The Stars and Bars

[NPT]

What will cause future generations to regard the Nazis more fondly? Or do you imagine people will have forgotten WWII 100 years from now?

No they won't remember it more fondly....they just won't remember at all(at least they they won't remember the details). Lots of people don't ever look at a history book or study history at all. Time has a way of changing how people look at things. I've seen surveys in the past that always really surprise me about what people know about things that I would think everyone should know about.

 

[NPT]

It's pretty irresponsible to boil this down to something as vague as "judging someone by their looks." There is a big difference between judging someone by the color of their skin (which they can't control) and judging someone by whether or not they choose to honor a symbol of hatred.

I would also politely rebuke you, NPT, for your comments to Rock. Those of us in this thread who have argued critically against the battle flag have given detailed, wordy explanations why. Those who have not have fallen back on platitudes like, "You can't tell me what I mean when I use a symbol" which are not only empty in their own right, but ignore the basic organizing principles of human communication.

Maybe someday a man in Berlin can proudly fly the swastika without being taken for a Nazi sympathizer. That day is not today. And if he's wrongly accused of being a Nazi sympathizer, it's his own fault, because he knows damn well what that symbol represents, just like we Americans know damn well what the battle flag represents.

The whole thing goat is that I believe that the meaning of symbols evolve and always will. I think what the confederate flag meant to people in 1900 and what it means to people today is different (of course there are some it means exactly the same thing). In the end though what you are trying to rebuke me for is not agreeing with you and Rock. I know exactly what you were saying....I just don't agree. BTW, Rock is the one that started the insulting...not me. In summary, people can think what they want about me. It's really doesn't matter to me what they think except for family and some close friends and they know what kind of person I am.

 

[Rockfish1]

No they won't remember it more fondly....they just won't remember at all(at least they they won't remember the details). Lots of people don't ever look at a history book or study history at all. Time has a way of changing how people look at things. I've seen surveys in the past that always really surprise me about what people know about things that I would think everyone should know about.

I hope you're wrong, but this thread suggests you may be right. The less that people know about the Civil War, for example, the more likely they are to imagine that the Confederate flag isn't hateful:

The killing of nine black churchgoers by a white gunman, Dylann Roof, in Charleston, S.C., sparked a nationwide debate over the Confederate battle emblem.

Some, including Gov. Nikki Haley (R), have argued that the flag should be removed from the Capitol grounds. The South Carolina Legislature followed suit, voting overwhelming to open debate on the removal of the flag. Others oppose its removal. For example, Mike Ryhal, a member of the South Carolina House, referencing “South Carolina history,” said, “I don’t think it should be removed.”

This debate is not new, nor limited to South Carolina. Much of the discussion revolves around the question of whether the flag represents “heritage or hatred” (see, for example, here, here, and here). Drawing on rare survey data on this subject, we can shed light on this question. We find that white Southerners who support the Confederate flag are actually less knowledgeable about Southern history; no stronger in their attachments to fellow Southerners (after racial attitudes are taken into account); less tolerant of interracial dating; and more likely to deny that blacks are discriminated against in the labor market.

. . . The argument that respect for Southern heritage drives white support for the Confederate flag might lead one to think that flag supporters would be more knowledgeable about Southern history. We found exactly the opposite: whites with more knowledge about Civil War history are actually less supportive of the state flag prominently featuring the Confederate battle emblem:

. . . In contrast, attitudes toward blacks were strongly associated with support for the Confederate flag. Among those whites who say they would object if their child dated someone of a different race, preference for the Confederate battle emblem is a full 20 percentage points higher than it is among those whites who would not object:

 

[NPT]

For what it's worth I don't think any government entity should ever fly the flag for any reason except maybe for history purposes. Rock, I hope I am wrong to but I think it's already too late. People just don't study history and I'm not sure it's even taught much in school (don't know that for sure). BTW thanks for that diagram above...I had looked for something like that for a couple minutes before I got a "honey do" job.

