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Thoughts a day later

IUNorth

Hall of Famer
Oct 25, 2002
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I went back and rewatched the game...Figuring/hoping that the 2nd half wasn't as bad as I was making it out to be in my Venting Spree last night.

In many ways it was worse. Looking at the tape, with less emotion, really opened my eyes up to just how lifeless we looked in the second half. Even with our great play in the first half, we didn't have the same body language. I'm halfway wondering if TJD isn't sick??! Cavanaugh? You know of any sicknesses running through the team? Serious question.

We did run some different things I wasn't giving Coach credit for last night...buuut we sure didn't do much extra to get TJD the ball most of the game. Maybe he wasn't feeling well, and Coach knew that? He's still good enough that if he says he can go, you play him. And if you're going to play him, you need to run things through him more when we need good shots. We always "need" good shots. But there were some critical moments last night where we NEEDED good looks. I watched the Warriors game last night, and Mark Jackson used a good term to describe one of Curry's biggest positive benefits. He said Steph Curry has Gravity to his game. He pulls defenders to him without having to do much of anything. I think TJD does that too, especially with the ball in his hands. So even if you aren't specifically posting him up. The ball needs to touch him when you're needing to get good looks. And there needs to be concerted efforts to capitalize on that "Gravity". Running plays for people right after he vacates spaces. Dribble handoffs out top with him (we do this). Screen and flashing involving him. There are tons of ways to exploit the attention he receives. We had too many possessions where the ball never even got on his side of the court.

I still stand by my concerns I posted about last night about Woodson's game management. I don't see how anyone could watch that game, after watching EMU, St Johns, Marshall, Syracuse, and Nebraska games...and not be worried about some stuff??!! And where else but this message board to come and vent and question things?

But as I posted after I had a couple hours to come to last night...This is game 9. The Woodson Era at IU hasn't been defined yet. There are a lot of good things happening. It appears there likely won't be an immediate turn around...like a Brad Underwood, or even a Juwan Howard, had at their schools. And that's disappointing. If any school has the resources to flip the script immediately in the B10, IU should be a top candidate for it. How many schools have the resources, connections, history, interest, to stroke 10 million dollar checks to make a coach not work here any more? I think that answer is there are ZERO other schools in the B10 that could and would do that. So there's a desire there, and there are resources there to make us great again. I hope Woodson is the man to do that. Bummed out it might take a few years. As its not unheard of for it to happen immediately other places.

Edit: Two horrible examples for coaching turnarounds? I've even had conversations about those two, and how it took them a year or two... Holtman, Cronin maybe... are better examples.
 
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It appears there likely won't be an immediate turn around...like a Brad Underwood, or even a Juwan Howard, had at their schools. And that's disappointing. If any school has the resources to flip the script immediately in the B10, IU should be a top candidate for it.
Brad Underwood went 14-18 and 12-21 in years 1 and 2 at Illinois. Howard inherited a program that won 30 games the previous two years with a big part of that nucleus returning. Woodson inherited an IU program that from top to bottom was pretty devoid of talent (few exceptions) that hadn't made the tournament in any of the previous 4 years. Still think there is a good chance of a tournament birth this year which likely puts IU on schedule. Backcourt next year should feature two 5* guards (Bates and Hood-Schifino) which should raise the level of play.
 
Agree. Recruiting is solid. Also - this staff includes Matta and Fife … Matta alone can help the coaching.

IU will be fine long-term. This roster has some stop-gap guys unfortunately.
 
Brad Underwood went 14-18 and 12-21 in years 1 and 2 at Illinois. Howard inherited a program that won 30 games the previous two years with a big part of that nucleus returning. Woodson inherited an IU program that from top to bottom was pretty devoid of talent (few exceptions) that hadn't made the tournament in any of the previous 4 years. Still think there is a good chance of a tournament birth this year which likely puts IU on schedule. Backcourt next year should feature two 5* guards (Bates and Hood-Schifino) which should raise the level of play.
Yeah...I edited it before I read your response...not sure why I had those two in mind for turnaround coaches? I know I've used them in the past couple years when I "stopped believing in Archie"...ha ha...as examples of guys that had successes in changing a program...why wasn't Archie doing it too? Howard did walk into a very successful program, but he completely changed it in most ways philosophy wise.
 
