The Devil You Know by Charles Blow

[MyTeamIsOnTheFloor]

Not sure if the book has been discussed here, but the issues/ideas have. @mcmurtry66

This book discusses black political power in the context of/in an overlay of growing up subject to white supremacy, a new black migration, the use of “accusation” and “white guilt” politics, etc.

CSPAN2 After Words has a great discussion between Blow and and Robert Woodson (a civil rights activist from the MLK era). I couldn't find it on YouTube and the BookTV.org copy wouldn't reproduce here as a link - so look it up you lazy so and so's. Watch it.

Near the end they discuss what Wodson called the “the message of defeatism clothed in militant opposition to whites” and the "industry of white guilt" - which they feel is prevalent and the wrong message. But, sadly, in the end, despite their differences, I fear they are both on a road of separatism.

It first prompted in me a realization that I do not and cannot understand what THEY mean when they say "white supremacy," but it is certainly different than the pop culture version we see these days. I have no frame of reference for it. My reaction was "I always knew stupid white people, stupid black people, smart white people and smart black people." So I cannot feel/understand/fathom/innate a belief that "white folks as a group are intellectually supreme as a group." And that was important in MY life since I came from generations of teachers. Same with physicality - to a 98-pound weakling, the strong, fast, athletic white guy and the strong, fast, athletic black are equal threats! Same with work ethic - although I knew many more PWT folks. Same with morality. Same with [fill in the blank]. But of course, they lived a different experience than me, and a different experience than each other.

I was most bothered by Mr. Woodson's lament that the MLK-era cvil rights victories "left behind the poor" on the grounds that the educated and professional blacks moved out of the black working-class neighborhoods. He argues they should have had a larger sense of altruism. I lament the separatism at the heart of that argument.

They - for example - also disagreed about (example) George Washington Carver. Woodson looked at him as a gaint, no exceptions. Blow looks at him as a giant who sold out to the idea of "accepting" white supremacy long enough to try and prove "we are worthy." He rejects that - he wants/deserves the whole ball of wax NOW - shouldn't have to put up with 400 years of "white supremacy" to begin with - done with trying to fix - wants to build black communities, maybe STATES. (Blames "white flight" for the conditions of major cities.) BUT ... he acknowledges he advocates from a safe 2020 Atlanta, whereas Woodson faced the very real threat of his own murder, beating, having his bus set on fire.

That prompted a question that to ME grows out of Blow and Woodson’s complaints that the “industry of white guilt” is a wrong and short-term path, and the modern practice of deeming (example) 75,000,000 people to be racists and white supremacists for the sole reason that they voted for Trump. (Note - both Blow and Woodson point out that more blacks, Hispanics and other minorities voted for Trump than ever before - and they attribute that black vote to fairly-conservative leanings among blacks.)

Anyway, if Michael Schwerner had been marginalized, subjected to the modern practice, deemed a white supremacist because he disagreed about something/anything promoted by SNCC or SCLC to any degree, or advised "any progress - no matter how slow - is still progress" rather than "full equality now" (a huge debate in those times) - would he have still fought for civil rights the way he did? Would he have been accepted if the WWF ("White Woke Folk") were in charge then?

Would the palpable and shift in national feeling about civil rights after the Mississippi murders and fire hoses/dogs, and the letter from Birmingham Jail, have been possible in today's environment? Or would the Civil Rights Act of 1964 and Voting Rights act of 1965 have been unattainable due to WWF thinking?




At the end of this morning, my lesson re-learned has been:

People are just people. When you start with race and labels, you never get past it. NEVER. You will always fail to consider a person a person. You will always view them as less.

 

[mcmurtry66]

Not sure if the book has been discussed here, but the issues/ideas have. @mcmurtry66

This book discusses black political power in the context of/in an overlay of growing up subject to white supremacy, a new black migration, the use of “accusation” and “white guilt” politics, etc.

CSPAN2 After Words has a great discussion between Blow and and Robert Woodson (a civil rights activist from the MLK era). I couldn't find it on YouTube and the BookTV.org copy wouldn't reproduce here as a link - so look it up you lazy so and so's. Watch it.

Near the end they discuss what Wodson called the “the message of defeatism clothed in militant opposition to whites” and the "industry of white guilt" - which they feel is prevalent and the wrong message. But, sadly, in the end, despite their differences, I fear they are both on a road of separatism.

