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Watching an IU game from 1997-1998 and what could have been on paper.

GeorgeStrait IU

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Apr 10, 2005
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Wilkerson would have been a 5th year senior. Reed a senior.

On Paper:
Soph: Jason Collier 7'0. MCD AA
Sr: Andre Patterson 6'9". MCD AA
fr: Luke Recker 6'6". MCD AA
sr: Sherron Wilkerson. 6'4". MCD AA
sr: Neil Reed. 6'3" MCD AA

6- sr: Charlie Miller. 6'7". Top 50 kid
7- so: Some kid named AJ Guyton. 6'1"
8- 5th yr sr Richard Mandeville 7'0"
9- sr: William Gladness. 6'8"
10 so: Michael Lewis. 6'2"
11 sr: Robbie Eggers. 6'10"
12 jr: Rob Turner. 6'4"
13 so: Larry Richardson 6'8"

I think this would have been the roster had all stayed intact. Wow, As much as talent as anyone on paper. Legit top 10 team on paper. Crazy thinking about what that team could have been if the 94-95 class hadnt started the downfall for coach. 🤷‍♂️
 
Michael Hermon. He was the starting PG as a freshman in the 94-95 season and left the team by the end of the season.. Also you are leaving off Rob Hodgson who was a heralded 6'7" shooter from the east coast and and a very prolific high school scorer. He played 2 seasons then I think he transferred to Rutgers.

I guess while we are at it, there was 6'5" athlete Lou Moore, who barely played before leaving. Chris Rawles transferred in for 95-96 but I think he was out of eligibility by 97-98.

It was a brutal few years of constant transfers. Little did I know those would end up being the good old days when we didn't need a run at the end of the season to avoid finishing 12th.
 
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Wilkerson would have been a 5th year senior. Reed a senior.

On Paper:
Soph: Jason Collier 7'0. MCD AA
Sr: Andre Patterson 6'9". MCD AA
fr: Luke Recker 6'6". MCD AA
sr: Sherron Wilkerson. 6'4". MCD AA
sr: Neil Reed. 6'3" MCD AA

6- sr: Charlie Miller. 6'7". Top 50 kid
7- so: Some kid named AJ Guyton. 6'1"
8- 5th yr sr Richard Mandeville 7'0"
9- sr: William Gladness. 6'8"
10 so: Michael Lewis. 6'2"
11 sr: Robbie Eggers. 6'10"
12 jr: Rob Turner. 6'4"
13 so: Larry Richardson 6'8"

I think this would have been the roster had all stayed intact. Wow, As much as talent as anyone on paper. Legit top 10 team on paper. Crazy thinking about what that team could have been if the 94-95 class hadnt started the downfall for coach. 🤷‍♂️
Very true. It was a shame but having three straight Burger Boys transfer really hurt.

On a side note it’s sad that three of those guys (Collier, Reed and Gladness) passed away before turning 40.
 
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Michael Hermon. He was the starting PG as a freshman in the 94-95 season and left the team by the end of the season.. Also you are leaving off Rob Hodgson who was a heralded 6'7" shooter from the east coast and and a very prolific high school scorer. He played 2 seasons then I think he transferred to Rutgers.

I guess while we are at it, there was 6'5" athlete Lou Moore, who barely played before leaving. Chris Rawles transferred in for 95-96 but I think he was out of eligibility by 97-98.

It was a brutal few years of constant transfers. Little did I know those would end up being the good old days when we didn't need a run at the end of the season to avoid finishing 12th.
Slight correction. Hodgson never played a minute for IU. He redshirted his freshman year (94-95) and left during that same year.
 
Wilkerson would have been a 5th year senior. Reed a senior.

On Paper:
Soph: Jason Collier 7'0. MCD AA
Sr: Andre Patterson 6'9". MCD AA
fr: Luke Recker 6'6". MCD AA
sr: Sherron Wilkerson. 6'4". MCD AA
sr: Neil Reed. 6'3" MCD AA

6- sr: Charlie Miller. 6'7". Top 50 kid
7- so: Some kid named AJ Guyton. 6'1"
8- 5th yr sr Richard Mandeville 7'0"
9- sr: William Gladness. 6'8"
10 so: Michael Lewis. 6'2"
11 sr: Robbie Eggers. 6'10"
12 jr: Rob Turner. 6'4"
13 so: Larry Richardson 6'8"

I think this would have been the roster had all stayed intact. Wow, As much as talent as anyone on paper. Legit top 10 team on paper. Crazy thinking about what that team could have been if the 94-95 class hadnt started the downfall for coach. 🤷‍♂️
1 NBA player, would have been a decent team
 
Wilkerson would have been a 5th year senior. Reed a senior.