 

[CO. Hoosier]

CO, at what point did you slip into devil's advocate here? You are a lawyer, law is rich with symbols. You stand when a judge enters a courtroom, why? I bet you always wear a suit to trials, why? Your legal argument would be precisely as valid in shorts and Hawaiian shirt. But you believe the suit conveys something more, further, you believe others believe that.

I was thinking about clothes as symbols a couple weeks ago at Cedar Point. Virtually everyone wore shirts with logos. I find it funny we pay Nike money to wear a billboard for Nike. So I thought about this in line a lot. The guy wearing Titleist obviously likes what he believes that says about him.

But a guy wearing a Ferrari shirt, Ferrari pants, and Ferrari driving gloves may well do so because he wants to be thought of as one who demands quality. Yet he would have to be intentionally obtuse not to know a lot of people are going to think he is a pretentious prick.

I an a geek, and IT is filled with geeks. I never wear my geek t-shirts to work or church. I certainly would never interview in them. But at a gaming or sci-fi con that is what I wear. It isn't because I believe I am less capable wearing a Firefly shirt. I recognize people that need my help may have that belief.

So how is the rebel battle flag any different? People who fly it/wear it have to know that perception exists. And some of the people I know who are into their southern heritage wear/display it for that reason. They want that discussion.

Culture assigns meaning to symbols. If you had a client accused of violating civil rights, would you encourage him not to get his swastika tattoo just before trial? Even If he were Navajo I believe you would stress to him how bad of an idea that is.

Not sure I understand your point . . . . .

I acknowledge that some see slavery when they see the Confederate battle flag. I don't dispute that. I also know many display the flag and are not racists or in favor of, as Biden would say, "putting ya'all back in chains". Most of my discussion in this thread has centered on a couple of things, first, symbolism is a poor example of clarity, and secondly, those who criticize the flag who think they are doing something important as far as racism is concerned are lightweights. I think many of those kinds of people, a few of whom have been active in this thread, would rather make noise than make a difference.

But yeah, culture is full of symbols and customs and law is no different. Those take the form of certain words and phrases, as well as certain decorum and respect when in court or dealing with people.

 

[Rockfish1]

BTW, Rock is the one that started the insulting...not me. In summary, people can think what they want about me. It's really doesn't matter to me what they think except for family and some close friends and they know what kind of person I am.

Strictly speaking, I didn't insult you. Instead, I correctly stated that your post illustrated the logical fallacy of invincible ignorance, which in fact it did. Compare this:

invincible ignorance -- the fallacy of insisting on the legitimacy of one's position in the face of contradictory facts. Statements like "I really don't care what the experts say; no one is going to convince me that I'm wrong"; "nothing you say is going to change my mind"; "yeah, okay, whatever!" are examples of this fallacy.
​

To what you posted:

If I was that guy I'd really be concerned about what some law professor thought about my ancestors.
​

Your post perfectly illustrated the logical fallacy of invincible ignorance. That doesn't make you a bad person. People commit logical fallacies all the time. But it does mean that I correctly characterized your post. (By the way, did you note that "some law professor" was a black man who said he disrespected the caller's white Southern ancestors because if they'd won he'd be a slave, rather than a law professor? Your sneering response didn't seem to account for this.)

​

 

[TheOriginalHappyGoat]

The whole thing goat is that I believe that the meaning of symbols evolve and always will. I think what the confederate flag meant to people in 1900 and what it means to people today is different (of course there are some it means exactly the same thing). In the end though what you are trying to rebuke me for is not agreeing with you and Rock. I know exactly what you were saying....I just don't agree. BTW, Rock is the one that started the insulting...not me. In summary, people can think what they want about me. It's really doesn't matter to me what they think except for family and some close friends and they know what kind of person I am.

The problem with this is that it hasn't evolved. It's true that some people display the flag who aren't racist, but as I have repeatedly stated, the speaker doesn't have a monopoly on meaning. People who see the flag think it has a hateful meaning, and therefore it does. And that meaning is rooted in history.

