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This is the Commander in Chief

I occasionally agree lefties, even some here. Don’t expect more than occasional. ;)
Aloha, you may have already addressed this in the past, but I assume John Kelly is very respected in the military community? I would imagine Trump attacking him again tonight won't help Trump's support within the military?

Commenting on someone like Kelly in terms of stamina seems off the rails.
 
Even Sully has had it with Trump. Blasting him on twitter.
 
You are stretching in your attempts to discredit multiple news sources. Most people wouldnt turn such a blind eye if they didnt support the person.

Trump says zillions of things i wish he wouldn’t say and in fact i disagree with. Biden stands for policies and supports special interests that are worse for the country than what Trump says. Not hard for me.
 
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The only explanation I can think of for Trump's attitude on this is a psychoanalytical one - one that I am no where near qualified to make. But it's almost as if Trump thinks of fallen heroes as examples of how he personally falls short of the perfection that he seems compelled to think of himself as attaining.

I think @iu-in-philly used to have a quote in his signature . . . something to the effect of this T.S. Eliot quote:

I've often thought that this was an explanation for folks' tinkering around with the world on a much smaller scale . . . but it seems to fit with Trump. Bigly.

Funny thing about that TS Eliot quote I used....it was supposed to be an admonition about the influence of political psychology on our beliefs and the law of unintended consequences. Trump, because he’s not truly “political” in any ideological/philosophical sense, would tend to fall outside the original intent of the quote’s inclusion in my profile.

He is a fascinating case in psychology, but more straight DSM vs the political variety. There’s no point in getting mired in diagnostic predictions, but I would suggest doing some research on Fred Trump if you want some insight on possible “explanations”. I found it to be illuminating...and also gave me a sincere degree of sympathy for those raised under his dominion.

Note: If you want some good material on the political psychology and the personal hero narrative of ideologues, read the works of Jonathan Haidt, particularly The Righteous Mind.
 
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If I had read the basis of this article 5 years ago, I’d be inclined to see it as more fiction than fact. But after the episodes with Admiral McRaven, General Mattis, General Kelly, General McChrystal, John McCain, Alexander Vindman and the Khan family, it’s not unreasonable to suggest the report flies somewhere north of “likely” and not exactly off-brand for POTUS.

I think we can reasonably separate the issues of “did this likely happen” vs “was this the proper way to publish the story”? If I’m a betting man, I’d have a decent $ on the gist of the story being true. I’m also concerned that a story this explosive may not have named sources yet....though that may change.

As someone who worked in GOP politics and was around the military both in professional and private circles, I can say that the basis of this article is not entirely shocking to me. There has been chatter like this for some time about Trump and his “non-standard” insights on military service. Does that make the article 100% true? Not necessarily. I will say that many of the guys listed above are deeply respected within the branches they represented.... and Trump’s puerile condemnation of them did not exactly go unnoticed within those service communities.
 
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Trump says zillions of things i wish he wouldn’t say and in fact i disagree with. Biden stands for policies and supports special interests that are worse for the country than what Trump says. Not hard for me.

He's undermining our democracy in plain sight.

He's following the authoritarian handbook to almost the letter.

1. Project over the top fake strength. 2. Appeal to a faction of voters who are angry and resentful. 3. Say you're the savior that's going to skip the BS and clean up the corrupt politicians that are working against you. 4. Demonize enemies. 5. Once in power attack the institutions that are in place to check your power. 6. Attack the free press, leading to a state press that only pushes what you want them to push. 7. Stack the courts with cronies. 7b. Reward loyalty over competency, neutering the institutions as you fill them incompetent, loyal yes men. 8. Punish those (jail, executions) that speak up against you as traitors (next step). 9. Continue to push savior conspiracies designed to scare those under your rule that only the authoritarian can keep the people safe from the boogieman. 10. Interfere with elections so you can say you won by the love of the people. Etc.

But his policies line up with you so it's all good man.

Just remember, everything he does sets a precedent. The beauty of our democracy is the peaceful transfer of power. The fact that we can have open discussions and fair elections that our leaders abide by is unique to the world.

It obvious that Trump is jealous of the power that other authoritarians have and gets frustrated with check and balances of the democracy. Why is the person he loathes the most happen to be Nancy Pelosi? Yeah I wonder why.

If he wins and goes forward your party is now Trumpicans. Hell his cronies have already hinted they want to change the symbol of the party from an elephant to a lion, in honor of Trump.

