The Big Ten is canceling all non-conference football games this fall

[DANC]

Without wading into politics, again, I disagree with your assessment of the WWII era. First, lots of executive orders setting domestic policy. Quite frankly, executive orders are just more nimble than the legislative process in emergency situations. Secondly, the United States had a 0% percent chance of every being invaded or having its freedom threatened by the Axis. If there was a percentage less than 0, I'd go for it.

And to echo the parody of Oliver Hazard Perry's quote, "We have met the enemy, and it is us." For reasons that escape rational explanation, our entire domestic response to a global pandemic are being defined by two groups, "Orange Man Bad" and "Orange Fan Mad." It's inexplicable and disastrous.

In hindsight, it's easy to say now that our chances of being invaded during WWII or having our freedom threatened had a 0% of happening.

However,, that is not historically accurate. Nazi subs operated off our Atlantic seaboard prior to the start, and during, WWII. Shipping was disrupted and, in fact, channel islands were created along the Atlantic and the Gulf of Mexico to allow safe shipping, with the ability to stop enemy subs from penetrating.

Hawaii certainly had more than 0% chance of being invaded, and the Aleutian Islands WERE invaded, so American territory was breached.

On both coasts, there were lookouts posted. California was most definitely poised for an invasion, as much as today's generation mocks their fears.

To sit here today, look back on our victory, and feel secure in our isolation, it's easy to assume there was no chance of invasion. I assure you there was no such confidence in the early 1940s, when rationing was in effect.

 

[Pigalow]

If you really think that, I don't think you have a clue why the founding fathers created this nation.

As far as valuing 'freedoms' over the lives and health of others, you must also have no clue the role our military plays in maintaing our freedoms. They put their 'lives and health' on the line every day.

? What does the military have to do with anything, & I from a long line of brave men & women who have served, so whatch wth you say please. & I think YOU don't have a clue why the founding fathers founded this nation(they didn't create it), but you certainly think you do.

 

[Pigalow]

You need to read the Constitution. Your rights are clearly defined there.

Just curious - how has your life been ruined?

Are you serious? You're not are you not aware of the hundreds of thousands who have & will lose their jobs due to our pisspoor prolonged inadequate response to this pandemic? Not to mention just as many who have their ended lives ruined by the deaths of loved ones who could have been saved if we weren't such asshats about this virus. I'm just....done with this, I'm going to get really pissed if I keep at it.

 

[DANC]

? What does the military have to do with anything, & I from a long line of brave men & women who have served, so whatch wth you say please. & I think YOU don't have a clue why the founding fathers founded this nation(they didn't create it), but you certainly think you do.

I'll stop now. I can see you're getting hysterical.

Congrats on the long line of military veterans in your family. When have you sacrificed anything for your country?

 

[DANC]

Are you serious? You're not are you not aware of the hundreds of thousands who have & will lose their jobs due to our pisspoor prolonged inadequate response to this pandemic? Not to mention just as many who have their ended lives ruined by the deaths of loved ones who could have been saved if we weren't such asshats about this virus. I'm just....done with this, I'm going to get really pissed if I keep at it.

If you can't answer the question, please don't change the subject.

I just asked how YOUR life was affected.

 

[TMFT]

In hindsight, it's easy to say now that our chances of being invaded during WWII or having our freedom threatened had a 0% of happening.

However,, that is not historically accurate. Nazi subs operated off our Atlantic seaboard prior to the start, and during, WWII. Shipping was disrupted and, in fact, channel islands were created along the Atlantic and the Gulf of Mexico to allow safe shipping, with the ability to stop enemy subs from penetrating.

Hawaii certainly had more than 0% chance of being invaded, and the Aleutian Islands WERE invaded, so American territory was breached.

On both coasts, there were lookouts posted. California was most definitely poised for an invasion, as much as today's generation mocks their fears.

To sit here today, look back on our victory, and feel secure in our isolation, it's easy to assume there was no chance of invasion. I assure you there was no such confidence in the early 1940s, when rationing was in effect.

There weren't enough Germans or Japanese people in the world & they didn't have the resources (which is why Barbarossa & the Japanese expansion happened in the first place) to remotely consider a trans-Atlantic or trans-Pacific invasion of the Lower 48 (HI & AK were territories then) in any way.

