Thoughts and prayers to the victims of yet another school massacre.
Thoughts and prayers thread
- Thread starter iu_a_att
- Start date
It’s really to early to comment.
There is widespread consensus, of course, on myriad things we might do. But we must not try to prevent the next massacre until we have fully forgotten the last. To do otherwise would be divisive.
Perhaps, but I'll do it anyway.
17 people were killed in a shooting today. On average, each day in this country, 30 people are victims of homicide by gun. Each and every day, 3 of them will be killed by a police officer. Another 60 each day will use a gun to take their own lives. Another 90 will be injured by a gun.
Each day.
School shootings are sad, but they are a tiny drop in the bucket when it comes to gun deaths in America.
School shootings are particularly horrific...it is a hardwired primate thing to be particularly disturbed by the murder of children. That statistics by themselves might not be enough to move us to action is somewhat understandable. That the combination of statistics with horrific mass murder events of children is not enough is what really deserves our thoughts and prayers. We should think and pray about what stops us from responding to this situation with sensible policies we almost all already agree upon.
What sensible policies we almost all already agree upon? I for one doubt there is very much at all we can do to stop school shootings (or any spree killings) from a policy standpoint.
see my post above with the link...the idea that we couldn't stop school shootings seems absurd...that is, unless you believe that Americans are somehow different people than people elsewhere in the world or different than we were 40 years ago. I do agree that there is not very much we can do to stop spree killings in our current political environment in which our politics on gun issues has been effectively captured by the NRA.
I support common sense gun control, including the three proposals polled by Gallup. I fail to see how they would prevent most - or any - school shootings.
It barely even registers nowadays. Desensitising to it is the only coping mechanism.
For someone who lives abroad, fresh eyes/ears, and doesn't have to think about it on a regular basis (no kids, only cats) its just plan nuts. Nowhere else in the world does this happen.
You can send a man to the moon and yet...
For someone who lives abroad, fresh eyes/ears, and doesn't have to think about it on a regular basis (no kids, only cats) its just plan nuts. Nowhere else in the world does this happen.
You can send a man to the moon and yet...
I think the common sense gun control proposals would impact the statistics you cite. More aggressive gun control policies as well as other policies (e.g., mental health policies) may be needed to really halt school shootings. But other countries don't have these widespread school shootings like we do. So there must be policies we can pursue that will reduce the frequency. Fatalism because of our hyper-polarized political environment is warranted. Fatalism about policy solutions is not.
Perhaps. I hope we can find a solution, but even your explanation strengthens my original point, which is that using school shootings to promote gun control policies is dumb.
Sorry, I just read your link and these are the proposals we agree upon:
- mandatory background checks
- waiting periods and gun registration, or checks and waiting periods, but not registration
I have no problem with mandatory background checks and waiting periods. Not much with registration either. However, those wouldn't stop these shootings.
To combine two threads together, background checks will be about as effective at stopping school shootings as hard 20-week cutoffs are at stopping abortions.
But I'm not one that wants to stop abortions - just late-term abortions. Of course, I'd be happy to see all abortions reduced, just as I'd like to see shootings reduced.
Was that your point? I thought your point was that the number of fatalities from school shootings is small in comparison to the number of gun injuries more broadly. Being fatalistic about preventing school shootings is absurd.
Making abortion illegal would be more effective than a 20-week cutoff. Strictly enforcing laws against abortion would make it even more rare. Analogously, getting rid of easy availability of firearms will reduce shootings. Making firearms really hard to get will have more dramatic effects. Got a constitutional problem with those proposals?..No problem...get different judges and the problems disappear. Policy matters a lot.
You propose getting judges that will ignore the constitution?
A
anon_mlxxvlbug9dpa
Guest
We don’t need new policies. We need a restating or repeal of the 2nd Amendment.
No, judges never ignore the constitution...you want to ban abortion you get judges who think the constitution allows banning abortion...you want to ban firearms you get judges who think the constitution allows banning firearms. The set of policies that have at one time or another passed constitutional muster is quite vast and contradictory.
I doubt it. His corner to fight is more guns, gasoline on the campfire from his idiotic point of view, but I am sure he is praying for lost life
Guns are our Moloch
by Garry Wills
by Garry Wills
Few crimes are more harshly forbidden in the Old Testament than sacrifice to the god Moloch (for which see Leviticus 18.21, 20.1-5). The sacrifice referred to was of living children consumed in the fires of offering to Moloch. Ever since then, worship of Moloch has been the sign of a deeply degraded culture. Ancient Romans justified the destruction of Carthage by noting that children were sacrificed to Moloch there. Milton represented Moloch as the first pagan god who joined Satan’s war on humankind:
First Moloch, horrid king, besmear’d with blood
Of human sacrifice, and parents’ tears,
Though for the noise of Drums and Timbrels loud
Their children’s cries unheard, that pass’d through fire
To his grim idol. (Paradise Lost 1.392-96)
Read again those lines, with recent images seared into our brains—“besmeared with blood” and “parents’ tears.” They give the real meaning of what happened at Sandy Hook Elementary School Friday morning. That horror cannot be blamed just on one unhinged person. It was the sacrifice we as a culture made, and continually make, to our demonic god.
First Moloch, horrid king, besmear’d with blood
Of human sacrifice, and parents’ tears,
Though for the noise of Drums and Timbrels loud
Their children’s cries unheard, that pass’d through fire
To his grim idol. (Paradise Lost 1.392-96)
Read again those lines, with recent images seared into our brains—“besmeared with blood” and “parents’ tears.” They give the real meaning of what happened at Sandy Hook Elementary School Friday morning. That horror cannot be blamed just on one unhinged person. It was the sacrifice we as a culture made, and continually make, to our demonic god.
