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Washington Post: Scant evidence that Clinton had malicious intent in handling of emails

I posted this link a while back. Can't find it now so here it is again.

http://freebeacon.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/11/HRC-SCI-NDA1.pdf

It is the link to the HRC signed SF 312. It bears her name and signature. Read it. Multiply the circumstantial evidence by 2200 classified documents on her server factoring in 22 Top Secret documents so sensitive that some FBI agents had to have their security clearances upgraded to even deal with the investigation. Does that volume amount to gross negligence? I'd be amazed if you admit it does, but thousands of repititions in the face of her own sworn form should constitute gross negligence.
My argument to Cajun on the "volume" question has been this: you can't use the fact of the act itself to prove mens rea, and volume shouldn't change that. If you're a doctor, and 2,200 of your patients die, you are absolutely going to be investigated, but the judge isn't going to allow the prosecutor to decline to prove negligence on the grounds that the numbers do that for him. Same goes here. No matter the volume, gross negligence is still an element of the offense, and still needs to be proven.
 
My argument to Cajun on the "volume" question has been this: you can't use the fact of the act itself to prove mens rea, and volume shouldn't change that. If you're a doctor, and 2,200 of your patients die, you are absolutely going to be investigated, but the judge isn't going to allow the prosecutor to decline to prove negligence on the grounds that the numbers do that for him. Same goes here. No matter the volume, gross negligence is still an element of the offense, and still needs to be proven.
Did you read carefully the SF 312? I thought it a bit blurred so here is a link to a better copy of it.

http://fas.org/sgp/isoo/new_sf312.pdf


A repetitive pattern of violating the referenced statutes, which the form warns may not be violated and which, by her signature she agreed with the United States not to violate, turns from sloppiness into intentional or at least gross misconduct, don't you think? She promised that she would never leave classified information unprotected, signing her name twice to the form, as a condition of her access to classified information. The form warns of the violations possible and the penalties therefore for not protecting all classified information marked, unmarked and/or oral. Try reading it in serious detail as she signed that she did. Read it as if you were her lawyer and had to counsel her regarding whether to cop a plea or go to trial on 2200 plus counts. You don't have to answer me, but read it like that. Someone is doing exactly that right now as are counsel for several other of her colleagues.
 
Did you read carefully the SF 312? I thought it a bit blurred so here is a link to a better copy of it.

http://fas.org/sgp/isoo/new_sf312.pdf


A repetitive pattern of violating the referenced statutes, which the form warns may not be violated and which, by her signature she agreed with the United States not to violate, turns from sloppiness into intentional or at least gross misconduct, don't you think? She promised that she would never leave classified information unprotected, signing her name twice to the form, as a condition of her access to classified information. The form warns of the violations possible and the penalties therefore for not protecting all classified information marked, unmarked and/or oral. Try reading it in serious detail as she signed that she did. Read it as if you were her lawyer and had to counsel her regarding whether to cop a plea or go to trial on 2200 plus counts. You don't have to answer me, but read it like that. Someone is doing exactly that right now as are counsel for several other of her colleagues.
I've read it. So what? Does this mean you are finally conceding my point: that the mere existence of information where it doesn't belong is not a per se crime, but that the government must also provide evidence of gross negligence, as well? Because it sounds like that's the case you're making now, and if so, you can simply admit that I was right all along, and we can move on.
 
but the judge isn't going to allow the prosecutor to decline to prove negligence on the grounds that the numbers do that for him.

You keep talking nonsense goat

Under rule 404 the numbers can serve as evidence of intent or of negligence. The numbers together with the circumstances of where and how Clinton kept the confidential material could be sufficient evidence to allow the jury to consider gross negligence. This has been the argument from the beginning and you keep yammering about lawyers being disbarred if this is what they might say. I don't get it.
 
You keep talking nonsense goat

Under rule 404 the numbers can serve as evidence of intent or of negligence. The numbers together with the circumstances of where and how Clinton kept the confidential material could be sufficient evidence to allow the jury to consider gross negligence. This has been the argument from the beginning and you keep yammering about lawyers being disbarred if this is what they might say. I don't get it.
The numbers represent the acts at issue, not prior acts, so 404 is irrelevant.
 
The numbers represent the acts at issue, not prior acts, so 404 is irrelevant.

You are just being silly now.

Do you know that the word "prior" does not appear in 404? Do you know that Clinton handled all e-mail in an identical fashion, iincluding the thousands that violate the law? Do you know that this is evidence of intent and tends to disprove mere "accident" or simple negligence?
 
You are just being silly now.

Do you know that the word "prior" does not appear in 404? Do you know that Clinton handled all e-mail in an identical fashion, iincluding the thousands that violate the law? Do you know that this is evidence of intent and tends to disprove mere "accident" or simple negligence?
I'm not denying that how she handled her email might serve as evidence of gross negligence. Or worse. I have never denied that. I have repeatedly and explicitly confirmed it. The only point I have been trying to stress (in vain) in this entire conversation has been the simple legal precept that all elements of a crime must be proven beyond a reasonable doubt to convict. No matter how much evidence is presented regarding the nature of the act in question, negligence cannot be assumed based on the act. It is a separate element that must also be proven.

You guys keep insisting I'm wrong, and then keep arguing collateral issues. Even when you are making good points, they are just legal straw men.

Edit: Rule 404 has to do with other acts not directly at issue, and when they are and are not admissible. The acts actually at issue are of course admissible, because those are the acts the prosecution is trying to prove. Rule 404 is irrelevant to this question.
 
You go to your daughters prom and no alcohol is allowed. You drink the fruit punch and it tastes fine no alcohol after taste. You drive home and are stopped by the police for possible DWI. You know you haven't had anything to drink and submit to a breathalyzer. You test .09 - are you guilty of the crime of DWI? You had no intent to get drunk does it make a difference. Or was a crime committed by the sole result of the breathalyzer result.
 
You go to your daughters prom and no alcohol is allowed. You drink the fruit punch and it tastes fine no alcohol after taste. You drive home and are stopped by the police for possible DWI. You know you haven't had anything to drink and submit to a breathalyzer. You test .09 - are you guilty of the crime of DWI? You had no intent to get drunk does it make a difference. Or was a crime committed by the sole result of the breathalyzer result.

Non legal mind here but the fact you're trying to make this scenario fit your purpose is laughable, imho.

Try a similar crime. Goat's said ignorance isn't an excuse. I pity your clients.
 