On Paper:
Soph: Jason Collier 7'0. MCD AA
Sr: Andre Patterson 6'9". MCD AA
fr: Luke Recker 6'6". MCD AA
sr: Sherron Wilkerson. 6'4". MCD AA
sr: Neil Reed. 6'3" MCD AA

6- sr: Charlie Miller. 6'7". Top 50 kid
7- so: Some kid named AJ Guyton. 6'1"
8- 5th yr sr Richard Mandeville 7'0"
9- sr: William Gladness. 6'8"
10 so: Michael Lewis. 6'2"
11 sr: Robbie Eggers. 6'10"
12 jr: Rob Turner. 6'4"
13 so: Larry Richardson 6'8"

I think this would have been the roster had all stayed intact. Wow, As much as talent as anyone on paper. Legit top 10 team on paper. Crazy thinking about what that team could have been if the 94-95 class hadnt started the downfall for coach. 🤷‍♂️
Sad to think three players from that list are dead.
 
I remember how getting Turner was such a welcome to fill a void at guard. He didn't score a lot but he did a bit of everything to help those 2 years.
 
The Patterson, Reid, Miller class was the start of "times had passed coach bye." Coach didn't want to recruit anymore. Dakich had Raef LaFrenz and Joque Vaughn ready to go and Coach went on a fishing trip. Showed up at Montross house by himself once in hunting clothes with muddy boots. UNC multiple times, 3 deep in a limo.

Old stories, well known.
 
The Patterson, Reid, Miller class was the start of "times had passed coach bye." Coach didn't want to recruit anymore. Dakich had Raef LaFrenz and Joque Vaughn ready to go and Coach went on a fishing trip. Showed up at Montross house by himself once in hunting clothes with muddy boots. UNC multiple times, 3 deep in a limo.

Old stories, well known.
when he shot Vince Carter's dog because he thought it was a mountain lion someone should have reeled him in
 
The Patterson, Reid, Miller class was the start of "times had passed coach bye." Coach didn't want to recruit anymore. Dakich had Raef LaFrenz and Joque Vaughn ready to go and Coach went on a fishing trip. Showed up at Montross house by himself once in hunting clothes with muddy boots. UNC multiple times, 3 deep in a limo.

Old stories, well known.
I thought I was old enough to have lived through all the old stories, but I guess some slipped by me. Have these stories, tales perhaps, been varied by anyone but Dakich? Was it Dakich who told you Lafentz and Vaughn were “locked up” until Knight went fishing? Did he have a scheduled meeting with the two that he blew off or were they told ahead of time not to expect him that weekend? Did Dakich not handle his absence well by saying the wrong thing about Knight “gone fish’in”? Regarding Knight’s home visit at the Montross house, had Bob told the family to expect someone else with him for the meeting? Is it considered in poor taste to show up alone? If he had worn a bolo tie, what would the Montross’ have thought then? Did Bob soil their white shag carpet with his muddy boots and ignore the cleaning bill they mailed him? Did he smell of bee moths and earthworms when the garden peas were being passed? Please tell this old man more of these “well known”, old stories.
 
Michael Hermon. He was the starting PG as a freshman in the 94-95 season and left the team by the end of the season.. Also you are leaving off Rob Hodgson who was a heralded 6'7" shooter from the east coast and and a very prolific high school scorer. He played 2 seasons then I think he transferred to Rutgers.

I guess while we are at it, there was 6'5" athlete Lou Moore, who barely played before leaving. Chris Rawles transferred in for 95-96 but I think he was out of eligibility by 97-98.

It was a brutal few years of constant transfers. Little did I know those would end up being the good old days when we didn't need a run at the end of the season to avoid finishing 12th.
I understand those names. Just trying to peg them where had two of those players had stayed. Thinking because Hodgson didnt last til opening practice and Herman an academic casualty. Your point stands though.
 
These were the years when the cracks in the foundation really started to open up and become more obvious. The list of really talented players that left the program ended up being too long for them ALL to have been the problem. IU basketball started its decline in the mid 90s, well before the firing in 01.
 
I've wondered what what have come of the team in 01/02 or so if Knight had been able to stay around. The talent was there again. I think he could still reach kids in those days since he had some success at TT after that.
 
