This is interesting. We're experiencing a drastic reduction in poverty as a result of all the free money. The crazy progressives

mcmurtry66

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in the article say it's a result of political choices and government programs. but it's not government programs. it's getting money to people. stimulus checks. unemployment checks. child credits converted not to a credit but an actual monthly check. i've long said i don't have the economics background/acumen to know/understand the long-term impact of UBI as it relates to inflation adn other issues but i strongly believe money in people's pockets is infinitely better than government programs. billions and billions on public transit that requires three stops and two transfers and only goes to designated spots doesn't do shit for people trying to find work when half the opportunities are in places transit doesn't reach or conveniently reach. a car makes all the difference in the world. with ubi they have money for a car, not bus passes or train vouchers. i know many of my conservative brethren here hate the notion of ubi but it's effectively what we've been operating under for the last year and it's having a material impact on poverty.

govt programs like elevating min wage punish small businesses. a moratorium on evictions punish landlords. they aren't all billionaires. i'd rather see issues like these remedied via basic income

 
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UncleMark

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i know many of my conservative brethren here hate the notion of ubi but it's effectively what we've been operating under for the last year and it's having a material impact on poverty.

It's a pipe dream, but UBI could work to "raise the floor" more efficiently than the smorgasbord of current programs. The biggest hurdle would be how to integrate it with Social Security. Medicare for all would have to be part of the scheme as well.

Side issue -- one of my pet peeves is this notion of "child poverty". WTF? Kids aren't poor, their families are poor. I suppose we could tell the little bastards to get jobs.
 

mcmurtry66

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It's a pipe dream, but UBI could work to "raise the floor" more efficiently than the smorgasbord of current programs. The biggest hurdle would be how to integrate it with Social Security. Medicare for all would have to be part of the scheme as well.

Side issue -- one of my pet peeves is this notion of "child poverty". WTF? Kids aren't poor, their families are poor. I suppose we could tell the little bastards to get jobs.
ubi could just be carved out. maybe it's just a grand a month so for social security retirement you don't include it and for social security disability it doesn't impact your quarters for regular or count towards income for ssi.

maybe instead of medicare for all ubi monies are counted towards (or against really) medicaid eligibility.

i was just struck by the decline in poverty in that short of a time and how a "relatively" small amount of money to each person made that much of an impact. we spend so much through programs, old worn out programs, that might be better off disbanded and the monies earmarked sent directly to those in need. i thought i shared w/ you that one of my buddies owns a car dealership. he fing killed it during covid. killed it. and he said so many people who couldn't get down payments together now were able to.

personally i'd prefer guaranteed basic income with an eligibility threshold but i don't know how you establish same and the resentment for same would be out of control

lol re child poverty. concur.
 
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larsIU

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ubi could just be carved out. maybe it's just a grand a month so for social security retirement you don't include it and for social security disability it doesn't impact your quarters for regular or count towards income for ssi.

maybe instead of medicare for all ubi monies are counted towards (or against really) medicaid eligibility.

i was just struck by the decline in poverty in that short of a time and how a "relatively" small amount of money to each person made that much of an impact. we spend so much through programs, old worn out programs, that might be better off disbanded and the monies earmarked sent directly to those in need. i thought i shared w/ you that one of my buddies owns a car dealership. he fing killed it during covid. killed it. and he said so many people who couldn't get down payments together now were able to.

personally i'd prefer guaranteed basic income with an eligibility threshold but i don't know how you establish same and the resentment for same would be out of control

lol re child poverty. concur.
The cut in bureaucracy alone might be worth it. And the Pubs could yell from the hills that “we gave you the damn bootstraps. Pull yourself up!” A real win win
 
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twenty02

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in the article say it's a result of political choices and government programs. but it's not government programs. it's getting money to people. stimulus checks. unemployment checks. child credits converted not to a credit but an actual monthly check. i've long said i don't have the economics background/acumen to know/understand the long-term impact of UBI as it relates to inflation adn other issues but i strongly believe money in people's pockets is infinitely better than government programs. billions and billions on public transit that requires three stops and two transfers and only goes to designated spots doesn't do shit for people trying to find work when half the opportunities are in places transit doesn't reach or conveniently reach. a car makes all the difference in the world. with ubi they have money for a car, not bus passes or train vouchers. i know many of my conservative brethren here hate the notion of ubi but it's effectively what we've been operating under for the last year and it's having a material impact on poverty.

