The oversign...

[TheVegasHoosier]

Only thing he has said was that he will not always use up all 13 scholarships but he never said it would be every year.

I find that hard to believe because he's already breaking it this year and for '19, we have one ride open but several 5 stars who really like us.....so he's definitely going to do it then too.

My guess is he does every single year.......which I really don't have a problem with if it doesn't hurt morale. My only problem is we were told he didn't and that is just untrue and now we're going to go thru this over-sign/commit crap every single year again.

 

[IU Scott]

Also another thing about people who are worried about playing time is that I think Archie will red shirt unlike Crean. Just say we get both Garland and Romeo which means one would leave to get to 13 scholarship players. If this is the case I could see Forrester and maybe Phinessee redshirting next year and that would leave 11 active players on the roster. If we get both of these players I could see Durham or Jones leaving sue to lack of playing time.

 

[tynd10]

Also another thing about people who are worried about playing time is that I think Archie will red shirt unlike Crean. Just say we get both Garland and Romeo which means one would leave to get to 13 scholarship players. If this is the case I could see Forrester and maybe Phinessee redshirting next year and that would leave 11 active players on the roster. If we get both of these players I could see Durham or Jones leaving sue to lack of playing time.

I believe either Durham transfers, or Phinisee decommits. Cujo would still be Romeo's backup and the likely starter in 2019.

 

[klize17]

Why worry about oversigning when Romeo is planning on signing in the spring? Roster attrition will have already had happened

 

[blue-et-blanc]

I cannot believe we live in a world now where we just assume not just one but TWO 5* players are going to commit this year.

IF this comes to pass, lets be happy... this is definitely a "blue-blood" problem.

 

[Tony20]

Why worry about oversigning when Romeo is planning on signing in the spring? Roster attrition will have already had happened

Because certain posters wouldn't have anything to complain about. As it stands Romeo won't make a decision for 6 months yet according to some Archie has already kicked someone off the team.

 

[dbmhoosier]

If we land Garland I'd bet the farm that Durham or Greene transfers. No one would want to be the #4 PG.

 

[TheVegasHoosier]

Because certain posters wouldn't have anything to complain about. As it stands Romeo won't make a decision for 6 months yet according to some Archie has already kicked someone off the team.

He may not wait as it sounds like he and Garland may be a package deal.

 

[kkott]

We've been told he plays all 4.

But that's not what I said, so you're being disingenous. I've never heard that, and can't imagine who would have said that, except for maybe his Dad from the stories I've read. But you wouldn't intentionally misinterpret things to make a point, right?

 

[RBB89]

I find that hard to believe because he's already breaking it this year and for '19, we have one ride open but several 5 stars who really like us.....so he's definitely going to do it then too.

My guess is he does every single year.......which I really don't have a problem with if it doesn't hurt morale. My only problem is we were told he didn't and that is just untrue and now we're going to go thru this over-sign/commit crap every single year again.

How the hell does using all your available scholarships affect morale?

 

[RBB89]

We've been told he plays all 4.

Your reading comprehension skills are mind-boggling. When saying "spans 4 positions," they don't mean all of those guys can play four separate positions. They mean that between all of those guys, they all do different things. Forrester and Thompson will play the 4–5. A couple others are pure 3s. Some can play the 3–4. Some could play the 2-3. How do you not get this?

 

[TheVegasHoosier]

How the hell does using all your available scholarships affect morale?

I already told you, Elmer.

 

[IDontWannaLargeFarva]

I think Vegas is trolling us....

 

[Stuffshot]

no you won't, nor will any of the other, "just win" crowd that thinks over signing is ok, as long as it's only "this many", not "that many".

fact is, someone is ok with it or they're not, and the "oks" are usually ok with other things the "not oks" usually aren't ok with..

if IU already had 20 schollies claimed and were looking at 10 more signs, you'd claim you have no problem with that, as long as they don't already have 30 committed while looking at another 30.

then when 17 guys suddenly out of the blue announce they're transferring before the start of school, you'll see it as that 30 being pared down to 13 somehow just "worked itself out" again, just as you knew it would.

no doubt some self congrats will also be in order for you, for correctly predicting again that it would "all work itself out".

on a side note, i also get a big kick out of the "it's ok to kick kids off the team, if they were recruited by a previous coach" gang.

wtf is that twisted self serving logic about?

Is the following what you're saying?



