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The truth re: Trump’s claims re: the Mueller investigation

wiede

wiede

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Sep 25, 2001
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https://www.nytimes.com/2018/08/18/us/politics/fact-check-trump-russia-election-interference-.html

Here’s a nice summary re: Trump’s attacks on the Mueller investigation.

I’ve seen several of the false statements repeated on here. Just trying to help some brothers (and maybe even some sisters) out.

What stands out is his willingness to spread blatant lies about the investigation. All he’s doing is laying more bricks in the future obstruction charge(s) against him.

Just like everything else, he reacts viscerally, and doesn’t really think much about the future implications of his tweets. Amazingly short sighted.
 
wiede said:
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/08/18/us/politics/fact-check-trump-russia-election-interference-.html

Here’s a nice summary re: Trump’s attacks on the Mueller investigation.

I’ve seen several of the false statements repeated on here. Just trying to help some brothers (and maybe even some sisters) out.

What stands out is his willingness to spread blatant lies about the investigation. All he’s doing is laying more bricks in the future obstruction charge(s) against him.

Just like everything else, he reacts viscerally, and doesn’t really think much about the future implications of his tweets. Amazingly short sighted.
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I am convinced that he is guilty as charged. Why else does he spend so much time and so much energy, insisting that he is not guilty? I am sure it is not to raise the stock price of Twitter.
 
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meridian said:
I am convinced that he is guilty as charged. Why else does spend so much time and so much energy, insisting that he is not guilty? I am sure it is not to raise the stock price of Twitter.
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He has always had the inability to walk away from any perceived slight (even ones that aren’t real), without “counter-punching”. Since everything in his world is literally about him, everything is a potential d$&@-swinging contest with him.

But that doesn’t explain his actions re: this probe. He’s hiding something, and he knows the more Mueller digs, the more he’s going to find. And, it’s likely related to his financial intanglements with Russians.

And, I’d bet that he knew all about the Russian Help, but allowed it to continue. It’s pretty clear he did, based on what’s come out recently.
 
T.M.P. said:
*Conspired.
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Exactly.

BTW, using the term “collusion” is throwing a huge “red herring” into the discussion. You won’t find that term in the federal code/laws.

But you will find “conspiracy”. Wonder why the Donald hasn’t used that term?
 
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meridian said:
I am convinced that he is guilty as charged. Why else does he spend so much time and so much energy, insisting that he is not guilty? I am sure it is not to raise the stock price of Twitter.
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Your opinion doesn’t count :D
 
wiede said:
Exactly.

BTW, using the term “conspiracy” is throwing a huge “red herring” into the discussion. You won’t find that term in the federal code/laws.

But you will find “conspiracy”. Wonder why the Donald hasn’t used that term?
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One of your "conspiracy" references should probably be "collusion."
 
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Trump knows if it comes down to credibility, he's toast:

Exclusive: Trump is worried that Mueller interview could be a 'perjury trap'

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...terview-could-be-a-perjury-trap-idUSKCN1L526P

In an interview with Reuters, Trump echoed the concerns of his top lawyer in the probe, Rudy Giuliani, who has warned that any sit-down with Mueller could be a “perjury trap.”

The president expressed fears that investigators could compare his statements with that of others who have testified in the probe, such as former FBI Director James Comey, and that any discrepancies could be used against him.

“Even if I am telling the truth, that makes me a liar,” Trump said. “That’s no good.”​
 
UncleMark said:
Trump knows if it comes down to credibility, he's toast:

Exclusive: Trump is worried that Mueller interview could be a 'perjury trap'

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...terview-could-be-a-perjury-trap-idUSKCN1L526P

In an interview with Reuters, Trump echoed the concerns of his top lawyer in the probe, Rudy Giuliani, who has warned that any sit-down with Mueller could be a “perjury trap.”

The president expressed fears that investigators could compare his statements with that of others who have testified in the probe, such as former FBI Director James Comey, and that any discrepancies could be used against him.