You go to your daughters prom and no alcohol is allowed. You drink the fruit punch and it tastes fine no alcohol after taste. You drive home and are stopped by the police for possible DWI. You know you haven't had anything to drink and submit to a breathalyzer. You test .09 - are you guilty of the crime of DWI? You had no intent to get drunk does it make a difference. Or was a crime committed by the sole result of the breathalyzer result.
Generally speaking, yes, you're guilty, because DWI is a strict liability offense, and requires no showing of intent, knowledge or negligence.

However, courts have accepted a good faith defense to strict liability offenses where someone deceives you and you have no reason not to believe them.

But, since 18 USC 793 isn't a strict liability offense, the analogy is a bad one.
 
I'm not denying that how she handled her email might serve as evidence of gross negligence. Or worse. I have never denied that. I have repeatedly and explicitly confirmed it. The only point I have been trying to stress (in vain) in this entire conversation has been the simple legal precept that all elements of a crime must be proven beyond a reasonable doubt to convict. No matter how much evidence is presented regarding the nature of the act in question, negligence cannot be assumed based on the act. It is a separate element that must also be proven.

You guys keep insisting I'm wrong, and then keep arguing collateral issues. Even when you are making good points, they are just legal straw men.

Edit: Rule 404 has to do with other acts not directly at issue, and when they are and are not admissible. The acts actually at issue are of course admissible, because those are the acts the prosecution is trying to prove. Rule 404 is irrelevant to this question.

Frankly I don't know what your argument is

If you are saying is that all elements of a crime must be proven then you are saying water is wet. I, and I think the others, are pointing out that the circumstances of her server and and her conduct are evidence of gross negligence and it might even be enough evidence. You seem to deny this and say negligence must be separately proven. The same facts can support different elements of guilt.
 
Frankly I don't know what your argument is

If you are saying is that all elements of a crime must be proven then you are saying water is wet. I, and I think the others, are pointing out that the circumstances of her server and and her conduct are evidence of gross negligence and it might even be enough evidence. You seem to deny this and say negligence must be separately proven. The same facts can support different elements of guilt.
First of all, no, that's not what I've been arguing against. Ladoga repeatedly claimed that this was a strict liability offense in which the mere existence of the information where it shouldn't be is a crime per se.

Cajun was making a slightly different argument, that the mere existence of all that information where it shouldn't be is enough to prove gross negligence.

My argument has been clear from the beginning: this is not a strict liability offense, and gross negligence needs to be proven, and one element of the crime cannot be used to assume another element. While evidence can be used to prove more than one element (I think I first mentioned that about three pages ago), one element should not be assumed in and of itself from another element; otherwise, there is no reason to have multiple elements. There must be something above and beyond the existence of the information where it shouldn't be that speaks to negligence. To interpret the statute in any other way would make the inclusion of "gross negligence" in the statute meaningless, and that goes against the basic rules of statutory construction.

I have also repeatedly apologized if I have in any way been unclear, but you guys continue to argue corollary points and address things I didn't even say, so I really don't think I'm the one with the problem here. I have done my very best to keep from being taken off-track, so if you don't know what my argument is by now, I can't explain way. Perhaps I really am just so incoherent that I can't be understood.

Also:
You keep talking nonsense goat

You are just being silly now.
You are now the one making this personal.
 
Given it isn't an unusual situation and it's a rare thing to be charged with given the circumstances known and the history we know... what actually seems to be happening is a group of folks want an example made of her for no other reason than they want her punished... for something.
This is totally incorrect.....or as far as I am concerned.

I personally think security a very important item whether its Hillary, You, Goat, myself or anyone else who is negligent regarding the handling of and the safeguarding and sharing classified materials. The rules and the laws are in place to punish those who are either careless or intentional in not doing so. And what really bugs my ass personally is the vagueness of the rules/laws in place to do so. This thread is an example of totally different interpretations of the law, and the termonology used. Goat has provided very reputable links for prominent lawyers and sites as I have with literally dozens of very highly regarded and successful attorneys all disagreeing whole or in part with each other. The news and spin on this very topic is being debated on a national level with totally different positions and interpretations of the law and frankly by people way more qualified on the topic than we few at the Cooler.

You often post comments of what happened in the past comparable to Hillarys email issue that weren't prosecuted or even discussed at length if at all as an opinion on why Hillary should not be prosecuted. This past occurrences doesn't have a thing to do with Hillary unless (gasp) she is charged and and one of the previous instances was charged and there was some kind of precedent set in them or others in the past.

Do I personally think her guilty or at the very least incompetent and not trustworthy....yes.....but I would feel the same regarding anyone else who was involved in a similar fashion specific to her issue right, center, left, Pub, Dem.............
 
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This is totally incorrect.....or as far as I am concerned.

I personally think security a very important item whether its Hillary, You, Goat, myself or anyone else who is negligent regarding the handling of and the safeguarding and sharing classified materials. The rules and the laws are in place to punish those who are either careless or intentional in not doing so. And what really bugs my ass personally is the vagueness of the rules/laws in place to do so. This thread is an example of totally different interpretations of the law, and the termonology used. Goat has provided very reputable links for prominent lawyers and sites as I have with literally dozens of very highly regarded and successful attorneys all disagreeing whole or in part with each other. The news and spin on this very topic is being debated on a national level with totally different positions and interpretations of the law and frankly by people way more qualified on the topic than we few at the Cooler.

You often post comments of what happened in the past comparable to Hillarys email issue that weren't prosecuted or even discussed at length if at all as an opinion on why Hillary should not be prosecuted. This past occurrences doesn't have a thing to do with Hillary unless (gasp) she is charged and and one of the previous instances was charged and there was some kind of precedent set in them or others in the past.

Do I personally think her guilty or at the very least incompetent and not trustworthy....yes.....but I would feel the same regarding anyone else who was involved in a similar fashion specific to her issue right, center, left, Pub, Dem.............

That's fine, then we have reality...
 
That's fine, then we have reality...

The reality is the FBI is wasting it's time as is this whole thread. President Obama and his Justice Department isn't charging Hillary with anything. The reality also is the posters on here who have direct experience with this issue know with certainty that they would be in a lot of trouble if they did anything close to what Hillary has done. That doesn't matter though to the Hillary defenders. They give her a pass just like the Simpson jury gave him a pass.
 
The reality is the FBI is wasting it's time as is this whole thread. President Obama and his Justice Department isn't charging Hillary with anything. The reality also is the posters on here who have direct experience with this issue know with certainty that they would be in a lot of trouble if they did anything close to what Hillary has done. That doesn't matter though to the Hillary defenders. They give her a pass just like the Simpson jury gave him a pass.