govt programs like elevating min wage punish small businesses. a moratorium on evictions punish landlords. they aren't all billionaires. i'd rather see issues like these remedied via basic income



The CATO (aka non-cookoo) libertarian crowd has long argued for a UBI to replace all other social welfare programs.
 

mcmurtry66

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The cut in bureaucracy alone might be worth it. And the Pubs could yell from the hills that “we gave you the damn bootstraps. Pull yourself up!” A real win win
lol yes very true. but wholeheartedly agree re the bureaucracy. what i don't know is if there will be unintended consequences (sort of what we're seeing now with labor shortages at lower paying gigs and brutal inflation)
 
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DANC

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in the article say it's a result of political choices and government programs. but it's not government programs. it's getting money to people. stimulus checks. unemployment checks. child credits converted not to a credit but an actual monthly check. i've long said i don't have the economics background/acumen to know/understand the long-term impact of UBI as it relates to inflation adn other issues but i strongly believe money in people's pockets is infinitely better than government programs. billions and billions on public transit that requires three stops and two transfers and only goes to designated spots doesn't do shit for people trying to find work when half the opportunities are in places transit doesn't reach or conveniently reach. a car makes all the difference in the world. with ubi they have money for a car, not bus passes or train vouchers. i know many of my conservative brethren here hate the notion of ubi but it's effectively what we've been operating under for the last year and it's having a material impact on poverty.

govt programs like elevating min wage punish small businesses. a moratorium on evictions punish landlords. they aren't all billionaires. i'd rather see issues like these remedied via basic income

Well, it's like living off your credit cards. It's a lot of fun until it's time to pay the bill.

Don't be fooled by the short term.
 
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DANC

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It's a pipe dream, but UBI could work to "raise the floor" more efficiently than the smorgasbord of current programs. The biggest hurdle would be how to integrate it with Social Security. Medicare for all would have to be part of the scheme as well.

Side issue -- one of my pet peeves is this notion of "child poverty". WTF? Kids aren't poor, their families are poor. I suppose we could tell the little bastards to get jobs.
Some little bastards to go get a job. They're the successful ones later in life.
 

mcmurtry66

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Well, it's like living off your credit cards. It's a lot of fun until it's time to pay the bill.

Don't be fooled by the short term.
I haven’t crunched numbers, obviously, but it wouldn’t be on top of the endless social programs it would be in place of
 
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DANC

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I haven’t crunched numbers, obviously, but it wouldn’t be on top of the endless social programs it would be in place of
I'm talking about the supposed drop in poverty level you're talking about. Of course we can make the numbers better if we continue to give away money indefinitely without worrying about paying for it.

As far as replacing the social programs with a cash payout, I'd be fine with that, with conditions. But I think you know that will never happen. It would mean dismantling too much of the federal government - the largest employer in the world. The Dims would lose too many patronage jobs.
 
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twenty02

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We need to decide what to do with the people who still fail. Guy blows all his UBI on gambling, and now his family is homeless. Without our present skate programs, what happens?

I'd assume it would just be a monthly payment..... how is that different than anything else? I'm no expert on the multitudes of social welfare programs, but aren't most just EBT cards and housing credits (beyond things like Medicaid).
 

TheOriginalHappyGoat

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I'd assume it would just be a monthly payment..... how is that different than anything else? I'm no expert on the multitudes of social welfare programs, but aren't most just EBT cards and housing credits (beyond things like Medicaid).
Hmm, I suppose I probably don't know enough about how the current programs work, either. I guess I was thinking more abstractly that they (in theory) represent some kind of safety net that's inherently different than a cash payment.
 