Meanings can change, yes, but they don't change instantly just because some people want them too. It takes time. An that time isn't here yet.

 

[Rockfish1]

I acknowledge that some see slavery when they see the Confederate battle flag.

I acknowledge that some might see an insult when they observe the following collection of symbols, all with no inherent meaning:

CO. Hoosier is posting like a nitwit.
​

While others, like Humpty Dumpty, might read those symbols as a recipe for gazpacho. Who can say what's really meant?

 

[CO. Hoosier]

I think I understand what you say.

North soldiers show respect south soldiers. Problem is, south soldiers not show respect black slaves. Three groups. North, south, slaves. North respect southern pride but not slavery.

Flag = slavery = southern pride.

How south "salute" black people? How south show respect black people? Flag /= salute. Flag = slavery. South must decide show respect. You say north and black people keep problem alive. No. Flag keep problem alive.

Flag = slavery = southern pride.

That's way too lazy and useless as an intellectual exercise, Henri.

You want something to equal slavery? Go to any large Southern city and stand on the auction block in a slave market. I've done that a couple of times and I feel physical effects. I've seen the slavery museum in Liverpool England which was the financial capital of African slave trade for centuries. I stood in the hold of the mocked up slave ships. (Actually not stood, that wasn't possible.) I felt the physical effects there to. When I first learned to look at books, I loved looking through my folk's Currier and Ives picture book. My first introduction slavery, at about 4 years old, was this print about branding human beings. I knew about that before I knew cowboys branded cattle. This stuff is slavery. Not a stupid flag. When I see that flag, I see the South, I see an area of the country. I see grits and music. If you think I am callous and insensitive i really don't care. But I have seen things and read things that bring slavery home to me, and it ain't a flag.

 

[TheOriginalHappyGoat]

I hope you're wrong, but this thread suggests you may be right. The less that people know about the Civil War, for example, the more likely they are to imagine that the Confederate flag isn't hateful:

The killing of nine black churchgoers by a white gunman, Dylann Roof, in Charleston, S.C., sparked a nationwide debate over the Confederate battle emblem.

Some, including Gov. Nikki Haley (R), have argued that the flag should be removed from the Capitol grounds. The South Carolina Legislature followed suit, voting overwhelming to open debate on the removal of the flag. Others oppose its removal. For example, Mike Ryhal, a member of the South Carolina House, referencing “South Carolina history,” said, “I don’t think it should be removed.”

This debate is not new, nor limited to South Carolina. Much of the discussion revolves around the question of whether the flag represents “heritage or hatred” (see, for example, here, here, and here). Drawing on rare survey data on this subject, we can shed light on this question. We find that white Southerners who support the Confederate flag are actually less knowledgeable about Southern history; no stronger in their attachments to fellow Southerners (after racial attitudes are taken into account); less tolerant of interracial dating; and more likely to deny that blacks are discriminated against in the labor market.

. . . The argument that respect for Southern heritage drives white support for the Confederate flag might lead one to think that flag supporters would be more knowledgeable about Southern history. We found exactly the opposite: whites with more knowledge about Civil War history are actually less supportive of the state flag prominently featuring the Confederate battle emblem:

. . . In contrast, attitudes toward blacks were strongly associated with support for the Confederate flag. Among those whites who say they would object if their child dated someone of a different race, preference for the Confederate battle emblem is a full 20 percentage points higher than it is among those whites who would not object:

Those poll results are telling, and directly contradict what others in this thread have tried to claim (without providing evidence of their own).

I've been arguing that the flag is a negative symbol simply because of the negative connotations held by those who view it, completely irrespective of the negative feelings of those who fly it. But those numbers suggest that an argument against the flag based on the attitudes of those who fly it is equally compelling.

 

[Rockfish1]

Those poll results are telling, and directly contradict what others in this thread have tried to claim (without providing evidence of their own).