History, do you deny it?
 
First of all, no, that's not what I've been arguing against. Ladoga repeatedly claimed that this was a strict liability offense in which the mere existence of the information where it shouldn't be is a crime per se.

Cajun was making a slightly different argument, that the mere existence of all that information where it shouldn't be is enough to prove gross negligence.

My argument has been clear from the beginning: this is not a strict liability offense, and gross negligence needs to be proven, and one element of the crime cannot be used to assume another element. While evidence can be used to prove more than one element (I think I first mentioned that about three pages ago), one element should not be assumed in and of itself from another element; otherwise, there is no reason to have multiple elements. There must be something above and beyond the existence of the information where it shouldn't be that speaks to negligence. To interpret the statute in any other way would make the inclusion of "gross negligence" in the statute meaningless, and that goes against the basic rules of statutory construction.

I have also repeatedly apologized if I have in any way been unclear, but you guys continue to argue corollary points and address things I didn't even say, so I really don't think I'm the one with the problem here. I have done my very best to keep from being taken off-track, so if you don't know what my argument is by now, I can't explain way. Perhaps I really am just so incoherent that I can't be understood.

Also:



You are now the one making this personal.
I didn't say it was a strict liability crime. I said that it is a violation of the federal law to lose or not protect classified information and that determining if there is a perpetrator and/or who that person is puts crime and perpetrator together. But merely allowing classified material to be lost or unprotected IS a crime. It then gets investigated to determine who the criminal - if any - is. and VIOLA!! It turns out to be Hillary Clinton and/or some of her staff people.
 
The reality is the FBI is wasting it's time as is this whole thread. President Obama and his Justice Department isn't charging Hillary with anything. The reality also is the posters on here who have direct experience with this issue know with certainty that they would be in a lot of trouble if they did anything close to what Hillary has done. That doesn't matter though to the Hillary defenders. They give her a pass just like the Simpson jury gave him a pass.

Well, I sort of see the discussion as an academic one anyway. I don't think anyone actually involved with the above debate believes that Hillary will be indicted.

I'm not a member of the legal crowd but it seems to me that a decision to indict would be based on the likelihood of obtaining a conviction, and I imagine it's that way from the smallest crimes to the biggest. Someone here has occasionally used the phrase "too big to jail" with regards to HRC. I think it's more, "too big to convict." I seriously doubt that HRC could be successfully convicted of anything in the current climate, regardless of what she has or hasn't done. As such, I don't see any way she'll be indicted.

Guilty? Innocent? I just don't think it matters. At all.
 
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Well, I sort of see the discussion as an academic one anyway. I don't think anyone actually involved with the above debate believes that Hillary will be indicted.

I'm not a member of the legal crowd but it seems to me that a decision to indict would be based on the likelihood of obtaining a conviction, and I imagine it's that way from the smallest crimes to the biggest. Someone here has occasionally used the phrase "too big to jail" with regards to HRC. I think it's more, "too big to convict." I seriously doubt that HRC could be successfully convicted of anything in the current climate, regardless of what she has or hasn't done. As such, I don't see any way she'll be indicted.

Guilty? Innocent? I just don't think it matters. At all.

I'd like to see Goat make the opposite argument he's been making. Like any good attorney I am sure he can.
 
I didn't say it was a strict liability crime. I said that it is a violation of the federal law to lose or not protect classified information and that determining if there is a perpetrator and/or who that person is puts crime and perpetrator together. But merely allowing classified material to be lost or unprotected IS a crime. It then gets investigated to determine who the criminal - if any - is. and VIOLA!! It turns out to be Hillary Clinton and/or some of her staff people.
Sorry, but that's not true. You repeatedly, in multiple threads, argued that this was a strict liability offense and then cited 793. When I repeatedly used the text of 793 to explain why you were wrong, you ignored me.
 
I thought attorneys can make any argument. :)
They can try, but they'd sound stupid in some cases.

To convict Hillary, the government will need to prove gross negligence. That's required because the language is in the statute. No lawyer can really argue against that.

Now good lawyers could make arguments both for and against her being guilty, but that's not the argument I'm having.
 
Sorry, but that's not true. You repeatedly, in multiple threads, argued that this was a strict liability offense and then cited 793. When I repeatedly used the text of 793 to explain why you were wrong, you ignored me.
I don't think I ever used the term "strict liability" but you applied the term t my argument creating a straw man. The statute is VERY clear. It is a crime to expose classified information or to lose it for that matter, leaving it non-secure. That describes the crime and that's that. Now I also said repeatedly that the rest of a criminal prosecution for that offense would be proving who committed that felony. Assuming, arguendo, that all those 2200 classified messages were exposed and left unsecured (you do not dispute that do you?), who is the person who left them unsecure?

EDIT to add parenthetical phrase
 
You need to do some reading on the subject.

Just like OJ killing his wife was a fake controversy. Talk about fake... how about the inference that some guy's video kicked off that whole Benghazi attack? Are you still buying that?
 
It's as though they bury their head regarding the emails showing no indication of being classified and they just have some need to make it all about her. They ignore the facts involved and submit their own because that's what they want. So they pretend she did it all on purpose and is the one responsible for even having the emails sent to her and therefore must be punished in full accordance of the law.
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cleaned it up a bit.
 
I don't think I ever used the term "strict liability" but you applied the term t my argument creating a straw man. The statute is VERY clear. It is a crime to expose classified information or to lose it for that matter, leaving it non-secure. That describes the crime and that's that. Now I also said repeatedly that the rest of a criminal prosecution for that offense would be proving who committed that felony. Assuming, arguendo, that all those 2200 classified messages were exposed and left unsecured (you do not dispute that do you?), who is the person who left them unsecure?

EDIT to add parenthetical phrase
No, I used the phrase. It is the technical phrase of the type of crime you were describing. And you're still getting it wrong. When you say:
It is a crime to expose classified information or to lose it for that matter, leaving it non-secure.
You need to add the phrase "through gross negligence" in there in order to be accurate. Simply committing the act is not a crime. It must be committed through negligence. An honest accident is not a crime. This is the key legal detail you keep missing.

By ignoring the requirement for gross negligence, you are attempting to turn the statute into one that describes a crime that is illegal by the sheer fact of the act committed, with no concern whatsoever for mental culpability. That is, by definition, what a "strict liability offense" is.
 
