Tucker Carlson: Not just a pretty face
- Thread starter sglowrider
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Is what he said incorrect?
(Don't throw eggs).
You can discuss the idea of cultural/racial interaction without being called a racist.
Are we really that sensitive?
I think you can reconstruct his 'report' in another way but more critically, the problem is his audience.
They may not see it in the context of 'cultural/racial interaction' the same way you or I see/discuss it.
But the question was, is his point wrong?
Not sure how you could measure the statement that no society has changed this much this quickly, but that is probably the loosest piece.
Like I said earlier, he is stoking fear in his audience.
As a minority who has lived as a minority in quite a number of countries now, you antennas go up whenever you hear this sort of reports. It's not a pleasant sensation.
Our prisms are different.
What people fail to understand is that if people are open to multi-culturalism, the world would actually be a more peaceful place. We are forced to understand each other and compromise.
It's not a threat as what Tucker is selling - a threat to one's identity.
I think what people fail to understand is that multi-culturalism is the culprit. Shouldn’t we strive for a common culture? A common culture in in the US seems to me is what the founding fathers, Lincoln, and MLK envisioned. It’s not easy to achieve and might always be an aspiration. Sadly, it seems to me that we have abandoned the notion of a common culture and common social compact as we drift towards maintaining and furthering our cultural differences. Cultural and individual assimilation is not seen as a worthy goal.
Still awake CoH?
Spoken like a person who has only known to live as a 'majority' race.
The common culture as you call it will always be the culture of the victors. I dont see you wearing and assimilating the culture of the Native Americans right?
In my experience, minority groups will always be the ones to compromise the most and unfortunately, without the majority recognising or appreciating their compromises.
What the majority will do is to think that it's the minorities that have to assimilate rather than an embrace of differences.
America has always been recognised in the eyes of the world of being a unique country -- regardless of creed, race and social status etc, you can make it if you worked hard etc.
It's also a country built on the backs of immigrants and supposedly a welcoming one at that. You just don't have the same thing in the UK, France, Germany etc.
You lose that, you lose what makes America in the eyes of the world, special.
When you start to insist that it's 'my way' or the highway, then you lose the strength of what made America what it was before. It will only be a reflection of the incumbents' insecurities, which is what that Tucker report is playing to.
The Orginal Sin (of racism) is never far from the surface. Its 'reports' like what Fox spews out regularly that never allows the country to move forward.
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Did we really strive for a common culture? Look at the Creole culture that still exists today from our purchase of Louisiana as an example. Don't like it, we had a distinct German culture in this country until it was ended by WW1. As I have pointed out, one entire corps of the Union Army spoke German. Still don't buy it, try the Native reservations. We have always allowed multi cultural life. And we always had the Know Nothings who hated it.
When people travelled in the time of Lincoln, they easily could pass through areas heavily German, then heavily Irish, then heavily Italian. All kept much of their culture with them. That is why they huddled together. Then we forced huddling together on the Chinese, Natives, and Africans to live together.
I am sorry but there is so much bull shit in that. Have you ever been to the southwest U.S.? You want to tell me that Mexican culture has not been integrated in as part of the mainstream culture? Music? U.S. popular music is heavily influenced by the black community...past and present. It was just a week or so ago that Bruno Mars was accused of cultural appropriation because of the music he does. Sushi is huge throughout parts of the U.S. Now food is not the sum total of culture but it is a part. Of course you are not going to find it to be like Japan here, the majority of the country is not Japanese. But we do borrow.
There is a heavy European influence for sure but most of us have some European in our background (even in the minority community). There are things throughout U.S. culture that are borrowed from the immigrants who came here. I would be willing to bet that there is a larger percentage of mixing done in this country than in the majority of countries around the world.
Christ on a stick.
You really are quite the anachronism. And thanks for reminding me how parochial pockets of Indiana still is.
He’s right from my point of view as someone that has lived all over the country, from the East Coast to the Midwest to the West Coast to Hawaii, and also in two other countries. What is controversial about what he posted?
