Commandments as optional for some people are all quite un-Christian. What these things are, however, is very Trump-like. "Rather than shaping President Trump's agenda in Christian ways, they have been reshaped into the image of Trump himself," Gerson says. He continues:

The result has properly been called cultlike. For many followers, Trump has defined an alternative, insular universe of facts and values that only marginally resembles our own. According to the PRRI poll, nearly two-thirds of WEPs deny that Trump has damaged the dignity of his office. Ponder that a moment. Well over half of this group is willing to deny a blindingly obvious, entirely irrefutable, manifestly clear reality because it is perceived as being critical of their leader. Forty-seven percent of WEPs say that Trump's behavior makes no difference to their support. Thirty-one percent say there is almost nothing that Trump could do to forfeit their approval. This is preemptive permission for any violation of the moral law or the constitutional order. It is not support; it is obeisance.
The most staggering number, perhaps, is the one that Gerson closes with: 99 percent of WEPs oppose impeachment in all circumstances.

The choice that the WEPs have made here—a devil's bargain, if you will—is yet another case of prioritizing short-term gain over long-term pain. With Trump in the Oval Office, they will get their judges, and they will get their funding cuts for things like Planned Parenthood. They might even be able to curtail abortion rights (though that may not be so easy, after all, as a federal judge just struck down Alabama's draconian abortion ban). But someday soon, and maybe very soon, Donald Trump will leave office. His executive orders will be overturned, his funding priorities reversed. His judges will pretty quickly be a small minority in the federal judiciary, and then will fade away entirely. Meanwhile, older members of the evangelical movement are dying off and are not being replaced by younger ones. Most young evangelicals are either abandoning religion entirely, or else are embracing an inclusive, tolerant, charity-based interpretation of the New Testament. You know, something that sounds kinda like Jesus' ministry.​

Above is only part of the article. But I think that bottom part, about the demographics, is the interesting part. The evangelicals better enjoy this ride, speaking on behalf of everyone else we are going to have even less interest in what they say going forward. Imagine if "thirty-one percent say there is almost nothing that Trump could do to forfeit their approval" had the word Trump replaced by the word Obama and was about liberals?

It depends on the day, they can shift their moral code as quickly as needed on any given day. Just another pedestrian group of hypocrites.

 

[Marvin the Martian]

Goat's post that 28% of evangelicals are Democrats seems to dispute the notion that Democrats are anti religion. I will add that in 2016 a majority of Jewish and "other religious affiliation" voted Clinton.

 

[Cortez88]

Goat's post that 28% of evangelicals are Democrats seems to dispute the notion that Democrats are anti religion. I will add that in 2016 a majority of Jewish and "other religious affiliation" voted Clinton.

Thats an important point Marvin. That’s part of the issue I personally have with many evangelicals, they are the only religious ones. Many are distrustful of Muslims. Many harbor anti Semitic thoughts. Hell the used to hate Catholics.

It’s clearly not some war on the atheists. Many are intolerant of those with different faiths.

 

[IUCrazy2]

Many are intolerant of those with different faiths.

 

[Cortez88]

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I am not being negative to WEPs because of their faith. Absolutely not. I find the hypocrisy and malleability of that faith to gain short term political gains problematic.

I would like to hear your response to my question about the alleged attacks on religious freedoms. I personally do not see them and would like to understand your viewpoint.

 

[CradleofBasketball]

View embedded media

This is one of those cathartic, echo-chamber threads where a narrative is imposed on a group of people and supported by loaded language in an op-ed with important references to an obviously clear-headed individual breaking ranks with said group. Strikingly important rhetorical questions and affirmative observations are being generated from the material and seriously considered by serious actors. Fight the urge to reply, Crazy. Fight the urge...

 

[Digressions]

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Is judging the judgmental, hypocrisy? Is being intolerant of intolerance, irony? Where do you draw the line? I look down on white supremacists. Does that make me a white supremacist-ist in your world? If so, I'm okay with that.

Evangelicals and the GOP made a grand bargain. The GOP gave up Libertarianism and invited Evangelicals into our bedrooms. Likewise, Evangelicals chose to cast their lot with a party that would like to rid themselves of a social safety net, and prevent any new ones from forming. Of which, I would argue, is closest to Jesus' teachings.

Christianity in politics used to be about social welfare and taking care of our brethren. Now it's about "preventing evil"-from abortion to gay rights.

Evangelical leaders fly around in their private jets, headed to their megachurches, preaching against all the sins of the flesh, with nary a word about a camel or a needle. And they have chosen to worship at the feet of the most amoral man I could imagine.

My advice to WEP's would be to worry about their own salvation and quit trying to legislate people to heaven. And when my judgement day comes, if the worst thing I've done is pointed out their hypocrisy and their hate, I like my chances.

Note: I realize not all members of the evangelical congregation agree with their leadership, and should be considered a diverse group.

...Just wanted to make that clear in case my judgement day comes sooner rather than later.

 

[twenty02]

Is judging the judgmental, hypocrisy? Is being intolerant of intolerance, irony? Where do you draw the line? I look down on white supremacists. Does that make me a white supremacist-ist in your world? If so, I'm okay with that.

Evangelicals and the GOP made a grand bargain. The GOP gave up Libertarianism and invited Evangelicals into our bedrooms. Likewise, Evangelicals chose to cast their lot with a party that would like to rid themselves of a social safety net, and prevent any new ones from forming. Of which, I would argue, is closest to Jesus' teachings.

