Tom Crean & Georgia

IU? I'm Fine

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Here’s the thing with Dakich: he talks a lot about “Calvin” (and Kelvin too) with respect to always knowing he was a ethically corrupt. He mentions all of the signs that were ignored about the guy and IU hired him anyway.
So......why the hell would you go work for the guy knowing all of this? That part is never explained.
Not a fan of Dakich. Daughters went to BGSU while Dakich was coach there. Followed relatively closely his exploits after being hired away by WVU. Then he allegedly found more problems and apparently asked for more $$$. They declined and he went back to BGSU. Never had the same success because recruiting had probably fizzled due to his...ahem...hovering and overly controlling every aspect of players. He also was clean...and probably let Greenspan know he was always available for the top coaching position or aspired to it.

So did Greenspan find out before Dakich's hire that stuff was going to hit the fan relative to Sampson, Senderoff, and Meyer? Yeah. Very likely, most probably...I think certainly.

So Greenspan and Dakich had a little discussion...I envision. Greenspan warned Dakich about stuff at IU. Dakich took the job thinking that he was sitting pretty...even though at the beginning his position did not include recruiting.

So did Dakich know that Sampson was ethically corrupt? Well, we all knew Sampson was on NCAA Probation. The reason for Dakich to go with IU is clear to me. Dakich had his sights on the head coaching position.

But it was in reality a losing proposition. Dakich was clean. Greenspan needed someone there that was clean. Dakich was never going to be considered for the top position imho. But, if successful, he might have used the visibility as a springboard. The players revolted. Dakich knew he was toast. He cleared out those he and Greenspan thought needed to go. Game over. Thank goodness Dakich is not coaching at IU. Now he just says anything to get clicks and listeners.
 
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Birnk403

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Not a fan of Dakich. Daughters went to BGSU while Dakich was coach there. Followed relatively closely his exploits after being hired away by WVU. Then he allegedly found more problems and apparently asked for more $$$. They declined and he went back to BGSU. Never had the same success because recruiting had probably fizzled due to his...ahem...hovering and overly controlling every aspect of players. He also was clean...and probably let Glass know he was always available for the top coaching position or aspired to it.

So did Glass find out before Dakich's hire that stuff was going to hit the fan relative to Sandusky, Sampson and Meyer? Yeah. Very likely, most probably...I think certainly.

So Glass and Dakich had a little discussion...I envision. Glass warned Dakich about stuff at IU. Dakich took the job thinking that he was sitting pretty...even though at the beginning his position did not include recruiting.

So did Dakich know that Sampson was ethically corrupt? Well, we all knew Sampson was on NCAA Probation. The reason for Dakich to go with IU is clear to me. Dakich had his sights on the head coaching position.

But it was in reality a losing proposition. Dakich was clean. Glass needed someone there that was clean. Dakich was never going to be considered for the top position imho. But, if successful, he might have used the visibility as a springboard. The players revolted. Dakich knew he was toast. He cleared out those he and Glass thought needed to go. Game over. Thank goodness Dakich is not coaching at IU. Now he just says anything to get clicks and listeners.
Rick Greenspan was the AD then, not Glass. And are you talking about Senderoff, rather than “Sandusky”?
 
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achoosier

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Kelvin was the wrong hire for the wrong reasons but he wasn't the worst hire we've made. Hopefully Woodson will change our string of bad hires.

Ranking of hires

1) Woodson (optimistic)
2) Sampson
3) Miller
4) Crean
5) Davis

3 thru 5 is tough to order.
Davis was the worst. Braindead hire that really started the twenty year spiral.
 

Al Bino

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Not a fan of Dakich. Daughters went to BGSU while Dakich was coach there. Followed relatively closely his exploits after being hired away by WVU. Then he allegedly found more problems and apparently asked for more $$$. They declined and he went back to BGSU. Never had the same success because recruiting had probably fizzled due to his...ahem...hovering and overly controlling every aspect of players. He also was clean...and probably let Glass know he was always available for the top coaching position or aspired to it.

So did Glass find out before Dakich's hire that stuff was going to hit the fan relative to Sandusky, Sampson and Meyer? Yeah. Very likely, most probably...I think certainly.

So Glass and Dakich had a little discussion...I envision. Glass warned Dakich about stuff at IU. Dakich took the job thinking that he was sitting pretty...even though at the beginning his position did not include recruiting.

So did Dakich know that Sampson was ethically corrupt? Well, we all knew Sampson was on NCAA Probation. The reason for Dakich to go with IU is clear to me. Dakich had his sights on the head coaching position.