Mad Max Bust a Deal Face the Wheel

Well, (or "so"), the thing to remember is that the athlete and school commit only one year at a time (IU's athlete bill of rights is a little different). The athletes you may be trying to protect have no reasonable expectation longer than one year.

 

[rikki-tikka-tava]

Well, (or "so"), the thing to remember is that the athlete and school commit only one year at a time (IU's athlete bill of rights is a little different). The athletes you may be trying to protect have no reasonable expectation longer than one year.

Without reprising the hysteria that prompted your post, am I to understand that you're stating IU's NCAA hoops scholarships are for one year only with a mutual option to renew? Apologies if I misunderstand, but always assumed that a scholarship was guaranteed for four years (extreme circumstances/behaviors and/or breach of "contract" thus and such notwithstanding...

 

[jimmygoiu]

Without reprising the hysteria that prompted your post, am I to understand that you're stating IU's NCAA hoops scholarships are for one year only with a mutual option to renew? Apologies if I misunderstand, but always assumed that a scholarship was guaranteed for four years (extreme circumstances/behaviors and/or breach of "contract" thus and such notwithstanding...

Athletic Scholarships are year to year. IU took another "student first" initiative and guarantees four years scholarship or graduation, whichever comes first. The Athletic Scholarship is year to year. Most schools, including the Broilees, have no 4 year scholarship guarantees. When players "have the talk" with Painter and leave pu, they are on their own. Nine players left pu in Painter's first two years.

 

[rikki-tikka-tava]

Athletic Scholarships are year to year. IU took another "student first" initiative and guarantees four years scholarship or graduation, whichever comes first. The Athletic Scholarship is year to year. Most schools, including the Broilees, have no 4 year scholarship guarantees. When players "have the talk" with Painter and leave pu, they are on their own. Nine players left pu in Painter's first two years.

You're saying four years is for "academic" scholarships only? Otherwise it's a contradiction the way I read it.

And I could not possibly care less about anything having to do with that so very sad excuse for a "campus" up north at W. Lafayette.

 

[IDontWannaLargeFarva]

You're saying four years is for "academic" scholarships only? Otherwise it's a contradiction the way I read it.

And I could not possibly care less about anything having to do with that so very sad excuse for a "campus" up north at W. Lafayette.

Athletic scholarships have to be renewed each year.

That said, I'm not sure if I can think of a case where one hasn't been renewed simply for the purpose of trimming down an over signed, roster. A player will usually see the writing on the wall and transfer before that happens. At least in big time CFB or CBB.

It's more frequent in non-revenue sports as they don't always have the funding to guarantee the ability to renew year after year.

 

[i'vegotwinners]

schollies are 1 yr contracts.

after that yr, one side can opt out of the situation condition free, while the other side "effectively" has to sit out a yr before entering another one.

said contracts were never negotiated, but rather dictated with no other options by one side, who literally practiced the very definition of collusion in doing so.

make the contract equally fair for both sides, and see how quickly the "just win, to heck with the the kid and his family" crowd, changes their tune.

 

[i'vegotwinners]

Athletic scholarships have to be renewed each year.

That said, I'm not sure if I can think of a case where one hasn't been renewed simply for the purpose of trimming down an over signed, roster.

of course you can't. never happened in history.

it always just magically "works itself out".

LMAO.

 

[jimmygoiu]

You're saying four years is for "academic" scholarships only? Otherwise it's a contradiction the way I read it.

And I could not possibly care less about anything having to do with that so very sad excuse for a "campus" up north at W. Lafayette.

When IU signs a bball player to a scholarship, it is year to year. One year guaranteed. If the IU coaching staff feels that the player is not working out, they do not have to renew the scholarship for the next year. The player has the option of transferring, or that player could elect to stay at IU on full scholarship for 4 years or until graduating , whichever comes first. The player is not on an athletic scholarship, and CANNOT play basketball for IU. I pointed out the pu situation, especially the nine transfers in PorkChop's first two years as the Broilee coach, so that those knuckleheads don't start another crusade of stupidity against Archie. (choptalk )

 

[jimmygoiu]

schollies are 1 yr contracts.

after that yr, one side can opt out of the situation condition free, while the other side "effectively" has to sit out a yr before entering another one.

said contracts were never negotiated, but rather dictated with no other options by one side, who literally practiced the very definition of collusion in doing so.

make the contract equally fair for both sides, and see how quickly the "just win, to heck with the the kid and his family" crowd, changes their tune.

