The Queen

Discussion in 'The Water Cooler' started by TheOriginalHappyGoat, Apr 6, 2020.

  1. Daydreamer

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    We support other countries because it helps keep US safe and prosperous. If we don’t provide military and financial support to our allies, who do think they will turn to?
     
  2. UncleMark

    UncleMark Hall of Famer
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    Who do you think buys all the Treasuries we issue?
     
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  3. TDHoosier

    TDHoosier All-American
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    I get that, but who needs who more? It seems to me our "allies" might need our military support for their safety. Believe me I get it is a give and take, I just think the US is in the drivers seat all instances when it comes to trade off and safety.

    FWIW I don't think some out Allies would turn to anyone, it would be more a forced situation and they definitely don't want that hence they lien on the US. That being said the original post was we are the "laughing stock" of the world which I find to really not be true.
     
  4. TDHoosier

    TDHoosier All-American
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    I guess its like buying a good stock? I wonder if we buy debentures from Great Britain? I honestly do not know so it is a legit question.
     
  5. IUJIM

    IUJIM Moderator
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    Suckers!!
     
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  6. mashnut

    mashnut Freshman
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    The reason that large portions of the world have been slowly shifting to look more like the US over the last 50 years is because we have had a long line of politicians and diplomats who understood that alliances and aid allow you to put soft steady pressure on allies and ally-adjacent countries in a way that is a lot less contentious and works better in the long run than threats and blunt demands. The new tack of focusing only on the US and ignoring those relationships has already led to large chunks of the world turning to China, Russia, and Europe for that leadership instead of us. Two out of the three on that list worry me for how they'll influence the growth and development of places like Southeast Asia and Africa.

    I think you could very easily make the case that the stability and peace that our leadership has helped to foster (under both D and R leadership) has directly helped US citizens and businesses much more than the amount spent. Now you and many think we should throw away that bipartisan long-term plan for the ramblings and ravings of a failed businessman. I think that hurts us a lot in the long run, I hope I'm wrong.
     
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  7. Cream&Crimson

    Cream&Crimson All-Big Ten
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    87 Cream&Crimson, Apr 12, 2020
    Last edited: Apr 12, 2020
  8. twenty02

    twenty02 Hall of Famer
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    The US hyperpower situation comes from a powerful, double edged sword. Economic and military. 70% of the world's economy operates using the US$ as it's peg. It's basically the axis on which the world rotates, economically.

    The military footprint across the globe reinforces that. The economy and the military might play off each other, and work together. That 5% of the world's population has the sway that it does on the globe is an amazing phenomenon.

    You either take our carrot or risk our stick. We are a generally compassionate people, so we offer big, fat carrots to keep everything humming along. But push comes to shove, the stick is pretty damn big.
     
  9. sglowrider

    sglowrider Hall of Famer
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    I am starting to think this approach is being mooted. As countries develop and can afford to spend, there is already less of an dependency on the largesse of the US, whether it be political, economic or military protection.

    I have seen the difference in the past few years. There is a general turn-off by the behaviour of someone who they think is just not very smart, certain immature and unbecoming of a person that holds the highest office of a respected country. The US just doesn't dominate the news or cultural awareness as much as they used to. As they say in marketing, when you are not top of mind, then its a major concern.

    Like most things it's multifactorial.

    The macro numbers indicate that things may not change immediately. But I think within our lifetime and that of your kids, there will be at least a duopoly. China only by default due to the size of the country -- personally I think they will hit a glass ceiling if not now at least in the next decade unless things change.
    I see India if they get their act together -- and that's a big IF will dominate economically or at least be part of the tri-factor. The people are much smarter than the Chinese. But lack cohesion and discipline at the moment.
     
  10. twenty02

    twenty02 Hall of Famer
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    There will likely be a decline of American hyperpower going forward, on the margin. That's inevitable. I don't think US influence will expand, that's basically impossible. China will be the counterweight..... only nation with the size to have any individual influence.

    There was a period of time when I was coming of age where it was thought the EU could be a powerful influence. That's failed terribly, as the reality is non - homogeneous cultures will never possibly rally around one flag. Americans like to joke about New Yorkers being different than folks from Alabama...... but they are worlds closer to each other than the Dutch are to the Italians.
     
  11. sglowrider

    sglowrider Hall of Famer
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    I have my doubts about China unless something fundamentally changes it will hit a glass ceiling.
     
  12. twenty02

    twenty02 Hall of Famer
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    They aren't a fundamentally open, free society..... so they will continue to struggle beyond just being a labor hub.

    Open and independent thought is the key to dynamic and quickly adaptable economies. People complained a lot about global responses to the GFC of 2008. But the US reallocated its labor force much faster than most of ther world in its aftermath. And why US markets performed much better then most other developed economies over the last decade.
     
  13. sglowrider

    sglowrider Hall of Famer
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    I think the level of deep/basic science is beginning to develop in China.

    The question is always a political one. Is an open, free society the way forward? If you look at the deep divisions of the US society, isn't that usually an indicator of the edge of something of a downward slide?

    I also question whether the US is actually a ''open, free'' society or its value? You have a president who has been recorded to lie in public 16,000+ times and at last count. And yet there are no consequences. There is a lot to unpack there.
    Is it free in the sense that what you say has consequences or free in that you can say whatever you like and get aware within it?