But it was in reality a losing proposition. Dakich was clean. Glass needed someone there that was clean. Dakich was never going to be considered for the top position imho. But, if successful, he might have used the visibility as a springboard. The players revolted. Dakich knew he was toast. He cleared out those he and Glass thought needed to go. Game over. Thank goodness Dakich is not coaching at IU. Now he just says anything to get clicks and listeners.

Ahhh, there is a problem with your rant. Greenspan, not Glass, hired and fired Sampson.
 
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Why would it count if IU immediately revoked the scholly and he never made it to campus. Remember when the IU football team had stabbings on campus in Bloomington? Is there uproar to the coach at that time?
You could have just said no. You could have just thought "no" and went back to your bong.

Instead, you unleashed this beauty. "Is there uproar to the coach at that time?"

There are so many things wrong with this jumble of words that masquerades as a sentence. I don't have the time or inclination to point them all out. Plus, that sentence makes you look dumber than any retort I could conjure anyway. So, just take it in and behold its stunning Cavishness. Watch it linger like a cloud of recently exhaled Pineapple Express. Behold it in all its idiotic glory.
 
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Cavanagh.13

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You could have just said no. You could have just thought "no" and went back to your bong.

Instead, you unleashed this beauty. "Is there uproar to the coach at that time?"

There are so many things wrong with this jumble of words that masquerades as a sentence. I don't have the time or inclination to point them all out. Plus, that sentence makes you look dumber than any retort I could conjure anyway. So, just take it in and behold its stunning Cavishness. Watch it linger like a cloud of recently exhaled Pineapple Express. Behold it in all its idiotic glory.

Looks like you had fun with that reply. Leave the weed out of it, my “high” IQ, is no correlation. Back to the Pineapple Express indeed.
 

Coach Geez

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Why would it count if IU immediately revoked the scholly and he never made it to campus. Remember when the IU football team had stabbings on campus in Bloomington? Is there uproar to the coach at that time?
His scholarship wasn't immediately pulled. He remained committed to IU up until the day he took a plea deal. He couldn't enroll at IU because he was being sent to federal prison. What about Eli Holman? The guy who missed his entire junior year after punching out a referee during a game and who later, while on suspension, was shot in the head at a gang affiliated party.
 
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Cavanagh.13

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His scholarship wasn't immediately pulled. He remained committed to IU up until the day he took a plea deal. He couldn't enroll at IU because he was being sent to federal prison. What about Eli Holman? The guy who missed his entire junior year after punching out a referee during a game and who later, while on suspension, was shot in the head at a gang affiliated party.

Not all saints, look at MSU's rap sheet of criminals. I am all for trying to help kids with questionable backgrounds, gonna have some guys that cant be fixed. Happens in a lot of places.
 

Coach Geez

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Not all saints, look at MSU's rap sheet of criminals. I am all for trying to help kids with questionable backgrounds, gonna have some guys that cant be fixed. Happens in a lot of places.
I don't necessarily disagree there, people do deserve second chances to a degree. But Sampson had only been at IU for a New York minute and was readily and willingly recruiting a bunch of troubled kids. It was a development that was becoming a problem and nobody was putting a stop to it.
 

Seyton

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I don't necessarily disagree there, people do deserve second chances to a degree. But Sampson had only been at IU for a New York minute and was readily and willingly recruiting a bunch of troubled kids. It was a development that was becoming a problem and nobody was putting a stop to it.
That is totally void of context. In my opinion Sampson forced a lot by having to try to maximize his one season with D.J. White and Eric Gordon. He took crazy chances on kids (those of us familiar with Chicago hoops knew it as soon as we heard Thomas and Ellis) he wouldn't ordinarily simply because of the pressure of that one season. In my opinion he was just hoping to get through it.

It wasn't a developing problem - he had normal recruits everyone had heard of lined up for his next classes.

Just my opinion.
 

Coach Geez

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That is totally void of context. In my opinion Sampson forced a lot by having to try to maximize his one season with D.J. White and Eric Gordon. He took crazy chances on kids (those of us familiar with Chicago hoops knew it as soon as we heard Thomas and Ellis) he wouldn't ordinarily simply because of the pressure of that one season. In my opinion he was just hoping to get through it.

It wasn't a developing problem - he had normal recruits everyone had heard of lined up for his next classes.

Just my opinion.
Bud Mackey was a recruit for the 2008 class set to join the team AFTER Gordon and White were to leave. Eli Holman was a 2007 recruit not expected to play much as a freshman after sitting out his junior and most of senior year recovering from a gunshot wound. Those aren't normal recruits lined up anyway you try and slice it.
 