We could all be living under a Trump rule (where power is passed down to his family like in North Korea) or a radical militia could assassinate him in a coup d'etat and now we're living under a different authoritarian rule, one whose policies now don't line up with yours.

Democracies have died to authoritarian rule a zillion times in history, it can happen here. I would hope that we would be smart enough to recognize it and snuff it out early but....maybe I think too highly of our voting base.
 
He's undermining our democracy in plain sight.

He's following the authoritarian handbook to almost the letter.

1. Project over the top fake strength. 2. Appeal to a faction of voters who are angry and resentful. 3. Say you're the savior that's going to skip the BS and clean up the corrupt politicians that are working against you. 4. Demonize enemies. 5. Once in power attack the institutions that are in place to check your power. 6. Attack the free press, leading to a state press that only pushes what you want them to push. 7. Stack the courts with cronies. 7b. Reward loyalty over competency, neutering the institutions as you fill them incompetent, loyal yes men. 8. Punish those (jail, executions) that speak up against you as traitors (next step). 9. Continue to push savior conspiracies designed to scare those under your rule that only the authoritarian can keep the people safe from the boogieman. 10. Interfere with elections so you can say you won by the love of the people. Etc.

But his policies line up with you so it's all good man.

Just remember, everything he does sets a precedent. The beauty of our democracy is the peaceful transfer of power. The fact that we can have open discussions and fair elections that our leaders abide by is unique to the world.

It obvious that Trump is jealous of the power that other authoritarians have and gets frustrated with check and balances of the democracy. Why is the person he loathes the most happen to be Nancy Pelosi? Yeah I wonder why.

If he wins and goes forward your party is now Trumpicans. Hell his cronies have already hinted they want to change the symbol of the party from an elephant to a lion, in honor of Trump.

We could all be living under a Trump rule (where power is passed down to his family like in North Korea) or a radical militia could assassinate him in a coup d'etat and now we're living under a different authoritarian rule, one whose policies now don't line up with yours.

Democracies have died to authoritarian rule a zillion times in history, it can happen here. I would hope that we would be smart enough to recognize it and snuff it out early but....maybe I think too highly of our voting base.
Manwithtinfoilhat.jpg
 
Like Trump said, its just another 'hoax'.... like the Russian interference, Covid etc.

Why would he lie or cry hoax?
 
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Just to tie it in somewhere, the president has ordered Stars and Stripes shut down. Their last paper will be on September 30.

That's not true. I really thought you were above this TDS, throw everything at him and hope it sticks crap...

The cutting of Stars & Sripes (Military Times duplicates their efforts and eats their lunch while doing so, by the way)was a Pentagon cost cutting proposal that Trump overrode as soon as he was made aware of it. Now if you truly believe that he's personally responsible for line by line Pentagon cost cutting concepts then I have a bridge in NY I'd like to sell you...

Back to the Atlantic article: it seems clear to anyone who isn't instantly triggered by the name Donald Trump that it's a classic piece of "disinformation" the likes of which national intelligence outfits the world over have used against their adversaries (to great effect)..., for decades... In this case I presume it what has now being it is now being utilized by the Communist Chinese thru multiple cutouts...(or it could just be the Democratic Party [its tough to tell the difference between them and a foreign adversary these days]..., I expect to see a lot more of this sort of thing between now and Election Day...

By the way, I happen to have some personal insight as to Marine generals and I can tell you, with a high degree of certainty..., that had Donald Trump actually disparaged General Kelly's son, or his fellow Marines, while on the ground in section 60, he would not have survived the error unscathed..., Secret Service or not...

To simplify things for you: Why the delay on this article? None of the things written about happened in the past few weeks... Could this be just an elaborate hit piece to damage DT's reelection chances? I'll give you a minute... I know that's a tough one to answer...(DWS)
 
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That's not true. I really thought you were above this TDS, throw everything at him and hope it sticks crap...

The cutting of Stars & Sripes (Military Times duplicates their efforts and eats their lunch while doing so, by the way)was a Pentagon cost cutting proposal that Trump overrode as soon as he was made aware of it. Now if you truly believe that he's personally responsible for line by line Pentagon cost cutting concepts then I have a bridge in NY I'd like to sell you...

Back to the Atlantic article: it seems clear to anyone who isn't instantly triggered by the name Donald Trump that it's a classic piece of "disinformation" the likes of which national intelligence outfits the world over have used against their adversaries (to great effect)..., for decades... In this case I presume it what has now being it is now being utilized by the Communist Chinese thru multiple cutouts... I expect to see a lot more of this sort of thing between now and Election Day...