It first prompted in me a realization that I do not and cannot understand what THEY mean when they say "white supremacy," but it is certainly different than the pop culture version we see these days. I have no frame of reference for it. My reaction was "I always knew stupid white people, stupid black people, smart white people and smart black people." So I cannot feel/understand/fathom/innate a belief that "white folks as a group are intellectually supreme as a group." And that was important in MY life since I came from generations of teachers. Same with physicality - to a 98-pound weakling, the strong, fast, athletic white guy and the strong, fast, athletic black are equal threats! Same with work ethic - although I knew many more PWT folks. Same with morality. Same with [fill in the blank]. But of course, they lived a different experience than me, and a different experience than each other.

I was most bothered by Mr. Woodson's lament that the MLK-era cvil rights victories "left behind the poor" on the grounds that the educated and professional blacks moved out of the black working-class neighborhoods. He argues they should have had a larger sense of altruism. I lament the separatism at the heart of that argument.

They - for example - also disagreed about (example) George Washington Carver. Woodson looked at him as a gaint, no exceptions. Blow looks at him as a giant who sold out to the idea of "accepting" white supremacy long enough to try and prove "we are worthy." He rejects that - he wants/deserves the whole ball of wax NOW - shouldn't have to put up with 400 years of "white supremacy" to begin with - done with trying to fix - wants to build black communities, maybe STATES. (Blames "white flight" for the conditions of major cities.) BUT ... he acknowledges he advocates from a safe 2020 Atlanta, whereas Woodson faced the very real threat of his own murder, beating, having his bus set on fire.

That prompted a question that to ME grows out of Blow and Woodson’s complaints that the “industry of white guilt” is a wrong and short-term path, and the modern practice of deeming (example) 75,000,000 people to be racists and white supremacists for the sole reason that they voted for Trump. (Note - both Blow and Woodson point out that more blacks, Hispanics and other minorities voted for Trump than ever before - and they attribute that black vote to fairly-conservative leanings among blacks.)

Anyway, if Michael Schwerner had been marginalized, subjected to the modern practice, deemed a white supremacist because he disagreed about something/anything promoted by SNCC or SCLC to any degree, or advised "any progress - no matter how slow - is still progress" rather than "full equality now" (a huge debate in those times) - would he have still fought for civil rights the way he did? Would he have been accepted if the WWF ("White Woke Folk") were in charge then?

Would the palpable and shift in national feeling about civil rights after the Mississippi murders and fire hoses/dogs, and the letter from Birmingham Jail, have been possible in today's environment? Or would the Civil Rights Act of 1964 and Voting Rights act of 1965 have been unattainable due to WWF thinking?




At the end of this morning, my lesson re-learned has been:

People are just people. When you start with race and labels, you never get past it. NEVER. You will always fail to consider a person a person. You will always view them as less.

Lots of interesting thoughts here. I’ll respond later when I have more time to give it proper consideration. Blow is the author of The NY Times article I posted about in another thread.

As an aside I was in grad school studying public admin and urban planning the year The Bell Curve was published. Made for interesting discussions.

 

[iuwclurker]

Not sure if the book has been discussed here, but the issues/ideas have. @mcmurtry66

This book discusses black political power in the context of/in an overlay of growing up subject to white supremacy, a new black migration, the use of “accusation” and “white guilt” politics, etc.

CSPAN2 After Words has a great discussion between Blow and and Robert Woodson (a civil rights activist from the MLK era). I couldn't find it on YouTube and the BookTV.org copy wouldn't reproduce here as a link - so look it up you lazy so and so's. Watch it.

Near the end they discuss what Wodson called the “the message of defeatism clothed in militant opposition to whites” and the "industry of white guilt" - which they feel is prevalent and the wrong message. But, sadly, in the end, despite their differences, I fear they are both on a road of separatism.

It first prompted in me a realization that I do not and cannot understand what THEY mean when they say "white supremacy," but it is certainly different than the pop culture version we see these days. I have no frame of reference for it. My reaction was "I always knew stupid white people, stupid black people, smart white people and smart black people." So I cannot feel/understand/fathom/innate a belief that "white folks as a group are intellectually supreme as a group." And that was important in MY life since I came from generations of teachers. Same with physicality - to a 98-pound weakling, the strong, fast, athletic white guy and the strong, fast, athletic black are equal threats! Same with work ethic - although I knew many more PWT folks. Same with morality. Same with [fill in the blank]. But of course, they lived a different experience than me, and a different experience than each other.