“Even if I am telling the truth, that makes me a liar,” Trump said. “That’s no good.”​
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Trump has probably spent far more time on legal research as to whom he can pardon and whether he can pardon himself than he has researching and refreshing his memory on factual matters. He just doesn't seem to care about facts. This all might come to a head if/when Manifort gets convicted but will certainly come to a head if Trump Jr. or other relative gets indicted.
 
Stuffshot said:
Trump has probably spent far more time on legal research as to whom he can pardon and whether he can pardon himself than he has researching and refreshing his memory on factual matters. He just doesn't seem to care about facts. This all might come to a head if/when Manifort gets convicted but will certainly come to a head if Trump Jr. or other relative gets indicted.
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Is it a lie if a person doesn’t truly know if what they said is the truth, or a lie?

I truly think he sometimes convinces himself of “alternate facts”. In other words, he says something enough, even though he knew it to be false in the beginning, that he actually believes the lie to be truth after time. Basically, he talked himself into the lie as being truth.

Plus, even if the above isn’t true, the guy is a habitual liar. He literally cannot tell the truth, and he even lies when there’s no reason to lie. Trump being deposed by Mueller’s Team would be a nightmare for Trump.

And, a perjury trap isn’t a perjury trap- if you’re telling the truth. It is a problem- when you are a habitual liar. Like Trump. But again, even then it’s not a perjury trap.

For example, Giuliani now claims that Trump and Comey never had the conversation re: “laying off Michael Flynn”. That’s batchit crazy (like MIchelle Bachman level crazy), because the president has already admitted that the conversation took place (remember the tweet saying where he insinuated there may be tapes?).

Trump and his lawyers will claim that testifying about this a perjury trap, because he’s basically screwed no matter what he says to Mueller’s team.

That’s a very twisted way to look at things. Remember, Giuliani basically said a few days ago that facts aren’t facts- they are open to interpretation. Which is also insane.

It’s pretty obvious that Giuliani has convinced him it’s a bad idea to go to a voluntary interview with Mueller’s team. I guess all the crazy @ss media interviews paid off.

Expect a subpoena for Trump’s testimony to a grand jury (even worse than a voluntary interview, because there isn’t a lawyer present). Or, I guess it’s possible that Mueller has enough evidence of obstruction of justice, based on what McGann has told him, or Flynn has told him. Or, What someone else has given them. And in that case, Trump wouldn’t have to testify- because they’ve got enough on him already.

Usually I feel bad for someone there they’re damned if they do, and damned if they don’t. But, clearly I don’t feel that way here- the president put himself in this situation with his words and actions. The guy has always been able to lie or sue his way out of trouble in the private sector. That won’t work here.
 
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wiede said:
Is it a lie if a person doesn’t truly know if what they said is the truth, or a lie?

I truly think he sometimes convinces himself of “alternate facts”. In other words, he says something enough, even though he knew it to be false in the beginning, that he actually believes the lie to be truth after time. Basically, he talked himself into the lie as being truth.

Plus, even if the above isn’t true, the guy is a habitual liar. He literally cannot tell the truth, and he even lies when there’s no reason to lie. Trump being deposed by Mueller’s Team would be a nightmare for Trump.

And, a perjury trap isn’t a perjury trap- if you’re telling the truth. It is a problem- when you are a habitual liar. Like Trump. But again, even then it’s not a perjury trap.

For example, Giuliani now claims that Trump and Comey never had the conversation re: “laying off Michael Flynn”. That’s batchit crazy (like MIchelle Bachman level crazy), because the president has already admitted that the conversation took place (remember the tweet saying where he insinuated there may be tapes?).

Trump and his lawyers will claim that testifying about this a perjury trap, because he’s basically screwed no matter what he says to Mueller’s team.

That’s a very twisted way to look at things. Remember, Giuliani basically said a few days ago that facts aren’t facts- they are open to interpretation. Which is also insane.

It’s pretty obvious that Giuliani has convinced him it’s a bad idea to go to a voluntary interview with Mueller’s team. I guess all the crazy @ss media interviews paid off.