Brad Underwood went 14-18 and 12-21 in years 1 and 2 at Illinois. Howard inherited a program that won 30 games the previous two years with a big part of that nucleus returning. Woodson inherited an IU program that from top to bottom was pretty devoid of talent (few exceptions) that hadn't made the tournament in any of the previous 4 years. Still think there is a good chance of a tournament birth this year which likely puts IU on schedule. Backcourt next year should feature two 5* guards (Bates and Hood-Schifino) which should raise the level of play.
been thinking about the reality of your last sentence, and the problem I see (that it won't be a quick fix) is that JHS probably won't have TJD or Race to work with next year. So are we pinning our hopes for next year on the tx portal?
 
been thinking about the reality of your last sentence, and the problem I see (that it won't be a quick fix) is that JHS probably won't have TJD or Race to work with next year. So are we pinning our hopes for next year on the tx portal?
The way things are today, you don’t need a dominant big man. Just serviceable if the guards can be solid. The recruiting is showing the makeup of future teams will be guard heavy. Plus - the portal will land a decent enough big man.
 
On a strictly positive note, there was one overriding thing that impressed me last night and that was how focused and prepared we were to play the game. Regardless of the disastrous second half, I haven't seen an IU team play against a good team in a tough venue, and absolutely dominate in every faze, in a long, long time. That’s why I’m optimistic about the future. The coaching staff had them prepared and ready to play. I’m hopeful they’ll figure out the rest, even without our silly criticisms. 😉
 
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On a strictly positive note, there was one overriding thing that impressed me last night and that was how focused and prepared we were to play the game. Regardless of the disastrous second half, I haven't seen an IU team play against a good team in a tough venue, and absolutely dominate in every faze, in a long, long time. That’s why I’m optimistic about the future. The coaching staff had them prepared and ready to play. I’m hopeful they’ll figure out the rest, even without our silly criticisms. 😉
Agreed.

Guessing Woodson absolutely laid into the starters after the abysmal start against Syracuse and Nebraska and was a point of emphasis to not let it happen again. Same thing with turnovers. IU actually took care of the ball last night (for the duration of the game) against a really hard nosed team in a very tough venue to play.
 
been thinking about the reality of your last sentence, and the problem I see (that it won't be a quick fix) is that JHS probably won't have TJD or Race to work with next year. So are we pinning our hopes for next year on the tx portal?
Our hopes in the front court for next year are 100% pinned on the portal. That is why I want to make the tourney this year. We certainly have enough talent and we have six seniors and start five seniors. So we certainly are not that young. Next year we will be young. This is the year to make it happen imo.
 
Yeah...I edited it before I read your response...not sure why I had those two in mind for turnaround coaches? I know I've used them in the past couple years when I "stopped believing in Archie"...ha ha...as examples of guys that had successes in changing a program...why wasn't Archie doing it too? Howard did walk into a very successful program, but he completely changed it in most ways philosophy wise.
Well he better change it back since Beilien had them in the final four twice before he got there.
 
I went back and rewatched the game...Figuring/hoping that the 2nd half wasn't as bad as I was making it out to be in my Venting Spree last night.

In many ways it was worse. Looking at the tape, with less emotion, really opened my eyes up to just how lifeless we looked in the second half. Even with our great play in the first half, we didn't have the same body language. I'm halfway wondering if TJD isn't sick??! Cavanaugh? You know of any sicknesses running through the team? Serious question.

We did run some different things I wasn't giving Coach credit for last night...buuut we sure didn't do much extra to get TJD the ball most of the game. Maybe he wasn't feeling well, and Coach knew that? He's still good enough that if he says he can go, you play him. And if you're going to play him, you need to run things through him more when we need good shots. We always "need" good shots. But there were some critical moments last night where we NEEDED good looks. I watched the Warriors game last night, and Mark Jackson used a good term to describe one of Curry's biggest positive benefits. He said Steph Curry has Gravity to his game. He pulls defenders to him without having to do much of anything. I think TJD does that too, especially with the ball in his hands. So even if you aren't specifically posting him up. The ball needs to touch him when you're needing to get good looks. And there needs to be concerted efforts to capitalize on that "Gravity". Running plays for people right after he vacates spaces. Dribble handoffs out top with him (we do this). Screen and flashing involving him. There are tons of ways to exploit the attention he receives. We had too many possessions where the ball never even got on his side of the court.

I still stand by my concerns I posted about last night about Woodson's game management. I don't see how anyone could watch that game, after watching EMU, St Johns, Marshall, Syracuse, and Nebraska games...and not be worried about some stuff??!! And where else but this message board to come and vent and question things?