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I've wondered what what have come of the team in 01/02 or so if Knight had been able to stay around. The talent was there again. I think he could still reach kids in those days since he had some success at TT after that.
Impossible to know. Knight would have coached them very differently. And there are unanswerable questions about who would have even been on the team. Would JJ have been able to deal with RMK's coaching style? Its assumed by RMK loyalists that he would have...why? There were quite a lot of really good basketball playing kids, that originally committed to RMK because they "wanted" to be coached that way...that ultimately couldn't handle it and left in his last 5-6 years. Same with anyone else on that roster? Safe to say that a few of them would have left.

And then the style of play...would JJ have been allowed the freedom to play inside out that he was under Davis? Would they have played a style that suited Coverdale as much as Davis's did? Would Fife have found his shot and been as impactful as he became after Davis took over?

RMK is quite obviously A LOT better basketball coach than Mike Davis...so I get the assumptions that we'd have been better with RMK as the coach. I just think most forget how mediocre we had become under RMK his last 5-6 years, while having a number of very talented players on the roster.
 
These were the years when the cracks in the foundation really started to open up and become more obvious. The list of really talented players that left the program ended up being too long for them ALL to have been the problem. IU basketball started its decline in the mid 90s, well before the firing in 01.
A changing society was part of the problem. Plus, changing rules of the game were designed to help level the playing field, so to speak, and that’s exactly what they did. Those perceived years of decline continued to worsen after Knight’s firing, save for a couple of lucky Zeller/Oladipo years. IU fans felt entitled to continued success due to inflated egos of who we thought we’d always be, regardless of coach. The system chewed us up and spit us out and we’ve been trying to reassemble the parts ever since, with no success, as we once knew of it.

Today, we spend more money trying to buy ready-talented players than all but a few other schools. Everything Knight stood for has basically been dismissed in this progressive way of going about the college basketball business. Enough years will soon have passed such that this is the only way the majority of IU fans have ever known, a new reality of time forgotten values lost forever on the younger generation.
 
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A changing society was part of the problem. Plus, changing rules of the game were designed to help level the playing field, so to speak, and that’s exactly what they did. Those perceived years of decline continued to worsen after Knight’s firing, save for a couple of lucky Zeller/Oladipo years. IU fans felt entitled to continued success due to inflated egos of who we thought we’d always be, regardless of coach. The system chewed us up and spit us out and we’ve been trying to reassemble the parts ever since, with no success, as we once knew of it.

Today, we spend more money trying to buy ready-talented players than all but a few other schools. Everything Knight stood for has basically been dismissed in this progressive way of going about the college basketball business. Enough years will soon have passed such that this is the only way the majority of IU fans have ever known, a new reality of time forgotten values lost forever on the younger generation.
Definitely accepted behaviors and coaching methods were rapidly changing at the end of RMK's tenure at IU. I would say Michael Jordan's emergence in the NBA might have been an early contributor to the shifts and changes. What he stirred up, and brought to the forefront was a never before seen level of individualism. Every star before him, the team was still the focus. Magic was a part of "Showtime" for the Lakers, and had Kareem and Worthy, amongst others. Bird was a part of the legendary Celtics organization, and had McHale, Parrish, amongst others. Guys like Pistol Pete, who pushed more individual identities, weren't largely accepted. Then Jordan came along. And his shoes came along. And things started to change. And while even he needed help to get the Bulls to the top, everything was always about Jordan.

The Fab Five threw gasoline on that flame, and it became a huge shift and change, seemingly overnight. Uniform styles even changed. But I believe the whole concept of breaking kids down, and then building them back up...which was essentially RMK's entire approach...it became obsolete once The Fab Five did what they did. After that, very few of the most talented kids would choose to go through what an RMK program was. And many of the ones that did, that initially thought they could handle it, they didn't stick it out once they got to Bloomington.

As for what we've been since...I think its as easily explained as we've made a series of bad coaching decisions.

Davis was a horrible decision. He wasn't qualified to be IU's coach. Look at what his successes at IU look like versus anything he's done anywhere else. Even his last few IU teams, that didn't have any RMK recruited players, were higher caliber and quality versus their peer schools, than much of anything he's done since leaving IU. Tells me both RMK and IU were buoying him.

Sampson was a horrible decision because his past didn't match up with what our admin would allow. But as a coach, he was a no brainer. Sampson would have been wildly successful if he could have stuck to the script. He had IU to what, top 2-3 in the country, before everything came crashing down.

Crean...I think he just ended up being the best guy we could get with the situation we were offering. And despite how mediocre he was as a coach, in a few years, he had us to number 1. And then a few years later, he won a B10 title. You don't need to be great to be successful at IU.