Let’s treat guns like pills and cigarettes. The trial lawyers and civil justice system are just getting warmed up on taking the industrial pill pushers to task. If congress butts out, this will put a big dent in the opioid epidemic.
Litigation fixed the cigarette issue.
Litigation fixed ATV issues.
Litigation was on the verge of fixing the gun issue, until the GOP congress gave the gun industry immunity. We don’t need to screw with the second amendment. We don’t need more background checks. We need some effective lawyers and a repeal of gun industry immunity.
... and then we need to relinquish ownership of 300MM to 600MM firearms and 10 trillion rounds of ammunition from US citizens. Feasible?
Not until every single privately owned firearm is recouped and destroyed will the shooting stop. Of course, we'll have to remove all firearms from police service as well -- they could end up in the wrong hands. We'll also need to mitigate the potential for our more resourceful citizens to design and manufacture firearms; milling machines, multi-axis lathes, screw machines, and 3D printers will need heavy regulation. All gunsmithing literature will need scrubbed from hard copy and electronic circulation. A few million casing presses and lead foundaries will have to be confiscated as well. Next we figure out how to prevent firearms being smuggled in from our southern and northern neighbors.
Is that all? I didn't realize it was so simple.
If I understand you correctly, I disagree.
We should legislate. We should remove any mfr'r immunity. We should consider holding gun owners (incl. parents) accountable for what happens with their weapons. We could expand background screens. We could ban some weapons. We could require that all weapons be registered and that all weapon transfers be documented and require background screens.
Legislative efforts likely wouldn't be enough. Other things would be helpful. For example, pushing the media to stop the massacre porn where they reveal scant info slowly (and often incorrectly) as stories develop over days instead of presenting the hard news. We can all value gun rights, but if your expression of that right is to proudly buy 65 guns, including assault rifles, you might be a loon and part of the problem. We should consider treating those folks accordingly instead of ceding ground to them as proud Americans. We could ask our leaders to stop contributing to the madness by talking just like those loons and otherwise doing nothing but pointing out how no single legislative activity would solve the problem and thus doing absolutely nothing (other than likely and actually loosening the gun laws).
There's more, but frankly I'm surprised there's so little outcry.
Even with repeal of the 2nd Amendment, I suspect most gun rights would still be protected by due process jurisprudence, but arguably dealt with on a more reasonable analysis.
I'm sorry, but I don't see how anything you said constitutes "disagreeing" with me.
Like I said, I'm not sure I followed you. But in the wake of every tragedy, there are endless explanations that this or that aspect of one previously suggested gun control initiative wouldn't have prevented the bad activity. In sum, there's a huge sweeping effort to explain that legislative efforts wouldn't be successful, would interfere with our God-given rights and shouldn't be attempted at all. Thus, inertia. I think we need to start moving forward and rejecting the naysayers outright. The naysayers, imo, are a significant part of the problem even if they studiously assemble reasonable-sounding disagreements. I don't want to accept conversations about the limits of legislation.
As I said above, I'm not arguing against the specific policies in question. I'm arguing against the idea they would prevent school shootings. Or really any shootings. You really want to make a dent in gun violence using gun control, you need to do what Ranger said and repeal the 2A.
How about combining guns and abortion, using guns for abortion? For example, Duterte urges his people to shoot rebel women in the vagina. Kill two birds with one stone, n'est-ce pas?
I don't think repeal of the 2A would change much of anything. I think a change in policy is what is needed if it has support. I think a change in policy is a growing consensus that what we've experienced is unacceptable and that the school shootings are the best example of that insanity. If politicians faced a backlash and had to distance themselves from "gun nuts" (they aggressively advocate for them today), maybe the tone in the country would change. I think it can start with policy.
So, eventually it will hit home with everyone. Today's shooting did with us. One of my girl's sister was shot. She is going to be fine physically, but I'm sure it will take a toll mentally. Six of my girls went to that high school, so I'm sure they will know some of the deceased. I know you may get tired of hearing about friends. But this is the fifth person I know that has been effected by gun violence in the last five years. So if I seem a little passionate about it, it's because I am. How can we not even attempt to tone this down? How can we not even have a discussion about both gun control and mental health? How can we discuss all the stupid things we do and not even have a conversation. Every country can do it but us. Children and teachers have a lot more to be scared about going to school than they do from a terrorist act. And that is just wrong. How many more children need to die?,
Fyi. It's the 18th school shooting just in 2018 (and we are only 6 weeks in) according to Everytown for Gun Safety, a non-profit group.
There have been almost 200 mass shootings (4+ shot or wounded) so far this year.
IMO news organisations have made a cynical (and dangerous) decision to give most of the attention to school shootings.
There have been almost 200 mass shootings (4+ shot or wounded) so far this year.
IMO news organisations have made a cynical (and dangerous) decision to give most of the attention to school shootings.
- Total Number of Incidents 6,490
- Number of Deaths 1,793
- Number of Injuries 3,094
- Number of Children (age 0-11)
Killed or Injured 69 - Number of Teens (age 12-17)
Killed or Injured 331 - Mass Shooting 29
- Officer Involved Incident
Officer Shot or Killed 38 - Officer Involved Incident
Subject-Suspect Shot or Killed 286 - Home Invasion 262
- Defensive Use 180
- Unintentional Shooting 214
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