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Today I was listening to some of Obama’s old speeches…

How easy it must be to live in the binary world of “Joe Worker” on the one hand and “banksters and billionaires” on the other.

Why exactly was Joe Worker taking out mortgage loans they didn’t have a prayer of being able to pay back? Does personal responsibility ever factor into your work view for a second or is it all Wall St. is evil all the time?

He's a rare breed of blaming everyone else and supporting anarchy... without using normal grammar and sentence structure.
 
What a joy it would be to have a capable, respectful, intelligent president again. I never voted for the man and I never would. But he made you feel that this American experiment was such a just and worthwhile ideal.

I don’t know that DeSantis can deliver that, though I like him. He is combative by nature it seems. Trump and Biden are a lost cause. Where do we go from here for leadership?

Also, I'll leave this here. Despite some really shitty years, we are still in reasonably good shape compared to many places in the world, including other so-called global powers.

OC_GlobalHappiness_Main.jpg
 
Also, I'll leave this here. Despite some really shitty years, we are still in reasonably good shape compared to many places in the world, including other so-called global powers.

OC_GlobalHappiness_Main.jpg
Ah most of us are lucky as hell. Eating a big fatty burger with games on multiple TVs and 70 degree weather is fantastic. Bitching about worthless politicians is a luxury
 
My favorite Obama speech was the one he delivered after the Tucson Gabby Giffords shooting. I thought that finally we can come together and end political hatred. It took about 2 weeks before we learned that was all bullshit as Obama lit into the Wisconsin Republicans about reforms. It was at that time I said to myself, “never again!”
Thought the Tuscon eulogy for Gifford and others was pretty good. Plenty of similarities with the Charleston eulogy which is one of my favorites.

Research in the 2011 Wisconsin state reforms under Governor Scott Walker reminded me of how what seemed so important gets lost in my memory as time goes on. Initial reaction came from huge crowds of state employee union organized protests of upwards of 20,000.

Obama and Walker did collide in 2015 when Walker put his hat into the ring as a GOP presidential candidate, and Obama visited Wisconsin..

Interestingly upon giving up his presidential bid according to this link, Walker said debate among Republicans had shifted to personal attacks and away from the basic conservative principles of limited government and a strong military, which he urged the party to put front and center in the GOP presidential race. So it wasn't just Obama who clashed with Walker and detracted attention from his reforms.
 
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This is a huge part of the problem IMO. I never liked Obama, even though I acknowledge he was a very good speaker, to the OP's point. While that makes most Americans feel good, the lack of substance or rationale for decisions irks me.

But, realistically, you could have an incredibly intelligent politician that listens to advisors, compromises and collaborates across political parties, etc. and if he isn't a great outward speaker, it makes it difficult to garner support.

That being said, Biden certainly isn't a great public speaker and we just elected him. If there is any competition going forward, it probably makes it more unlikely, but it is possible.
Obama was a great speaker, and that can be a part of leadership. But he never really figured out how to use it. Clinton connected with people and I think had more success. But again, he loved nuance. Trump could connect to his following, but he waited to see where his people wanted him to go.

Biden ran correctly, I did not want him to win the primary but running as a uniter is in my mind the best solution for either party. He ran as you suggested. But reality creates a different problem, neither side really wants to compromise. Biden doesn't know how to get past that.

I don't know anyone knows. When congresses first priority is political it is going to be hard for much to get done.

Lincoln was shy and awkward, we would never elect him today. Of course him being dead is much of that reason, but his shy and awkward manner is part of it.
 
Obama was a great speaker, and that can be a part of leadership. But he never really figured out how to use it. Clinton connected with people and I think had more success. But again, he loved nuance. Trump could connect to his following, but he waited to see where his people wanted him to go.

Biden ran correctly, I did not want him to win the primary but running as a uniter is in my mind the best solution for either party. He ran as you suggested. But reality creates a different problem, neither side really wants to compromise. Biden doesn't know how to get past that.

I don't know anyone knows. When congresses first priority is political it is going to be hard for much to get done.

Lincoln was shy and awkward, we would never elect him today. Of course him being dead is much of that reason, but his shy and awkward manner is part of it.
Agreed on all fronts. That said what we're dealing with now is a first impression given the insane proliferation of social media and entertainment news. It's going to take a special person to truly unite going forward. I love Clinton but can't imagine him going through his shit in today's age of insanity
 
Agreed on all fronts. That said what we're dealing with now is a first impression given the insane proliferation of social media and entertainment news. It's going to take a special person to truly unite going forward. I love Clinton but can't imagine him going through his shit in today's age of insanity

It is the fault of the squishy middle, if we rejected rabble rousers there wouldn't be rabble rousers winning nominations.
 