Archie I think ended up being unlucky. He was a very popular choice, at the time. He was a very highly coveted coach. His teams at Dayton, and the style he employed, were analytics darlings. He just doesn't have a high major personality. Wet blanket to put it mildly. And that clouded the program.

Woodson...I think its another bad overall decision. His first 3 years have been underwhelming. We'll see what he does this year. I'm pretty excited about his roster construction. And I'm in the middle of forming my views and opinions on how to effectively build an elite program nowadays. I think they'd have been better served to go after a proven college coach of some sort. Maybe a little more dynamic personality. Shaka Smart type of guy.

As soon as the admin makes the right hire...even if they just get lucky with it, as often is the case for those to do get it right...but as soon as the right guy is in place, IU basketball will take off again. Its been a long damn time. But what Woody was able to do with our roster, despite how "toxic" everything seemed in March... IU basketball is still being buoyed by the historical success RMK had for his first 20 or so years at IU.
 
Very true. It was a shame but having three straight Burger Boys transfer really hurt.

On a side note it’s sad that three of those guys (Collier, Reed and Gladness) passed away before turning 40.
Collier was just 27. Enlarged heart that he didn’t know about.
 
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Definitely accepted behaviors and coaching methods were rapidly changing at the end of RMK's tenure at IU. I would say Michael Jordan's emergence in the NBA might have been an early contributor to the shifts and changes. What he stirred up, and brought to the forefront was a never before seen level of individualism. Every star before him, the team was still the focus. Magic was a part of "Showtime" for the Lakers, and had Kareem and Worthy, amongst others. Bird was a part of the legendary Celtics organization, and had McHale, Parrish, amongst others. Guys like Pistol Pete, who pushed more individual identities, weren't largely accepted. Then Jordan came along. And his shoes came along. And things started to change. And while even he needed help to get the Bulls to the top, everything was always about Jordan.

The Fab Five threw gasoline on that flame, and it became a huge shift and change, seemingly overnight. Uniform styles even changed. But I believe the whole concept of breaking kids down, and then building them back up...which was essentially RMK's entire approach...it became obsolete once The Fab Five did what they did. After that, very few of the most talented kids would choose to go through what an RMK program was. And many of the ones that did, that initially thought they could handle it, they didn't stick it out once they got to Bloomington.

As for what we've been since...I think its as easily explained as we've made a series of bad coaching decisions.

Davis was a horrible decision. He wasn't qualified to be IU's coach. Look at what his successes at IU look like versus anything he's done anywhere else. Even his last few IU teams, that didn't have any RMK recruited players, were higher caliber and quality versus their peer schools, than much of anything he's done since leaving IU. Tells me both RMK and IU were buoying him.

Sampson was a horrible decision because his past didn't match up with what our admin would allow. But as a coach, he was a no brainer. Sampson would have been wildly successful if he could have stuck to the script. He had IU to what, top 2-3 in the country, before everything came crashing down.

Crean...I think he just ended up being the best guy we could get with the situation we were offering. And despite how mediocre he was as a coach, in a few years, he had us to number 1. And then a few years later, he won a B10 title. You don't need to be great to be successful at IU.

Archie I think ended up being unlucky. He was a very popular choice, at the time. He was a very highly coveted coach. His teams at Dayton, and the style he employed, were analytics darlings. He just doesn't have a high major personality. Wet blanket to put it mildly. And that clouded the program.

Woodson...I think its another bad overall decision. His first 3 years have been underwhelming. We'll see what he does this year. I'm pretty excited about his roster construction. And I'm in the middle of forming my views and opinions on how to effectively build an elite program nowadays. I think they'd have been better served to go after a proven college coach of some sort. Maybe a little more dynamic personality. Shaka Smart type of guy.

As soon as the admin makes the right hire...even if they just get lucky with it, as often is the case for those to do get it right...but as soon as the right guy is in place, IU basketball will take off again. It’s been a long damn time. But what Woody was able to do with our roster, despite how "toxic" everything seemed in March... IU basketball is still being buoyed by the historical success RMK had for his first 20 or so years at IU.
It’s a shame Bob Knight wasn’t here to allow him to coach a Jared Jeffries led team. Things might have turned out differently. Bob himself said he regrets not being able to coach that particular team. Plus, we then would have had the unique physical presence and talent of Sean May.