By the way, I happen to have some personal insight into as to Marine generals and I can tell you, with a high degree of certainty..., that had Donald Trump actually disparaged General Kelly's son, or his fellow Marines, while on the ground in section 60, he would not have survived the error unscathed..., Secret Service or not...

To simplify things for you: Why the delay on this article? None of the things written about happened in the past few weeks... Could this be just an elaborate hit piece to damage DT's reelection chances? I'll give you a minute... I know that's a tough one to answer...(DWS)

He's already lied multiple times in his reply.

One claiming he never called McCain a loser (he tweeted it twice and he publicly stated he wasn't a hero) and then he said that the rainy day in Paris he called Melania back in Washington when, she was with him in Paris so....oops.

He also waited two days to lower flags for his death. Word was he was pissed about it and didn't want to do it because he said mean things.

Are you a McCain republican or a Trump republican? Looks like there are two factions developing.
 
Trump says zillions of things i wish he wouldn’t say and in fact i disagree with. Biden stands for policies and supports special interests that are worse for the country than what Trump says. Not hard for me.

So trumps policies of benefiting himself and the rich, destroying the environment and alienating our allies is preferable?

Your priorities are out of whack.
 
That's not true. I really thought you were above this TDS, throw everything at him and hope it sticks crap...

The cutting of Stars & Sripes (Military Times duplicates their efforts and eats their lunch while doing so, by the way)was a Pentagon cost cutting proposal that Trump overrode as soon as he was made aware of it. Now if you truly believe that he's personally responsible for line by line Pentagon cost cutting concepts then I have a bridge in NY I'd like to sell you...

Back to the Atlantic article: it seems clear to anyone who isn't instantly triggered by the name Donald Trump that it's a classic piece of "disinformation" the likes of which national intelligence outfits the world over have used against their adversaries (to great effect)..., for decades... In this case I presume it what has now being it is now being utilized by the Communist Chinese thru multiple cutouts... I expect to see a lot more of this sort of thing between now and Election Day...

By the way, I happen to have some personal insight into as to Marine generals and I can tell you, with a high degree of certainty..., that had Donald Trump actually disparaged General Kelly's son, or his fellow Marines, while on the ground in section 60, he would not have survived the error unscathed..., Secret Service or not...

To simplify things for you: Why the delay on this article? None of the things written about happened in the past few weeks... Could this be just an elaborate hit piece to damage DT's reelection chances? I'll give you a minute... I know that's a tough one to answer...(DWS)

I do not know when Trump was made aware of it, but Senators were complaining a full day before Trump stopped it. So SecDef made these cuts on his own and never once told the White House? I would recommend to Trump that he find a new SecDef. A president cannot have something like this blindiside them.

As to the alleged Trump quote, I have no idea if it is accurate and said so. But I did here Trump last night say the job completely broke General Kelly and he was totally unable to function. So who knows if he would have been able to do anything. And I will say this, I do not think any Marine officer is likely to slug a commander.
 
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I do not know when Trump was made aware of it, but Senators were complaining a full day before Trump stopped it. So SecDef made these cuts on his own and never once told the White House? I would recommend to Trump that he find a new SecDef. A president cannot have something like this blindiside them.

As to the alleged Trump quote, I have no idea if it is accurate and said so. But I did here Trump last night say the job completely broke General Kelly and he was totally unable to function. So who knows if he would have been able to do anything. And I will say this, I do not think any Marine officer is likely to slug a commander.

Then you clearly have never been around any retired Marine Generals...
 
If I had read the basis of this article 5 years ago, I’d be inclined to see it as more fiction than fact. But after the episodes with Admiral McRaven, General Mattis, General Kelly, General McChrystal, John McCain, Alexander Vindman and the Khan family, it’s not unreasonable to suggest the report flies somewhere north of “likely” and not exactly off-brand for POTUS.

I think we can reasonably separate the issues of “did this likely happen” vs “was this the proper way to publish the story”? If I’m a betting man, I’d have a decent $ on the gist of the story being true. I’m also concerned that a story this explosive may not have named sources yet....though that may change.

As someone who worked in GOP politics and was around the military both in professional and private circles, I can say that the basis of this article is not entirely shocking to me. There has been chatter like this for some time about Trump and his “non-standard” insights on military service. Does that make the article 100% true? Not necessarily. I will say that many of the guys listed above are deeply respected within the branches they represented.... and Trump’s puerile condemnation of them did not exactly go unnoticed within those service communities.