I've been arguing that the flag is a negative symbol simply because of the negative connotations held by those who view it, completely irrespective of the negative feelings of those who fly it. But those numbers suggest that an argument against the flag based on the attitudes of those who fly it is equally compelling.

I purposely included the authors' conclusions, but since I haven't studied the issue carefully I'm reluctant to make their conclusions mine, because I try to avoid confirmation bias. For now I'll just leave it at this: people who don't know what they're talking about are disproportionately likely to say stupid stuff, as this thread illustrates.

 

[NPT]

The problem with this is that it hasn't evolved. It's true that some people display the flag who aren't racist, but as I have repeatedly stated, the speaker doesn't have a monopoly on meaning. People who see the flag think it has a hateful meaning, and therefore it does. And that meaning is rooted in history.

Meanings can change, yes, but they don't change instantly just because some people want them too. It takes time. An that time isn't here yet.

Sure it has evolved

The problem with this is that it hasn't evolved. It's true that some people display the flag who aren't racist, but as I have repeatedly stated, the speaker doesn't have a monopoly on meaning. People who see the flag think it has a hateful meaning, and therefore it does. And that meaning is rooted in history.

Meanings can change, yes, but they don't change instantly just because some people want them too. It takes time. An that time isn't here yet.

Sure it has evolved.....not to you maybe but there are lots of people out there that just see the confederate flag as someone being from the south whereas 100 years ago I'll bet that wouldn't be true. To them(100 years ago) it would symbolize the south BUT at the same time represent their views about blacks.

 

[HenriPasseur]

Flag = slavery = southern pride.

That's way too lazy and useless as an intellectual exercise, Henri.

I agree not slavery = flag. I not mean say that. I say flag = slavery. In math say 1 to 1 and onto if both direction. Yes, many more slavery symbols than flag. Flag is a basic symbol. Flag purpose to be symbol of group. US flag has 50 stars. Symbol of 50 states, right? Confederate flag symbol of confederation of slavery states. Civil war for end slavery or not.

Question for you. Stop confederate flag now to 2050. Southern pride stop too? Racism stop too?

 

[CO. Hoosier]

I agree not slavery = flag. I not mean say that. I say flag = slavery. In math say 1 to 1 and onto if both direction. Yes, many more slavery symbols than flag. Flag is a basic symbol. Flag purpose to be symbol of group. US flag has 50 stars. Symbol of 50 states, right? Confederate flag symbol of confederation of slavery states. Civil war for end slavery or not.

Question for you. Stop confederate flag now to 2050. Southern pride stop too? Racism stop too?

Nah

Racism and bigotry existed long before there was a confederate flag, and will exist if there were no flag. There is bigotry and slavery many parts of the world today and I am quite sure they don't dispaly the Stars and Bars.

 

[Rockport Zebra]

.I seems as if Nascars request to leave the Stars and Bars at home is a dismal failure. I must say this thread has demonstrated just how divisive the flag of the southern rebellion is to this day. The idea that people could care less that the flag is deeply offensive to many demonstrates a stubborn callousness. The essay that started this thread states, supporting the flag regardless of the reasoning places the supporter in alignment with the Klan. If you want to be judged as a supporter of hate fly the damn flag.

g.

 

[TheOriginalHappyGoat]

Sure it has evolved
Sure it has evolved.....not to you maybe but there are lots of people out there that just see the confederate flag as someone being from the south whereas 100 years ago I'll bet that wouldn't be true. To them(100 years ago) it would symbolize the south BUT at the same time represent their views about blacks.

All you have to do is TALK to people to know that isn't true. A lot of people still think the flag means racism and white supremacy. For good reason. It's there. You can't just ignore it. It's there. That's what it means to many people.

 

[NPT]

All you have to do is TALK to people to know that isn't true. A lot of people still think the flag means racism and white supremacy. For good reason. It's there. You can't just ignore it. It's there. That's what it means to many people.