Let us never forget that if our school’s progressive and paranoid administration hadn’t pissed Bob off to such great degree, his cantankerous nature would not have reared its ugly little head as it did. “Zero Tolerance Mandate”…come on, Man! It was our HOF coach’s death sentence. Has anyone in any walk of life been subjected to such a mandate since Knight? Zero Tolerance was nothing more than Brand’s chicken-chit way of putting the onus of responsibility on Knight. Then, to think some pimply-faced Brown Co, disrespectful smart-ass whose uncle just so happened to have a bone to pick with Knight was the one to cut him down, over something as innocuous as correcting the manners of a student just out of high school. This same uncle bought the kid a Corvette Stingray for graduation. Is it any wonder the kid thought he was so hot chit he could just bark out, “What’s up, Knight?” The next thing we were told by the media was that Coach Knight “assaulted” a student, much like he supposedly “assaulted” deSilva in Puerto Rico. A travesty to a once great college basketball program is what it has become ever since that chance meeting on the steps of Assembly Hall. Almost 25 years later and we’re here still speculating how it’s continued to all go so wrong, hoping to get back to some reasonable semblance of what we once had and took for granted.

I apologize for bringing up this same old stuff about Knight, but I still haven’t gotten over how it all went down and don’t expect I ever will…how a man so admired in the state of Indiana would someday be run out of town in disgrace and hated by so many in our fan base.

Yes, we need a more dynamic personality than what we have in Coach Woodson. We need a leader who is able to distinguish himself from all the others…someone outspoken who is quotable by the media. Our best personality since Knight has been Crean, who happens to also be our most successful coach, post Knight. It still amazes me that a year after winning the BT regular season by a comfortable margin, our BT Coach of the Year was fired. What is it with IU?

Bob Knight’s personality was a once in a generation type thing and oh, so entertaining it was…a wonderful ride for those relatively few in Hoosier Nation able to experience it to the fullest, the start of the fun in ‘71.
 
Anybody who didn't know what they were signing up for with IU by the late 90s wasn't paying attention. Jeffries would have been the difference against Maryland had he played for Knight. Instead, he was insignificant against Maryland.
 
Yawn. Knight turned into an ill-mannered cantankerous boor, and the "Program" progressively became far more about Knight than the Team on the Floor. For my part IU BB had become an embarrassment, and win or lose, not at all fun to watch. Great coach who got drunk on his own bathwater and became a prima donna that stayed well past his 'sell-by' date. The manner in which he was terminated was far from ideal and mistakes were made afterwards in attempting to replace him, but cutting him loose was absolutely correct.

Just as it's never been about the name on the jersey at IU (there aren't any), it's not about the guy(s) on the sideline. RMK's behavior increasingly/ultimately made that an impossibility.
 
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Yawn. Knight turned into an ill-mannered cantankerous boor, and the "Program" progressively became far more about Knight than the Team on the Floor. For my part IU BB had become an embarrassment, and win or lose, not at all fun to watch. Great coach who got drunk on his own bathwater and became a prima donna that stayed well past his 'sell-by' date. The manner in which he was terminated was far from ideal and mistakes were made afterwards in attempting to replace him, but cutting him loose was absolutely correct.

Just as it's never been about the name on the jersey at IU (there aren't any), it's not about the guy(s) on the sideline. RMK's behavior increasingly/ultimately made that an impossibility.
Cool story bro.
 
Yawn. Knight turned into an ill-mannered cantankerous boor, and the "Program" progressively became far more about Knight than the Team on the Floor. For my part IU BB had become an embarrassment, and win or lose, not at all fun to watch. Great coach who got drunk on his own bathwater and became a prima donna that stayed well past his 'sell-by' date. The manner in which he was terminated was far from ideal and mistakes were made afterwards in attempting to replace him, but cutting him loose was absolutely correct.

Just as it's never been about the name on the jersey at IU (there aren't any), it's not about the guy(s) on the sideline. RMK's behavior increasingly/ultimately made that an impossibility.
That cantankerous boor you speak so lowly of provided additional entertainment value, both for fans and non-fans of IU basketball.

I remember it being said that Bob Knight attracted such a large crowd of reporters during the NCAA Finals that it took away from our players some of the inherent stress that comes with such a weekend of this magnitude. If we had Knight in ‘02 instead of the bumbling mush-mouth Mike Davis, BKT… Bob Knight Theater, might have provided that slight enough advantage to carry us past Maryland, deadlocked with 7 min. to go. I like to think Knight’s cream might have jettisoned to the top at that place in time. It almost did without him. If we had won that banner, coaching things would have transitioned much smoother and we wouldn’t be here today perceived as “has beens” lost in history to the majority of college basketball fandom.

