The Secrecy on Injuries

Rotonda Jim

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Sep 3, 2003
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Like a lot of us who do not pay extra for the premium boards, I have no idea how bad of an injury Mike Penix has or even if he has a real injury. Having said that, I am not objecting to the no comment answer that we get about that from the coaches. I get it totally. What I wonder is if you who pay the extra money really get information that we do not get and second, what is going to happen when Vegas demands that all injury information must be released to set up the betting lines in a fair way.
 
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JIMSHAM

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Like a lot of us who do not pay extra for the premium boards, I have no idea how bad of an injury Mike Penix has or even if he has a real injury. Having said that, I am not objecting to the no comment answer that we get about that from the coaches. I get it totally. What I wonder is if you who pay the extra money really get information that we do not get and second, what is going to happen when Vegas demands that all injury information must be released to set up the betting lines in a fair way.
No
 

hurryin76hoosier

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Nov 3, 2002
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Like a lot of us who do not pay extra for the premium boards, I have no idea how bad of an injury Mike Penix has or even if he has a real injury. Having said that, I am not objecting to the no comment answer that we get about that from the coaches. I get it totally. What I wonder is if you who pay the extra money really get information that we do not get and second, what is going to happen when Vegas demands that all injury information must be released to set up the betting lines in a fair way.
Premium membership does not give you special access to the coaching staff's knowledge of injuries.
 

td75

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Vegas has no bearing on Indiana releasing injury reports. I've never heard of Vegas being able to prompt a university to release this information.
 

Davehack

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Sep 24, 2001
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Like a lot of us who do not pay extra for the premium boards, I have no idea how bad of an injury Mike Penix has or even if he has a real injury. Having said that, I am not objecting to the no comment answer that we get about that from the coaches. I get it totally. What I wonder is if you who pay the extra money really get information that we do not get and second, what is going to happen when Vegas demands that all injury information must be released to set up the betting lines in a fair way.
Setting up betting lines in a fair way which are engineered so the house has the advantage?
 
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Courtsensetwo

Hall of Famer
Oct 16, 2004
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Like a lot of us who do not pay extra for the premium boards, I have no idea how bad of an injury Mike Penix has or even if he has a real injury. Having said that, I am not objecting to the no comment answer that we get about that from the coaches. I get it totally. What I wonder is if you who pay the extra money really get information that we do not get and second, what is going to happen when Vegas demands that all injury information must be released to set up the betting lines in a fair way.
What you really get on Premium are articles and less trolls.
 
Sep 4, 2018
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Like a lot of us who do not pay extra for the premium boards, I have no idea how bad of an injury Mike Penix has or even if he has a real injury. Having said that, I am not objecting to the no comment answer that we get about that from the coaches. I get it totally. What I wonder is if you who pay the extra money really get information that we do not get and second, what is going to happen when Vegas demands that all injury information must be released to set up the betting lines in a fair way.
I don’t get it all. I think it’s borderline criminal. They practically own the Indy Star.
 
Jan 14, 2005
2,142
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Like a lot of us who do not pay extra for the premium boards, I have no idea how bad of an injury Mike Penix has or even if he has a real injury. Having said that, I am not objecting to the no comment answer that we get about that from the coaches. I get it totally. What I wonder is if you who pay the extra money really get information that we do not get and second, what is going to happen when Vegas demands that all injury information must be released to set up the betting lines in a fair way.
When Vegas demands full info on Injuries before they will take action, IU will tell Vegas to eat a dick because they aren't going to violate federal law to appease William Hill.

If Vegas takes IU off the board, so what.
 
Oct 12, 2013
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When Vegas demands full info on Injuries before they will take action, IU will tell Vegas to eat a dick because they aren't going to violate federal law to appease William Hill.

If Vegas takes IU off the board, so what.
AFAIK the NCAA is not getting any cut off of sports betting so I would say it's at your own risk as far as injuries.
 

Rotonda Jim

Recruit
Sep 3, 2003
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I guess my main point is that Vegas has got the NFL to release injury reports and I am wondering if they will also force or ask the NCAA to do the same? It seems like that is coming down the pike and it should. But yes, I understand the policy of the secrecy but how can you accurately place bets if you do not know who is going to play. And like it or not, many folks bet and bet a lot.
 
Jan 14, 2005
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I guess my main point is that Vegas has got the NFL to release injury reports and I am wondering if they will also force or ask the NCAA to do the same? It seems like that is coming down the pike and it should. But yes, I understand the policy of the secrecy but how can you accurately place bets if you do not know who is going to play. And like it or not, many folks bet and bet a lot.
You can't accurately place bets, but that doesn't bother Vegas. All Vegas wants is even money on both sides of the bet so they can collect the vig.
 