If coach and player mutually agree that a transfer is in the best interest of the player and the university, then by all means the player should be immediately eligible at his new school. Emphasis is on "Both Coach AND Player".

 

[IDontWannaLargeFarva]

of course you can't. never happened in history.

it always just magically "works itself out".

LMAO.

Don't appreciate you purposely cutting off the 2nd sentence of my paragraph to try and bastardize what I'm saying. It's a low integrity, snake move.

Obviously players get squeezed out. I didn't deny that. All I'm saying is I can't think of a time where a player didn't find a landing spot, before push coming to shove and that player being forced off the team with nowhere to go.

It would be a self destructive decision, just to try an prove a point.

Even as messy as the whole Gelon situation was, State Fair is still paying all his tuition and in the end it was technically "his choice" and IU granted the release.

 

[T.M.P.]

Emphasis is on "Both Coach AND Player".

I think that's a really good idea. They should only sit out when the school they are transferring from disagrees with their transfer. Those players who are pushed out by their coach shouldn't be punished for it.

 

[i'vegotwinners]

Don't appreciate you purposely cutting off the 2nd sentence of my paragraph to try and bastardize what I'm saying. It's a low integrity, snake move.

Obviously players get squeezed out. I didn't deny that. All I'm saying is I can't think of a time where a player didn't find a landing spot, before push coming to shove and that player being forced off the team with nowhere to go.

It would be a self destructive decision, just to try an prove a point.

Even as messy as the whole Gelon situation was, State Fair is still paying all his tuition and in the end it was technically "his choice" and IU granted the release.

you're implying i quoted you out of context, which i'll contend i absolutely didn't.

the part i left out in no way qualified or expounded upon the very specific statement i quoted and responded to. nice try though.

as for your recent comment quoted above with your other total bs included,

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
" Obviously players get squeezed out. I didn't deny that".
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

you absolutely denied that, and you are doing nothing but trying to verbally dance around everything you say, the instant anyone calls you on your bs.

and btw, are you now saying that if GG hadn't gotten an offer from State Fair, that IU would have kept him on the team, because you're certainly implying that.

this crappola you're selling that this was GG's choice, and that it's ALWAYS the player's choice, is beyond absurd.

please think first before responding... you're making a complete fool of yourself trying to dance around your own statements.

 

[rikki-tikka-tava]

When IU signs a bball player to a scholarship, it is year to year. One year guaranteed. If the IU coaching staff feels that the player is not working out, they do not have to renew the scholarship for the next year. The player has the option of transferring, or that player could elect to stay at IU on full scholarship for 4 years or until graduating , whichever comes first. The player is not on an athletic scholarship, and CANNOT play basketball for IU. I pointed out the pu situation, especially the nine transfers in PorkChop's first two years as the Broilee coach, so that those knuckleheads don't start another crusade of stupidity against Archie. (choptalk )

So if a student loses his/her athletic scholarship they are still entitled to the remainder of a four-year academic scholarship if they don't want to transfer? Also, at that point, does the athletic scholarship that was not renewed no longer count as part of the school's quota per NCAA limits?

Not trying to be obtuse, just to understand, do appreciate your indulgence. Thanks.

 

[IDontWannaLargeFarva]

you're implying i quoted you out of context, which i'll contend i absolutely didn't.

the part i left out in no way qualified or expounded upon the very specific statement i quoted and responded to. nice try though.

as for your recent comment quoted above with your other total bs included,

------------------------------------------------------------
" Obviously players get squeezed out. I didn't deny that".
------------------------------------------------------------

you absolutely denied that, and you are doing nothing but trying to verbally dance around everything you say, the instant anyone calls you on your bs.

and btw, you are now saying that if GG hadn't gotten an offer from State Fair, that IU would have kept him on the team, because you're certainly implying that.

this crappola you're selling that this was GG's choice, and that it's ALWAYS the player's choice, is beyond absurd.

please think first before responding... you're making a complete fool of yourself trying to dance around you own statements.

No IU wouldn't have kept Gelon on the team, sorry if you felt I implied that. But I'm not sure how you could've as I said it would've been "self destructive" for him to remain.

Please read below, you'll find 4 quotes from me in this very thread where I reference players getting forced out. Try and keep up.

Defectors(whether shown the door or leaving on their own) are a major part of every top program. I've never seen it this hotly debated before. Especially when it hasn't even happened yet.