The way Knight’s unceremonious firing went down, I think some potential big name coaches might have shied away from what was perceived as a toxic environment, that is our leftest, progressive administration, too self-absorbed in their own academic elite-ness to care about sports. I bet Myles Brand never knew who invented the game of basketball.
 
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That cantankerous boor you speak so lowly of provided additional entertainment value, both for fans and non-fans of IU basketball.

I remember it being said that Bob Knight attracted such a large crowd of reporters during the NCAA Finals that it took away from our players some of the inherent stress that comes with such a weekend of this magnitude. If we had Knight in ‘02 instead of the bumbling mush-mouth Mike Davis, BKT… Bob Knight Theater, might have provided that slight enough advantage to carry us past Maryland, deadlocked with 7 min. to go. I like to think Knight’s cream might have jettisoned to the top at that place in time. It almost did without him. If we had won that banner, coaching things would have transitioned much smoother and we wouldn’t be here today perceived as “has beens” lost in history to the majority of college basketball fandom.

The way Knight’s unceremonious firing went down, I think some potential big name coaches might have shied away from what was perceived as a toxic environment, that is our leftest, progressive administration, too self-absorbed in their own academic elite-ness to care about sports. I bet Myles Brand never knew who invented the game of basketball.
Different but not at all unreasonable take - could even argue that RMK did some of the things he did on purpose for just that reason. Then there's the perspective/speculation that the very reason the '02 Team flourished (see Dane Fife/Tom Coverdale) was because RMK wasn't there. No telling. For my part the Golden Age of IU Hoops ended long before Coach Knight left Campus. Or rather the last Golden Age...
 
Wilkerson would have been a 5th year senior. Reed a senior.

On Paper:
Soph: Jason Collier 7'0. MCD AA
Sr: Andre Patterson 6'9". MCD AA
fr: Luke Recker 6'6". MCD AA
sr: Sherron Wilkerson. 6'4". MCD AA
sr: Neil Reed. 6'3" MCD AA

6- sr: Charlie Miller. 6'7". Top 50 kid
7- so: Some kid named AJ Guyton. 6'1"
8- 5th yr sr Richard Mandeville 7'0"
9- sr: William Gladness. 6'8"
10 so: Michael Lewis. 6'2"
11 sr: Robbie Eggers. 6'10"
12 jr: Rob Turner. 6'4"
13 so: Larry Richardson 6'8"
That looks like a great lineup but the way many posters these days are fixated on the development (or lack thereof) of “end of the bench guys” I’m sure there would be a ton of posts complaining that Eggers, Mandeville and Richardson weren’t “developing”. LOL
 
Definitely accepted behaviors and coaching methods were rapidly changing at the end of RMK's tenure at IU. I would say Michael Jordan's emergence in the NBA might have been an early contributor to the shifts and changes. What he stirred up, and brought to the forefront was a never before seen level of individualism. Every star before him, the team was still the focus. Magic was a part of "Showtime" for the Lakers, and had Kareem and Worthy, amongst others. Bird was a part of the legendary Celtics organization, and had McHale, Parrish, amongst others. Guys like Pistol Pete, who pushed more individual identities, weren't largely accepted. Then Jordan came along. And his shoes came along. And things started to change. And while even he needed help to get the Bulls to the top, everything was always about Jordan.

The Fab Five threw gasoline on that flame, and it became a huge shift and change, seemingly overnight. Uniform styles even changed. But I believe the whole concept of breaking kids down, and then building them back up...which was essentially RMK's entire approach...it became obsolete once The Fab Five did what they did. After that, very few of the most talented kids would choose to go through what an RMK program was. And many of the ones that did, that initially thought they could handle it, they didn't stick it out once they got to Bloomington.

As for what we've been since...I think its as easily explained as we've made a series of bad coaching decisions.

Davis was a horrible decision. He wasn't qualified to be IU's coach. Look at what his successes at IU look like versus anything he's done anywhere else. Even his last few IU teams, that didn't have any RMK recruited players, were higher caliber and quality versus their peer schools, than much of anything he's done since leaving IU. Tells me both RMK and IU were buoying him.

Sampson was a horrible decision because his past didn't match up with what our admin would allow. But as a coach, he was a no brainer. Sampson would have been wildly successful if he could have stuck to the script. He had IU to what, top 2-3 in the country, before everything came crashing down.

Crean...I think he just ended up being the best guy we could get with the situation we were offering. And despite how mediocre he was as a coach, in a few years, he had us to number 1. And then a few years later, he won a B10 title. You don't need to be great to be successful at IU.

