Update from WDRB's Rick Bozich

Coach Geez

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Nope. Time to do this correctly, for a change. Beilein, while a good coach, would be a band aid, at best. Why would you advocate such a shortsighted approach, especially since you were so slow to recognize that Miller wasn’t capable of building our program back up?

1. IU needs to win and win now first and foremost. If the new coach is there 20+ years then its obviously a cherry on top. But outside Stevens (who I have serious doubts about landing), there simply isn't a better coach available than Beilein. Build the program back up and you're in a much better place to make an even better hire 5-7 years down the road. IU cannot afford another 4-5 years of purgatory. If Beilein is a band-aid so be it, IU will be back to the top.

2. Wasn't ever slow to recognize Archie's capabilities. From the entirety I said Archie was going to get and deserved four years. All along I said year 4 was going to be his make or break year, after year 4 is when you fire or extend a coach. Some coaches hit it right out of the gate, some take 3-4 years to get the ball rolling(Wright/Beilein/Bennett, etc). But year 4 is a clear indicator of a coaches trajectory.
 

.Gerdis

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The only reason you take Beilein is if he sells you on an assistant he brings with him that will be a no-brainer to succeed him. He's old. His first 3 years at Michigan were not good, and his third year was so under expectations he was on the hot seat (and I don't see any roster he inherits (including a transfer or two) will be better than what he had at Michigan at the start). IU needs to find "the guy" and establish long term credibility with recruits.

Question:

Much has been stated about his slow start at Mi. Is it possible that it was an adjustment to the B10? In other words, did he change his offense or defensive approach to better suit the change to B10 play from W VA? If so, I would expect a smoother transition all other things being equal.
 

Birnk403

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The only reason you take Beilein is if he sells you on an assistant he brings with him that will be a no-brainer to succeed him. He's old. His first 3 years at Michigan were not good, and his third year was so under expectations he was on the hot seat (and I don't see any roster he inherits (including a transfer or two) will be better than what he had at Michigan at the start). IU needs to find "the guy" and establish long term credibility with recruits.
Exactly. Hiring him requires a verifiable Plan B from the outset, which is problematic when you understand and accept that we’ve spent the last 20+ years demonstrating that we can’t even get Plan A correct.
 

TrojanFan004

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Nope. Time to do this correctly, for a change. Beilein, while a good coach, would be a band aid, at best. Why would you advocate such a shortsighted approach, especially since you were so slow to recognize that Miller wasn’t capable of building our program back up?
Yet you want Pitino who is the same age. Classic.
 
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Coach Geez

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The only reason you take Beilein is if he sells you on an assistant he brings with him that will be a no-brainer to succeed him. He's old. His first 3 years at Michigan were not good, and his third year was so under expectations he was on the hot seat (and I don't see any roster he inherits (including a transfer or two) will be better than what he had at Michigan at the start). IU needs to find "the guy" and establish long term credibility with recruits.

Beilein didn't have near the name recognition in 2008 as he does today. With the new transfer rule, you don't need 2-3 classes to get ready guys in place like he did when he took the Michigan job. He's a stud transfer from making IU a tournament team next year, and 2-3 could have IU competing for a B10 title. He would do wonders for someone like Lander. Look at PG's like Derrick Walton and Xavier Simpson and their 4 year progressions under Beilein. Franklin and Stewart as lead guards will be fine. Add a stretch 4 and/or a competent big and IU is winning 20+ games next year with Beilein.
 

Birnk403

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1. IU needs to win and win now first and foremost. If the new coach is there 20+ years then its obviously a cherry on top. But outside Stevens (who I have serious doubts about landing), there simply isn't a better coach available than Beilein. Build the program back up and you're in a much better place to make an even better hire 5-7 years down the road. IU cannot afford another 4-5 years of purgatory. If Beilein is a band-aid so be it, IU will be back to the top.

2. Wasn't ever slow to recognize Archie's capabilities. From the entirety I said Archie was going to get and deserved four years. All along I said year 4 was going to be his make or break year, after year 4 is when you fire or extend a coach. Some coaches hit it right out of the gate, some take 3-4 years to get the ball rolling(Wright/Beilein/Bennett, etc). But year 4 is a clear indicator of a coaches trajectory.
Beilein wouldn’t win right away. He likely wouldn’t win for at least three years, when he’s in his early 70’s. Why set the program up for more coaching turnover, even if we’re somehow winning (which is no sure thing). This hire should be a long term one, not a bandaid.