It's as though they bury their head regarding the emails showing no indication of being classified and they just have some need to make it all about her. They ignore the facts involved and submit their own because that's what they want. So they pretend she did it all on purpose and is the one responsible for even having the emails sent to her and therefore must be punished in full accordance of the law.
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cleaned it up a bit.
I suppose by "they" you refer in part to those posting here that they believe something illegal occurred. Frankly sir it's you with the head buried in the sand.

You are either ignoring or simply refusing to accept the fact that a large number of emails were found on the server of which several were classified and of which 2 contained the highest security rating possible. These were found by the IG for one and documented.

Even the DOD spokesman at a news conference stated that there were 18 email chains between Hillary and Obama that contained highly classified materials and they would not be released for this reason. I could go on and on and most has been discussed in this thread and all have been documented. State Department Spokesman John Kirby said that the State Department also would not be releasing seven email chains including 37 pages because these emails contain what he called “a category of top secret information.”


NYT's May 10 2016

WASHINGTON — The State Department on Friday said for the first time that “top secret” material had been sent through Hillary Clinton’s private computer server, and that it would not make public 22 of her emails because they contained highly classified information.

One of many articles from news sources preferable for the left: (excerpts)

NYT Jan 29 2016

Nearly three-quarters of those emails were classified because they contained what is called “foreign government information” — a vast category of information, gathered through conversations and meetings with foreign counterparts that are the fundamentals of diplomacy, but which had to be protected when the emails were released and are BORN Classified....BORN classified.

The department announced that 18 emails exchanged between Mrs. Clinton and President Obama would also be withheld, citing the longstanding practice of preserving presidential communications for future release. The department’s spokesman, John Kirby, said that exchanges did not involve classified information.
National Review

The known evidence that Mrs. Clinton committed federal crimes is abundant, perhaps even overwhelming. It is manifest that she lawlessly transmitted and stored classified information outside its secure system, and that she caused her underlings to do so. But remember, there is also the evidence that is unknown to the public — though it is being pored over by the FBI: the 32,000 e-mails Clinton refused to turn over to the State Department (which involved converting them to her private use) and attempted to destroy by trying to delete them (i.e., to wipe her private server clean)

At this point in time how can a reasonable person believe beyond doubt that these 18 exchanges were not classified. How can it be proven? Presidential communications....the catch all for avoiding public scrutiny.

Mrs. Clinton herself wrote, responded to or forwarded 96 emails that have been classified in part, including one that is classified secret; 46 of those contained the “foreign government information” that the department’s letter addressed

An additional 65 emails, which have been released, have had portions redacted because they included information classified at the level of “secret.”
Remember foreign government information is to be considered born classified and the Fed Records Act and an Obama Executive order makes this clear.

In all fairness it has been pointed out that Hillary is not the only person(s) to have sent emails etc outside of the rules/protocols but this does not excuse her for doing so and serves to look at charges for others perhaps.

This is a laugh(your comment), "they pretend she did it on purpose". By that I can only assume you are acknowledging something is there as evidence on her server but if so Hillary didn't know the rules, laws and protocols or those sending emails to her didn't(throwing aides under the buss as salvation). That isn't speaking very highly to her intelligence and competency. A former lawyer, First Lady at state and federal level, US Senator, Sec of State, and running for President was unfamiliar with or had no knowledge of rules, protocols, and statutes for handling, sharing, or storage of classified materials? Even after her training and her signing 2 documents that she understood the rules and penalties for not doing so. Remember as well that ignorance doesn't cut it in the eyes of the law.

On those emails showing no classifications.......where have you been? You do understand that material doesn't have to be marked to be classified don't you? Read the law and the protocols involved. Even the IG and a security expert involved in plowing through all of the emails have stated Hillarys claims about nothing being classified was sent via her server have publicly disputed that and provided the documentation for same.

What's ironic is that Hillary herself sent a cable to all of the State Dept employees etc regarding emails and the proper security and handling of classified materials and warning against using private emails which "gasp" she herself was violating. Don't believe me then google for the copy of the original cable...its there.

Your cop out is basically that if there was classified material on her server/pc it was because someone else sent it to her or she simply didn't understand or know the rules. Or....this which is even more ludicrous...."They ignore the facts involved and submit their own because that's what they want." In reality you sir are ignoring the facts and simply refusing to accept they even exist.

Its a fact that statutes were violated and there is ample documentation and I would suggest you use another avenue of support for Hillarys position. One involving the law and proving her gross negligence as Goat has done so thoroughly and quit stating that nothing ever happened involving her on a personal level. Your post makes it clear you feel if in fact there was classified material on her server or exchanges with others that she either didn't know the rules, or someone who didn't know the rules emailed her classified material, and most of all this classified material doesn't even exist. Not to offend you sir but you telling others their heads are buried in the sand is laughable on one level and sad on another.
 
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I suppose by "they" you refer in part to those posting here that they believe something illegal occurred. Frankly sir it's you with the head buried in the sand.

You are either ignoring or simply refusing to accept the fact that a large number of emails were found on the server of which several were classified and of which 2 contained the highest security rating possible. These were found by the IG for one and documented.

Even the DOD spokesman at a news conference stated that there were 18 email chains between Hillary and Obama that contained highly classified materials and they would not be released for this reason. I could go on and on and most has been discussed in this thread and all have been documented. State Department Spokesman John Kirby said that the State Department also would not be releasing seven email chains including 37 pages because these emails contain what he called “a category of top secret information.”


NYT's May 10 2016

WASHINGTON — The State Department on Friday said for the first time that “top secret” material had been sent through Hillary Clinton’s private computer server, and that it would not make public 22 of her emails because they contained highly classified information.

One of many articles from news sources preferable for the left: (excerpts)

NYT Jan 29 2016

Nearly three-quarters of those emails were classified because they contained what is called “foreign government information” — a vast category of information, gathered through conversations and meetings with foreign counterparts that are the fundamentals of diplomacy, but which had to be protected when the emails were released and are BORN Classified....BORN classified.

The department announced that 18 emails exchanged between Mrs. Clinton and President Obama would also be withheld, citing the longstanding practice of preserving presidential communications for future release. The department’s spokesman, John Kirby, said that exchanges did not involve classified information.
National Review

The known evidence that Mrs. Clinton committed federal crimes is abundant, perhaps even overwhelming. It is manifest that she lawlessly transmitted and stored classified information outside its secure system, and that she caused her underlings to do so. But remember, there is also the evidence that is unknown to the public — though it is being pored over by the FBI: the 32,000 e-mails Clinton refused to turn over to the State Department (which involved converting them to her private use) and attempted to destroy by trying to delete them (i.e., to wipe her private server clean)

At this point in time how can a reasonable person believe beyond doubt that these 18 exchanges were not classified. How can it be proven? Presidential communications....the catch all for avoiding public scrutiny.