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mcmurtry66

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Hmm, I suppose I probably don't know enough about how the current programs work, either. I guess I was thinking more abstractly that they (in theory) represent some kind of safety net that's inherently different than a cash payment.
You would always have to have some programs but UBI could eliminate many. A problem is that proving it to those who need it (guaranteed) may work but providing it to everyone (ubi) would be extremely expensive. Here’s a start:

 
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mushroomgod_1

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in the article say it's a result of political choices and government programs. but it's not government programs. it's getting money to people. stimulus checks. unemployment checks. child credits converted not to a credit but an actual monthly check. i've long said i don't have the economics background/acumen to know/understand the long-term impact of UBI as it relates to inflation adn other issues but i strongly believe money in people's pockets is infinitely better than government programs. billions and billions on public transit that requires three stops and two transfers and only goes to designated spots doesn't do shit for people trying to find work when half the opportunities are in places transit doesn't reach or conveniently reach. a car makes all the difference in the world. with ubi they have money for a car, not bus passes or train vouchers. i know many of my conservative brethren here hate the notion of ubi but it's effectively what we've been operating under for the last year and it's having a material impact on poverty.

govt programs like elevating min wage punish small businesses. a moratorium on evictions punish landlords. they aren't all billionaires. i'd rather see issues like these remedied via basic income


All of the Covid $ should have gone directly to individuals. None for the free-spending states, none for corporations, none for pork. It was a repeat of the housing crisis/recession bailouts. I don't think anyone even suggested it, among the political class.
 

Gene1945

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in the article say it's a result of political choices and government programs. but it's not government programs. it's getting money to people. stimulus checks. unemployment checks. child credits converted not to a credit but an actual monthly check. i've long said i don't have the economics background/acumen to know/understand the long-term impact of UBI as it relates to inflation adn other issues but i strongly believe money in people's pockets is infinitely better than government programs. billions and billions on public transit that requires three stops and two transfers and only goes to designated spots doesn't do shit for people trying to find work when half the opportunities are in places transit doesn't reach or conveniently reach. a car makes all the difference in the world. with ubi they have money for a car, not bus passes or train vouchers. i know many of my conservative brethren here hate the notion of ubi but it's effectively what we've been operating under for the last year and it's having a material impact on poverty.

govt programs like elevating min wage punish small businesses. a moratorium on evictions punish landlords. they aren't all billionaires. i'd rather see issues like these remedied via basic income

 

TheOriginalHappyGoat

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You would always have to have some programs but UBI could eliminate many. A problem is that proving it to those who need it (guaranteed) may work but providing it to everyone (ubi) would be extremely expensive. Here’s a start:

Another problem: the past year as an experiment for UBI is one in which UBI supplements, but does not replace, traditional welfare. So it might not be very instructive for what we've been talking about in this thread as a possible future system.
 
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JamieDimonsBalls

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I'd assume it would just be a monthly payment..... how is that different than anything else? I'm no expert on the multitudes of social welfare programs, but aren't most just EBT cards and housing credits (beyond things like Medicaid).

Food stamps can only be used on qualified purchases. Goat's point is that if you just give people cash, it is impossible to restrict.
 
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UncleMark

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Food stamps can only be used on qualified purchases. Goat's point is that if you just give people cash, it is impossible to restrict.
There's a built in assumption that poor people can't be trusted to spend money wisely. Therefore, any assistance has to be tightly restricted and controlled. Even then, everyone knows they still spend all their EBT money on chips and cookies.
 

TheOriginalHappyGoat

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Food stamps can only be used on qualified purchases. Goat's point is that if you just give people cash, it is impossible to restrict.
There's a built in assumption that poor people can't be trusted to spend money wisely. Therefore, any assistance has to be tightly restricted and controlled. Even then, everyone knows they still spend all their EBT money on chips and cookies.
Just to be clear, I'm not saying that any particular people can't be trusted to spend money wisely. I'm saying that in any large group of people, at least some of them won't. So we have to decide what happens to them and their families if we're going to revolutionize the welfare safety net.
 