Any number of things could happen to make room for Garland, Romeo or other top players. Using Archie's signing of Forrester as a platform on which to prematurely rant about roster management seems like a non sequitur to me.

So say what you mean then. Is Archie an unethical person for forcing out Gelon? If you believe he is then go find a new program too root for. I wouldn't want you to sacrifice your morals by rooting for a shady coach. We're not UK amiright?

But if you're gonna stay and root for IU, then quit complaining about something that is commonplace and necessary.

No it's not. And Archie would have a hard time justifying that decision to Fred if it caused him to lose games. That is his job after all, to win games.

These scholarships are renewed every year. They don't come with a guarantee that you can stay here if the team is trying to improve and you're low man on the totem pole.

You want stability? Say no to the scholarship and be a regular student.

You think Gelon being forced out tarnished IU?

 

[Stuffshot]

Without reprising the hysteria that prompted your post, am I to understand that you're stating IU's NCAA hoops scholarships are for one year only with a mutual option to renew? Apologies if I misunderstand, but always assumed that a scholarship was guaranteed for four years (extreme circumstances/behaviors and/or breach of "contract" thus and such notwithstanding...

Wow. This is really pretty basic. The one-year-at-a-time scholarship system has been around for about 3-4 years (maybe more). I hope there aren't too many others who post here who haven't kept up on the rules before posting their opinions. I've seen your handle a lot, but yet you didn't know this basic point. Just wow.

 

[IUgradman]

So if a student loses his/her athletic scholarship they are still entitled to the remainder of a four-year academic scholarship if they don't want to transfer? Also, at that point, does the athletic scholarship that was not renewed no longer count as part of the school's quota per NCAA limits?

Not trying to be obtuse, just to understand, do appreciate your indulgence. Thanks.

The answer to your first question is yes. Grant could have stayed at IU and had his education paid for even though he would not have been on the team. Pretty sweet deal if you ask me.

 

[RBB89]

You're saying four years is for "academic" scholarships only? Otherwise it's a contradiction the way I read it.

And I could not possibly care less about anything having to do with that so very sad excuse for a "campus" up north at W. Lafayette.

schollies are 1 yr contracts.

after that yr, one side can opt out of the situation condition free, while the other side "effectively" has to sit out a yr before entering another one.

said contracts were never negotiated, but rather dictated with no other options by one side, who literally practiced the very definition of collusion in doing so.

make the contract equally fair for both sides, and see how quickly the "just win, to heck with the the kid and his family" crowd, changes their tune.

If GG had stayed, he would not have been on the team, but he would've had a full scholarship guaranteed for the next three years. It's really hard for me to feel bad for him in that case.

 

[RBB89]

you're implying i quoted you out of context, which i'll contend i absolutely didn't.

the part i left out in no way qualified or expounded upon the very specific statement i quoted and responded to. nice try though.

as for your recent comment quoted above with your other total bs included,

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
" Obviously players get squeezed out. I didn't deny that".
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

you absolutely denied that, and you are doing nothing but trying to verbally dance around everything you say, the instant anyone calls you on your bs.

and btw, are you now saying that if GG hadn't gotten an offer from State Fair, that IU would have kept him on the team, because you're certainly implying that.

this crappola you're selling that this was GG's choice, and that it's ALWAYS the player's choice, is beyond absurd.

please think first before responding... you're making a complete fool of yourself trying to dance around your own statements.

If GG had stayed, he would not have been on the team, but he would've had a guaranteed full scholarship for the next three years as long as he kept his grades up/met the typical requirements.

 

[rikki-tikka-tava]

Wow. This is really pretty basic. The one-year-at-a-time scholarship system has been around for about 3-4 years (maybe more). I hope there aren't too many others who post here who haven't kept up on the rules before posting their opinions. I've seen your handle a lot, but yet you didn't know this basic point. Just wow.

Gracious. Overreact much or is it just another lonely and otherwise pointless Friday night for you? "Maybe more"?! You mean you don't know?! Simply scandalous, almost like someone "who haven't kept up on the rules before posting their opinions". And "Just wow"? Public breastfeeding and the LGBT community must really give you fits if that's all it takes to threaten your equanimity.

I always thought (correctly it would seem) that a scholarship was guaranteed for four years, and wasn't aware that "athletic" ones varied - only real difference seems to be that one doesn't get to stay on the "team" and am guessing the school gets to offer another in his/her stead.

