USMC to divest M1A1 Abrams

[TomEric4756]

Lt. Gen. Kellogg reported today.

It’s in the USMC budget: https://www.secnav.navy.mil/fmc/fmb/Documents/22pres/OMMC_Book.pdf
vii) Force Application. M1A1 Modification decrease is due to divestment of the M1A1 Mod Kit program, discontinued sustainment of the M1A1 Tanks. (Baseline: $35,086)

Kellogg also reported the Marines would switch from Howitzers to rocket artillery.
Rockets may have more range, but
Rockets can’t fire canister at low elevations for point self defense.

The Marine armored brigade was a feared combat unit.
It’s hard to drive inland from the beach with no tanks.

 

[JamieDimonsBalls]

Lt. Gen. Kellogg reported today.

It’s in the USMC budget: https://www.secnav.navy.mil/fmc/fmb/Documents/22pres/OMMC_Book.pdf
vii) Force Application. M1A1 Modification decrease is due to divestment of the M1A1 Mod Kit program, discontinued sustainment of the M1A1 Tanks. (Baseline: $35,086)

Kellogg also reported the Marines would switch from Howitzers to rocket artillery.
Rockets may have more range, but
Rockets can’t fire canister at low elevations for point self defense.

The Marine armored brigade was a feared combat unit.
It’s hard to drive inland from the beach with no tanks.

What do @Aloha Hoosier @INRanger27 and @MrBing think? Is any of shift related to recent conflicts (e.g., Afghanistan, Iraq)?

 

[anon_mlxxvlbug9dpa]

What do @Aloha Hoosier @INRanger27 and @MrBing think? Is any of shift related to recent conflicts (e.g., Afghanistan, Iraq)?

The marines have always been jacks of all trades. Narrowing their focus and capabilities can create more expertise and competence in their task list. Marines are supposed to be shock troops. As long as they have some kind of armor to theoretically take a beachhead then they don’t need the big tanks.

 

[TomEric4756]

The marines have always been jacks of all trades. Narrowing their focus and capabilities can create more expertise and competence in their task list. Marines are supposed to be shock troops. As long as they have some kind of armor to theoretically take a beachhead then they don’t need the big tanks.

I can work with that as a thesis for the plan. In Iraq, the Marines used M60s because the M1A1 was too big for the ships at that time. Bradleys and MRAPs can get the Marines off the beachhead. It would seem hard to beat the 105 high velocity cannon should a hardened target come into view. The New Jersey isn’t off-shore anymore.

 

[JamieDimonsBalls]

I can work with that as a thesis for the plan. In Iraq, the Marines used M60s because the M1A1 was too big for the ships at that time. Bradleys and MRAPs can get the Marines off the beachhead. It would seem hard to beat the 105 high velocity cannon should a hardened target come into view. The New Jersey isn’t off-shore anymore.

how much does it matter given the importance of air superiority?

 

[TomEric4756]

how much does it matter given the importance of air superiority?

Even with Air Superiority, It Depends on how many minutes the aircraft take to get there.
Hard points on pylons have limitations… if you miss you may not get a second chance.
… As some of the rails will get used for Air to Air
Gunship support can’t be everywhere all the time.
Calling in the strike assumes communications aren’t jammed.

Hunkering down under cover makes a force an ambush target.

Reducing the flexibility of ground forces increases the need for intelligence to foresee the need for air support for hard targets.

(No body gave Iraqis, ISIS, and the Taliban stinger missiles to challenge US tactical air support).

 

[JamieDimonsBalls]

Even with Air Superiority, It Depends on how many minutes the aircraft take to get there.
Hard points on pylons have limitations… if you miss you may not get a second chance.
… As some of the rails will get used for Air to Air
Gunship support can’t be everywhere all the time.
Calling in the strike assumes communications aren’t jammed.
Hunkering down under cover makes a force an ambush target.

how about drone use? Seems like a game changer if sorts

 

[anon_mlxxvlbug9dpa]

how much does it matter given the importance of air superiority?

They’re not related. The tanks or armor substitute provide protected mobility from ground targets fighting from hardened positions. Air power is suspect against hardened positions if our troops are in the area. Yes a JDAM can destroy a bunker but they won’t drop one if our guys are 200 meters away from it.

If we are ever in a conflict where we need that armor to take a beach then the shit has really hit the fan and we’ll have a suitable replacement. Marines don’t need Abrams. Let the Army do the conventional fighting with them and let Marines focus on what they do best.