I was most bothered by Mr. Woodson's lament that the MLK-era cvil rights victories "left behind the poor" on the grounds that the educated and professional blacks moved out of the black working-class neighborhoods. He argues they should have had a larger sense of altruism. I lament the separatism at the heart of that argument.

They - for example - also disagreed about (example) George Washington Carver. Woodson looked at him as a gaint, no exceptions. Blow looks at him as a giant who sold out to the idea of "accepting" white supremacy long enough to try and prove "we are worthy." He rejects that - he wants/deserves the whole ball of wax NOW - shouldn't have to put up with 400 years of "white supremacy" to begin with - done with trying to fix - wants to build black communities, maybe STATES. (Blames "white flight" for the conditions of major cities.) BUT ... he acknowledges he advocates from a safe 2020 Atlanta, whereas Woodson faced the very real threat of his own murder, beating, having his bus set on fire.

That prompted a question that to ME grows out of Blow and Woodson’s complaints that the “industry of white guilt” is a wrong and short-term path, and the modern practice of deeming (example) 75,000,000 people to be racists and white supremacists for the sole reason that they voted for Trump. (Note - both Blow and Woodson point out that more blacks, Hispanics and other minorities voted for Trump than ever before - and they attribute that black vote to fairly-conservative leanings among blacks.)

Anyway, if Michael Schwerner had been marginalized, subjected to the modern practice, deemed a white supremacist because he disagreed about something/anything promoted by SNCC or SCLC to any degree, or advised "any progress - no matter how slow - is still progress" rather than "full equality now" (a huge debate in those times) - would he have still fought for civil rights the way he did? Would he have been accepted if the WWF ("White Woke Folk") were in charge then?

Would the palpable and shift in national feeling about civil rights after the Mississippi murders and fire hoses/dogs, and the letter from Birmingham Jail, have been possible in today's environment? Or would the Civil Rights Act of 1964 and Voting Rights act of 1965 have been unattainable due to WWF thinking?




At the end of this morning, my lesson re-learned has been:

People are just people. When you start with race and labels, you never get past it. NEVER. You will always fail to consider a person a person. You will always view them as less.

If one is to strive for an ideal scene, it has to be rooted in some semblance of reality. Proofs of concept can serve, for example, it’s well known in the fifties Indy had a thriving black community, so we know it’s possible here in the US. What about a separate community? Well, aren’t ghettos basically separate? What are they proof of? If mass migration made Georgia majority black, would the wealth and power correspond? Separatist notions aren’t grounded in reality or truth (we’re all in this together).

I agree we’re all individual humans and if you asked any articulate child, s/he wouldn’t want to be treated otherwise. The most empowering help is parents/guardians introducing infants to books (degree of literacy is arguably the most important factor in determine future success of individuals compared only to themselves), and inhibiting their exposure to narcotics and psychiatric drugs.

As for communities, that’s a policy issue and complicated. Take restitution. Again, what ideal scene are you trying to achieve? How will restitution lead you in that direction? Lump-sum payments are welcomed but will they change any underlying conditions? Lead toward a prosperous community?

 

[mcmurtry66]

MyTeamIsOnTheFloor said:
Not sure if the book has been discussed here, but the issues/ideas have. @mcmurtry66

This book discusses black political power in the context of/in an overlay of growing up subject to white supremacy, a new black migration, the use of “accusation” and “white guilt” politics, etc.

CSPAN2 After Words has a great discussion between Blow and and Robert Woodson (a civil rights activist from the MLK era). I couldn't find it on YouTube and the BookTV.org copy wouldn't reproduce here as a link - so look it up you lazy so and so's. Watch it.

Near the end they discuss what Wodson called the “the message of defeatism clothed in militant opposition to whites” and the "industry of white guilt" - which they feel is prevalent and the wrong message. But, sadly, in the end, despite their differences, I fear they are both on a road of separatism.