No argument with that. However, there are also lots of people that the flag is just a flag and means someone is probably from the south and never thinks for a second that it has anything to do with racism. I've never said that it didn't represent racism to some people. All I've argued is that the percent of people that view it as a racist symbol is decreasing.

 

[CO. Hoosier]

No argument with that. However, there are also lots of people that the flag is just a flag and means someone is probably from the south and never thinks for a second that it has anything to do with racism. I've never said that it didn't represent racism to some people. All I've argued is that the percent of people that view it as a racist symbol is decreasing.

It's called original intent, N

We must honor the original intent of the 19th century racists about the "true" meaning of the flag. From looking at this thread, and digging down into some of the polls mentioned, it seems like "racism" is becoming a conditioned response to the flag. Many people in the South began to drift away from that notion. Dylann Roof's photo with the flag yanked them back to reality. Some things cannot change--ever.

 

[Noodle]

Having conclusively established that HenriPasseur is a troll, I will now stop talking to it, and I encourage everyone else to ignore it. Its references to "Boiler up" suggest that this troll comes from some Neanderthal Purdue board, and its stupid exploits here may amuse feeble minds there. Engage it there, if you wish to soil yourselves, but please deprive it of oxygen and let it die in your silent contempt here. Otherwise it will continue to soil this board with its execrable presence.

Just so the record is clear:
1. I have no idea who Henri Passeur is.
2. I have never engaged him in any meaningful way, as I knew from day one that he was a troll.
3. I have never seen him on any Purdue board.
4. His schtick would not survive on the Purdue board either.
5. I challenge Rock to a Neanderthal DNA contest--get your DNA sequenced at 23andme and let's see which one of us is more Neanderthal than the other.

 

[Marvin the Martian]

Since the topic I am about to bring up doesn't deserve its own discussion, I'll make it fit here.

So far the real truth about the flag controversy has remained hidden. It is to make Texans afraid to fly the flag as they attempt to defend themselves against the federal takeover next week as the feds unleash Jade Helm. Without the battle flag, morale among Texan resistance is certain to be lowered. Normally more than 1600 troops would be required to seize Texas, but WalMart has allied with the federal government. Those three closed WalMarts are easily worth 100,000 troops, each.

I am disappointed in the people of Tennessee. Here is a chance for a group of them to get together, pack up their guns and drive to Texas as the spiritual ancestors of Davy Crockett. They would be media superstars. A quick go fund me site to cover their costs would make a decent amount of money. How can an entire state let this opportunity go to waste?

 

[hoot1]

Battle flag sales will increase

Just like the sales of guns increase when there exists a threat to regulate the sale of them, I predict the demand for Confederate Battle Flags (CBF) will increase. So individuals and small dealers in specific locales can have a hay-day by selling these flags. This is especially true given that large box stores such as Wal-Mart are discontinuing the selling of CBF.

Even though you will never catch me with a gun or CFB, I rather secretly enjoy it when some individuals thumb their noses against mainstream trends.

 

[CO. Hoosier]

Battle flag sales will increase

So far the real truth about the flag controversy has remained hidden. It is to make Texans afraid to fly the flag as they attempt to defend themselves against the federal takeover next week as the feds unleash Jade Helm. Without the battle flag, morale among Texan resistance is certain to be lowered. Normally more than 1600 troops would be required to seize Texas, but WalMart has allied with the federal government. Those three closed WalMarts are easily worth 100,000 troops, each.

I am disappointed in the people of Tennessee. Here is a chance for a group of them to get together, pack up their guns and drive to Texas as the spiritual ancestors of Davy Crockett. They would be media superstars. A quick go fund me site to cover their costs would make a decent amount of money. How can an entire state let this opportunity go to waste?

Hm . . . . .

Actually Texas has six flags to choose from. Or now is there only 5?

 

[CO. Hoosier]

I rather secretly enjoy it when some individuals thumb their noses against mainstream trends.