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JamieDimonsBalls

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Just to be clear, I'm not saying that any particular people can't be trusted to spend money wisely. I'm saying that in any large group of people, at least some of them won't. So we have to decide what happens to them and their families if we're going to revolutionize the welfare safety net.

what should happen to them? Any ideas?
 

DANC

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There's a built in assumption that poor people can't be trusted to spend money wisely. Therefore, any assistance has to be tightly restricted and controlled. Even then, everyone knows they still spend all their EBT money on chips and cookies.
I've been poor. I know lots of poor people. Some are relatives.

And I can say with almost 100% certainty - people are poor because they don't spend money wisely.

You can get by on very little if you prioritize your spending. Now, you can ask "What if I'm unemployed?" or "What if I work a minimum wage job". That's not an economic issue - that's an education and/or discipline problem. Stay in school, stay off drugs, don't break the law, don't have kids before you're married, don't party every weekend, get to work on time, be respectful- do these things and chances are, you'll move up the income ladder pretty easily.

The problem with people who remain poor is, they have a short time horizon. They don't think past the next few days. If they have money in their hands today, they spend it almost immediately. So, if you give them a check, it WILL be spent. On something, anything.

I'll give you an example. I had a woman employee whose husband had a decent job as a welder. He quit his job to become a tatoo artist. She was a good worker - when she came to work. I liked her because she was good with customers. She and her husband had 3 kids, all by her husband - but she had her first kid out of wedlock at age 16. They were young and had potential to move out of poverty, imo. They weren't dumb. But here's why they're still poor - every year, they got a huge tax rebate - more than they paid into taxes - because they were below a certain income level and had 3 kids. They were getting around $7,000 every year.

Now, you would think that would pay a lot of back utility bills, phone bills, car repairs, etc. Wrong. They would buy aboslute useless SHIT for the kids, party it up, and by the end of the next month, the money was gone. Very few bills would be paid and they'd be right back to having their electricity and gas shut off and unable to pay their phone bills and driving shit cars that were always breaking down.

And I know this is not uncommon.

For the few people who are disciplined, cash payments could be a faster step up. But for the vast majority, it won't do a thing to lift them out of poverty..
 

TheOriginalHappyGoat

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what should happen to them? Any ideas?
I think we need to care for most if not all of them. Minor children, obviously. The mentally ill, too. Those suffering from illness and addiction? Probably, them too. Assholes who just refuse to live responsibly? I'm less sympathetic to them, but I am sympathetic to the others their failures may impact.

I really like the idea of dismantling the safety net in favor of a UBI in theory. I think it probably needs to be phased in. We start by sending everyone $600/month, and we count it against their eligibility for food stamps and the like. And we gradually increase the amount over many years while also gradually defunding the other programs the money is meant to replace.

But we still end up with a world where a drug-addled war veteran is homeless because he spent all his UBI money on heroin, and I'm not really comfortable saying to that man, "Hey you had your chance, so now you have to freeze to death."

EDIT: I also think this would be more palatable if it came paired with a New Deal-level government program of finding employment for all who are capable. "Here's your UBI, you don't have a job? We have a bridge that needs some work." That kind of thing.
 
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UncleMark

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They were getting around $7,000 every year.

Now, you would think that would pay a lot of back utility bills, phone bills, car repairs, etc. Wrong. They would buy aboslute useless SHIT for the kids, party it up, and by the end of the next month, the money was gone.

Lump sum payments like the tax refund/rebate you describe are going to lend themselves to that kind of poor money management.

On the other hand, instead of dumping a big pot of money on someone all at once, UBI would raise their income incrementally once a month. Let's say you got $600 on the first of the month and your rent was $750 due on the 10th. I'd posit that the rent would get paid in a more regular, timely fashion.

I shook my head at some of the low income people I've dealt with over the years. They'd get their W2s on January 20th or whenever and sprint down to the tax preparer and take out the loan against their refunds, at what should have been usury rates and with high prep fees and whatnot. Put a big dent in what they actually got back. I'd point out to them they could go down to the United Way and get their returns done for free and six weeks later they would get a lot more money back. But no, they wanted their money right fvcking now.
 