 

[JamieDimonsBalls]

They’re not related. The tanks or armor substitute provide protected mobility from ground targets fighting from hardened positions. Air power is suspect against hardened positions if our troops are in the area. Yes a JDAM can destroy a bunker but they won’t drop one if our guys are 200 meters away from it.

If we are ever in a conflict where we need that armor to take a beach then the shit has really hit the fan and we’ll have a suitable replacement. Marines don’t need Abrams. Let the Army do the conventional fighting with them and let Marines focus on what they do best.

does you opinion change related to tanks based on Russia’s ineffectiveness? Obviously there are differences, but just curious since we’ve seen how poor tanks have performed.

 

[anon_mlxxvlbug9dpa]

does you opinion change related to tanks based on Russia’s ineffectiveness? Obviously there are differences, but just curious since we’ve seen how poor tanks have performed.

Tanks have very limited and specific uses. Open field combat, force protection in convoys, etc. They aren’t useful in MOUT and most of our existential enemies don’t have them. Our tanks are much better than Putin’s and we know how to use and protect them better. I’d say there are no lessons learned on the modern relevance of tanks from what we’re seeing other than “just having a tank doesn’t make you good.”

 

[Marvin the Martian]

I wonder if amphibious assaults are likely any longer, the ability to hit ships is much higher today. We did do an amphibious assault in Granada, we had some limited objective assaults in Vietnam. Inchon was the last great assault and it was against an empty beach.

Overall I suspect armor is going the way of cavalry. Thanks were already very limited by how easy they are to knock out, drone swarms will make them very difficult to use anywhere near a front.

 

[MrBing]

What do @Aloha Hoosier @INRanger27 and @MrBing think? Is any of shift related to recent conflicts (e.g., Afghanistan, Iraq)?

It's not something I know much about.

 

[Marvin the Martian]

It's not something I know much about.

Right, so you should have VERY strong opinions. It is the law of the internet.

 

[Aloha Hoosier]

What do @Aloha Hoosier @INRanger27 and @MrBing think? Is any of shift related to recent conflicts (e.g., Afghanistan, Iraq)?

I served in two amphib ships and the embarked Marine Battalions never loaded an Abrams tank on either ship. Didn't seem to be part of their combat load for initial landings. I remember the 60 Minutes episode way back when they introduced the Abrams tank and I was very impressed, but I'm not an expert on tanks by any means.

 

[CO. Hoosier]

I wonder if amphibious assaults are likely any longer, the ability to hit ships is much higher today. We did do an amphibious assault in Granada, we had some limited objective assaults in Vietnam. Inchon was the last great assault and it was against an empty beach.

Overall I suspect armor is going the way of cavalry. Thanks were already very limited by how easy they are to knock out, drone swarms will make them very difficult to use anywhere near a front.

Beating tanks, the old fashioned way. Show ‘em the money.

 

[76-1]

Lt. Gen. Kellogg reported today.

It’s in the USMC budget: https://www.secnav.navy.mil/fmc/fmb/Documents/22pres/OMMC_Book.pdf
vii) Force Application. M1A1 Modification decrease is due to divestment of the M1A1 Mod Kit program, discontinued sustainment of the M1A1 Tanks. (Baseline: $35,086)

Kellogg also reported the Marines would switch from Howitzers to rocket artillery.
Rockets may have more range, but
Rockets can’t fire canister at low elevations for point self defense.

The Marine armored brigade was a feared combat unit.
It’s hard to drive inland from the beach with no tanks.

If Mattis thinks it's a bad idea it's probably a bad idea...

Top Marine Defends Corps’ Lighter Direction

Gen. Berger responded to retired four-stars’ critiques by saying he’s building the right force to deter China.

www.defenseone.com

The clear conflict point to me is giving up both the tanks And two squadrons of attack helicopters... The Attack Helicopters would seemingly fill the void left by the tanks... Why dump all of that firepower???

 

[76-1]

Here's what the Pro's think of it..., and it's not in the affirmative... :

How two dozen retired generals are trying to stop an overhaul of the Marines

Current plans call for shedding troops and equipment in preparation to take on China.

www.politico.com

Jeopardizing national security: What is happening to our Marine Corps?

One retired 3-star says he is "saddened beyond belief" knowing the Corps won't soon be "the ready combined-arms force that our nation has long depended upon."

www.marinecorpstimes.com

 

[anon_mlxxvlbug9dpa]

If Mattis thinks it's a bad idea it's probably a bad idea...