You didn’t jump off the Miller bandwagon u til late in the season. Until then, you weren’t able to see the shortcomings that a few of us did. Sorry, but that’s fact.
 

Coach Geez

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You didn’t jump off the Miller bandwagon u til late in the season. Until then, you weren’t able to see the shortcomings that a few of us did. Sorry, but that’s fact.

Again, was never on or off the Archie bandwagon until the end of this year. Saying that Archie was going to get 4 years regardless doesn't change that. You also said that Archie at minimum was going to get 5 years because there was no pressure under him.
 

Columbus-Boiler

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Question:

Much has been stated about his slow start at Mi. Is it possible that it was an adjustment to the B10? In other words, did he change his offense or defensive approach to better suit the change to B10 play from W VA? If so, I would expect a smoother transition all other things being equal.

IDK, sometimes when taking over a program the roster hinders you, and I think it will for new IU coach too at the start.

Beilein first 3 years by school:

Canisius 2/3 good years (2nd year, third year)
Richmond 1/3 good years (1st year)
West Virginia 1/3 good years (third year)
Michigan 1/3 good years (second year).

This doesn't prove anything of course, but it could suggest he needs some time to get a program in order and all his ducks in a row. He's never come out on fire, and he's old, that's my only concern.
 
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Columbus-Boiler

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Beilein didn't have near the name recognition in 2008 as he does today. With the new transfer rule, you don't need 2-3 classes to get ready guys in place like he did when he took the Michigan job. He's a stud transfer from making IU a tournament team next year, and 2-3 could have IU competing for a B10 title. He would do wonders for someone like Lander. Look at PG's like Derrick Walton and Xavier Simpson and their 4 year progressions under Beilein. Franklin and Stewart as lead guards will be fine. Add a stretch 4 and/or a competent big and IU is winning 20+ games next year with Beilein.

I guess I see the roster differently.....I LOVE Franklin as a player but after that there isn't much there (unless TJD returns). Everybody else is adding top recruits or a good transfer or two as well. The league isn't stagnant.
 

Birnk403

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Again, was never on or off the Archie bandwagon until the end of this year. Saying that Archie was going to get 4 years regardless doesn't change that. You also said that Archie at minimum was going to get 5 years because there was no pressure under him.
Back away from it all you want, but you failed to see what several of us did at the start of the year.
 

Coach Geez

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Question:

Much has been stated about his slow start at Mi. Is it possible that it was an adjustment to the B10? In other words, did he change his offense or defensive approach to better suit the change to B10 play from W VA? If so, I would expect a smoother transition all other things being equal.

Changing his approach probably had some to do with it, but in 2008 immediate transfer waivers weren't a thing. He truly needed 2-3 recruiting classes to get guys in place. You can do that in a single year in this day in age. Beilein did extremely well with transfers towards the end of his tenure at Michigan and was a key part in his roster construction. No reason to think he couldn't do it at IU.
 
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Birnk403

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I guess I see the roster differently.....I LOVE Franklin as a player but after that there isn't much there (unless TJD returns). Everybody else is adding top recruits or a good transfer or two as well. The league isn't stagnant.
Geez always thought we had plenty of talent and failed to see it was one of Miller’s shortcomings (recruiting).
 

Birnk403

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Changing his approach probably had some to do with it, but in 2008 immediate transfer waivers weren't a thing. He truly needed 2-3 recruiting classes to get guys in place. You can do that in a single year in this day in age. Beilein did extremely well with transfers towards the end of his tenure at Michigan and was a key part in his roster construction. No reason to think he couldn't do it at IU.
If he was 58, I would agree. He’s 68 and parents and recruits will immediately (and rightly) wonder if he’ll be the coach during their entire time at IU. He might be able to honestly say yes for his first class only. That will be an easy thing to recruit against, and opposing coaches will do so.
 