Tokyo Steve

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JohnnyOscar on the premium board has by far been the most credible source I’ve read. He gave a play-by-play of what transpired on the IU bench directly in front of him when Penix got checked by the medical staff. In summary he thinks it could be a right shoulder separation but wouldn’t be all that surprised if it turned out to be a broken collarbone
 

IUCol

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Nov 11, 2017
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Allen's comment yesterday about Penix confirms exactly what I said was his issue all summer...he is too skinny to hold up...he aint got the meat on the bones for the job. (202 lbs my ass...maybe dressed and soaking wet) Why Ramsey is not made the starter right now and Penix come in and play often I do not know except to say is more for Penix mental state that practical application. I love Penix...he aint ready for the full-time job. Look how Ramsey got up over and over after getting pounded. Penix cannot do that...period. Maybe after a summer of weight addition...per Allen...he might hold up...but PSU will KILL him. What happened last season? He should be protected for the future with a better o-line...imo
 
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So why do we know about other teams injuries. Sindlear concussion, McFarland foot as examples.
If the info came from the school then both the injured player and the school had to agree to release the information. If the player says no then the info stops there, if the player agrees and the school/coach have a release policy then it's made public. I find it funny that people think they have a right to know about a players injuries just because they happen to play a sport that people follow.
 

secondasky

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Sep 8, 2013
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If the info came from the school then both the injured player and the school had to agree to release the information. If the player says no then the info stops there, if the player agrees and the school/coach have a release policy then it's made public. I find it funny that people think they have a right to know about a players injuries just because they happen to play a sport that people follow.
There doesn't seem to be any consistency on reporting/not reporting injuries. I was just trying to get a handle on how it operates. Don't believe I ever said it was a right to know. I do however understand fans desire to know why players are injured. Especially when you give $$ to a school, graduated from there or played there. I thought I read somewhere where the B10 or NCAA were considering an injury report similar to the NFL but it was tabled this year.
 
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On another thread, they said Vegas sets odds to increase bets. Not really predicting winners. Does anyone know about gambling, odds, etc?
This is correct--at least with regard to legal sports betting. The purpose of the spread is to attempt to entice an equal amount of betting on both sides of a game. The house collects a fee, called the vigorice, (or vig for short) on each bet. The winners get their vig back, but the losers don't.

So...if the house takes 100K in bets and it splits evenly, so that it goes 50K in bets on Nebraska and 50K in bets on Indiana, and collects 10K in vigorice, then the house can't lose. They just pay the winning bets to the Indiana bettors with the money from the losing bets from the Nebraska bettors, give the winners their vig back and keep the losers vig.

The only way this business model fails is if too many bets come in on one side, and those bets go on to win. In that case, the loser money and their vig doesn't cover the winners payouts.

That's why lines change during the week. During the week before the Nebraska game, there was apparently a lot of money coming in betting Nebraska as an underdog at home against Indiana. So, they started moving the line, eventually making Nebraska a favorite to attempt to entice people to bet Indiana and even the money out.

I don't know if it managed to entice IU bets or not, but either way the house won, because all that money that came in on Nebraska early on ended up losing anyway.
 

IUCol

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This is correct--at least with regard to legal sports betting. The purpose of the spread is to attempt to entice an equal amount of betting on both sides of a game. The house collects a fee, called the vigorice, (or vig for short) on each bet. The winners get their vig back, but the losers don't.

So...if the house takes 100K in bets and it splits evenly, so that it goes 50K in bets on Nebraska and 50K in bets on Indiana, and collects 10K in vigorice, then the house can't lose. They just pay the winning bets to the Indiana bettors with the money from the losing bets from the Nebraska bettors, give the winners their vig back and keep the losers vig.

The only way this business model fails is if too many bets come in on one side, and those bets go on to win. In that case, the loser money and their vig doesn't cover the winners payouts.

That's why lines change during the week. During the week before the Nebraska game, there was apparently a lot of money coming in betting Nebraska as an underdog at home against Indiana. So, they started moving the line, eventually making Nebraska a favorite to attempt to entice people to bet Indiana and even the money out.

I don't know if it managed to entice IU bets or not, but either way the house won, because all that money that came in on Nebraska early on ended up losing anyway.
Gambling is for losers...nothing more...suckers...
 
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lndyResident16

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Sep 2, 2019
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This is correct--at least with regard to legal sports betting. The purpose of the spread is to attempt to entice an equal amount of betting on both sides of a game. The house collects a fee, called the vigorice, (or vig for short) on each bet. The winners get their vig back, but the losers don't.