Edit: also Texas.
He’s right from my point of view as someone that has lived all over the country, from the East Coast to the Midwest to the West Coast to Hawaii, and also in two other countries. What is controversial about what he posted?
Edit: also Texas.
I am going out for dinner now -- sushi.
I will get back to you tomorrow.
I prefer sashimi.I am going out for dinner now -- sushi.
I will get back to you tomorrow.
Get bent. Seriously, you think that the U.S. is any different than anywhere else? I believe you said that you are ethnic Chinese (I could be wrong about that, if I am, forgive me). But taking your analogy, how awesome has it been for Tibetans and Uighurs to live under the Han Chinese? Any correlation to Native Americans? And I believe you are in Singapore, no?
https://www.google.com/amp/m.scmp.c...chinese-privilege-singapore-why-asia-so?amp=1
Guess it looks like y'all have a bit of a racism problem there to. You probably do not notice it because you moved to a place where you got to be the dominant culture. Maybe you got a little racisty racism in you too, hmm?
I am glad you found your way to backward ass Indiana so that all of us stupid hicks who help support the state school could help give you an education though.
Also, I will take your ad hominem in place of an actual rebuttal as agreement with what I posted. You know I am right and you got nothing. Enjoy your under cooked fish.
I believe the main point of his segment - that this is suddenly happening at breakneck speed - is incorrect.
Sounds incorrect to me...US history is full of cases of rapid influxes of immigrant groups...all producing similar backlash...all resulting in a much stronger and creative country ex post.
That was whiny white privilege at its finest. A snowflake, if you will. Keep in mind that it’s still a helluva lot harder for a minority to get ahead in this country white folks (and especially white males) have everything set up specifically for them.
The country is going to change towards a minority (aggregated) majority situation in the next few decades.
And, that’s perfectly fine. Our country’s composition has changed multiple times since it’s founding, and it’ll change multiple Times more in the future.
I think what most are missing is the the tone, and especially the last part of that segment. When he basically says that immigrants are bad, and they’re too many immigrants due to reckless immigration policy. THAT is the racist part. It’s immigrants being bad simply because they’re “different”. At least that’s how I took his commentary.
That is what I think the OP is getting at with this post. And he’s correct, IMO.
I get what many are saying. I’m a white guy. I used to think and feel the same way. Until I married a black woman, and had two beautiful mixed race kids. After letting my guard down and listening to her, I can spot white privilege quickly now. And not much else pisses me off more than seeing white people act entitled now. And yes, I also realize that I used to act like that at times.
The OP’s point about seeing things through different lenses is spot on, IMO. Unless you try to see it from a minority’s point of view, we’ll never move forward as a country. They’re got an entirely different story re: America. And it’s just as valid as the majority's story (white people). And there’s no reason why we can’t start having these discussions, so we can start breaking down mistrust and stereotypes. I promise you that at their core, people are all the same. It just takes some empathy and understanding sometimes.
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anon_mlxxvlbug9dpa
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Well that’s the thing, he’s not really saying anything defensible or indefensible (other than claiming that we can’t absorb this kind of change which sounds like something two old coots on rocking chairs on a Cracker Barrel porch would say). He also doesn’t demonstrate that this rate is scientifically proven to be the fastest in history. He’s just rambling.
That said, I don’t find it to be bigoted or white nationalist. I think it’s just unsourced ramblings catering to the Fox White base.
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anon_mlxxvlbug9dpa
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anon_mlxxvlbug9dpa
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I don’t disagree with you - but you’ve gotta be really careful in how you define the envisioned common culture. Because it is likely to resemble your biases and personal likes/wants vs something reasonable.
You can talk simply all you want about common culture being individual responsibility, love thy neighbor, participate in republic politics, etc. But that all goes out the window with not understanding why people want Confederate monuments razed and why rap music is ok and why ATMs are in multiple languages. In short, while I’m far from a white-guilt guy, whites are the ones who need to bend more.
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anon_mlxxvlbug9dpa
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That rapid changes to demographics in a localized society can create volatility.