 

[UncleMark]

I always thought (correctly it would seem) that a scholarship was guaranteed for four years, and wasn't aware that "athletic" ones varied - only real difference seems to be that one doesn't get to stay on the "team" and am guessing the school gets to offer another in his/her stead.

Athletic scholarships have been year to year for ages. (Academic scholarships vary widely as to their funding, who qualifies, and their terms.) I think the confusion about the options kids like Gelon had are exacerbated by saying they had a "scholarship" to finish. What they have is a paid for education by Indiana University, but they are completely divorced from the sport that originally brought them. This was put in place in part to take care of a kid who had a career ending injury, or who was "pushed" off the team ala Gelon. Calling it a "scholarship" just makes it too easy to get it mixed up with athletic grants-in-aid, and leads to questions about "does it count against the 13?" and the like.

 

[rikki-tikka-tava]

Athletic scholarships have been year to year for ages. (Academic scholarships vary widely as to their funding, who qualifies, and their terms.) I think the confusion about the options kids like Gelon had are exacerbated by saying they had a "scholarship" to finish. What they have is a paid for education by Indiana University, but they are completely divorced from the sport that originally brought them. This was put in place in part to take care of a kid who had a career ending injury, or who was "pushed" off the team ala Gelon. Calling it a "scholarship" just makes it too easy to get it mixed up with athletic grants-in-aid, and leads to questions about "does it count against the 13?" and the like.

Thanks. I misspoke, do realize that academic aid comes in all shapes and sizes, but did not understand that while an "offer" from a school to play basketball does indeed guarantee up to four years for education that the athletic aspect of that offer is conditional.

 

[UncleMark]

Thanks. I misspoke, do realize that academic aid comes in all shapes and sizes, but did not understand that while an "offer" from a school to play basketball does indeed guarantee up to four years for education that the athletic aspect of that offer is conditional.

At the risk of being pedantic, it's not the offer -- it's actually signing the LOI on the dotted line, being on the team, etc., and then for whatever reason beyond the kid's control not being offered a scholarship in subsequent years. That's when the Student Athlete Bill of Rights kicks in, and Fred Glass has made sure you have the opportunity to finish your education at IU at no cost. It's an IU policy, outside of the Department of Athletics, not NCAA or B1G. To the best of my knowledge we were the first to do this, and it makes me proud to be a Hoosier that we do.

 

[rikki-tikka-tava]

At the risk of being pedantic, it's not the offer -- it's actually signing the LOI on the dotted line, being on the team, etc., and then for whatever reason beyond the kid's control not being offered a scholarship in subsequent years. That's when the Student Athlete Bill of Rights kicks in, and Fred Glass has made sure you have the opportunity to finish your education at IU at no cost. It's an IU policy, outside of the Department of Athletics, not NCAA or B1G. To the best of my knowledge we were the first to do this, and it makes me proud to be a Hoosier that we do.

Had no idea. Mistakenly believed that an athletic scholarship basically guaranteed a full four-year ticket academically. Agree that it is very cool and entirely just that at least at IU this is the case. Thanks for taking the time to explain.

 

[IU Scott]

You're saying four years is for "academic" scholarships only? Otherwise it's a contradiction the way I read it.

And I could not possibly care less about anything having to do with that so very sad excuse for a "campus" up north at W. Lafayette.

The only thing that is guaranteed is that their school will be paid for but your place on the team is not guaranteed. This is mainly made for players who are injured and can't continue their career but there scholarship will be guaranteed.

 

[IDontWannaLargeFarva]

The only thing that is guaranteed is that their school will be paid for but your place on the team is not guaranteed. This is mainly made for players who are injured and can't continue their career but there scholarship will be guaranteed.

My name is Scott, and I reiterate things that have already been established.

 

[IU Scott]

My name is Scott, and I reiterate things that have already been established.

I have been gone all day and just goton this site a few minutes ago. I just responded to the post I first came to and had not read all the post in this thread so relax. I actually was in Bloomington for the whole day to visit my daughter at IU so forgive me for not spending my hole day on this message board.

 

[IDontWannaLargeFarva]

I have been gone all day and just goton this site a few minutes ago. I just responded to the post I first came to and had not read all the post in this thread so relax. I actually was in Bloomington for the whole day to visit my daughter at IU so forgive me for not spending my hole day on this message board.

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