Coach Geez

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I guess I see the roster differently.....I LOVE Franklin as a player but after that there isn't much there (unless TJD returns). Everybody else is adding top recruits or a good transfer or two as well. The league isn't stagnant.

Franklin, Stewart, and Thompson (assuming he stays) are good pieces to work with. Hunter is absolutely someone who would thrive in Beilein's system and Geronimo shows a ton of upside. Although Lander was absolutely terrible this last year, I haven't given up hope with him, especially if he's being coached up by Beilein. Yes competing right away is dependant on adding a transfer or two, but with the amount of transfers available, and quality transfers at that, have no doubts about Beilein being able to sign impact day 1 guys.
 

Columbus-Boiler

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If he was 58, I would agree. He’s 68 and parents and recruits will immediately (and rightly) wonder if he’ll be the coach during their entire time at IU. He might be able to honestly say yes for his first class only. That will be an easy thing to recruit against, and opposing coaches will do so.

Any of these guys at the top of their game?

10 Oldest Coaches in College Basketball (sportige.com)
 

Columbus-Boiler

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Franklin, Stewart, and Thompson (assuming he stays) are good pieces to work with. Hunter is absolutely someone who would thrive in Beilein's system and Geronimo shows a ton of upside. Although Lander was absolutely terrible this last year, I haven't given up hope with him, especially if he's being coached up by Beilein. Yes competing right away is dependant on adding a transfer or two, but with the amount of transfers available, and quality transfers at that, have no doubts about Beilein being able to sign impact day 1 guys.

I'm not disagreeing wholly with that assessment, I'm just saying 1) Only Franklin appears to be a difference maker on the current roster at the moment 2) Most of the other B1G teams can make the same projections and confidence for improvement from glue guys and newcomers.

It would also probably be unreasonable to assume IU will be receiving good players without losing any to the transfer portal.
 

Columbus-Boiler

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That's an older list but Leonard Hamilton is recruiting better than he ever has.


My bad, didn't notice it was from 2016.... But maybe 1 guy (Hamilton) is at the top of his game then. Maybe two if you assume Coach K will bounce back and stop crying about COVID next year.
 

Columbus-Boiler

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A good pool of guys whom we should contact to build our program. We can play early, eat early, and go to bed early. Wonder if the thermostat in AH will be turned up to 80 degrees.

You will get all the best recruits from The Villages in Florida ;)
 

Coach Geez

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I'm not disagreeing wholly with that assessment, I'm just saying 1) Only Franklin appears to be a difference maker on the current roster at the moment 2) Most of the other B1G teams can make the same projections and confidence for improvement from glue guys and newcomers.

It would also probably be unreasonable to assume IU will be receiving good players without losing any to the transfer portal.

You just said only Franklin is a difference maker (I disagree) so even in the event they do lose players to the portal would you not say whoever is replacing them are likely to be better, given they are committing to Beilein? Beilein could absolutely go out and land a knock down shooter and add a competent big or two.
 

Courtsensetwo

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It wasn't a popular opinion then (or now, I'm sure). But, when the Simon-Skjodt family made that large donation, I thought they should've considered a down payment toward replacing AH.

I know that many consider it iconic -- and understandably so. And I know that it's sacrilege among many sports fans to even discuss razing facilities they consider sacred.

But, sentimentality aside, it's really not a great facility -- even after the recent facelift.

I disagree, I think it is a great facility. Certainly would not want a sterile soulless space like MSU or Ahia have or a dump like Williams or mackey.

Any arena over 15K will have seats up high. Yes a few in the upper corners are not good, but hardly a reason to disparage an iconic space with comfortable seats, good sound manageement and amazing video systems. Sacred ground.

Visiting fans for Football games often want to see if they can get a peek, and the main level entry used to be open with the perch in the northwest corned. There was the same hush of people getting a view and taking photos usually saved for touring on old cathedral in Europe.

Tearing this down would be a crime upon the soul of college basketball.
 

Courtsensetwo

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Gonna have to eliminate some student tickets if you want the old atmosphere back.

My position here is well-documented on this subject. I wanted Glass to sell 2,000 of the 8.000 student seats to the waiting list of young alumni and others with low point totals. Fill the balconies up with people who show up for all games not just the big game.