So...if the house takes 100K in bets and it splits evenly, so that it goes 50K in bets on Nebraska and 50K in bets on Indiana, and collects 10K in vigorice, then the house can't lose. They just pay the winning bets to the Indiana bettors with the money from the losing bets from the Nebraska bettors, give the winners their vig back and keep the losers vig.

The only way this business model fails is if too many bets come in on one side, and those bets go on to win. In that case, the loser money and their vig doesn't cover the winners payouts.

That's why lines change during the week. During the week before the Nebraska game, there was apparently a lot of money coming in betting Nebraska as an underdog at home against Indiana. So, they started moving the line, eventually making Nebraska a favorite to attempt to entice people to bet Indiana and even the money out.

I don't know if it managed to entice IU bets or not, but either way the house won, because all that money that came in on Nebraska early on ended up losing anyway.
“Vigorish”.
 
May 11, 2010
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There doesn't seem to be any consistency on reporting/not reporting injuries. I was just trying to get a handle on how it operates. Don't believe I ever said it was a right to know. I do however understand fans desire to know why players are injured. Especially when you give $$ to a school, graduated from there or played there. I thought I read somewhere where the B10 or NCAA were considering an injury report similar to the NFL but it was tabled this year.
I wasn't saying you thought you had a right to know about injuries, just fans in general. The B10 or the NCAA can override the school portion of what I described but the player would still have the initial control over his/her health info. If they player says no releasing their health info that's the end of the conversation.
 
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iubud

Hall of Famer
Aug 7, 2003
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Allen's comment yesterday about Penix confirms exactly what I said was his issue all summer...he is too skinny to hold up...he aint got the meat on the bones for the job. (202 lbs my ass...maybe dressed and soaking wet) Why Ramsey is not made the starter right now and Penix come in and play often I do not know except to say is more for Penix mental state that practical application. I love Penix...he aint ready for the full-time job. Look how Ramsey got up over and over after getting pounded. Penix cannot do that...period. Maybe after a summer of weight addition...per Allen...he might hold up...but PSU will KILL him. What happened last season? He should be protected for the future with a better o-line...imo
That is not correct. I have seen this posted before and you need to look at a model of the human body without the skin. More weight would not help his knee last year or a shoulder issue and head this year. How would an extra 15 pounds have helped?

Think of these injuries as a mechanical failure of bones and/or ligaments. More muscle and fat do not strengthen a ligament. The ligament is often the weak link. I could make a better case that more weight would put more stress on those joints.

Extra muscle or fat would not have prevented my bone snapping when I landed on the outside of my shoulder. My collar bone flexed too much and broke nearly in the center. Something had to give. More weight would have made it break easier.

My knee injury was from a blow that bent my leg in the wrong direction. Weight and speed of the person hitting me was more important than a bigger upper body or more leg strength. If I had legs like an elephant, maybe he would have bounced off of me.

Ankles, knees, shoulders and your head don't care if you are 210 or 225. 100 pounds of fat might help with helmet contact to the ribs or with the hit Ramsey took to the chest. Most long term sports injuries, other than blows to the head, aren't at the point of contact but at the nearest joint/weakest bone or in another area from falling awkwardly.
 
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Gambling is for losers...nothing more...suckers...
Depends on how you're gambling.

If you've taken me for a sports-bettor and this was meant as an insult, you've missed your mark. I don't bet on sporting events I'm not participating in.
 
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Jssanto

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Feb 15, 2019
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This is correct--at least with regard to legal sports betting. The purpose of the spread is to attempt to entice an equal amount of betting on both sides of a game. The house collects a fee, called the vigorice, (or vig for short) on each bet. The winners get their vig back, but the losers don't.

So...if the house takes 100K in bets and it splits evenly, so that it goes 50K in bets on Nebraska and 50K in bets on Indiana, and collects 10K in vigorice, then the house can't lose. They just pay the winning bets to the Indiana bettors with the money from the losing bets from the Nebraska bettors, give the winners their vig back and keep the losers vig.

The only way this business model fails is if too many bets come in on one side, and those bets go on to win. In that case, the loser money and their vig doesn't cover the winners payouts.

That's why lines change during the week. During the week before the Nebraska game, there was apparently a lot of money coming in betting Nebraska as an underdog at home against Indiana. So, they started moving the line, eventually making Nebraska a favorite to attempt to entice people to bet Indiana and even the money out.

I don't know if it managed to entice IU bets or not, but either way the house won, because all that money that came in on Nebraska early on ended up losing anyway.
Wow thanks. I am still trying to understand how this works. I always thought that Vegas/Mafia/bookies etc really tried hard for inside info. Maybe it is only about the math.
 