Me too

Just don't try it on a free and open discussion forum, like the Water Cooler.

 

[Marvin the Martian]

Battle flag sales will increase

Just like the sales of guns increase when there exists a threat to regulate the sale of them, I predict the demand for Confederate Battle Flags (CBF) will increase. So individuals and small dealers in specific locales can have a hay-day by selling these flags. This is especially true given that large box stores such as Wal-Mart are discontinuing the selling of CBF.

Even though you will never catch me with a gun or CFB, I rather secretly enjoy it when some individuals thumb their noses against mainstream trends.

On a lot of things, I would agree. As long as people who buy the CFB are aware that some people will attach a stigma to it, more power to them if they want to fly it. But I draw the line at antivaxxers. That's a mainstream trend we need, it isn't a question of symbolism.

 

[hoot1]

I am one of those guys who cares about what people think of me. I am also one of those guys who would rather know what symbols mean to the other guy, than show off symbols for fear people will draw the wrong conclusions about me.

I don't get too upset these days about most things. However, I become very frustrated when people make judgement calls about me which aren't accurate.

Having said that, I actually admire people who speak their minds. Unfortunately many of these same people aren't always diplomatic and they bring problems down upon themselves because they are often misunderstood or even just wrong.

So in summary. symbols can be misleading and give people the wrong impression. Better to put symbols aside so that others can get to know you without jumping to the wrong conclusion. If you let symbols represent you, you may be rather shallow.

 

[TheOriginalHappyGoat]

No argument with that. However, there are also lots of people that the flag is just a flag and means someone is probably from the south and never thinks for a second that it has anything to do with racism. I've never said that it didn't represent racism to some people. All I've argued is that the percent of people that view it as a racist symbol is decreasing.

I don't agree, but even if you're right, so what? The day when you can fly the flag without racial baggage hasn't arrived yet.

 

[NPT]

I don't agree, but even if you're right, so what? The day when you can fly the flag without racial baggage hasn't arrived yet.

Oh that day will never arrive because there are too many people that want to keep it at the forefront.

 

[hoosboot]

Oh that day will never arrive because there are too many people that want to keep it at the forefront.

Why is that a bad thing? Why is being able to fly the Confederate flag without racial baggage a good thing? Are you as seemingly hopeful of Germans being able to fly the Nazi flag without anti-Semitic baggage?

FWIW, I think that people should fly whatever flags they want and deal with the reactions they get for the symbolism associated with those choices. I don't think anyone should try to make it illegal to fly the Confederate flag by any stretch of the imagination. My concern lies in opposing states flying the flag in official capacities in a place of honor. IMHO, the day where the Confederate Flag doesn't have racial baggage is a bad day because it means we're forgetting what that war was about.

 

[TheOriginalHappyGoat]

Why is that a bad thing? Why is being able to fly the Confederate flag without racial baggage a good thing? Are you as seemingly hopeful of Germans being able to fly the Nazi flag without anti-Semitic baggage?

FWIW, I think that people should fly whatever flags they want and deal with the reactions they get for the symbolism associated with those choices. I don't think anyone should try to make it illegal to fly the Confederate flag by any stretch of the imagination. My concern lies in opposing states flying the flag in official capacities in a place of honor. IMHO, the day where the Confederate Flag doesn't have racial baggage is a bad day because it means we're forgetting what that war was about.

Those are good points, and it's worth pointing our that no one is suggesting the flying of any flag should be illegal. But people who make the choice to display certain symbols rightfully do open themselves up to criticism.

 

[Rockport Zebra]

No they won't remember it more fondly....they just won't remember at all(at least they they won't remember the details). Lots of people don't ever look at a history book or study history at all. Time has a way of changing how people look at things. I've seen surveys in the past that always really surprise me about what people know about things that I would think everyone should know about.

That gets me into trouble a lot. I assume everyone knows that, to my dismay you have to spell it out. The flag is offensive to people so don't fly it. It isn't like it is offensive to a fringe group of nuts but it is offensive to a large portion of our population.