Glass never did it but hopefully Scott will.
 
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Birnk403

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Gonna have to eliminate some student tickets if you want the old atmosphere back.
The challenge at IU (and many other schools) is that students who don’t attend games while on campus rarely become ticket holders once they graduate. It’s part of the reason IU’s basketball season ticket wait list has essentially evaporated (this is obviously results driven, too) and why simply having fewer student tickets isn’t the panacea that some believe it to be. In other words, student attendees are the most likely to be future season ticket holders and athletic donors, so limiting their ability to attend while they’re in school isn’t necessarily the answer to solving attendance issues by replacing them with general public attendees. Providing a winning program is still the best option, by far.
 

crazed_hoosier2

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I disagree, I think it is a great facility. Certainly would not want a sterile soulless space like MSU or Ahia have or a dump like Williams or mackey.

Any arena over 15K will have seats up high. Yes a few in the upper corners are not good, but hardly a reason to disparage an iconic space with comfortable seats, good sound manageement and amazing video systems. Sacred ground.

Visiting fans for Football games often want to see if they can get a peek, and the main level entry used to be open with the perch in the northwest corned. There was the same hush of people getting a view and taking photos usually saved for touring on old cathedral in Europe.

Tearing this down would be a crime upon the soul of college basketball.

As I said, this is a very commonly held view. And I totally get it -- to some degree, I even sympathize with it.

I just don't ultimately agree with it. SSAH was built in an era that architectural historians would just as soon forget -- and that includes virtually all sporting venues constructed in that era. They lack both the rustic charm of older facilities (Hinkle, Cameron, Fenway, etc.) and the state-of-the-art trappings of modern facilities like Bankers Life or Yum.

The seats at AH are, in a word, awful -- it's like sitting in a commuter aircraft. It would be nice if there were cupholders, but there's no room for them. There are hundreds, if not thousands, of obstructed view seats -- an unforgivable design flaw, even in 1971. The concessions and restrooms are way below modern standards. Private/corporate accommodations are still sparse, but better after the renovation.

I realize that visitors want to get a peek inside, etc. You're referring to the sentimental value of the facility, which I've acknowledged. A whole, whole lot of people made similar arguments when the Yankees decided to replace Yankee Stadium. You mean...you're going to tear down the House that Ruth Built? Heresy!! And, to some degree, Yankee fans still miss the old YS. But not many of them want to go back after visiting the new one.
 

Courtsensetwo

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Ugh...so dumb...the 2,000 that are not showing up aren't primary target market anyway. 6,000 students that show up will be plenty of feed for the future. Sell the tickets now for a higher price than student seats to young alumni who cannot currently get in and let them grow points and become long-term season ticket holders. That is how I started...up in section CC.

Marketing 101.

win-win.
 

Birnk403

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As I said, this is a very commonly held view. And I totally get it -- to some degree, I even sympathize with it.

I just don't ultimately agree with it. SSAH was built in an era that architectural historians would just as soon forget -- and that includes virtually all sporting venues constructed in that era. They lack both the rustic charm of older facilities (Hinkle, Cameron, Fenway, etc.) and the state-of-the-art trappings of modern facilities like Bankers Life or Yum.

The seats at AH are, in a word, awful -- it's like sitting in a commuter aircraft. It would be nice if there were cupholders, but there's no room for them. There are hundreds, if not thousands, of obstructed view seats -- an unforgivable design flaw, even in 1971. The concessions and restrooms are way below modern standards. Private/corporate accommodations are still sparse, but better after the renovation.

I realize that visitors want to get a peek inside, etc. You're referring to the sentimental value of the facility, which I've acknowledged. A whole, whole lot of people made similar arguments when the Yankees decided to replace Yankee Stadium. You mean...you're going to tear down the House that Ruth Built? Heresy!! And, to some degree, Yankee fans still miss the old YS. But not many of them want to go back after visiting the new one.
To frame it more precisely, it was designed a full decade before it was constructed, which made it even more outdated.
 