Mrs. Clinton herself wrote, responded to or forwarded 96 emails that have been classified in part, including one that is classified secret; 46 of those contained the “foreign government information” that the department’s letter addressed

An additional 65 emails, which have been released, have had portions redacted because they included information classified at the level of “secret.”
Remember foreign government information is to be considered born classified and the Fed Records Act and an Obama Executive order makes this clear.

In all fairness it has been pointed out that Hillary is not the only person(s) to have sent emails etc outside of the rules/protocols but this does not excuse her for doing so and serves to look at charges for others perhaps.

This is a laugh(your comment), "they pretend she did it on purpose". By that I can only assume you are acknowledging something is there as evidence on her server but if so Hillary didn't know the rules, laws and protocols or those sending emails to her didn't(throwing aides under the buss as salvation). That isn't speaking very highly to her intelligence and competency. A former lawyer, First Lady at state and federal level, US Senator, Sec of State, and running for President was unfamiliar with or had no knowledge of rules, protocols, and statutes for handling, sharing, or storage of classified materials? Even after her training and her signing 2 documents that she understood the rules and penalties for not doing so. Remember as well that ignorance doesn't cut it in the eyes of the law.

On those emails showing no classifications.......where have you been? You do understand that material doesn't have to be marked to be classified don't you? Read the law and the protocols involved. Even the IG and a security expert involved in plowing through all of the emails have stated Hillarys claims about nothing being classified was sent via her server have publicly disputed that and provided the documentation for same.

What's ironic is that Hillary herself sent a cable to all of the State Dept employees etc regarding emails and the proper security and handling of classified materials and warning against using private emails which "gasp" she herself was violating. Don't believe me then google for the copy of the original cable...its there.

Your cop out is basically that if there was classified material on her server/pc it was because someone else sent it to her or she simply didn't understand or know the rules. Or....this which is even more ludicrous...."They ignore the facts involved and submit their own because that's what they want." In reality you sir are ignoring the facts and simply refusing to accept they even exist.

Its a fact that statutes were violated and there is ample documentation and I would suggest you use another avenue of support for Hillarys position. One involving the law and proving her gross negligence as Goat has done so thoroughly and quit stating that nothing ever happened involving her on a personal level. Your post makes it clear you feel if in fact there was classified material on her server or exchanges with others that she either didn't know the rules, or someone who didn't know the rules emailed her classified material, and most of all this classified material doesn't even exist. Not to offend you sir but you telling others their heads are buried in the sand is laughable on one level and sad on another.
By "they" I mean all those ignoring reality for their own unsupported, for the most part given the lack of prosecution in similar cases, take on it.

Which are your dyed in the wool rightwingers that have a hard time dealing with anything outside the border of their own thoughts.

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You are great at citing rules, regulations, it's reality that you're all having a hard time with.

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cleaned it up
 
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By "they" I mean all those ignoring reality for their own unsupported, for the most part given the lack of prosecution in similar cases, take on it.

Which are your dyed in the wool rightwingers that have a hard time dealing with anything outside the border of their own thoughts.

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You are great at citing rules, regulations, it's reality that you're all having a hard time with.

--
cleaned it up
Aw.........In those rules, regs etc posted were documented instances of violations of statutes, rules, protocols etc. I didn't figure you would respond to the facts but rather some short insult which you accomplished true to form.

Unsupported take on it......Do you live in a cave? I gave you numerous documented and supported examples including from the State Dept, Defense Dept, CIA, IG, security analyst, and many other sources. All of which I might add are part of this current administration.

My take on it includes someone is guilty of assorted crimes and someone should be indicted.

I took the time to point out the statutes, rules, exec orders etc involving and applicable to the documented examples. You mocked this fact. In general when you resort to attacking the messenger as opposed to the facts you have lost the debate.

It's a shame that perhaps you apparently think all these rules and regs on security are needless BS. It's pretty apparent Hillary felt the rules and regs total BS as well or at a minimum has shown a tendency pointing towards incompetence and negligence.

Whether she is indicted or not there were many well documented violations showing her complete disregard for security protocols. Dispute this with facts not insults sir...go ahead.

Lack of prosecution in similar cases you say. Ask former CIA Director John Deutch who took some classified material home with him to work on his unsecured personal laptops that were connected to his home commercial internet. President Clinton pardoned him.

There are many cases of prosecution for violations of security protocols by the way. Although Petraus was a slightly different set of circumstances they went after him using the very statutes and regs discussed in this thread and his charges also included the fact that he had signed numerous documents that he knew and understood the rules and penalties. The actual court documents are online for your review if you doubt it.

On January 22nd, 2009, the day after assuming the office of Secretary of State, Hillary Clinton signed a “Classified Information Nondisclosure Agreement” — or Standard Form 312. She signed and agreed to abide by these specific stipulations and punishments

1. Intending to be legally bound, I hereby accept the obligations contained in this Agreement in consideration of my being granted access to classified information. As used in this Agreement, classified information is marked or unmarked classified information, including oral communications, that is classified under the standards of Executive Order 12958, or under any other Executive order or statute that prohibits the unauthorized disclosure of information in the interest of national security; and unclassified information that meets the standards for classification and is in the process of a classification determination as provided in Sections 1.1. 1.2, 1.3 and 1.4(e) of Executive Order 12958, or under any other Executive order or statute that requires protection for such information in the interest of national security. I understand and accept that by being granted access to classified information, special confidence and trust shall be placed in me by the United States Government.

2. I hereby acknowledge that I have received a security indoctrination concerning the nature and protection of classified information, including the procedures to be followed in ascertaining whether other persons to whom I contemplate disclosing this information have been approved for access to it, and that I understand these procedures.

3. I have been advised that the unauthorized disclosure, unauthorized retention, or negligent handling of classified information by me could cause damage or irreparable injury to the United States or could be used to advantage by a foreign nation. I hereby agree that I will never divulge classified information to anyone unless: (a) I have officially verified that the recipient has been properly authorized by the United States Government to receive it; or (b) I have been given prior written notice of authorization from the United States Government Department or Agency (hereinafter Department or Agency) responsible for the classification of information or last granting me a security clearance that such disclosure is permitted. I understand that if I am uncertain about the classification status of information, I am required to confirm from an authorized official that the information is unclassified before I may disclose it, except to a person as provided in (a) or (b), above. I further understand that I am obligated to comply with laws and regulations that prohibit the unauthorized disclosure of classified information.