Sope Creek

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Lump sum payments like the tax refund/rebate you describe are going to lend themselves to that kind of poor money management.

On the other hand, instead of dumping a big pot of money on someone all at once, UBI would raise their income incrementally once a month. Let's say you got $600 on the first of the month and your rent was $750 due on the 10th. I'd posit that the rent would get paid in a more regular, timely fashion.

I shook my head at some of the low income people I've dealt with over the years. They'd get their W2s on January 20th or whenever and sprint down to the tax preparer and take out the loan against their refunds, at what should have been usury rates and with high prep fees and whatnot. Put a big dent in what they actually got back. I'd point out to them they could go down to the United Way and get their returns done for free and six weeks later they would get a lot more money back. But no, they wanted their money right fvcking now.
Delayed gratification is a skill that starts as a values decision then morphs into a habit . . . a strong habit that's sometimes tough to shake. But as M. Scott Peck says*, it's the only decent way to live.

* In his book The Road Less Traveled.
 

TommyCracker

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Yang was the big national ubi guy and his main go to guy was Scott Santens (if you want to you tube or Twitter a guy who very strongly favors a national ubi). Keep in mind Yang was trying to stand out as a presidential candidate and is definitely not an expert, at anything, even though he'll tell you he is. He's just a politician.

Anyway my question has always been the math. There are 260 million us adults.

Giving everyone a thousand a month is over 3 trillion dollars.

Individual tax revenue is around 1.5 trillion (payroll taxes are around the same and corporate taxes are less than a half a billion).

So Yang's UBI would tax every tax dollar that we raise. He argues that would take the stigma out of taking govt cheese.

He quotes MLK and Friedman a lot but they were never for universal basic income, they were more for a minimum basic income (which is what I believe is more what you're wanting). Which is simply the govt chips in to get everyone over the poverty line.

But per Danc's point that happens after to file your taxes and would come in one big check most likely (per Friedman).

So do you base a monthly payment on the previous year taxes and send it as a monthly subsidy?

The solution I liked was from Mark Cuban. He proposed govt debit cards that get a monthly balance that can only be used in govt approved places, therefore recirculating the money back into the economy.

That helps eliminate spending it on booze and drugs, etc. Having it be a monthly balance refresh and max (say $500) eliminates spending it all on big purchases.

That seemed like a pretty good way to contract some big social programs into a straight lined ubi program while still being able to measure it's impact and help spur some kind of 'trickle up' economy as Yang likes to say.
 

DANC

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Lump sum payments like the tax refund/rebate you describe are going to lend themselves to that kind of poor money management.

On the other hand, instead of dumping a big pot of money on someone all at once, UBI would raise their income incrementally once a month. Let's say you got $600 on the first of the month and your rent was $750 due on the 10th. I'd posit that the rent would get paid in a more regular, timely fashion.

I shook my head at some of the low income people I've dealt with over the years. They'd get their W2s on January 20th or whenever and sprint down to the tax preparer and take out the loan against their refunds, at what should have been usury rates and with high prep fees and whatnot. Put a big dent in what they actually got back. I'd point out to them they could go down to the United Way and get their returns done for free and six weeks later they would get a lot more money back. But no, they wanted their money right fvcking now.
Oh yeah, they didn't wait for the $7k to be sent by the government. They paid a tax preparing and then got a loan against the refund.

People like this are like people that are drowning - they clutch onto anything that will support them and damn the future.

Whether lump sum payment or monthly, I can guarantee it won't make a dent in their poverty situation.

Growing up, we had the definition of 'hillbilly rich' - that's when you had 2 cars jacked up in the yard.

This is what 'liberals' don't understand - human nature and incentives (or disincentives). They think everyone thinks like they do and they are sadly mistaken.
 
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DANC

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Delayed gratification is a skill that starts as a values decision then morphs into a habit . . . a strong habit that's sometimes tough to shake. But as M. Scott Peck says*, it's the only decent way to live.

* In his book The Road Less Traveled.
The Millionaire Nex Door is another good one.
 