The latest Military Times poll of service members backs up your suspicions about Trump's standing in service communities.

And I get that my Republican colleagues prefer the policies that are likely under Trump over the policies Biden is likely to push. What I don't get is why they don't push for someone less inept and less corrupt...really just someone less awful...to push them. The challenge for Republicans is that their preferred policies are becoming tied to Trump and Trump's massive negatives are negatively impacting views of those policies.
 
Then you clearly have never been around any retired Marine Generals...

C'mon, 76. You think Marine Generals are so weak and unable to control their emotions that they would physically attack the President of the United States because of something they said? I'm fairly certain that nearly all of our Generals are more tactical than that.
 
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I do not know when Trump was made aware of it, but Senators were complaining a full day before Trump stopped it. So SecDef made these cuts on his own and never once told the White House? I would recommend to Trump that he find a new SecDef. A president cannot have something like this blindiside them.

As to the alleged Trump quote, I have no idea if it is accurate and said so. But I did here Trump last night say the job completely broke General Kelly and he was totally unable to function. So who knows if he would have been able to do anything. And I will say this, I do not think any Marine officer is likely to slug a commander.
It's $15 million bucks from a defense budget of more than $700 BILLION! I very much doubt that the SecDef or his advisors thought this was important enough for them to clear it with the President. Stars and Stripes isn't being read much by the troops anymore - most have the same media access as any civilian in the US has no matter where they're stationed. If it weren't for politicians being politicians it wouldn't have been a blip on the screen. I don't like Trump either (obviously), but not everything that happens in our government is coming from the President or cleared by the President - any President. People in government are allowed to make decisions at their level. If they didn't our government wouldn't function at all.

I agree with you about Marine officers (or any officers) - they're not going to slug the President.
 
Then you clearly have never been around any retired Marine Generals...
I've been around retired and active duty Marine Generals. I've been in a meeting with General Mattis (I didn't talk to him, but he impressed me). They're not going to slug the CinC. It just isn't going to happen. Period.
 
The latest Military Times poll of service members backs up your suspicions about Trump's standing in service communities.
Yet another reason I can't stand Trump. He's ruining the Republican party's strengths - one of them being the overwhelming support of military personnel. The only way to purge Trumpism and save the Republican party is for Trump to be defeated and for the party to reform/regroup.
 
Then you clearly have never been around any retired Marine Generals...
How did they get promoted, something like attacking a superior officer would be a promotion killer. If this has been happening it never made the books of WW1, 2, or Korea. I know during the trip toward the Yalu, OP Smith was as close to insubordinate as possible to Ned Almond but never hit him. It seems he certainly wanted to.

I am sure they talk about, but do you have any links to Marine officers physically attacking a superior?
 
Yet another reason I can't stand Trump. He's ruining the Republican party's strengths - one of them being the overwhelming support of military personnel. The only way to purge Trumpism and save the Republican party is for Trump to be defeated and for the party to reform/regroup.

It's the unfortunate wrong turn for the party that stems from the coalition it has built to win elections. I think the GOP could have shaped Trump if party leaders like Paul Ryan and Mitch McConnell and Lindsey Graham had stood up the way John McCain had and said "This isn't how we govern. We stick to our principles and integrity." There would have been a firestorm to be certain, but I think it's one they would have won and it certainly wouldn't have been worse than the current situation the party finds itself in.
 
C'mon, 76. You think Marine Generals are so weak and unable to control their emotions that they would physically attack the President of the United States because of something they said? I'm fairly certain that nearly all of our Generals are more tactical than that.

And you clearly have never around any Retired Marine General Officers either...
 
It's $15 million bucks from a defense budget of more than $700 BILLION! I very much doubt that the SecDef or his advisors thought this was important enough for them to clear it with the President. Stars and Stripes isn't being read much by the troops anymore - most have the same media access as any civilian in the US has no matter where they're stationed. If it weren't for politicians being politicians it wouldn't have been a blip on the screen. I don't like Trump either (obviously), but not everything that happens in our government is coming from the President or cleared by the President - any President. People in government are allowed to make decisions at their level. If they didn't our government wouldn't function at all.

I agree with you about Marine officers (or any officers) - they're not going to slug the President.

It is not the money, it is the symbolism. The guards of the Tomb of the Unknown have a very small budget, but if SecDef ordered them cut you do not think POTUS would want advanced warning?