    Like most things political, its been boiled down into binary platitudes.

    Whats free and open would be questioned by someone like an IGW -- who would say that it's controlled by an oligopoly. Fox/MSNBC have their respective views, shaping their various audiences. So how free is that?

    Just like the argument over socialism versus capitalism when its really about shades of grey but its been boiled down into simplistic discussions for political expediency. The fact that the term 'socialism' has been so stigmatised in the US that its an insult if not something life-threatening. How free is that?

    No. I don't think its the political platform that enables the US to prosper -- the Chinese have the fastest growing number of billionaires, millionaires and middle class in the world despite their perceived informational controls. Anyway, the US doesn't have a monopoly of the concept of an open and free society and yet some thrive whilst others falter.

    Its something more fundamental than that.

    Its globalisation and the ability to travel freely from one country to another that is an enabler. I may have a fantastic idea but maybe not be so easy to develop in my country but now, I can go to Israel and get it funded there now. Then to sell it across the world from anywhere. But then our mythical IGW would say that's not the KPI of a fair and just society either.

    A free & open society that is controlled by a handful of people with ever-shrinking middle class -- or in my opinion has been served platitudes, shaped by the media to keep the middle class ever more subservient in the hope of chasing that American Dream.

    After this pandemic is in our rearview mirror, we need to be asking what is it we want from society?
     
    93 sglowrider, Apr 12, 2020
    Last edited: Apr 12, 2020
  14. 76-1

    76-1 All-American
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    They ever find that billionaire Chinese businessman who called the Premier a dumbs--?

    How many pieces did they find?

    How about that female eye doctor who tried to alert the medical community about COVID19, have they found her yet??

    I'll stick with our version of a free and open society thank you...
     
  15. sglowrider

    sglowrider Hall of Famer
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    Point is there are many versions. Its not the free & open society perception that is the reason why the US is the dominant economic power. Look at the technologies that the US has provided to the world -- and how many were invented by people who didn't grow up in a free & open society? From Google to Tesla to Warby Parker.
    • Immigrants are “almost twice as likely” as native-born Americans to become entrepreneurs.
    • 55% of all American billion dollar start-ups were founded by non-native Americans.
    They never grew up in a 'free & open' society or at least not the American variety. It goes beyond political jingoism.
     
  16. Daydreamer

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    So why didn’t those people create those technologies in their home countries? They grew up in less than free societies but came to America to do great things. You’re tying yourself up in knots trying to show that America isn’t that great but admit here that America is where people come to be creative, innovative, and successful.
     
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  17. sglowrider

    sglowrider Hall of Famer
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    If you can step away from being so defensive -- Where and what I am getting at is, that they come over here to the universities. Without these foreign talent ie students there will not be the people to start these innovations. Your suburbs Americans rarely step into this educational stratosphere.
    Why? Student loans? Education and inquisitiveness aren't high on the totem pole, want to earn quick bucks etc.

    My brother in law manages PhD. candidates at Columbia in neuro-computing. How many of his student do you think are foreign? Almost 90% consistently if not 100% in some batches.

    These are the people who build, drive innovations from deep science/basic research to engineering innovations for the country.

    What sets American startups apart, than say others around the world who have tried to replicate the Silicone Valley ecosystem is culture. There is a gung-honess for simply trying in the Bay area which you just don't get elsewhere. You are not heavily penalised for failure as much as other continents, even in Europe.

    It's not about political jingoism -- America is great, #1 etc. If people are serious about wanting to maintain that position, they need to look at what got you there in the first place. Not some bullshitty throwaway political jingo.

    I have worked at three global leading companies in their industry. I find the #2 or #3s are infinitely more fun because you are honest with yourself and know where you need to get to. The #1s companies are sad places for fighters/builders like me.

    You are surrounded by people who rah-rah themselves as though they have taken credit for the company's global dominance when the reality is that the founding batch, a few generations ago -- they were the ones to have put us in that position. We are only riding off their coat-tails. They shout we are #1 -- arrogant and aren't paranoid about losing the company's position/dominance.
    I was never one to fool myself or needing that jingoistic favour to help my self-esteem.

    You project that out into a country and you know what I am getting at. Afterall corporations are people too.
     
  18. Daydreamer

    Daydreamer Moderator
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    I’m not the one who is defensive. You’re pretty hung up on what white trash who won’t ever accomplish anything or have any impact on the world think and say. I’m not.
    You’ve admitted a couple times now that America is the primary place where people come to do great things. There isn’t anything wrong with being proud of that fact. I freely recognize that the greatness of America is in its diversity. The best of the rest of the world are welcome to come here and make our country even greater as far as I’m concerned.
     
  19. iuwclurker

    iuwclurker All-Big Ten
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    Who put a cluster brain fvk in your wheeties this morning?
     
  20. iuwclurker

    iuwclurker All-Big Ten
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    US universities are one of the United States greatest assets and have been for sometime. The US is still the safest haven for intellectuals and geniuses but there’s no doubt that the concept of freedom has traveled throughout the world. So people who are extremely intelligent can grow up anywhere in the world and have a chance of maximizing their potential. But in the end, if the whole world turns tyrannical, United States is likely to be the last one to fall into that mode of suppression.
     

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