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Birnk403

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That is totally void of context. In my opinion Sampson forced a lot by having to try to maximize his one season with D.J. White and Eric Gordon. He took crazy chances on kids (those of us familiar with Chicago hoops knew it as soon as we heard Thomas and Ellis) he wouldn't ordinarily simply because of the pressure of that one season. In my opinion he was just hoping to get through it.

It wasn't a developing problem - he had normal recruits everyone had heard of lined up for his next classes.

Just my opinion.
I think there’s a great deal of truth to this, but the academic issues were significant and pervasive, really from the start. That, combined with his willingness to shade the truth repeatedly, blew him up in the eyes of the IU Administration.
 
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Seyton

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Bud Mackey was a recruit for the 2008 class set to join the team AFTER Gordon and White were to leave. Eli Holman was a 2007 recruit not expected to play much as a freshman after sitting out his junior and most of senior year recovering from a gunshot wound. Those aren't normal recruits lined up anyway you try and slice it.
That's true, but Holman was at a party and I don't think Mackey had committed his crimes yet. Regardless, you're right about those two, but generally speaking I think everything else was normal (going forward).
 

Seyton

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I think there’s a great deal of truth to this, but the academic issues were significant and pervasive, really from the start. That, combined with his willingness to shade the truth repeatedly, blew him up in the eyes of the IU Administration.
True - he definitely didn't get through that one season. Blew up is an understatement. I think a lot of that element would have been gone the very next season. The one kid I was really disappointed in was Bassett. I really liked him buy I think he was a problem child as well.
 

Coach Geez

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That's true, but Holman was at a party and I don't think Mackey had committed his crimes yet. Regardless, you're right about those two, but generally speaking I think everything else was normal (going forward).
I don't think Holman was doing anything wrong per se, but was at a gang affiliated party when it happened. Doesn't excuse him for punching out a referee though. That should have been a tell-tale warning sign right there.

I agree, not all his recruits were bad apples, but he was recruiting very questionable kids in such a short time frame that was a cause for concern.
 
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Seyton

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I don't think Holman was doing anything wrong per se, but was at a gang affiliated party when it happened. Doesn't excuse him for punching out a referee though. That should have been a tell-tale warning sign right there.

I agree, not all his recruits were bad apples, but he was recruiting very questionable kids in such a short time frame that was a cause for concern.
Right, all I'm saying is I don't think he would have continued to.
 

Coach Geez

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Right, all I'm saying is I don't think he would have continued to.
We say that, but I'm sure we all said the same thing about him cleaning up his act that got him in trouble at Oklahoma. You give these coaches an inch and they'll take a mile.
 
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Birnk403

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True - he definitely didn't get through that one season. Blew up is an understatement. I think a lot of that element would have been gone the very next season. The one kid I was really disappointed in was Bassett. I really liked him buy I think he was a problem child as well.
Was told that AB was actually a pretty good kid but that he was very immature and, while in need of some tough love, he didn’t always respond very well to it. I know the academic staff, which was already in transition, was not pleased with how they were perceived by some of the coaching staff.
 
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Coach Geez

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Was told that AB was actually a pretty good kid but that he was very immature and, while in need of some tough love, he didn’t always respond very well to it. I know the academic staff, which was already in transition, was not pleased with how they were perceived by some of the coaching staff.
Same guy who poured bleach on his girlfriend in front of his son? No clue what kind of person AB was before that incident but that type of behavior doesn't develop overnight.
 

Birnk403

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Same guy who poured bleach on his girlfriend in front of his son? No clue what kind of person AB was before that incident but that type of behavior doesn't develop overnight.
I’m talking about the kid at IU, not after he left. Again, was told he was very immature when he arrived in Bloomington. He was a symptom of a much bigger problem.
 

oldcougar77

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Same guy who poured bleach on his girlfriend in front of his son? No clue what kind of person AB was before that incident but that type of behavior doesn't develop overnight.
I have a close friend who taught Bassett in high school at Terre Haute. He was plenty of trouble. Holman also had hs transcript issues, I seem to remember a story about his relationship with a guidance counselor that was the source of a lot of speculation regarding grades.

People seem to forget that Sampson had a 0% graduation rate at OU. Let that sink in - not a single kid who played for him earned a degree. When he was hired at IU his response to that was that he had to recruit those kinds of kids to be successful at a non-bball school and state (jucos who were non-qualifiers out of hs, kids with low SAT scores, kids with sketchy pasts) . He swore that he would not need to take those kinds of kids at IU because of such a rich basketball heritage. Yet those are exactly the kinds of kids he immediately set out to bring in here. KS wasn't just a guy who made improper phone calls like hundreds of other coaches. He was a liar at heart - someone who had no contrition or remorse for past transgressions and who had no intention of changing. He was just concerned about not getting caught.