It is the fault of the squishy middle, if we rejected rabble rousers there wouldn't be rabble rousers winning nominations.
It’s the abortion debate more than anything else. That’s what unites the evangelicals so fiercely for example. If Democrats could allow it to be the social issue it is then it would never have traction in politics. But now, Democrats have to make it a litmus test. Brain dead is as brain dead does. Democrats have gone from a dominant House in the 70s to a 3-6 minority in Supreme Court now. With a strong chance of Roe v. Wade getting overturned.
 
Ah most of us are lucky as hell. Eating a big fatty burger with games on multiple TVs and 70 degree weather is fantastic. Bitching about worthless politicians is a luxury
Coulda said the same about the Roman Empire in teh 3rd century AD. Didn't end well for them.
 
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Obama,

when the criminal banksters knowingly totally wrecked the financial system for personal gain through absolute fraud, lying, cheating, stealing, etc, not only did he not punish any of the criminal mob, but he stole over a trillion of the citizenry's money from the Fed to cover all their gambling losses 100 cents on the dollar.

then once he and the banksters realized how unbelievably easy it was to rob Ft Knox after all, he took trillions more of the citizenry's money and gave literally all of that to the banksters and billionaires and investor class, and not so much as one cent to Joe Worker.

then he stood by and gave the banksters a polite golf clap and a "well done, good job", when the banksters then proceed to foreclose on all the homeowners put out of their jobs by the bankster caused collapse, after the banksters had promised not to do so, as a condition of their trillion dollar bail out of their SELF IMPOSED gambling losses.

then he gave the banksters and billionaires and the investor class trillions more just for good measure, while continuing to give Joe Worker exactly zero, and continued to piss directly in their face every chance he got.

How easy it must be to live in the binary world of “Joe Worker” on the one hand and “banksters and billionaires” on the other.

Why exactly was Joe Worker taking out mortgage loans they didn’t have a prayer of being able to pay back? Does personal responsibility ever factor into your work view for a second or is it all Wall St. is evil all the time?


Joe Worker was fine until the adjustable rates got adjusted.

and the Joe Workers of the country trust their real estate agents and mortgage brokers to not mislead them on things the RE agents and mort brokers are experts on, while those things aren't really Joe's expertise, thus why he trusted those he assumed were counseling him honestly.

and Joe Workers loans were all collateralized by the homes they were on, and little of the 2008 financial meltdown came from those loans.

but then you, Jamie, Lucy, and McM already knew that, or should have before ever chiming in..


but strange you didn't ask why the banksters themselves made bets they KNEW would be losers, with NO collateral on them, that the nation's biggest banks and insurance giants themselves couldn't cover, and would literally bankrupt the nation's biggest banks and insurance giants.

in fact, for every $50 grand in collateralized home loans, the banksters and big insurance bet $1 mil in literally casino bets with zero collateral, so literally $4 mil of the banks' and insurance company's money was bet on every $200,000 home, and only Joe Workers $200,000 home loan had any collateral backing.

and the banksters were so beyond belief corrupt, that they were shorting the very mortgages they were selling to pension funds and Joe Investors, assuring the pension fund managers and investors the mortgages were A1 investments, when they flat knew for fact the mortgage funds were bad and would go to zero, at the same time they were conning the pension fund managers into buying them.

and for deliberately cheating and cleaning out the nation's pension funds and bankrupting the nation's big investment banks, Obama gave them all millions and tens of millions of the citizenry's money as bonuses, on top of paying off their trillion in gambling losses 100 cents on the dollar, instead of throwing them in prison and confiscating all their assets to cover their fines, as he would have done to any common crook, and should have done to the criminal banksters.

and he didn't give so much as one cent in help to Joe Worker, who's house he just let be foreclosed on by the banksters who promised not to do so as a condition of their trillion in bailouts, and millions and 10s of millions EACH in gifts from the very citizenry they already stole from, as bonuses.

but you, Jamie, Lucy, and McM, aren't bothered at all by that i see.
 
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Reaching across the aisle, I certainly disagree with him on everything but Ben Sasse does seem very bright.