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anon_mlxxvlbug9dpa
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Again see my other post. I don’t think he’s saying anything racially charged or bigoted. I think he’s been just talking out of his ass - like he always does. He offers no proof of anything whatsoever.
Whereas one can easily drudge up proof of how nationalism has horrifying consequences depending on its levels of implementation.
I don't necessarily take issue with any of that. I was simply responding to the thread started b/c he felt Tucker was offensive.
For starters, the piece is pure and unadulterated sophistry. Just one example: "...and this is happening all over America...not happening where our leaders live..." Which is it, Carl? Can't have it both ways. Practically everything he says is unrelated logically to anything else he says, he just pastes it together so he can "draw" his conclusions about immigrants "causing" radical change to our society. No point in belaboring that. The piece is junk demagoguery for any objective observer.
That said, the topic of culture change as discussed here in this thread is very interesting. It's important tease out (at least) two threads of cultural change that I think are getting conflated in this thread and also to define what we mean by culture.
From this it's clear to see that:
1. The culture in any group will tend to change through time as the members evolve, membership changes, and individual and group knowledge, values, and behaviors evolve.
2. Cultural changes in very large groups like "American society" are far more complex than a single factor such as the influx of immigrants.
3. The influx of immigrants is the original and ongoing history of the US, so that's part of the fabric of "American culture," whatever that might be defined to be.
4. The concept of multi-culturalism is nebulous (where do you draw the lines between one sub-culture and another?) and vulnerable to sophistry and demagoguery. We're all free to know, believe, and behave as we choose within the parameters of our laws and law-abiding citizens of all "sub-cultures" do so, so what's the problem?
5. Legal statutes form one aspect of common culture that set boundaries on behavior.
6. and so on...
Bottom line is the world has changed drrrraaassstically in the last few decades, we are now inextricably part of a multi-cultural world, more as a consequence of our business acumen and outreach than any outside factors imposing themselves on us, our internet-age chlidren are growing up without arbitrary geographical boundaries, and our knowledge base is expanding exponentially, so all of these aspects of our daily life are effecting cultural changes, by definition, completely independent Carlsen's (is that Scandinavian?) narrow point about immigrants.
That said, the topic of culture change as discussed here in this thread is very interesting. It's important tease out (at least) two threads of cultural change that I think are getting conflated in this thread and also to define what we mean by culture.
Definition of culture
1a : the customary beliefs, social forms, and material traits of a racial, religious, or social group; also : the characteristic features of everyday existence (such as diversions or a way of life) shared by people in a place or time
There's a lot in those four definitions. Culture seems to boil down to knowledge, values/beliefs, and behaviors shared by a group.1a : the customary beliefs, social forms, and material traits of a racial, religious, or social group; also : the characteristic features of everyday existence (such as diversions or a way of life) shared by people in a place or time
- popular culture
- Southern culture
- a corporate culture focused on the bottom line
- studying the effect of computers on print culture
- Changing the culture of materialism will take time … —Peggy O'Mara
From this it's clear to see that:
1. The culture in any group will tend to change through time as the members evolve, membership changes, and individual and group knowledge, values, and behaviors evolve.
2. Cultural changes in very large groups like "American society" are far more complex than a single factor such as the influx of immigrants.
3. The influx of immigrants is the original and ongoing history of the US, so that's part of the fabric of "American culture," whatever that might be defined to be.
4. The concept of multi-culturalism is nebulous (where do you draw the lines between one sub-culture and another?) and vulnerable to sophistry and demagoguery. We're all free to know, believe, and behave as we choose within the parameters of our laws and law-abiding citizens of all "sub-cultures" do so, so what's the problem?
5. Legal statutes form one aspect of common culture that set boundaries on behavior.
6. and so on...