Hell, the Germans didn't have enough men to hold France because they had the Eastern Front open. And that was where already were and where they had a defensive advantage. Invading the continental US with no air support (the Luftwaffe was cashed)? The transport ships never would've made near shore.

I don't know if we'll get banned for talking history vs. politics, but I like this more.

 

[Bowlmania]

I don't think our founding fathers intended for us to value our "freedoms" over the lives & health of others.

You're right. They didn't. And the poster you're responding to is grossly uninformed.

In Jacobson v. Massachusetts, the Supreme Court stressed that individual liberty is not absolute and is subject to the police power of the state. "In every well ordered society charged with the duty of conserving the safety of its members, the rights of the individual in respect of his liberty may at times, under the pressure of great dangers, be subjected to such restraint, to be enforced by reasonable regulations, as the safety of the general public may demand." Further, the Court emphasized that "[r]eal liberty for all could not exist under the operation of a principle which recognizes the right of each individual person to use his own, whether in respect of his person or his property, regardless of the injury that may be done to others."

Finally, reasonable limitations on individual freedoms don't just apply at times of public health emergencies like epidemics. Even in the absence of a public health emergency, state and local governments have ample authority to protect the health of the general public in indoor spaces. Smoking bans, for example, are designed to protect the health of employees and patrons, not the smoker, and such ordinances have been routinely upheld as within the police power of the state. Cumulative evidence of harm to health from second-hand smoke readily supplies a rational basis for state action.

Invoking the Constitution and claiming an unconstitutional infringement on a person's individual freedoms because they're required to wear a mask during this pandemic is complete bullsh*t.

 

[ElMeson]

I for one am hoping they move it the season to the spring. We have a team with a lot potential. I have been waiting for this type of team since the late 80s.

This would be a great solution but it’s not going to happen. I think FCS and maybe non Power 5 schools can do it but the powers that run CFB don’t want a watered down version and they know that the top program’s best players who would be draft eligible won’t play. Also any significant injury could potentially cost someone two seasons. Could you imagine losing Penix with a ACL in game 2, he would miss that spring season and have no chance of returning for the fall. Obviously just my opinion but what if the season is canceled? Do scholarship numbers go up? We’d have more than 100 players on a roster that are on scholarship. Or do we just cut about 15 kids? There’s a lot to sort out in this.

 

[TMFT]

This would be a great solution but it’s not going to happen. I think FCS and maybe non Power 5 schools can do it but the powers that run CFB don’t want a watered down version and they know that the top program’s best players who would be draft eligible won’t play. Also any significant injury could potentially cost someone two seasons. Could you imagine losing Penix with a ACL in game 2, he would miss that spring season and have no chance of returning for the fall. Obviously just my opinion but what if the season is canceled? Do scholarship numbers go up? We’d have more than 100 players on a roster that are on scholarship. Or do we just cut about 15 kids? There’s a lot to sort out in this.

The injury concern is legit. Think about Stevie. He was hurt in late November and wasn't 100% when Spring ball started and still may not be when/if Fall camp opens up. If it was a similar situation where he'd get hurt like that in early April, he might not get back into game action until the following November. That's just one anecdotal case, but teams have tons of injuries like that (and more severe) that happen all the time.

 

[DANC]

There weren't enough Germans or Japanese people in the world & they didn't have the resources (which is why Barbarossa & the Japanese expansion happened in the first place) to remotely consider a trans-Atlantic or trans-Pacific invasion of the Lower 48 (HI & AK were territories then) in any way.

Hell, the Germans didn't have enough men to hold France because they had the Eastern Front open. And that was where already were and where they had a defensive advantage. Invading the continental US with no air support (the Luftwaffe was cashed)? The transport ships never would've made near shore.

I don't know if we'll get banned for talking history vs. politics, but I like this more.

Welll, they held France for over 4 years. And Belgium. And Holland.

LIke I said, it's easy to sit here now and see the situation now that we know all the facts. But when the US was faced with Blitzkrieg warfare on both coasts, there was good reason to fear an actual invasion.

Let's not forget - people at that time thought France, with the Maginot line, had plenty of armed forces to hold off the Nazis. And with British troops in the north, there was every reason to believe they could hold them off. The Nazis went through them like a hot knife through butter. With subs off our coast, it was not unreasonable to think they could gain a foothold on US soil. Not to mention the fear that, with a large German-American population and some Nazi sympathizers like Charles Lindbergh and other well-known industrialists, there might be some popular support for the Germans.