You guys know this as well as I, part of any subordinate's job is to make sure the boss isn't blindsided by something. SecDef either thought this would not land at the desk of POTUS, or thought so and did not care. Either way it is a problem.

But I am arguing something that does not matter. If this was so new that Trump had no idea, how did I post about it in February? https://indiana.forums.rivals.com/threads/defense-spending.195120/
 
How did they get promoted, something like attacking a superior officer would be a promotion killer. If this has been happening it never made the books of WW1, 2, or Korea. I know during the trip toward the Yalu, OP Smith was as close to insubordinate as possible to Ned Almond but never hit him. It seems he certainly wanted to.

I am sure they talk about, but do you have any links to Marine officers physically attacking a superior?

You need to work on your reading comprehension skills. The operative word is "Retired"...

***** Apologies... I guess I didn't have "retired" in my original response (I thought most people knew that Kelly was retired when he was HOMELAND SEC and Presidential Chief of Staff but evidently that's not the case)
 
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How did they get promoted, something like attacking a superior officer would be a promotion killer. If this has been happening it never made the books of WW1, 2, or Korea. I know during the trip toward the Yalu, OP Smith was as close to insubordinate as possible to Ned Almond but never hit him. It seems he certainly wanted to.

I am sure they talk about, but do you have any links to Marine officers physically attacking a superior?
Of course it's a career killer. I had a Lieutenant Junior Grade (LTJG), a prior enlisted Limited Duty Officer, working for me when I was a Lieutenant Commander department head on my 4th ship. He was doing a great job for me and my predecessor had told me he did a great job for him too. He got great fitness reports from both of us, but he didn't select for Lieutenant. I brought him into my office for a discussion and I told him that there has to be something really negative in his record or he'd be making Lieutenant (making LT is the last nearly automatic promotion). He told me, "well, I hit my department head on my previous ship and went to Captain's Mast for it and only got a Letter of Reprimand, but I appealed it and was told that my department head probably deserved being punched." I told him they must not have cleared the NJP from his record and he said they didn't. I frankly told him that he wasn't going to make Lieutenant, but since he was a Limited Duty Officer he could revert to his enlisted rank and recommended he do it (it's an option up to the rank of Lieutenant). He took that advice and it turned out that he reverted to E9 (Master Chief Petty Officer) because while he was commissioned as an officer after he was an E8 he was actually selected to be an E9 too (something I didn't previously know was possible). That's the top of the enlisted ladder. That meant very good retirement pay - better than retiring as a LTJG. He didn't do too bad after all. ;)
 
It is not the money, it is the symbolism. The guards of the Tomb of the Unknown have a very small budget, but if SecDef ordered them cut you do not think POTUS would want advanced warning?

You guys know this as well as I, part of any subordinate's job is to make sure the boss isn't blindsided by something. SecDef either thought this would not land at the desk of POTUS, or thought so and did not care. Either way it is a problem.

But I am arguing something that does not matter. If this was so new that Trump had no idea, how did I post about it in February? https://indiana.forums.rivals.com/threads/defense-spending.195120/
I don't think that this would normally be a big deal. It's a newspaper which isn't getting read much by the troops any longer. It's basically obsolete. I seriously don't think the SecDef thought it worthy of briefing the CinC about. This one is truly about looking to criticize Trump about yet another little thing. I think people should do better at picking their battles.
 
It is not the money, it is the symbolism. The guards of the Tomb of the Unknown have a very small budget, but if SecDef ordered them cut you do not think POTUS would want advanced warning?

You guys know this as well as I, part of any subordinate's job is to make sure the boss isn't blindsided by something. SecDef either thought this would not land at the desk of POTUS, or thought so and did not care. Either way it is a problem.

But I am arguing something that does not matter. If this was so new that Trump had no idea, how did I post about it in February? https://indiana.forums.rivals.com/threads/defense-spending.195120/
By the way, I notice no one thought it was a big enough deal back in February to comment on your post. ;)
 
For those easily confused: I thought pretty much everyone on the planet knew that Gen. Kelly was Retired USMC when he held his civilian government posts....
 
It's the unfortunate wrong turn for the party that stems from the coalition it has built to win elections. I think the GOP could have shaped Trump if party leaders like Paul Ryan and Mitch McConnell and Lindsey Graham had stood up the way John McCain had and said "This isn't how we govern. We stick to our principles and integrity." There would have been a firestorm to be certain, but I think it's one they would have won and it certainly wouldn't have been worse than the current situation the party finds itself in.
And then McCain selected Sarah Palin for VeeP. Even he was human.
 
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