Top Marine Defends Corps’ Lighter Direction

Gen. Berger responded to retired four-stars’ critiques by saying he’s building the right force to deter China.

www.defenseone.com

The clear conflict point to me is giving up both the tanks And two squadrons of attack helicopters... The Attack Helicopters would seemingly fill the void left by the tanks... Why dump all of that firepower???

Are they still flying the old Cobras and/or cobra variants? They’re really old technology and the Army has such better stuff and synergies amongst the different aircraft.

Marines should shove it in the eye of the Air Force and reclaim the Warthogs.

 

[76-1]

Are they still flying the old Cobras and/or cobra variants? They’re really old technology and the Army has such better stuff and synergies amongst the different aircraft.

Marines should shove it in the eye of the Air Force and reclaim the Warthogs.

I believe the thought has always been (with the Cobras) was their ability to be maintained in a combat environment...

The thought now seems to be that the dual use (VSTOL Varient) F 35 covers (which is odd because there are clearly maintaince issues with that platform). both the CAS role and the interdiction role and they figured they couldn't afford more..., But..., in my opinion, a perfect world would include the Warthogs, and even up armored OV-10's, along with attack helicopters, that could both operate from austere runways and provide immediate CAS when needed... While vulnerable, they both still fill multiple roles and would be there and operating when you Really need them rather down for maintenance... It would seem to me that if you're dumping artillery tubes and tanks..., And 2 squadrons of attack helicopters you need to make up the difference somewhere...

 

[anon_mlxxvlbug9dpa]

I believe the thought has always been (with the Cobras) was their ability to be maintained in a combat environment...

The thought now seems to be that the dual use (VSTOL Varient) F 35 covers (which is odd because there are clearly maintaince issues with that platform). both the CAS role and the interdiction role and they figured they couldn't afford more..., But..., in my opinion, a perfect world would include the Warthogs, and even up armored OV-10's, along with attack helicopters, that could both operate from austere runways and provide immediate CAS when needed... While vulnerable, they both still fill multiple roles and would be there and operating when you Really need them rather down for maintenance... It would seem to me that if you're dumping artillery tubes and tanks..., And 2 squadrons of attack helicopters you need to make up the difference somewhere...

I don’t think we have OV-10s anywhere in the supply chain. I think the issue with the Marines wanting to continue to be a self-contained force is logistics and reality. If we need to transport all of that gear and armor into a China beachhead it would take a miracle and all of it just for a tiny beachhead. War with China would require multiple beachheads and taking airstrips of which would preclude the need to amphibiously assault. Once beachheads are established, marines become conventional infantry. And the army can provide the armor.

 

[76-1]

I don’t think we have OV-10s anywhere in the supply chain. I think the issue with the Marines wanting to continue to be a self-contained force is logistics and reality. If we need to transport all of that gear and armor into a China beachhead it would take a miracle and all of it just for a tiny beachhead. War with China would require multiple beachheads and taking airstrips of which would preclude the need to amphibiously assault. Once beachheads are established, marines become conventional infantry. And the army can provide the armor.

The tanks I can understand (cutting them and deferring to the Army). The rest they've already proven they can deploy and support (on their own)...

Why they would choose to give up that type of capability and close support seems foolish, at best...

I'll defer to the Pros I linked above (Retired Generals) for the final word on the subject however... That's not just a bunch of old guys who don't understand the reality of the modern battlefield, any one of them could provide better leadership than what we currently have at the top...

*( the OV-10s are still available for rapid production if the decision were to be made to do so (and they are relatively cheap)... I just threw them in on my "fantasy wish list" along with the Warthog (which the Air Force is determined to chop up into razor blades)...)*

Edit: I was in error as to the OV10's, while the schematics are there, an OV10 assembly line would nearly be starting from scratch (but it still just might be worth the small investment compared to the type of money we throw at everything else)... If they're ever going to do it, the time is now, while the guys with the knowledge of how to build and upgrade them are still available...

 

[76-1]

Just tripped over this article that has things looking even more grim for the USMC:

Navy Wants To Cut Two Nearly New Sea Base Ships That Are Like Nothing Else

The Montford Point class ships provide a nexus between logistical ships and the shore that seems ideal for new Navy and Marine strategies.

www.thedrive.com

First the Commandant himself proposes to gut the Corps and now the Navy appears to propose, in essence, to cut their ability to project force past a two week window by sinking (mothballing) their support & supply ships... You can't project force as a seaborne Expiditionary Unit without seaborne support and supply...