It first prompted in me a realization that I do not and cannot understand what THEY mean when they say "white supremacy," but it is certainly different than the pop culture version we see these days. I have no frame of reference for it. My reaction was "I always knew stupid white people, stupid black people, smart white people and smart black people." So I cannot feel/understand/fathom/innate a belief that "white folks as a group are intellectually supreme as a group." And that was important in MY life since I came from generations of teachers. Same with physicality - to a 98-pound weakling, the strong, fast, athletic white guy and the strong, fast, athletic black are equal threats! Same with work ethic - although I knew many more PWT folks. Same with morality. Same with [fill in the blank]. But of course, they lived a different experience than me, and a different experience than each other.

I was most bothered by Mr. Woodson's lament that the MLK-era cvil rights victories "left behind the poor" on the grounds that the educated and professional blacks moved out of the black working-class neighborhoods. He argues they should have had a larger sense of altruism. I lament the separatism at the heart of that argument.

They - for example - also disagreed about (example) George Washington Carver. Woodson looked at him as a gaint, no exceptions. Blow looks at him as a giant who sold out to the idea of "accepting" white supremacy long enough to try and prove "we are worthy." He rejects that - he wants/deserves the whole ball of wax NOW - shouldn't have to put up with 400 years of "white supremacy" to begin with - done with trying to fix - wants to build black communities, maybe STATES. (Blames "white flight" for the conditions of major cities.) BUT ... he acknowledges he advocates from a safe 2020 Atlanta, whereas Woodson faced the very real threat of his own murder, beating, having his bus set on fire.

That prompted a question that to ME grows out of Blow and Woodson’s complaints that the “industry of white guilt” is a wrong and short-term path, and the modern practice of deeming (example) 75,000,000 people to be racists and white supremacists for the sole reason that they voted for Trump. (Note - both Blow and Woodson point out that more blacks, Hispanics and other minorities voted for Trump than ever before - and they attribute that black vote to fairly-conservative leanings among blacks.)

Anyway, if Michael Schwerner had been marginalized, subjected to the modern practice, deemed a white supremacist because he disagreed about something/anything promoted by SNCC or SCLC to any degree, or advised "any progress - no matter how slow - is still progress" rather than "full equality now" (a huge debate in those times) - would he have still fought for civil rights the way he did? Would he have been accepted if the WWF ("White Woke Folk") were in charge then?

Would the palpable and shift in national feeling about civil rights after the Mississippi murders and fire hoses/dogs, and the letter from Birmingham Jail, have been possible in today's environment? Or would the Civil Rights Act of 1964 and Voting Rights act of 1965 have been unattainable due to WWF thinking?




At the end of this morning, my lesson re-learned has been:

People are just people. When you start with race and labels, you never get past it. NEVER. You will always fail to consider a person a person. You will always view them as less.
Click to expand...

This is a really interesting post MTIOTF and I'll reply generally not specifically. You and COH share many of the same thoughts/positions and before his absence (and during yours) we posted about some of this stuff during BLM protests this past summer. Anyway here's my take on race.

You closed with "People are just people" and while I certainly agree, our stations in life vary greatly. I was a democrat most of my life. And like some, the older I get the more I gravitate toward the right. My city has terrible racial issues and for the past 50 plus years has been governed by democrats, well-intentioned democrats, but their policies have been demonstrative failures decade after decade. A quintessential Stl lefty just made her way from protestor to Washington. She'll be every bit as bad. The issue I have with most Republicans is that they view life as a 400 meter race where we're all at the starting blocks together. In truth we may all be at the starting blocks together, but some have bad knees, some have a busted ankle, some were just born slow. As a people and a very wealthy nation I do believe it's incumbent upon us to elevate those people who are behind so they have equal OPPORTUNITY to succeed, not guaranteed inclusion as we're seeing with the Biden admin where race/sex "trump" merit, but guaranteed OPPORTUNITY from equal starting points to every extent that we can make possible.

So how do we get to equal starting points to ensure equal opportunity is the million dollar question. It's certainly not telling amazon to take their 25,000 jobs elsewhere, nor is it the democratic policies that govern most of the cities where crime is highest. Would republicans do any better? I don't know; I do believe they'd be tougher on crime and that'd help. But I also believe the drug war needs to end too. I'm not sure they'd agree with that sentiment and much of the crime is a byproduct of drugs. So like always, I'll leave my hope in the private sector, outfits like Goldman Sachs making a difference and wait for the next generation to get a bit older.