Unfortunately appearing smart is a curse to too many Americans, hence why Cruz works hard to sound unengaged in facts. He is smart enough to know Americans will not vote for the smartest guy in the room. But the fact he refuses to try to change that discounts him for me as a lack of courage.
I think there are a multitude of data to confirm that Ted Cruz is a complete power-hungry coward. The data include the following:
1-deferential towards Trump despite Trump calling Cruz’s wife “ugly”
2-Ran from ice storm in Cancun
3-begged back on to Tucker Carlson show in an attempt to explain away his labeling the January 6 uprising as “terrorist”
4-fellates on Trump after Trump suggested Cruz’s father had played a role in assassination of JFK
 
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I do not disagree with the assessment of Trump or Biden. We have chosen dullards, that is on us.

When virus experts speak, I want a president who can follow along. When Ukraine and Russian briefings arrive on their desk, I want a president who 1) will read them and 2) can read them.

I love policy wonks. Jeb! May have been on the wrong side of issues for me, but he loved this stuff. He wanted in the details. Clinton was that way. People who actually want to and do talk to various experts and synthesize that information and reach a decision not based on the last person they spoke to nor what Tucker or Maddow tells them.

And it would be great if they also didn't base everything off of polls. Correct decisions are very seldom based on what a majority of your party believes.

If the American people cared about politics we never would have had Trump nor Biden. But Americans do not want to be, and do not like, wonks.
Love how the Dems always want to shove Jeb, Kasich, Sasse, Mitt & Liz down out throats.....where is the love for that maverick, Joe Manchin?
 
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Desantis is doing what you have to do to be a Republican nominee. I don’t think he’s actually what his public persona has been.

He’s Yale/Harvard/Navy educated. He’s not a dolt.
 
Love how the Dems always want to shove Jeb, Kasich, Sasse, Mitt & Liz down out throats.....where is the love for that maverick, Joe Manchin?
Mention him all you want, I don't think you will find me being critical of Manchin anywhere other than I wish he would be more clear on what he wants and doesn't want. Manchin is trying to hold together a center that has been obliterated.

I voted for Lugar over Democrats because I felt I could trust him even though I didn't often agree with him. I like leaders who are smart and who place America over party and group think. There ain't many of them left.
 
Mention him all you want, I don't think you will find me being critical of Manchin anywhere other than I wish he would be more clear on what he wants and doesn't want. Manchin is trying to hold together a center that has been obliterated.

I voted for Lugar over Democrats because I felt I could trust him even though I didn't often agree with him. I like leaders who are smart and who place America over party and group think. There ain't many of them left.
National Primary! I’ll shout it until I die. It would get rid of the crazies.
 
Ah most of us are lucky as hell. Eating a big fatty burger with games on multiple TVs and 70 degree weather is fantastic. Bitching about worthless politicians is a luxury
Who gets 70 degree weather?
 
people pay too much attention to what politicians say, and not what they do.

as for Obama, people assume because he is half black, and talked the talk when campaigning, that he was therefore economically a liberal.

but when he was prez, he couldn't have governed anymore far right wing than he did.

just as with Bill Clinton, who total idiots on both sides also think was a liberal, who also couldn't have governed any more far right economically than he did.

and the US total idiocracy still don't grasp that being social liberal or conservative, has exactly zero to do with being economically liberal or conservative.

anyone who thinks Clinton or Obama had an economic liberal/progeressive bone in their body, obviously slept through both of their terms.
You swung and missed this time.

One cannot be 'socially liberal' and fiscally conservative.

A fiscal conservative would never fund the transfer of wealth schemes 'social liberals' live for...
 
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Obama was a great speaker, and that can be a part of leadership. But he never really figured out how to use it. Clinton connected with people and I think had more success. But again, he loved nuance. Trump could connect to his following, but he waited to see where his people wanted him to go.

Biden ran correctly, I did not want him to win the primary but running as a uniter is in my mind the best solution for either party. He ran as you suggested. But reality creates a different problem, neither side really wants to compromise. Biden doesn't know how to get past that.

I don't know anyone knows. When congresses first priority is political it is going to be hard for much to get done.

Lincoln was shy and awkward, we would never elect him today. Of course him being dead is much of that reason, but his shy and awkward manner is part of it.
The best path to uniting the common sense middle may be uniting blue-collar workers. Easier said than done.

Right-to-work policies successfully neutered unions and drove a wedge between blue collars on the left and right. Trump was quick to snatch up those on the right, but they probably have more in common with each other than with the extremes on either side.

The key idea is that a united middle could safely focus on economic solutions and side burner if not back burner social issues. Depending on which way this coalition of the middle leaned, the corresponding extremes would have to vote along or not vote at all.

Which way it would go is a question. The middle right seems deeply entrenched in Trumpism. The middle left seems more likely to come up with workable economic solutions, not being beholden to the rich.
 