4. I have been advised that any breach of this Agreement may result in the termination of any security clearances I hold; removal from any position of special confidence and trust requiring such clearances; or termination of my employment or other relationships with the Departments or Agencies that granted my security clearance or clearances. In addition, I have been advised that any unauthorized disclosure of classified information by me may constitute a violation, or violations, of United States criminal laws, including the provisions of Sections 641, 793, 794, 798, *952 and 1924, Title 18, United States Code, *the provisions of Section 783(b), Title 50, United States Code, and the provisions of the Intelligence Identities Protection Act of 1982. I recognize that nothing in this Agreement constitutes a waiver by the United States of the right to prosecute me for any statutory violation.

Larry Mrozinski, who served almost four years as a senior military adviser and security manager in the State Department comments:

“Anybody else would have already lost their security clearance and be subjected to an espionage investigation,” Mrozinski added. “But apparently a different standard exists for Mrs. Clinton.”

Truth be told sir FACTS get in your way and as demonstrated here you ignore them with YOUR head in the sand.

Your correct about dealing with reality in this specific issue. The reality that people in high places, with connections, and protected by the admin responsible for enforcement of these many rules can escape prosecution sucks big time.

I am totally open and promise to be receptive to your thoughts showing, documenting, and proving that all of the classified materials found so far do not exist and Hillary wasn't involved. I have spent considerable time with providing facts and not fiction as opposed to paragraph long rants and one sentence long insults. You can't really defend her as you previous posted regarding the fact she might not have done anything wrong on purpose without making her look incompetent so you avoid the FACTS. Go through my several post and dispute each point with some kind of documentation, links, anything.

Wheres the BEEF?

 
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Aw.........In those rules, regs etc posted were documented instances of violations of statutes, rules, protocols etc. I didn't figure you would respond to the facts but rather some short insult which you accomplished true to form.

Unsupported take on it......Do you live in a cave? I gave you numerous documented and supported examples including from the State Dept, Defense Dept, CIA, IG, security analyst, and many other sources. All of which I might add are part of this current administration.

My take on it includes someone is guilty of assorted crimes and someone should be indicted.

I took the time to point out the statutes, rules, exec orders etc involving and applicable to the documented examples. You mocked this fact. In general when you resort to attacking the messenger as opposed to the facts you have lost the debate.

It's a shame that perhaps you apparently think all these rules and regs on security are needless BS. It's pretty apparent Hillary felt the rules and regs total BS as well or at a minimum has shown a tendency pointing towards incompetence and negligence.

Whether she is indicted or not there were many well documented violations showing her complete disregard for security protocols. Dispute this with facts not insults sir...go ahead.

Lack of prosecution in similar cases you say. Ask former CIA Director John Deutch who took some classified material home with him to work on his unsecured personal laptops that were connected to his home commercial internet. President Clinton pardoned him.

There are many cases of prosecution for violations of security protocols by the way. Although Petraus was a slightly different set of circumstances they went after him using the very statutes and regs discussed in this thread and his charges also included the fact that he had signed numerous documents that he knew and understood the rules and penalties. The actual court documents are online for your review if you doubt it.

On January 22nd, 2009, the day after assuming the office of Secretary of State, Hillary Clinton signed a “Classified Information Nondisclosure Agreement” — or Standard Form 312. She signed and agreed to abide by these specific stipulations and punishments

1. Intending to be legally bound, I hereby accept the obligations contained in this Agreement in consideration of my being granted access to classified information. As used in this Agreement, classified information is marked or unmarked classified information, including oral communications, that is classified under the standards of Executive Order 12958, or under any other Executive order or statute that prohibits the unauthorized disclosure of information in the interest of national security; and unclassified information that meets the standards for classification and is in the process of a classification determination as provided in Sections 1.1. 1.2, 1.3 and 1.4(e) of Executive Order 12958, or under any other Executive order or statute that requires protection for such information in the interest of national security. I understand and accept that by being granted access to classified information, special confidence and trust shall be placed in me by the United States Government.

2. I hereby acknowledge that I have received a security indoctrination concerning the nature and protection of classified information, including the procedures to be followed in ascertaining whether other persons to whom I contemplate disclosing this information have been approved for access to it, and that I understand these procedures.

3. I have been advised that the unauthorized disclosure, unauthorized retention, or negligent handling of classified information by me could cause damage or irreparable injury to the United States or could be used to advantage by a foreign nation. I hereby agree that I will never divulge classified information to anyone unless: (a) I have officially verified that the recipient has been properly authorized by the United States Government to receive it; or (b) I have been given prior written notice of authorization from the United States Government Department or Agency (hereinafter Department or Agency) responsible for the classification of information or last granting me a security clearance that such disclosure is permitted. I understand that if I am uncertain about the classification status of information, I am required to confirm from an authorized official that the information is unclassified before I may disclose it, except to a person as provided in (a) or (b), above. I further understand that I am obligated to comply with laws and regulations that prohibit the unauthorized disclosure of classified information.

4. I have been advised that any breach of this Agreement may result in the termination of any security clearances I hold; removal from any position of special confidence and trust requiring such clearances; or termination of my employment or other relationships with the Departments or Agencies that granted my security clearance or clearances. In addition, I have been advised that any unauthorized disclosure of classified information by me may constitute a violation, or violations, of United States criminal laws, including the provisions of Sections 641, 793, 794, 798, *952 and 1924, Title 18, United States Code, *the provisions of Section 783(b), Title 50, United States Code, and the provisions of the Intelligence Identities Protection Act of 1982. I recognize that nothing in this Agreement constitutes a waiver by the United States of the right to prosecute me for any statutory violation.

Larry Mrozinski, who served almost four years as a senior military adviser and security manager in the State Department comments:

“Anybody else would have already lost their security clearance and be subjected to an espionage investigation,” Mrozinski added. “But apparently a different standard exists for Mrs. Clinton.”

Truth be told sir FACTS get in your way and as demonstrated here you ignore them with YOUR head in the sand.

Your correct about dealing with reality in this specific issue. The reality that people in high places, with connections, and protected by the admin responsible for enforcement of these many rules can escape prosecution sucks big time.

I am totally open and promise to be receptive to your thoughts showing, documenting, and proving that all of the classified materials found so far do not exist and Hillary wasn't involved. I have spent considerable time with providing facts and not fiction as opposed to paragraph long rants and one sentence long insults. You can't really defend her as you previous posted regarding the fact she might not have done anything wrong on purpose without making her look incompetent so you avoid the FACTS. Go through my several post and dispute each point with some kind of documentation, links, anything.