Expect a subpoena for Trump’s testimony to a grand jury (even worse than a voluntary interview, because there isn’t a lawyer present). Or, I guess it’s possible that Mueller has enough evidence of obstruction of justice, based on what McGann has told him, or Flynn has told him. Or, What someone else has given them. And in that case, Trump wouldn’t have to testify- because they’ve got enough on him already.

Usually I feel bad for someone there they’re damned if they do, and damned if they don’t. But, clearly I don’t feel that way here- the president put himself in this situation with his words and actions. The guy has always been able to lie or sue his way out of trouble in the private sector. That won’t work here.
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Trump also seems to think he isn't lying if he repeats, forwards or reposts someone else's lie, like Trump's statements about Ted Cruz's father. Also, Trump has given several statements that are diametrically opposed to each other, so at least one of them must be false.

A quick search found that there are several statutes that might apply if a witness is actually sworn in, but if Trump is merely interviewed by Mueller, I doubt that he will actually be sworn. A couple articles say the following statute applies to people who give unsworn statements to federal investigators:

18 USC 1001

(a)  Except as otherwise provided in this section, whoever, in any matter within the jurisdiction of the executive, legislative, or judicial branch of the Government of the United States, knowingly and willfully--

(1)  falsifies, conceals, or covers up by any trick, scheme, or device a material fact;

(2)  makes any materially false, fictitious, or fraudulent statement or representation;  or

(3)  makes or uses any false writing or document knowing the same to contain any materially false, fictitious, or fraudulent statement or entry;

shall be fined under this title, imprisoned not more than 5 years or, if the offense involves international or domestic terrorism (as defined in section 2331 ), imprisoned not more than 8 years, or both.  If the matter relates to an offense under chapter 109A, 109B, 110, or 117, or section 1591 , then the term of imprisonment imposed under this section shall be not more than 8 years.


Under this statute, it looks like intentionally giving statements that are merely evasive or confusing would be offenses so outright lies might not be necessary to violate. I think both Reagan and Clinton testified while in office, so I don't think Trump can avoid giving actual sworn testimony if Mueller pushes it.
 
Stuffshot said:
Trump also seems to think he isn't lying if he repeats, forwards or reposts someone else's lie, like Trump's statements about Ted Cruz's father. Also, Trump has given several statements that are diametrically opposed to each other, so at least one of them must be false.

A quick search found that there are several statutes that might apply if a witness is actually sworn in, but if Trump is merely interviewed by Mueller, I doubt that he will actually be sworn. A couple articles say the following statute applies to people who give unsworn statements to federal investigators:

18 USC 1001

(a)  Except as otherwise provided in this section, whoever, in any matter within the jurisdiction of the executive, legislative, or judicial branch of the Government of the United States, knowingly and willfully--

(1)  falsifies, conceals, or covers up by any trick, scheme, or device a material fact;

(2)  makes any materially false, fictitious, or fraudulent statement or representation;  or

(3)  makes or uses any false writing or document knowing the same to contain any materially false, fictitious, or fraudulent statement or entry;

shall be fined under this title, imprisoned not more than 5 years or, if the offense involves international or domestic terrorism (as defined in section 2331 ), imprisoned not more than 8 years, or both.  If the matter relates to an offense under chapter 109A, 109B, 110, or 117, or section 1591 , then the term of imprisonment imposed under this section shall be not more than 8 years.


Under this statute, it looks like intentionally giving statements that are merely evasive or confusing would be offenses so outright lies might not be necessary to violate. I think both Reagan and Clinton testified while in office, so I don't think Trump can avoid giving actual sworn testimony if Mueller pushes it.
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Is that one of the statutes applicable to felony charges against Hillary Clinton? There are a dozen or so more that would apply.
 
Ladoga said:
Is that one of the statutes applicable to felony charges against Hillary Clinton? There are a dozen or so more that would apply.
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Tell you what, we'll charge both with felonies, lock 'em up, and then throw the key away.

Deal?
 
wiede said:
Is it a lie if a person doesn’t truly know if what they said is the truth, or a lie?
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