Archie I think ended up being unlucky. He was a very popular choice, at the time. He was a very highly coveted coach. His teams at Dayton, and the style he employed, were analytics darlings. He just doesn't have a high major personality. Wet blanket to put it mildly. And that clouded the program.

Woodson...I think its another bad overall decision. His first 3 years have been underwhelming. We'll see what he does this year. I'm pretty excited about his roster construction. And I'm in the middle of forming my views and opinions on how to effectively build an elite program nowadays. I think they'd have been better served to go after a proven college coach of some sort. Maybe a little more dynamic personality. Shaka Smart type of guy.

As soon as the admin makes the right hire...even if they just get lucky with it, as often is the case for those to do get it right...but as soon as the right guy is in place, IU basketball will take off again. Its been a long damn time. But what Woody was able to do with our roster, despite how "toxic" everything seemed in March... IU basketball is still being buoyed by the historical success RMK had for his first 20 or so years at IU.
I think Michael Jordan’s emergence was a continuation of/reaction to the shift in the NBA catalyzed by the 1980’s Lakers. I suspect that Kobe Bryant’s success out of high school in the late 90s had an effect along with the tremendous growth in NBA player salaries.


One interesting thing from that salary analysis are the top player earnings by school. Duke, UK, UNC, UCONN, KU.

The net result of all of this is the transformation of high major college basketball into the NBA farm system, mitigating risks for NBA teams. It has been for a while, but I think it is more nakedly that now in response to the demands of NBA teams for labor. I don’t remember when it became common for college players to leave early for the NBA, but it feels like that happened sometime after I started paying attention to college basketball in 1996. I think this is part of the appeal of teams like Indiana State last year, FAU the year before, and even Purdue last year, teams led by players who aren’t, or at least don’t appear to be, in a big hurry to get to the NBA. That approach seems to be more difficult with each season.

I don’t know if IU is still being buoyed by RMKs first 20 years or not. I think there are a lot of conditions at Indiana (money, fanbase, cultural status of basketball in the state, and academic support for athletes, to name a few) that give whoever is coaching here some big advantages. RMK himself took full advantage in those years. I think giving RMK credit for subsequent coaches’ successes unfairly takes credit away from those coaches, particularly Davis and Crean. RMK certainly gets a lot of credit for 1971-1991 but it’s important to remember that IUBB was not that fun in the late 90s and he didn’t exactly set the world on fire at Texas Tech.

One could argue that RMK’s success also casts a shadow by making some people nostalgic for the abusive father authoritarian type, which makes coaches who don’t fit that unpalatable to those fans, which may warp perceptions a bit.

I really appreciate and look forward to your thoughtful posts.
 
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I think Michael Jordan’s emergence was a continuation of/reaction to the shift in the NBA catalyzed by the 1980’s Lakers. I suspect that Kobe Bryant’s success out of high school in the late 90s had an effect along with the tremendous growth in NBA player salaries.


One interesting thing from that salary analysis are the top player earnings by school. Duke, UK, UNC, UCONN, KU.

The net result of all of this is the transformation of high major college basketball into the NBA farm system, mitigating risks for NBA teams. It has been for a while, but I think it is more nakedly that now in response to the demands of NBA teams for labor. I don’t remember when it became common for college players to leave early for the NBA, but it feels like that happened sometime after I started paying attention to college basketball in 1996. I think this is part of the appeal of teams like Indiana State last year, FAU the year before, and even Purdue last year, teams led by players who aren’t, or at least don’t appear to be, in a big hurry to get to the NBA. That approach seems to be more difficult with each season.

I don’t know if IU is still being buoyed by RMKs first 20 years or not. I think there are a lot of conditions at Indiana (money, fanbase, cultural status of basketball in the state, and academic support for athletes, to name a few) that give whoever is coaching here some big advantages. RMK himself took full advantage in those years. I think giving RMK credit for subsequent coaches’ successes unfairly takes credit away from those coaches, particularly Davis and Crean. RMK certainly gets a lot of credit for 1971-1991 but it’s important to remember that IUBB was not that fun in the late 90s and he didn’t exactly set the world on fire at Texas Tech.

One could argue that RMK’s success also casts a shadow by making some people nostalgic for the abusive father authoritarian type, which makes coaches who don’t fit that unpalatable to those fans, which may warp perceptions a bit.