Wheres the BEEF?


Hmmmmmm. No response. He must be doing some serious research.
 
Aw.........In those rules, regs etc posted were documented instances of violations of statutes, rules, protocols etc. I didn't figure you would respond to the facts but rather some short insult which you accomplished true to form.

Unsupported take on it......Do you live in a cave? I gave you numerous documented and supported examples including from the State Dept, Defense Dept, CIA, IG, security analyst, and many other sources. All of which I might add are part of this current administration.

My take on it includes someone is guilty of assorted crimes and someone should be indicted.

I took the time to point out the statutes, rules, exec orders etc involving and applicable to the documented examples. You mocked this fact. In general when you resort to attacking the messenger as opposed to the facts you have lost the debate.

It's a shame that perhaps you apparently think all these rules and regs on security are needless BS. It's pretty apparent Hillary felt the rules and regs total BS as well or at a minimum has shown a tendency pointing towards incompetence and negligence.

Whether she is indicted or not there were many well documented violations showing her complete disregard for security protocols. Dispute this with facts not insults sir...go ahead.

Lack of prosecution in similar cases you say. Ask former CIA Director John Deutch who took some classified material home with him to work on his unsecured personal laptops that were connected to his home commercial internet. President Clinton pardoned him.

There are many cases of prosecution for violations of security protocols by the way. Although Petraus was a slightly different set of circumstances they went after him using the very statutes and regs discussed in this thread and his charges also included the fact that he had signed numerous documents that he knew and understood the rules and penalties. The actual court documents are online for your review if you doubt it.

On January 22nd, 2009, the day after assuming the office of Secretary of State, Hillary Clinton signed a “Classified Information Nondisclosure Agreement” — or Standard Form 312. She signed and agreed to abide by these specific stipulations and punishments

1. Intending to be legally bound, I hereby accept the obligations contained in this Agreement in consideration of my being granted access to classified information. As used in this Agreement, classified information is marked or unmarked classified information, including oral communications, that is classified under the standards of Executive Order 12958, or under any other Executive order or statute that prohibits the unauthorized disclosure of information in the interest of national security; and unclassified information that meets the standards for classification and is in the process of a classification determination as provided in Sections 1.1. 1.2, 1.3 and 1.4(e) of Executive Order 12958, or under any other Executive order or statute that requires protection for such information in the interest of national security. I understand and accept that by being granted access to classified information, special confidence and trust shall be placed in me by the United States Government.

2. I hereby acknowledge that I have received a security indoctrination concerning the nature and protection of classified information, including the procedures to be followed in ascertaining whether other persons to whom I contemplate disclosing this information have been approved for access to it, and that I understand these procedures.

3. I have been advised that the unauthorized disclosure, unauthorized retention, or negligent handling of classified information by me could cause damage or irreparable injury to the United States or could be used to advantage by a foreign nation. I hereby agree that I will never divulge classified information to anyone unless: (a) I have officially verified that the recipient has been properly authorized by the United States Government to receive it; or (b) I have been given prior written notice of authorization from the United States Government Department or Agency (hereinafter Department or Agency) responsible for the classification of information or last granting me a security clearance that such disclosure is permitted. I understand that if I am uncertain about the classification status of information, I am required to confirm from an authorized official that the information is unclassified before I may disclose it, except to a person as provided in (a) or (b), above. I further understand that I am obligated to comply with laws and regulations that prohibit the unauthorized disclosure of classified information.

4. I have been advised that any breach of this Agreement may result in the termination of any security clearances I hold; removal from any position of special confidence and trust requiring such clearances; or termination of my employment or other relationships with the Departments or Agencies that granted my security clearance or clearances. In addition, I have been advised that any unauthorized disclosure of classified information by me may constitute a violation, or violations, of United States criminal laws, including the provisions of Sections 641, 793, 794, 798, *952 and 1924, Title 18, United States Code, *the provisions of Section 783(b), Title 50, United States Code, and the provisions of the Intelligence Identities Protection Act of 1982. I recognize that nothing in this Agreement constitutes a waiver by the United States of the right to prosecute me for any statutory violation.

Larry Mrozinski, who served almost four years as a senior military adviser and security manager in the State Department comments:

“Anybody else would have already lost their security clearance and be subjected to an espionage investigation,” Mrozinski added. “But apparently a different standard exists for Mrs. Clinton.”

Truth be told sir FACTS get in your way and as demonstrated here you ignore them with YOUR head in the sand.

Your correct about dealing with reality in this specific issue. The reality that people in high places, with connections, and protected by the admin responsible for enforcement of these many rules can escape prosecution sucks big time.

I am totally open and promise to be receptive to your thoughts showing, documenting, and proving that all of the classified materials found so far do not exist and Hillary wasn't involved. I have spent considerable time with providing facts and not fiction as opposed to paragraph long rants and one sentence long insults. You can't really defend her as you previous posted regarding the fact she might not have done anything wrong on purpose without making her look incompetent so you avoid the FACTS. Go through my several post and dispute each point with some kind of documentation, links, anything.

Wheres the BEEF?

You keep coming back with lots and lots of words, but they are the same words every single time.

This is really simple. It's not enough to prove that information ended up where it wasn't supposed to. You also have to prove that some particular person was negligent in allowing it to do so. Period.

Now, I'm not saying you can't do that. But I am saying you haven't done so*. You're basically just pointing to the situation and saying, "C'mon! She must have been negligent!" In a free society, which, thank the gods, we live in, that's not good enough. Prosecutors aren't allowed to just stand in front of a jury and say, "C'mon!"

* Meanwhile, I have offered evidence that suggests she wasn't negligent, namely the great care that her staff apparently took to avoid this very thing, as evidenced by the numerous released emails that detail them trying to avoid sending classified info over email. You've provided (repeatedly) the fact that she signed a document. Great. We've all read it. It's not enough. You also need to demonstrate that she somehow showed at least some disregard for that document. If she did her best to follow it, and info leaked through anyway, she's not culpable. Period. Honest accidents aren't criminal under this statute. That's why the language about gross negligence is included. You can't just look at the situation and assume negligence. This is a point I tried to repeatedly make, and some of you who are absolutely intent on convincing yourselves that Hillary is guilty of a felony refuse to even acknowledge it. Negligence must be proven. Period. Because that's how criminal justice works under our Constitution that you claim to love so much. You don't get to just throw away the rules of criminal procedure and due process because you don't like the defendant.
 