But as I posted after I had a couple hours to come to last night...This is game 9. The Woodson Era at IU hasn't been defined yet. There are a lot of good things happening. It appears there likely won't be an immediate turn around...like a Brad Underwood, or even a Juwan Howard, had at their schools. And that's disappointing. If any school has the resources to flip the script immediately in the B10, IU should be a top candidate for it. How many schools have the resources, connections, history, interest, to stroke 10 million dollar checks to make a coach not work here any more? I think that answer is there are ZERO other schools in the B10 that could and would do that. So there's a desire there, and there are resources there to make us great again. I hope Woodson is the man to do that. Bummed out it might take a few years. As its not unheard of for it to happen immediately other places.

Edit: Two horrible examples for coaching turnarounds? I've even had conversations about those two, and how it took them a year or two... Holtman, Cronin maybe... are better examples.
I just watched the last 12 minutes of the game. Didn’t see the game last night.
After the under 4 timeout:
X missed open shot from rt elbow. Trayce misses hook. Race missed one right at the rim. Stewart missed wide open 3. Trayce missed a free throw. X missed 2 after he missed the bunny that he got fouled on. X then misses front end.
The players were put in position to win.
I’m find it hard to blame Woodson.
I was expecting much worse from the comments I saw last night.
Still doesn’t take the sting away from losing one we should’ve won.
 
I went back and rewatched the game...Figuring/hoping that the 2nd half wasn't as bad as I was making it out to be in my Venting Spree last night.

In many ways it was worse. Looking at the tape, with less emotion, really opened my eyes up to just how lifeless we looked in the second half. Even with our great play in the first half, we didn't have the same body language. I'm halfway wondering if TJD isn't sick??! Cavanaugh? You know of any sicknesses running through the team? Serious question.

We did run some different things I wasn't giving Coach credit for last night...buuut we sure didn't do much extra to get TJD the ball most of the game. Maybe he wasn't feeling well, and Coach knew that? He's still good enough that if he says he can go, you play him. And if you're going to play him, you need to run things through him more when we need good shots. We always "need" good shots. But there were some critical moments last night where we NEEDED good looks. I watched the Warriors game last night, and Mark Jackson used a good term to describe one of Curry's biggest positive benefits. He said Steph Curry has Gravity to his game. He pulls defenders to him without having to do much of anything. I think TJD does that too, especially with the ball in his hands. So even if you aren't specifically posting him up. The ball needs to touch him when you're needing to get good looks. And there needs to be concerted efforts to capitalize on that "Gravity". Running plays for people right after he vacates spaces. Dribble handoffs out top with him (we do this). Screen and flashing involving him. There are tons of ways to exploit the attention he receives. We had too many possessions where the ball never even got on his side of the court.

I still stand by my concerns I posted about last night about Woodson's game management. I don't see how anyone could watch that game, after watching EMU, St Johns, Marshall, Syracuse, and Nebraska games...and not be worried about some stuff??!! And where else but this message board to come and vent and question things?

But as I posted after I had a couple hours to come to last night...This is game 9. The Woodson Era at IU hasn't been defined yet. There are a lot of good things happening. It appears there likely won't be an immediate turn around...like a Brad Underwood, or even a Juwan Howard, had at their schools. And that's disappointing. If any school has the resources to flip the script immediately in the B10, IU should be a top candidate for it. How many schools have the resources, connections, history, interest, to stroke 10 million dollar checks to make a coach not work here any more? I think that answer is there are ZERO other schools in the B10 that could and would do that. So there's a desire there, and there are resources there to make us great again. I hope Woodson is the man to do that. Bummed out it might take a few years. As its not unheard of for it to happen immediately other places.

Edit: Two horrible examples for coaching turnarounds? I've even had conversations about those two, and how it took them a year or two... Holtman, Cronin maybe... are better examples.
Good post and I agree. Was a horrible second half and we could (should) have been much better. I have watched Woodson for years and believe he is a very good coach. I truly believe this team will be better as the year progresses, baring injuries. I just feel like some people’s expectations for what this years team was going to look like out the gate was too high. We still have things to figure out and hopefully we do.
 
Lander needs the keys, period. Until they start starting our most talented player, nothing will happen. Lander and Bates just simply need to start NOW! Die by that decision, but the non-conference is for figuring that out and they should have played more then, not now. Obviously if we aren't even playing for any but to just hope to make the tourney. I'd rather have a shitty record and actually be dangerous in March, but they need the keys. TJD is not good enough to carry it
 
Last night was a reality check of where this program is really at. There was no way Woodson was going to come in, bring in some transfers, and beat Wisconsin by 20 on the road. The reality for the last 20 years is we get good talent, but there are no standards. I like Woodson a lot. I hope he can fix it.
 
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