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mcmurtry66

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Yang was the big national ubi guy and his main go to guy was Scott Santens (if you want to you tube or Twitter a guy who very strongly favors a national ubi). Keep in mind Yang was trying to stand out as a presidential candidate and is definitely not an expert, at anything, even though he'll tell you he is. He's just a politician.

Anyway my question has always been the math. There are 260 million us adults.

Giving everyone a thousand a month is over 3 trillion dollars.

Individual tax revenue is around 1.5 trillion (payroll taxes are around the same and corporate taxes are less than a half a billion).

So Yang's UBI would tax every tax dollar that we raise. He argues that would take the stigma out of taking govt cheese.

He quotes MLK and Friedman a lot but they were never for universal basic income, they were more for a minimum basic income (which is what I believe is more what you're wanting). Which is simply the govt chips in to get everyone over the poverty line.

But per Danc's point that happens after to file your taxes and would come in one big check most likely (per Friedman).

So do you base a monthly payment on the previous year taxes and send it as a monthly subsidy?

The solution I liked was from Mark Cuban. He proposed govt debit cards that get a monthly balance that can only be used in govt approved places, therefore recirculating the money back into the economy.

That helps eliminate spending it on booze and drugs, etc. Having it be a monthly balance refresh and max (say $500) eliminates spending it all on big purchases.

That seemed like a pretty good way to contract some big social programs into a straight lined ubi program while still being able to measure it's impact and help spur some kind of 'trickle up' economy as Yang likes to say.
That’s why guaranteed basic income (means tested) is preferable to universal. The problem with guaranteed is resentment and threshold enforcement
 

DANC

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Yang was the big national ubi guy and his main go to guy was Scott Santens (if you want to you tube or Twitter a guy who very strongly favors a national ubi). Keep in mind Yang was trying to stand out as a presidential candidate and is definitely not an expert, at anything, even though he'll tell you he is. He's just a politician.

Anyway my question has always been the math. There are 260 million us adults.

Giving everyone a thousand a month is over 3 trillion dollars.

Individual tax revenue is around 1.5 trillion (payroll taxes are around the same and corporate taxes are less than a half a billion).

So Yang's UBI would tax every tax dollar that we raise. He argues that would take the stigma out of taking govt cheese.

He quotes MLK and Friedman a lot but they were never for universal basic income, they were more for a minimum basic income (which is what I believe is more what you're wanting). Which is simply the govt chips in to get everyone over the poverty line.

But per Danc's point that happens after to file your taxes and would come in one big check most likely (per Friedman).

So do you base a monthly payment on the previous year taxes and send it as a monthly subsidy?

The solution I liked was from Mark Cuban. He proposed govt debit cards that get a monthly balance that can only be used in govt approved places, therefore recirculating the money back into the economy.

That helps eliminate spending it on booze and drugs, etc. Having it be a monthly balance refresh and max (say $500) eliminates spending it all on big purchases.

That seemed like a pretty good way to contract some big social programs into a straight lined ubi program while still being able to measure it's impact and help spur some kind of 'trickle up' economy as Yang likes to say.
"The solution I liked was from Mark Cuban. He proposed govt debit cards that get a monthly balance that can only be used in govt approved places, therefore recirculating the money back into the economy.

That helps eliminate spending it on booze and drugs, etc. Having it be a monthly balance refresh and max (say $500) eliminates spending it all on big purchases."


Yeah, it seems like a pretty good way - to you. But let me tell you what happens in the real world - those cards, or goods, are sold for drugs, sex, etc. It happens today in the food stamp programs. EBT cards are just another currency.

Bottom line is, it's not a poverty issue. It's a societal issue. We don't teach morals or discipline anymore. It's all 'your choice', 'do what is right for YOU', 'you have a right to be happy', and yes 'make as much money as you can, however you can'.

In Europe, which has had an established 'safety net' social system, there is little corruption (it's getting worse with more immigration) and the recipients are expected to make honest efforts to get off the system and training is provided.