I knew the DOD was damn weak at the top but I never dreamed that extended downward...

Aloha can you weigh in on what these jokers are thinking???

I know the other services have wanted to kill off the Marine Corps since the late "40's" but I never dreamed the Navy would be complicit in helping them get it done...

Have the Chinese infiltrated the decision makers at the Pentagon???

 

[UncleMark]

Keep this shit up and next thing you know they'll be phasing out muskets and cannons.

 

[DANC]

Keep this shit up and next thing you know they'll be phasing out muskets and cannons.

Muskets and cannons have been upgraded. Their function is still in use, just modernized.

We haven't abandoned the plan of shooting or shelling the enemy.

 

[76-1]

Muskets and cannons have been upgraded. Their function is still in use, just modernized.

We haven't abandoned the plan of shooting or shelling the enemy.

With Austen, and Milley in charge that might just be next...

Most General Officers on active duty Ever in the history of the United States and we end up with those two clowns leading the parade... 😖

 

[DANC]

With Austen, and Milley in charge that might just be next...

Most General Officers on active duty Ever in the history of the United States and we end up with those two clowns leading the parade... 😖

Austen doesn't bother me as much as Milley.

Austen seems sincere, even if I don't agree with him. Milley seems like a total political animal who got where he was by kissing ass and going along with whoever was his commanding officer at the time.

But I don't know - it's just an impression. I do know I don't like what I see in Milley and it's more than just a visceral reaction.

 

[sglowrider]

Muskets and cannons have been upgraded. Their function is still in use, just modernized.

We haven't abandoned the plan of shooting or shelling the enemy.

As long as they dont hire these guys:

 

[JamieDimonsBalls]

Beating tanks, the old fashioned way. Show ‘em the money.

View embedded media

One of my all time favorites. Can you get a better cast than Rickles, Eastwood, Savalas and Sutherland? Fun plot, great characters.

 

[JamieDimonsBalls]

As long as they dont hire these guys:

View embedded media

the guy in the light camp didn’t spin. I blame old age

 

[DrHoops]

Lt. Gen. Kellogg reported today.

It’s in the USMC budget: https://www.secnav.navy.mil/fmc/fmb/Documents/22pres/OMMC_Book.pdf
vii) Force Application. M1A1 Modification decrease is due to divestment of the M1A1 Mod Kit program, discontinued sustainment of the M1A1 Tanks. (Baseline: $35,086)

Kellogg also reported the Marines would switch from Howitzers to rocket artillery.
Rockets may have more range, but
Rockets can’t fire canister at low elevations for point self defense.

The Marine armored brigade was a feared combat unit.
It’s hard to drive inland from the beach with no tanks.

^^^Learned military a strategy on Call of Duty.

I guess the Marines just don’t know what they’re doing. 🤷‍♂️

 

[DrHoops]

As long as they dont hire these guys:

View embedded media

That’s why Barney Fife could only have one bullet and he had to keep it in his pocket.

 

[76-1]

^^^Learned military a strategy on Call of Duty.

I guess the Marines just don’t know what they’re doing. 🤷‍♂️

Just the one guy making the decisions... Berger

 

[76-1]

the guy in the light camp didn’t spin. I blame old age

I blame stupidity for even attempting to practice that type of drill without getting himself in shape...

The chances of either of those two idiots ever needing to be proficient at that particular move is close to less than zero...; not to mention that if they intended to use it outdoors they'd be setting themselves up for a "kill two dummies with one shot" scenario if their adversary was firing back at them with a rifle chambered in .308 and up...; even a hot round from a lesser caliber could probably go thru and thru the Pillsbury Dougboy and knock his pal out of the fight too... Could probably be able to even do that with a .357 pistol round (or bigger)...

Seeing that kind of nonsense is why I only shoot with people I've known for decades (and I still have to be aware if they've lost a step in regard to firearm safety)... And...,we Never do any of that silly sh-t...

 

[CO. Hoosier]

One of my all time favorites. Can you get a better cast than Rickles, Eastwood, Savalas and Sutherland? Fun plot, great characters.

And Carroll O’Connor. All in their stereotypical best characters.

 

[DANC]

As long as they dont hire these guys:

View embedded media

Meal Team 6 lmao!

I got my 'playing war' over by the time I was 12 or so. Some guys never do.

 

[JamieDimonsBalls]

And Carroll O’Connor. All in their stereotypical best characters.

Ha, I forgot about him. He was great as "Patton".