 

[CO. Hoosier]

Why is that a bad thing? Why is being able to fly the Confederate flag without racial baggage a good thing? Are you as seemingly hopeful of Germans being able to fly the Nazi flag without anti-Semitic baggage?

FWIW, I think that people should fly whatever flags they want and deal with the reactions they get for the symbolism associated with those choices. I don't think anyone should try to make it illegal to fly the Confederate flag by any stretch of the imagination. My concern lies in opposing states flying the flag in official capacities in a place of honor. IMHO, the day where the Confederate Flag doesn't have racial baggage is a bad day because it means we're forgetting what that war was about.

The Germans made the Nazi flag

and other Nazi and Hitler paraphernalia illegal shortly after the war. The Swastika is taboo throughout Europe and the western world. Yet European anti semitism is rampant and getting worse. Banning or otherwise discouraging symbols of hate make all the nonhaters feel better, but little else is accomplished.

 

[Marvin the Martian]

The Germans made the Nazi flag

and other Nazi and Hitler paraphernalia illegal shortly after the war. The Swastika is taboo throughout Europe and the western world. Yet European anti semitism is rampant and getting worse. Banning or otherwise discouraging symbols of hate make all the nonhaters feel better, but little else is accomplished.

Is there not more at play here? I would think holocaust survivors are quite content to not routinely pass nazi party flags. Does that not matter?

 

[Rockport Zebra]

Maybe someone hasn't seen this. Explore.

 

[CO. Hoosier]

Is there not more at play here? I would think holocaust survivors are quite content to not routinely pass nazi party flags. Does that not matter?

Yes it matters

and I think social aesthetics are important for some purposes and for some groups. But to think that banning certain symbols will help eliminate the underlying hate that gave rise to those symbols is a mistake.

 

[Marvin the Martian]

Yes it matters

and I think social aesthetics are important for some purposes and for some groups. But to think that banning certain symbols will help eliminate the underlying hate that gave rise to those symbols is a mistake.

I would agree that eliminating the Nazi symbols does little to combat racism. That said, it was the right thing for Germany to do. I always find it interesting a lot of wargame I play are illegal in Europe. Many use the dual lightning bolt graphic to denote SS or use a Nazi flag.

 

[Rockport Zebra]

t

Yes it matters

and I think social aesthetics are important for some purposes and for some groups. But to think that banning certain symbols will help eliminate the underlying hate that gave rise to those symbols is a mistake.

It should be banned because they were wrong and they lost. When I was in the 2nd ACR in Germany the Nazis would paste propaganda in the city square at night and the police would take it down in the morning. Every morning.

 

[CO. Hoosier]

t
It should be banned because they were wrong and they lost. When I was in the 2nd ACR in Germany the Nazis would paste propaganda in the city square at night and the police would take it down in the morning. Every morning.

There is more to it than that

King George III was pretty ruthless the way he treated the colonies and we revolted. A few years later the Brits burned the White House, Capitol Building and more. The Union Jack is not banned.

 

[Rockport Zebra]

There is more to it than that

King George III was pretty ruthless the way he treated the colonies and we revolted. A few years later the Brits burned the White House, Capitol Building and more. The Union Jack is not banned.

I don't give a damn for no Kings or Queens. I am from the Lower Ohio and Wabash Valley.

 

[CO. Hoosier]

I don't give a damn for no Kings or Queens. I am from the Lower Ohio and Wabash Valley.

I guess you don't play chess.

 

[CO. Hoosier]

I would agree that eliminating the Nazi symbols does little to combat racism. That said, it was the right thing for Germany to do. I always find it interesting a lot of wargame I play are illegal in Europe. Many use the dual lightning bolt graphic to denote SS or use a Nazi flag.

I have a hand painted bronze civil war chess set.

A Stars and Bars flag is painted on 2 pieces; the queen and a flag bearer pawn. I wonder if such things will continue to be available.