Christianity in politics used to be about social welfare and taking care of our brethren. Now it's about "preventing evil"-from abortion to gay rights.

Evangelical leaders fly around in their private jets, headed to their megachurches, preaching against all the sins of the flesh, with nary a word about a camel or a needle. And they have chosen to worship at the feet of the most amoral man I could imagine.

My advice to WEP's would be to worry about their own salvation and quit trying to legislate people to heaven. And when my judgement day comes, if the worst thing I've done is pointed out their hypocrisy and their hate, I like my chances.

Note: I realize not all members of the evangelical congregation agree with their leadership, and should be considered a diverse group.

...Just wanted to make that clear in case my judgement day comes sooner rather than later.

This isn't a new idea.... Ben Howe (a conservative evangelical formally of RedState....before being fired for writing anti-Trump pieces) wrote an entire book on this topic.

Amazon product ASIN 0062797115

 

[TheOriginalHappyGoat]

Goat's post that 28% of evangelicals are Democrats seems to dispute the notion that Democrats are anti religion. I will add that in 2016 a majority of Jewish and "other religious affiliation" voted Clinton.

A majority of Democrats believe in God, say religion is somewhat or very important in their lives, attend church at least monthly, and pray at least weekly. The narrative that Democrats are the party of atheism is a false one, perpetrated by Republicans, and, sadly, probably not pushed back against hard enough by too many Democrats with a national voice.

 

[IUPaterade724]

A majority of Democrats believe in God, say religion is somewhat or very important in their lives, attend church at least monthly, and pray at least weekly. The narrative that Democrats are the party of atheism is a false one, perpetrated by Republicans, and, sadly, probably not pushed back against hard enough by too many Democrats with a national voice.

And this is a big problem for me because most rational christians dont feel governemnt jobs should be given to extremists with a religious angenda. It is sad at how far into the dark ages a fundamental government could take us. Everyone has the right to religion but the separation of church and state is there for a reason. The U.S. isnt conpromised of WEP's. It's comprised of all freedom of religion. evengelicals will do anything in their power to nominate a governemnt that will put them above all the rest. If you need examples just take a look at who runs heads of departments and how incompetant they are at their job. They use the ignorant masses to get in a frenzy over how unfair they persecute WEP's and to understand there is a war coming. This often will lead to violence.

In the name of their idea of God. Keep it on Sunday and leave departments in charge with scientists or leaders of industry that have been removed for a certain amount of time. Im sick of evangelicals who have stadiums to worship in bitch and complaining like they are the ones being villified. Its not happening in a vacuum. There are scholars, scientists, life long politicians that see they are trying to take over a government and run it as something other that a democracy. And Trump is their useful idiot. Its scares me. How far will they go. Obama, you know the black president that is treated like vile scum by the extremists in the most underserving of these attacks. And yet, a clear goal is to whipe him from history books. Nothing in my life had been close to this hostility over the last 10 years of social media which has amplified the xenophobic racist rhetoric.

 

[iu_a_att]

Its scares me. How far will they go.

I am scared too. There are zero bounds on what they will let Trump do to hold power.

 

[TheOriginalHappyGoat]

And this is a big problem for me because most rational christians dont feel governemnt jobs should be given to extremists with a religious angenda. It is sad at how far into the dark ages a fundamental government could take us. Everyone has the right to religion but the separation of church and state is there for a reason. The U.S. isnt conpromised of WEP's. It's comprised of all freedom of religion. evengelicals will do anything in their power to nominate a governemnt that will put them above all the rest. If you need examples just take a look at who runs heads of departments and how incompetant they are at their job. They use the ignorant masses to get in a frenzy over how unfair they persecute WEP's and to understand there is a war coming. This often will lead to violence.

In the name of their idea of God. Keep it on Sunday and leave departments in charge with scientists or leaders of industry that have been removed for a certain amount of time. Im sick of evangelicals who have stadiums to worship in bitch and complaining like they are the ones being villified. Its not happening in a vacuum. There are scholars, scientists, life long politicians that see they are trying to take over a government and run it as something other that a democracy. And Trump is their useful idiot. Its scares me. How far will they go. Obama, you know the black president that is treated like vile scum by the extremists in the most underserving of these attacks. And yet, a clear goal is to whipe him from history books. Nothing in my life had been close to this hostility over the last 10 years of social media which has amplified the xenophobic racist rhetoric.

I think you've hit on something important here. In every religious group, there are some people who think society should be ordered according to their own beliefs. Among evangelical Protestants, that particular group has been invited in by the Republican party's adoption of their social policies and general hostility to the Establishment Clause. That could help explain why the WEPs in the Republican camp stand out as so different from other religious groups and even other evangelicals in their devotion to Trump.

 

[Marvin the Martian]

I think you've hit on something important here. In every religious group, there are some people who think society should be ordered according to their own beliefs. Among evangelical Protestants, that particular group has been invited in by the Republican party's adoption of their social policies and general hostility to the Establishment Clause. That could help explain why the WEPs in the Republican camp stand out as so different from other religious groups and even other evangelicals in their devotion to Trump.

I think conservative Christians perceive that liberals do not like conservative CHRISTIANS. Rather the issue is with CONSERVATIVE Christian.