I think the biggest bang for our buck would be required financial and responsibility classes for students beginning in grade 1 and contintuing through HS. It's more important for most students to learn about how to plan and stick to a budget than Algebra II or Calculus. I'd also like to see the government fund post-high school apprenticeship programs.

Handing out money is short term thinking. To fix the problem in the long run, we need to change society and it starts in the schools.
 

DANC

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That’s why guaranteed basic income (means tested) is preferable to universal. The problem with guaranteed is resentment and threshold enforcement
I'm afraid the same thing will happen that happens now with eligibility for social programs - people work just enough to qualify for the benefits, then quit their jobs because they can make more money off the government than if they continue working and make over the poverty line.

And don't underestimate the off-the-books economy in the US to support people who qualify for social programs.
 

UncleMark

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Delayed gratification is a skill that starts as a values decision then morphs into a habit . . . a strong habit that's sometimes tough to shake. But as M. Scott Peck says*, it's the only decent way to live.

I don't know if I'd call it delayed gratification, but living like paupers sure has been tough to shake.

While we were never spendthrifts, me and the boss used to be a lot looser with our money. All that changed in 2008. Income was cut drastically while expenses jumped a huge amount. What we discovered was we needed substantially less than what we'd thought. It took a further while to find out what we wanted actually was a lot less than what we thought, too.

Today, we're in much much better shape, and could loosen up a bit without putting our situation under any stress, but so far at least we're still living like we have since the Great Recession. I'm thinking we need to work on that, and have suggested some things to the boss that we never would have considered before. So far she's taken a pass. Me, I'm still thinking I'd like to take in some IU ball games, and since I'm not going to be getting any comp tickets like I did when I had a real job that means I'm going to have to fork over some cash. Time will tell if I allow myself to do that.
 

Joe_Hoopsier

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Yeah, it seems like a pretty good way - to you. But let me tell you what happens in the real world - those cards, or goods, are sold for drugs, sex, etc. It happens today in the food stamp programs. EBT cards are just another currency.
Come'on Danc. This is just another liberal communist piece they want to get in place and then say in 10 years... OH well that was just an unintentional consequence. Their buddies will give them a pass and say, aww shucks. The problem, as you point out, It ISN'T unintentional, its been going on for the last 50 years and they just double down on it.

Aww Shucks.

Poor people are saying... Hey dem's stop trying to help, you are killing us. LITERALLY Killing us.
 
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DANC

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I don't know if I'd call it delayed gratification, but living like paupers sure has been tough to shake.

While we were never spendthrifts, me and the boss used to be a lot looser with our money. All that changed in 2008. Income was cut drastically while expenses jumped a huge amount. What we discovered was we needed substantially less than what we'd thought. It took a further while to find out what we wanted actually was a lot less than what we thought, too.

Today, we're in much much better shape, and could loosen up a bit without putting our situation under any stress, but so far at least we're still living like we have since the Great Recession. I'm thinking we need to work on that, and have suggested some things to the boss that we never would have considered before. So far she's taken a pass. Me, I'm still thinking I'd like to take in some IU ball games, and since I'm not going to be getting any comp tickets like I did when I had a real job that means I'm going to have to fork over some cash. Time will tell if I allow myself to do that.
Too bad you weren't nicer to me. I give my tickets away every basketball season for some games.
 

DANC

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Come'on Danc. This is just another liberal communist piece they want to get in place and then say in 10 years... OH well that was just an unintentional consequence. Their buddies will give them a pass and say, aww shucks. The problem, as you point out, It ISN'T unintentional, its been going on for the last 50 years and they just double down on it.

Aww Shucks.

Poor people are saying... Hey dem's stop trying to help, you are killing us. LITERALLY Killing us.
Yep, they've really helped out the black and minority communities with the Great Society, haven't they?
 
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UncleMark

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Yeah, it seems like a pretty good way - to you. But let me tell you what happens in the real world - those cards, or goods, are sold for drugs, sex, etc. It happens today in the food stamp programs. EBT cards are just another currency.

No one will dispute there are abuses. That doesn't mean the scheme as a whole is unworkable or meritless. Don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good and all that.