That was the same approach he took with player conduct and academics. He was interested in keeping players eligible and their character/legal problems covered up. My daughter was a student at IU at the time, living at Varsity Villas. Several bball players lived there as well. My daughter talked to me about their behavior around the apartment complex and on the campus buses. Her opinion of them was that they were criminals who did not belong on a college campus. Has everyone forgotten that several players were failing multiple courses when KS was let go and Dakich was trying to determine who should stay and who should go.

Kelvin Sampson is a terrific basketball coach. But if you believe in any way in the idea that college basketball should be played by true college students ( and many here obviously don't share that value) then it would be impossible to respect and defend a guy like Kelvin Sampson. He doesn't belong in the college game. Sadly, there are a lot of coaches like that. I think it would be pretty obvious what Bob Knight would think of his approach and ethics.

I'm squarely of the opinion that if universities and college basketball fans reach the point where they are ok with guys like KS running programs, then the whole idea of college athletics is unnecessary and should be converted to a corporate-sponsored enterprise like in Europe. What is the over-arching purpose of spending billions of taxpayer dollars on coaches and massive facilities for what is essentially a business only marginally related to the mission of a university ? We may already be past the point of no return but I hate the thought of just accepting that the concept of student-athlete is archaic. Personally, if a choice must be made, I would like to see the whole of the NCAA adopt the Div. III model and let the corporate world run minor leagues for those who see college basketball (and football and baseball) as a nothing more than a stepping stone to the pros.

We don't have to root for IU or Purdue. We can send our young people there to get a true education and be fans of the "Eli Lilly Fighting Syringes" or the "Cook Stents", or the "Subaru Wheelers". Redirect the money that goes to fund massive coaching salaries, massive stadiums, and massive athletic departments into cutting tuition and housing costs and paying for professors and true academic research.

If college isn't an essential part of college athletics, then college athletics is pointless.
 

Coach Geez

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I have a close friend who taught Bassett in high school at Terre Haute. He was plenty of trouble. Holman also had hs transcript issues, I seem to remember a story about his relationship with a guidance counselor that was the source of a lot of speculation regarding grades.

People seem to forget that Sampson had a 0% graduation rate at OU. Let that sink in - not a single kid who played for him earned a degree. When he was hired at IU his response to that was that he had to recruit those kinds of kids to be successful at a non-bball school and state (jucos who were non-qualifiers out of hs, kids with low SAT scores, kids with sketchy pasts) . He swore that he would not need to take those kinds of kids at IU because of such a rich basketball heritage. Yet those are exactly the kinds of kids he immediately set out to bring in here. KS wasn't just a guy who made improper phone calls like hundreds of other coaches. He was a liar at heart - someone who had no contrition or remorse for past transgressions and who had no intention of changing. He was just concerned about not getting caught.

That was the same approach he took with player conduct and academics. He was interested in keeping players eligible and their character/legal problems covered up. My daughter was a student at IU at the time, living at Varsity Villas. Several bball players lived there as well. My daughter talked to me about their behavior around the apartment complex and on the campus buses. Her opinion of them was that they were criminals who did not belong on a college campus.

Kelvin Sampson is a terrific basketball coach. But if you believe in any way in the idea that college basketball should be played by true college students ( and many here obviously don't share that value) then it would be impossible to respect and defend a guy like Kelvin Sampson. He doesn't belong in the college game. Sadly, there are a lot of coaches like that. I think it would be pretty obvious what Bob Knight would think of his approach and ethics.

I'm squarely of the opinion that if universities and college basketball fans reach the point where they are ok with guys like KS running programs, then the whole idea of college athletics is unnecessary and should be converted to a corporate-sponsored enterprise like in Europe. What is the over-arching purpose of spending billions of taxpayer dollars on coaches and massive facilities for what is essentially a business only marginally related to the mission of a university ? We may already be past the point of no return but I hate the thought of just accepting that the concept of student-athlete is archaic. Personally, if a choice must be made, I would like to see the whole of the NCAA adopt the Div. III model and let the corporate world run minor leagues for those who see college basketball (and football and baseball) as a nothing more than a stepping stone to the pros.