I really appreciate and look forward to your thoughtful posts.
You could be right about the Lakers being the spark for the individualism movement. I was too young to really have much of a personal opinion on that. But from stories, highlights, documentaries on those teams, it seemed that the overall lure for the fans was the entire team, and specifically how they played. Obviously Magic was the catalyst for that, but it was still "Showtime", or whatever they called them...not "Magic time". Even Magic's shoes were just Laker colored converse, nothing uniquely "Magical" about them. Jordan changed all of that, and he, his shoes, Nike as a result, and the Bulls all became very popular well before his teams were a factor. Doesn't really matter...that individualistic mindset was like oil and water with RMK's program and approach, is the main point.

Its an interesting thought to think about what "Indiana Basketball" would be without RMK's incredible 20 year run at IU. I would like to think the overall history, high school basketball, Bird, Oscar, would have carried the aura that is basketball in our state. But I think RMK's success, and how his teams played, and how he often had Indiana kids on the roster...it made the legends bigger, and they resonated more...than if IU had been say a Purdue like program throughout the years.

I think RMK's time at IU showed the basketball world that sound fundamental basketball, being played by a group that was putting the team in front of themselves, could win at the highest level. I think without RMK, the perception would largely be what we have about Purdue right now. And the legends and perceptions wouldn't be nearly as romantic. Heck, even the movie Hoosiers probably wouldn't have been met with as much fan fare as it was.

And to get back to the original point...that fundamental style that RMK used, became increasingly outdated in the early to mid 90s, and basically obsolete by 2000.
 
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These were the years when the cracks in the foundation really started to open up and become more obvious. The list of really talented players that left the program ended up being too long for them ALL to have been the problem. IU basketball started its decline in the mid 90s, well before the firing in 01.
Yet he finally has the talent he needed to make yet another championship run when he was fired. And they were loyal to Knight as evidenced by all of them threatening to leave when he was fired.
 
I thought I was old enough to have lived through all the old stories, but I guess some slipped by me. Have these stories, tales perhaps, been varied by anyone but Dakich? Was it Dakich who told you Lafentz and Vaughn were “locked up” until Knight went fishing? Did he have a scheduled meeting with the two that he blew off or were they told ahead of time not to expect him that weekend? Did Dakich not handle his absence well by saying the wrong thing about Knight “gone fish’in”? Regarding Knight’s home visit at the Montross house, had Bob told the family to expect someone else with him for the meeting? Is it considered in poor taste to show up alone? If he had worn a bolo tie, what would the Montross’ have thought then? Did Bob soil their white shag carpet with his muddy boots and ignore the cleaning bill they mailed him? Did he smell of bee moths and earthworms when the garden peas were being passed? Please tell this old man more of these “well known”, old stories.
Toward the end of Knight’s tenure the forums were full of people who flat out made up many of these “old stories.”
 
And to get back to the original point...that fundamental style that RMK used, became increasingly outdated in the early to mid 90s, and basically obsolete by 2000.
Just my opinion but I don't agree with this. Many times we made adjustments to get more of talent he had. I think it was more him not retaining enough talent, whether he wasn't putting the effort in or couldn't connect with kids, I don't know. . On paper he once again had a great lineup when he was fired.
 
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Toward the end of Knight’s tenure the forums were full of people who flat out made up many of these “old stories.”
I remember those days in slow decay. It wasn’t just the IU forums running with those same old exaggerated half-fairy tales, so did the local, then national media. Everyone was always waiting for another opportunity to pounce. Eventually the outside agitators were too much to overcome as soon followed those of our very own, the turncoats, quick to jump overboard, thinking they knew better.

“People are going to believe what they want to believe.”
~ Bill O’Reilly

“Gullibility is a growing weakness.” ~ abraxis
 
I remember those days in slow decay. It wasn’t just the IU forums running with those same old exaggerated half-fairy tales, so did the local, then national media. Everyone was always waiting for another opportunity to pounce. Eventually the outside agitators were too much to overcome as soon followed those of our very own, the turncoats, quick to jump overboard, thinking they knew better.

“People are going to believe what they want to believe.”
~ Bill O’Reilly

“Gullibility is a growing weakness.” ~ abraxis
It was toxic. The lies were rampant. One myth was that IU had more transfers than other B1G programs. That was exposed as false.
 
Just my opinion but I don't agree with this. Many times we made adjustments to get more of talent he had. I think it was more him not retaining enough talent, whether he wasn't putting the effort in or couldn't connect with kids, I don't know. . On paper he once again had a great lineup when he was fired.
Concur. What he did at Texas Tech with lesser talent proved he adapted his style to win. Won some bucks for me too.
 
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