Bottom line is the world has changed drrrraaassstically in the last few decades, we are now inextricably part of a multi-cultural world, more as a consequence of our business acumen and outreach than any outside factors imposing themselves on us, our internet-age chlidren are growing up without arbitrary geographical boundaries, and our knowledge base is expanding exponentially, so all of these aspects of our daily life are effecting cultural changes, by definition, completely independent Carlsen's (is that Scandinavian?) narrow point about immigrants.
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anon_mlxxvlbug9dpa
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That point is almost certainly true but is not Carlson's point. Carlson's point is that it is unjust to "impose" rapid demographic change on "localized societies" without having a "debate". But who deserves the larger voice in such a "debate"? Should the immigrants who have moved in to Hazelton Pa and who now constitute a majority be given a voice in the question? If those who lived there first should be prioritized then should we consult principally the Native Americans? The OP is correct about Carlson. This is the same old nativism and racism we see throughout American history. But the problem here goes well beyond race and extends to our tradition of local control. Incumbent groups of NIMBYs routinely exploit local control to drive policies that are inimical to our collective welfare in order to protect their narrow special interests. Such policies are routinely punitive and exclusionary towards those who do not enjoy local citizenship rights. California is suffering heavily because of local bans on building desperately needed housing. Our urban areas in particular need to allow a great deal MORE density than incumbent residents desire. So we get stupid sprawl. In sum, Carlson's implication is not just racist it is also more broadly harmful to our general well-being.
You're both wrong, we only allow red meat and potatoes in the midwest.
I’m picky about my sashimi after living in Japan where it was always freshly caught the day it was served. I rarely eat it in the Midwest. If they get it flown in that day I’ll eat it. Most places don’t do that.
You are pretty much wrong about everything here, except I have always lived as a “majority” race. But I read, think, and talk to people, including a Chachtaw who has become a pretty good friend, but he is a lawyer so there is that.
Your first problem is that you see race and skin color as a “culture”. While I don’t deny that groups of people coalesce around skin color, the culture that might spring from that had nothing to do with race. The point is that in the US we can have a common culture that is comprised of people of various races. This is likely aspirational, but it should always be the goal.
Your second problem is that you, like many liberals, see world history as groups victims and victors. That is very Howard Zinn-like, so that might be what you are taught. While that is no doubt true in the sense that the world is largely shaped by war, you are flat dead wrong if you believe that the loser culture is lost to the winning culture. There is no better example of how wrong you are than the American West. Almost everything that is associated with our Western Culture is rooted in Spanish and Mexican culture. Spanish culture dominates everything you think of when you think of western culture. We do have the English system of law out here in Colorado (you do know what “Colorado” means, don’t you?) but most of what made up our history is largely Spanish. And Spanish is a native language in America, don’t let that slip by you. (We need to be bilingual in many places). In pockets in the West, native culture has blended with English and Spanish to form a common culture.* In South and Central America, we see blends of Spanish and Inca, Mayan, and Aztec, to form a common culture.
I agree America has always been seen as a place where people can excell with individual effort. I have written about that often here as I have said some liberal approaches to a heavily regulated society with ever expanding safety nets inhibits that. But the key is still a common culture, common goals, common objectives, and a common morality.
*Sadly there are those “multiculturalists” who want to rip apart the common culture we have built in favor of, well, segregated cultures.
I cannot get past the raw part of quite a bit of sushi. I try to be open to things but that is just one that never caught on for me.
Try the red tuna. Start with some that is seared on the outside, but rare in the middle. It’s a small step from that to raw, and it’s worth it.
Right. Why focus on the "immigrants"? Any shift can upset a local community. What about a Walmart coming in and putting mommas and poppas out of business? Where's the faux outrage from Tucker? Whatt about an industry moving in and polluting the living bejesus out of the environment? These are also cultural changes having a serious affect on the local community. How about a interstate highway getting ramrodded through a community? Shit happens in our country.
Furthermore, my biggest suspicion about the Carlsen piece is what was the state of that town before the immigration? Was it another town getting deserted by its residents because of factory closings? What about the faux outrage of a culture leaving the community? Flow in, flow out. Why is flow in the culprit rather than flow out, if fingers must be pointed and blame assigned?
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