Jan 14, 2005
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Wow thanks. I am still trying to understand how this works. I always thought that Vegas/Mafia/bookies etc really tried hard for inside info. Maybe it is only about the math.
More info, whether you are a bettor or the house, is helpful when you're trying to win a bet. But a sportsbook, a legit one, isn't trying to win those "spread" bets. They're just trying to create action on both sides. Of course, they probably do make a little money, because they understand gambling better than the average fan.
 
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gulcherboy

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If the info came from the school then both the injured player and the school had to agree to release the information. If the player says no then the info stops there, if the player agrees and the school/coach have a release policy then it's made public. I find it funny that people think they have a right to know about a players injuries just because they happen to play a sport that people follow.
Well, that does make them public figures and many rules are different once you become a public figure. I'm pretty sure HIPPA is NOT one of those that changes, but, really, we are just one court case away from changing that.
 

oldcougar77

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Well, that does make them public figures and many rules are different once you become a public figure. I'm pretty sure HIPPA is NOT one of those that changes, but, really, we are just one court case away from changing that.
It's HIPAA, and not as long as the 4th amendment is still a thing. I can't imagine that any court in the country, no matter how conservative or how liberal, would ever rule that a third party has a right to release information on a person's health to the general public.

As has been stated, a person can give consent but the third party cannot release without that specific consent. My take on it - and I think I recall reading it elsewhere- is that IU's athletic department and the university at large does not request the information from the individual as a matter of policy.
 

abraxis

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It's HIPAA, and not as long as the 4th amendment is still a thing. I can't imagine that any court in the country, no matter how conservative or how liberal, would ever rule that a third party has a right to release information on a person's health to the general public.

As has been stated, a person can give consent but the third party cannot release without that specific consent. My take on it - and I think I recall reading it elsewhere- is that IU's athletic department and the university at large does not request the information from the individual as a matter of policy.
If the university doesn’t request it as matter of policy, I’m surprised news organizations through their reporters don’t request and receive the injury update more often from parents, just as a courtesy to Hoosier Nation, if no one else.
 

gulcherboy

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It's HIPAA, and not as long as the 4th amendment is still a thing. I can't imagine that any court in the country, no matter how conservative or how liberal, would ever rule that a third party has a right to release information on a person's health to the general public.

As has been stated, a person can give consent but the third party cannot release without that specific consent. My take on it - and I think I recall reading it elsewhere- is that IU's athletic department and the university at large does not request the information from the individual as a matter of policy.
I expect that you are right. I was thinking about this matter proceduraly and not as a practical legal matter.
To be honest, I have a hard time arguing the legal basis for the HIPAA law, except that it has been used to deny me access to my own medical records ... But, that's an entirely different matter.
 

oldcougar77

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If the university doesn’t request it as matter of policy, I’m surprised news organizations through their reporters don’t request and receive the injury update more often from parents, just as a courtesy to Hoosier Nation, if no one else.
If the athlete is at least 18 years old, even the parents can't release it without the consent of the player. If the parents are the carriers of the policy, they are entitled to the information, but can't provide it to anyone else.
 

lndyResident16

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Sep 2, 2019
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If the athlete is at least 18 years old, even the parents can't release it without the consent of the player. If the parents are the carriers of the policy, they are entitled to the information, but can't provide it to anyone else.
The parents aren’t a party to any policy of insurance for the player as it relates to university sponsored athletics. IU and every other P5 school, as well as virtually every D1 school that fields intercollegiate sports teams, carries insurance covering the medical expenses related to athletic injuries. The players control their medical information, however, and only they can choose whether it is released to any party.
 

oldcougar77

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The parents aren’t a party to any policy of insurance for the player as it relates to university sponsored athletics. IU and every other P5 school, as well as virtually every D1 school that fields intercollegiate sports teams, carries insurance covering the medical expenses related to athletic injuries. The players control their medical information, however, and only they can choose whether it is released to any party.
Correct - unless the family chooses to reject the coverage in favor of its own policy. Given that the coverage on the athlete is provided free of charge by the university, there is no logical reason to do that.
 

Courtsensetwo

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Correct - unless the family chooses to reject the coverage in favor of its own policy. Given that the coverage on the athlete is provided free of charge by the university, there is no logical reason to do that.
That depends upon the policy and it's restrictions on providers.
 

lndyResident16

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Correct - unless the family chooses to reject the coverage in favor of its own policy. Given that the coverage on the athlete is provided free of charge by the university, there is no logical reason to do that.
NCAA policies are nearly always first dollar coverages as well, so no deductible or co-pay obligations exist for the player or his family. Catastrophic protection sponsored by the NCAA also sits excess of primary coverage.