We don't have to root for IU or Purdue. We can send our young people there to get a true education and be fans of the "Eli Lilly Fighting Syringes" or the "Cook Stents", or the "Subaru Wheelers". Redirect the money that goes to fund massive coaching salaries, massive stadiums, and massive athletic departments into cutting tuition and housing costs and paying for professors and true academic research.

If college isn't an essential part of college athletics, then college athletics is pointless.
All of this! I cringe when people associate Sampson with "just making a few extra phone calls". That aspect didn't bother me as it was minor in nature, although it was disheartening to see him blatantly disregard the rules while already on probation. It was the culture he was creating with no end in sight. There was no accountability in controlling KS while at IU. It was a free for all and he was turning the basketball program into a circus. I have no doubt in my mind that KS would have turned Indiana into a consistent winner as evidence by his ability to coach basketball, but not at the cost it was going to bear. I simply could not get behind that brand of basketball.
 

Courtsensetwo

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All of this! I cringe when people associate Sampson with "just making a few extra phone calls". That aspect didn't bother me as it was minor in nature, although it was disheartening to see him blatantly disregard the rules while already on probation. It was the culture he was creating with no end in sight. There was no accountability in controlling KS while at IU. It was a free for all and he was turning the basketball program into a circus. I have no doubt in my mind that KS would have turned Indiana into a consistent winner as evidence by his ability to coach basketball, but not at the cost it was going to bear. I simply could not get behind that brand of basketball.
It is one thing to recruit troubled kids and give them another chance. It is an entirely different thing to then not hold them accountable for behaviour and academics.

Sampson and his staff did wrong by IU and wrong by those kids.
 

Jssanto

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I think I would just swap Davis and Archie. Davis left DJ White and some good players that Sampson could work with and there was no rebuild. Archie also left a 5 star kid in the middle and some decent talent with help coming with Parker Stewart. The portal and Woodson has made the most of it and improved IU’s talent and filled the holes, though. Crean and Sampson left IU very little to nothing, especially Sampson.

Remember. this was about what was left for the next guy, not the success the guy had before he was fired.
Good reminder.
 
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oldcougar77

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Not surprising given that you two and IUScott were the main leaders and protectors of the Tom Crean shrine. 9 years was a long time.
False - but whatever narrative makes you feel superior you can keep on spreading (ad nauseam). Feel free to go back and look for all those alleged posts of me supporting Tom Crean. You are like like a circulating pump in a tiny septic tank. You just keep looping the same shit.
 

Champs1976

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You’re arguing that 75 isn’t really speeding because others are going 85 or 90. I think that’s always been the wrong way to look at it.
I'm not disagreeing with your premise, but realistically can a rule or law for that matter really be a law if it is not enforced consistently and there is no penalty for breaking it? For example, if people are not prosecuted for destruction and theft during a riot, is there any penalty at all for destructive behavior? As an example, the city of Chicago has some of the most restrictive gun laws in the nation and yet gun violence in Chicago is monumental. The reason, no one, literally no one, goes to jail for the unlawful possession of firearms - hence out of control gang warfare and at least 20+ shootings every weekend.

College basketball is rife with recruiting offenses and/or academic work arounds. The LSU coach was caught on tape offering to pay players. Will Wade is still employed and no meaningful penalties. The surreptitious paying of players has also gotten KU and Arizona in trouble. While Sean Miller got canned, Bill Self got a contract extension. NC under Roy Williams never required kids to really go to class or pass real college level classes. It is hard for me to imagine that all of the five stars recruited at Duke can really cut it in the classroom.

IU was holier than thou in its treatment of Sampson (not that I ever liked him or thought he was right for IU) and the program technically suffered the equivalent of the death penalty. That's the reality.
 

Coach Geez

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I'm not disagreeing with your premise, but realistically can a rule or law for that matter really be a law if it is not enforced consistently and there is no penalty for breaking it? For example, if people are not prosecuted for destruction and theft during a riot, is there any penalty at all for destructive behavior? As an example, the city of Chicago has some of the most restrictive gun laws in the nation and yet gun violence in Chicago is monumental. The reason, no one, literally no one, goes to jail for the unlawful possession of firearms - hence out of control gang warfare and at least 20+ shootings every weekend.
Do you tolerate theft and property damage even if violators aren't prosecuted? Does it make it right? Same rule applies here.
 

Bligedy

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Dan Dakich said working for Calvin was easier than with Coach Knight. Calvin handled losing a lot better than Knight did. Yet Dakich would not want him back at IU. He said there was a ton of stuff that showed he was not right for IU. Now at Houston he has found a home. They had Guy Lewis there for years.

Sampson and the idiots that hired him brought NCAA Sanctions to IU. Bleep every one of those people.