The best path to uniting the common sense middle may uniting be blue-collar workers. Easier said than done.

Right-to-work policies successfully neutered unions and drove a wedge between blue collars on the left and right. Trump was quick to snatch up those on the right, but they probably have more in common with each other than with the extremists on either side.

The key idea is that a united middle could safely focus on economic solutions and side burner if not back burner social issues. Depending on which way this coalition of the middle leaned, the corresponding extremes would have to vote along or not vote at all.

which way would go here’s a question. The middle right seems deeply entrenched in Trumpism. The middle left seems more likely to come up with workable economic solutions not being beholden to the rich.

A book I read had an interesting idea. Some countries in Europe do not offer unemployment per se, it is all handled through unions. If you want unemployment insurance you must belong to a union. Conservatives should love it, it gets the government out of unemployment. Liberals should love it, it would greatly increase union membership and thus power. It sounds like a great win-win to me.
 
A book I read had an interesting idea. Some countries in Europe do not offer unemployment per se, it is all handled through unions. If you want unemployment insurance you must belong to a union. Conservatives should love it, it gets the government out of unemployment. Liberals should love it, it would greatly increase union membership and thus power. It sounds like a great win-win to me.
Interesting. That seemingly gives more power to the union mgt which means bigger union dues.

IANAhistorian but it seems the union movement was directed at giving more power to workers in a factory-based capitalist economy. Now a lot of those factories have gone abroad and many of those workers have become entrepreneurs. The union model seems to have limits in representation and applicability.

Maybe a better solution is not uniting workers in a union but in a political/economic party. Then the question becomes how to unite the economic interests of blue-collar workers and blue-collar entrepreneurs?
 
Another factor driving blue-collar workers to Trump was competition from immigrants. For @crazed_hoosier2 whether to hire an American or a Latino immigrant was a business decision. Ironically in hiring the cheaper Latinos crazed not only increased his profits but also acquired the votes of the Americans to his extreme conservative party as a Trump snake oil bonus.
 
Obama was a great speaker, and that can be a part of leadership. But he never really figured out how to use it. Clinton connected with people and I think had more success. But again, he loved nuance. Trump could connect to his following, but he waited to see where his people wanted him to go.

Biden ran correctly, I did not want him to win the primary but running as a uniter is in my mind the best solution for either party. He ran as you suggested. But reality creates a different problem, neither side really wants to compromise. Biden doesn't know how to get past that.

I don't know anyone knows. When congresses first priority is political it is going to be hard for much to get done.

Lincoln was shy and awkward, we would never elect him today. Of course him being dead is much of that reason, but his shy and awkward manner is part of it.
Biden never ran as anything. He hid in his basement. The 'uniter' label nonsense was bs and everyone knew it.
 
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Another factor driving blue-collar workers to Trump was competition from immigrants. For @crazed_hoosier2 whether to hire an American or a Latino immigrant was a business decision. Ironically in hiring the cheaper Latinos crazed not only increased his profits but also acquired the votes of the Americans to his extreme conservative party as a Trump snake oil bonus.
Finish the 1st sentence Lefty....."because unlimited immigration of unskilled workers drives blue collar wages down".
 
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Biden never ran as anything. He hid in his basement. The 'uniter' label nonsense was bs and everyone knew it.

Yea, much more responsible to be throwing super spreader events in the middle of a pandemic ;)
 
The best path to uniting the common sense middle may be uniting blue-collar workers. Easier said than done.

Right-to-work policies successfully neutered unions and drove a wedge between blue collars on the left and right. Trump was quick to snatch up those on the right, but they probably have more in common with each other than with the extremes on either side.

The key idea is that a united middle could safely focus on economic solutions and side burner if not back burner social issues. Depending on which way this coalition of the middle leaned, the corresponding extremes would have to vote along or not vote at all.

Which way it would go is a question. The middle right seems deeply entrenched in Trumpism. The middle left seems more likely to come up with workable economic solutions, not being beholden to the rich.
clueless
 
Finish the 1st sentence Lefty....."because unlimited immigration of unskilled workers drives blue collar wages down".
Who causes that? In 2018 there were massive raids at plants in Mississippi. I think 680 or so were caught, many deported. A couple of managers were indicted. But to date, the firms that hired those people have faced no fines. For all his protectionist rhetoric, even Trump couldn't bring himself to attack the root of the problem. If companies won't hire undocumented workers, they won't be taking jobs.
 