Birnk403

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Ugh...so dumb...the 2,000 that are not showing up aren't primary target market anyway. 6,000 students that show up will be plenty of feed for the future. Sell the tickets now for a higher price than student seats to young alumni who cannot currently get in and let them grow points and become long-term season ticket holders. That is how I started...up in section CC.

Marketing 101.

win-win.
Simply providing facts based on what IU and other universities are seeing with regard to student ticket holders and their future buying and donating habits. You can be dismissive of it, but the attendance patterns don’t lie. You claimed the basketball wait list was robust until I made it clear that wasn’t accurate. Interestingly, you’ve now changed your view on that. A deeper dive on this would take you beyond your short term perspectives.
 

Spartans9312

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The challenge at IU (and many other schools) is that students who don’t attend games while on campus rarely become ticket holders once they graduate. It’s part of the reason IU’s basketball season ticket wait list has essentially evaporated (this is obviously results driven, too) and why simply having fewer student tickets isn’t the panacea that some believe it to be. In other words, student attendees are the most likely to be future season ticket holders and athletic donors, so limiting their ability to attend while they’re in school isn’t necessarily the answer to solving attendance issues by replacing them with general public attendees. Providing a winning program is still the best option, by far.
What's the difference in numbers of allocated student tickets now compared to the Knight years?
 

Tony Warwick

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It wasn't a popular opinion then (or now, I'm sure). But, when the Simon-Skjodt family made that large donation, I thought they should've considered a down payment toward replacing AH.

I know that many consider it iconic -- and understandably so. And I know that it's sacrilege among many sports fans to even discuss razing facilities they consider sacred.

But, sentimentality aside, it's really not a great facility -- even after the recent facelift.
Are we trying to recruit players or fans? For players, it's an unbelievable facility. For fans, it has improved considerably since the reno and has some really nice amenities.
 

Courtsensetwo

Hall of Famer
Oct 16, 2004
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As I said, this is a very commonly held view. And I totally get it -- to some degree, I even sympathize with it.

I just don't ultimately agree with it. SSAH was built in an era that architectural historians would just as soon forget -- and that includes virtually all sporting venues constructed in that era. They lack both the rustic charm of older facilities (Hinkle, Cameron, Fenway, etc.) and the state-of-the-art trappings of modern facilities like Bankers Life or Yum.

The seats at AH are, in a word, awful -- it's like sitting in a commuter aircraft. It would be nice if there were cupholders, but there's no room for them. There are hundreds, if not thousands, of obstructed view seats -- an unforgivable design flaw, even in 1971. The concessions and restrooms are way below modern standards. Private/corporate accommodations are still sparse, but better after the renovation.

I realize that visitors want to get a peek inside, etc. You're referring to the sentimental value of the facility, which I've acknowledged. A whole, whole lot of people made similar arguments when the Yankees decided to replace Yankee Stadium. You mean...you're going to tear down the House that Ruth Built? Heresy!! And, to some degree, Yankee fans still miss the old YS. But not many of them want to go back after visiting the new one.

Some points well-taken but there are certainly not 1,000 slightly obstructed seats...this is a myth perpetuated by pu fans and a handful of others who have never been there. The seats are tight and no cup holders but that is a minor inconvenience. Concessions and restrooms are just ok but have improved in recent years...again minor stuff IMO. The upper deck seats in BLF are awful, the floor is a postage stamp. I went up there one game and never again. Balcony CC is a pretty daamed good seat for thos who like to watch the flow of the game.
 

Birnk403

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What's the difference in numbers of allocated student tickets now compared to the Knight years?
It’s always been significant . . . somewhere in the 40%-45% of all public season tickets have been allocated for students. The variance has often been related to faculty and staff allotments, which fluctuate somewhat.
 

MikeHoncho69

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Jan 15, 2018
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Ugh...so dumb...the 2,000 that are not showing up aren't primary target market anyway. 6,000 students that show up will be plenty of feed for the future. Sell the tickets now for a higher price than student seats to young alumni who cannot currently get in and let them grow points and become long-term season ticket holders. That is how I started...up in section CC.

Marketing 101.

win-win.
This whole argument has a very simple resolution: clone the "Izzone" student section at the Breslin Center and call it a day. That in itself would improve the game-day atmosphere.
 
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