You keep coming back with lots and lots of words, but they are the same words every single time.

This is really simple. It's not enough to prove that information ended up where it wasn't supposed to. You also have to prove that some particular person was negligent in allowing it to do so. Period.

Now, I'm not saying you can't do that. But I am saying you haven't done so*. You're basically just pointing to the situation and saying, "C'mon! She must have been negligent!" In a free society, which, thank the gods, we live in, that's not good enough. Prosecutors aren't allowed to just stand in front of a jury and say, "C'mon!"

* Meanwhile, I have offered evidence that suggests she wasn't negligent, namely the great care that her staff apparently took to avoid this very thing, as evidenced by the numerous released emails that detail them trying to avoid sending classified info over email. You've provided (repeatedly) the fact that she signed a document. Great. We've all read it. It's not enough. You also need to demonstrate that she somehow showed at least some disregard for that document. If she did her best to follow it, and info leaked through anyway, she's not culpable. Period. Honest accidents aren't criminal under this statute. That's why the language about gross negligence is included. You can't just look at the situation and assume negligence. This is a point I tried to repeatedly make, and some of you who are absolutely intent on convincing yourselves that Hillary is guilty of a felony refuse to even acknowledge it. Negligence must be proven. Period. Because that's how criminal justice works under our Constitution that you claim to love so much. You don't get to just throw away the rules of criminal procedure and due process because you don't like the defendant.
I will respond later. I am going to bed. Its 5am..ugh.

But you done it again sir. You won't debate the issues and what has happened and documented and been produced. You revert back to you can't just assume negligence and thank god it has to be proven.

Everyone in this thread understand your often repeated phrase...we really do.

Having said that I think in this country we still have the right to free expression and the right to form our own opinions.

Do I think her guilty of negligence....yes
Do I think it's criminal.....yes
Do I think there is sufficient evidence to indict her....yes
Do I think it can be proven...yes
Do I trust the reported documentation from the various fed depts.....yes

And most importantly below.

Do I want her to receive a fair trial...yes

Ok Goat....I can have and opinion and I can form that opinion based upon the reported material?

I think she is guilty and have stated why I think so.

I don't have to prove it, the government does.

But I think they can. You don't but mannnnnyyy highly regarded and very experienced lawyers feel they can to. I know.....you have to prove gross negligence and her mental culpability. That is all you say and seem not to want to discuss the issues involved.

The post I was responding to was nothing more than telling those on my side of the fence on this issue that it was all in our imaginations and we couldn't face reality or deal with the truth. I pointed out the abundant evidence......

And my god once for all with the understanding it has to be proven.
 
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You keep coming back with lots and lots of words, but they are the same words every single time.

This is really simple. It's not enough to prove that information ended up where it wasn't supposed to. You also have to prove that some particular person was negligent in allowing it to do so. Period.

Now, I'm not saying you can't do that. But I am saying you haven't done so*. You're basically just pointing to the situation and saying, "C'mon! She must have been negligent!" In a free society, which, thank the gods, we live in, that's not good enough. Prosecutors aren't allowed to just stand in front of a jury and say, "C'mon!"

* Meanwhile, I have offered evidence that suggests she wasn't negligent, namely the great care that her staff apparently took to avoid this very thing, as evidenced by the numerous released emails that detail them trying to avoid sending classified info over email. You've provided (repeatedly) the fact that she signed a document. Great. We've all read it. It's not enough. You also need to demonstrate that she somehow showed at least some disregard for that document. If she did her best to follow it, and info leaked through anyway, she's not culpable. Period. Honest accidents aren't criminal under this statute. That's why the language about gross negligence is included. You can't just look at the situation and assume negligence. This is a point I tried to repeatedly make, and some of you who are absolutely intent on convincing yourselves that Hillary is guilty of a felony refuse to even acknowledge it. Negligence must be proven. Period. Because that's how criminal justice works under our Constitution that you claim to love so much. You don't get to just throw away the rules of criminal procedure and due process because you don't like the defendant.
Mirror Mirror on the Wall
 
I will respond later. I am going to bed. Its 5am..ugh.

But you done it again sir. You won't debate the issues and what has happened and documented and been produced. You revert back to you can't just assume negligence and thank god it has to be proven.

Everyone in this thread understand your often repeated phrase...we really do.

Having said that I think in this country we still have the right to free expression and the right to form our own opinions.

Do I think her guilty of negligence....yes
Do I think it's criminal.....yes
Do I think there is sufficient evidence to indict her....yes
Do I think it can be proven...yes
Do I trust the reported documentation from the various fed depts.....yes

And most importantly below.

Do I want her to receive a fair trial...yes

Ok Goat....I can have and opinion and I can form that opinion based upon the reported material?

I think she is guilty and have stated why I think so.

I don't have to prove it, the government does.

But I think they can. You don't but mannnnnyyy highly regarded and very experienced lawyers feel they can to. I know.....you have to prove gross negligence and her mental culpability. That is all you say and seem not to want to discuss the issues involved.

The post I was responding to was nothing more than telling those on my side of the fence on this issue that it was all in our imaginations and we couldn't face reality or deal with the truth. I pointed out the abundant evidence......

And my god once for all with the understanding it has to be proven.
Due respect, but you haven't defended your opinion at all, other than an unsupported claim that Clinton disregarded the rules. You keep repeating the rules. We know them. You repeat that Clinton was aware of them. We know. Show us evidence that she actually broke them.

Your response to IU-C (something like "I promise to have an open mind about your evidence that these emails weren't on her server") is inconsistent with what you are claiming now, but is consistent with what I accused you of: assuming Clinton was negligent without necessary evidence.
 
Due respect, but you haven't defended your opinion at all, other than an unsupported claim that Clinton disregarded the rules. You keep repeating the rules. We know them. You repeat that Clinton was aware of them. We know. Show us evidence that she actually broke them.

Your response to IU-C (something like "I promise to have an open mind about your evidence that these emails weren't on her server") is inconsistent with what you are claiming now, but is consistent with what I accused you of: assuming Clinton was negligent without necessary evidence.

What would it take for someone to be "negligent" in this instance in your opinion? You two keep posting the same point over and over again and by your postings I can't see anyway that you feel someone would ever be negligent unless they were intentionally sending info to the enemy. And I just do not see that as the intent to the laws and regulations that Cajun is posting (nor is that the interpretation that we in the government are given with how we are required to handle this type of data.)
 
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