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Who causes that? In 2018 there were massive raids at plants in Mississippi. I think 680 or so were caught, many deported. A couple of managers were indicted. But to date, the firms that hired those people have faced no fines. For all his protectionist rhetoric, even Trump couldn't bring himself to attack the root of the problem. If companies won't hire undocumented workers, they won't be taking jobs.
Trump hired undocumented workers so he couldn't do that.
 
Trump hired undocumented workers so he couldn't do that.
He did, but I'm not meaning to pick on Trump on this. He ran as far right as anyone on this issue and couldn't/didn't go after business. We need business to fear what happens if they hire undocumented workers and we do that through massive fines. If a business knows that they may well be put out on the sidewalk, they will check the documentation more carefully.

It doesn't solve other issues, not the least of which is the migrant worker issue. Georgia cracked down on that, then had produce rotting in the fields so changed the law to have prisoners work. That doesn't drive up wages.


For some reason Americans want to crack heads of undocumented workers but refuse to hold business accountable at all.
 
Who causes that? In 2018 there were massive raids at plants in Mississippi. I think 680 or so were caught, many deported. A couple of managers were indicted. But to date, the firms that hired those people have faced no fines. For all his protectionist rhetoric, even Trump couldn't bring himself to attack the root of the problem. If companies won't hire undocumented workers, they won't be taking jobs.
My view is that it is the job of the federal government to ensure, to the best of its ability, that the people who are in this country have a right to be in this country. That and defense of the country are probably their #1 & #2 most important jobs. It should be the right of any employer to hire anyone they want to hire. The same for people who want to hire maids and roofers. They should not, as free individuals, be expected to do the job the federal government refuses to do.
 
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My view is that it is the job of the federal government to ensure, to the best of its ability, that the people who are in this country have a right to be in this country. That and defense of the country are probably their #1 & #2 most important jobs. It should be the right of any employer to hire anyone they want to hire. The same for people who want to hire maids and roofers. They should not, as free individuals, be expected to do the job the federal government refuses to do.

You will never keep people out that way. East Germans got across the Berlin Wall, with machine guns having shoot to kill orders. If companies hire undocumented, undocumented WILL get in and there isn't a damn thing we can do about it. If machine guns can't stop people (and about 100,000 escaped after that wall was built), I don't know what we can do. Maybe sow landmines all along our borders?
 
Another factor driving blue-collar workers to Trump was competition from immigrants. For @crazed_hoosier2 whether to hire an American or a Latino immigrant was a business decision. Ironically in hiring the cheaper Latinos crazed not only increased his profits but also acquired the votes of the Americans to his extreme conservative party as a Trump snake oil bonus.
How in the hell did I get dragged into this? And, FTR, the vast majority of people I hire come on referral from a trade union. As such, their immigration status must be in order and they earn union scale regardless.

Anyway, carry on. But leave me out of this.
 
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Reaching across the aisle, I certainly disagree with him on everything but Ben Sasse does seem very bright.

Unfortunately appearing smart is a curse to too many Americans, hence why Cruz works hard to sound unengaged in facts. He is smart enough to know Americans will not vote for the smartest guy in the room. But the fact he refuses to try to change that discounts him for me as a lack of courage.
Cruz can't even decide what haircut and beard makes him look smart/stupid depending on what his goal is on a given day. He keeps flipflopping on his hair.

Only his intentional stupidity remains the hallmark of his image strategy.
 
He's a rare breed of blaming everyone else and supporting anarchy... without using normal grammar and sentence structure.
Huh?

You referred to "a rare breed of blaming everyone else."

Seriously? That's all I hear every day I leave the TV on a news channel. Doesn't matter which channel. How could you possibly think that is rare?
 
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Ah most of us are lucky as hell. Eating a big fatty burger with games on multiple TVs and 70 degree weather is fantastic. Bitching about worthless politicians is a luxury
I wish the politicans would just compromise and get it over with.

Everybody knows they don't really care, and few of their loudest-announced decisions make any difference whatsoever.

Many of the Congress members have no right to stand on principle, because they aren't smart or knowledgeable enough to recognize any principles as to what's good for the country.
 
A book I read had an interesting idea. Some countries in Europe do not offer unemployment per se, it is. all handled through unions. If you want unemployment insurance you must belong to a union. Conservatives should love it, it gets the government out of unemployment. Liberals should love it, it would greatly increase union membership and thus power. It sounds like a great win-win to me.
Who funds the unemployment payments? If it's the unions, fine. If it's the government, I don't want a bunch of union goomba's handling taxpayer money.
 
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