End patent racism
- This in my opinion is only a couple decades away. My ten year old daughter's best friend is a little black girl with a 70s afro. My kid doesn't see color. Spend time with little kids. They're all woke. None of them see color. The schools have done an excellent job in this respect. I truly believe Gen X will be the last generation of prevalent racism. I spend most my waking days with a ten year old woke parrot barking at me for what comes out of my mouth. My gen is a dying breed.

Accountability/Culture
- Many years ago I worked at United Way. I was assigned all the drug and alcohol agencies. One of mine was called BASIC - black, alcohol/drug, service, information, center. When I got to UW BASIC was on probation and on the verge of being kicked out of UW. No one gets kicked out of UW. It was a huge deal. So my first week I went and met with the ED, skinny black guy every bit of 6'8. I said to him "hey I know you've had your issues with UW but I'm new and here to help and as far as I'm concerned this is a clean slate. So I know there have been issues but why don't you tell me what you perceive to be the biggest issue." The man stood up over me and in the scariest face I've ever seen said "400 years of oppression." He was like Arthur Shelby when he told Alfie he's "Olddddddd Testament." I was like wtf. This 400 years of oppression is a reality but it's also a crutch and an excuse. The failures, the elevated crime rates, the kids born out of wedlock, need to be owned and the black community needs to be more accountable for same.
This is where BLM dropped the ball for me from their absurd marketing BLM-Silence = Violence to their misguided premise for protesting: police violence. Statistics show that blacks/unarmed blacks are not killed at a higher rate than whites by cops. I do believe and know racism exists within law enforcement (profiling) to the judicial system as it relates FTA's warrants, bonds, etc. and disparate impact of policies and practices. But perpetuating this defund the police/cops are bad bs is bs. If anything we need more cops in high crime areas. what's more, they later erased it from their website, but they had a bizarre take on nuclear families, as if you didn't need dad at home. You do.

Economics
- as a product of slavery and oppression blacks are hundreds of years late to the economic party. they've been deprived of the opportunity to benefit from generational wealth transfer. this must be remedied because in my humble opinion economics more than race define the plight of so many blacks. I worked at a place in the hood called Saint Louis Opportunity Clearinghouse, which is now The Employment Connection. We worked with troubled youth to get them GEDs and figure out a pathway to college. The biggest issue was mom had no money, dad was either in the pokey or mia, the electric was being shut off, and they didn't have wheels to get to GED training or anywhere else. So I'm talking to them about a standardized test and college - shit that if everything fell perfectly into place, and their substandard rudimentary education didn't prove too much of an obstacle, would lead to dough in six or so years. F that. They could go make $300 today pushing drugs. And they needed that money TODAY. Facing that dilemma is not equal opportunity. This needs to be addressed, somehow. And it's not scholarships to junior college. That doesn't pay the electric bill where they are staying. Many blacks are faced with instant gratification out of necessity. That's not equal opportunity.

- how to address economic imbalance. while blm dropped the ball on both what they were bitching about and how they were bitching, they did capture the attention of people/entities/businesses with money who are willing to donate/provide grants etc.: the nfl, goldman, and others. Goldman is providing funding for blacks to start businesses, to own real estate, etc. Ownership is critical. It's the difference between failed vertical projects and successful flat, resident- owned "projects" that are projects in name only.

Closing
- our woke children will do more to end overt racism than anything else. More insidious systemic racism can be erased by greater economic opportunity, by leveling what blacks bring to the starting blocks so they have the same opportunities as whites. I truly believe that economics and class play a far more prominent role than overt racism in the plight of blacks. This is coming through the efforts of Goldman Sachs and others. Finally blacks need to be accountable and own their disproportionate violent criminality and stop using the crutch of 400 years in that respect. More whites with money will be inclined to donate same to help if they do. And for all the old, white man is bad talk from woke culture, the reality is old, bad, white man controls most of the purse strings, for better or worse, and this ain't changing anytime soon.

Sorry for the disjointed, long response. And I hope we can elevate the stations of life of all sooner than later, as the cancel culture/media/social media MO will eliminate half our history and all of our ability to think for ourselves.