But let's take the assumption that, if rationing was OK during WWII, then the suspension of freedoms is OK now because of some perceived national threat. Then, is it OK now to herd up certain racial groups and put them in camps? Because, you know, they did it in WWII.

 

[DANC]

You're right. They didn't. And the poster you're responding to is grossly uninformed.

In Jacobson v. Massachusetts, the Supreme Court stressed that individual liberty is not absolute and is subject to the police power of the state. "In every well ordered society charged with the duty of conserving the safety of its members, the rights of the individual in respect of his liberty may at times, under the pressure of great dangers, be subjected to such restraint, to be enforced by reasonable regulations, as the safety of the general public may demand." Further, the Court emphasized that "[r]eal liberty for all could not exist under the operation of a principle which recognizes the right of each individual person to use his own, whether in respect of his person or his property, regardless of the injury that may be done to others."

Finally, reasonable limitations on individual freedoms don't just apply at times of public health emergencies like epidemics. Even in the absence of a public health emergency, state and local governments have ample authority to protect the health of the general public in indoor spaces. Smoking bans, for example, are designed to protect the health of employees and patrons, not the smoker, and such ordinances have been routinely upheld as within the police power of the state. Cumulative evidence of harm to health from second-hand smoke readily supplies a rational basis for state action.

Invoking the Constitution and claiming an unconstitutional infringement on a person's individual freedoms because they're required to wear a mask during this pandemic is complete bullsh*t.

LOL So much for having me on ignore.

You obviously don't understand the difference between the founding fathers, why they declared independence, and some Supreme Court decision years later.

And before you claim the Supreme court is only upholding the Constitution, there have been many Supreme Court rulings that have been overturned, including those involving slavery.

 

[TMFT]

Welll, they held France for over 4 years. And Belgium. And Holland.

LIke I said, it's easy to sit here now and see the situation now that we know all the facts. But when the US was faced with Blitzkrieg warfare on both coasts, there was good reason to fear an actual invasion.

Let's not forget - people at that time thought France, with the Maginot line, had plenty of armed forces to hold off the Nazis. And with British troops in the north, there was every reason to believe they could hold them off. The Nazis went through them like a hot knife through butter. With subs off our coast, it was not unreasonable to think they could gain a foothold on US soil. Not to mention the fear that, with a large German-American population and some Nazi sympathizers like Charles Lindbergh and other well-known industrialists, there might be some popular support for the Germans.

But let's take the assumption that, if rationing was OK during WWII, then the suspension of freedoms is OK now because of some perceived national threat. Then, is it OK now to herd up certain racial groups and put them in camps? Because, you know, they did it in WWII.

Maginot line wasn't the Atlantic Ocean. And there's no Atlantic version of Belgium to do an end-run around to sneak in the back door. The Kriegsmarine didn't even have aircraft carriers. Submarines are great but they weren't going to launch an invasion with them. And again, Wermacht troop transports would never have seen the shores. They'd have been spotted by long range American planes and sunk before getting within 100 miles by focused aerial and naval attacks. But I do appreciate your dedication to your POV.

As to your other question. No. Not right to put American citizens in camps back then. Wasn't right then. Still not right now. But we're talking about wearing masks & limiting crowd sizes. Japanese internment this ain't.

There are almost always some suspension of freedoms during or because of extraordinary circumstances. Whether it was rationing during WW2, rationing during the 70s oil crisis, travel safety changes post 9/11, 1934 NFA banning machine guns for home use, and the list goes on and on.

Ben Franklin said it best, "We must all hang together, or, most assuredly, we shall all hang separately." It's a little flipping mask folks. This disease is not a lie. It's not a scam. It's not a the media and/or deep state trying to take down the president. There's not going to be a cure announced the morning after the election.

You want to know why I wasn't a 4-year varsity starter? Because I wasn't very good. It wasn't because the coach hated me, or another kid's dad was assisting, or because my coach was dumb. At the end of the day, I just wasn't that good of a football player. And it is just staggering to see grown men "Uncle Rico-ing" this whole thing with every excuse in the world other than the plain, simple, obviously in their face facts of the matter.

I apologize for getting this thread locked.

 

[Chriselli]

You want to know why I wasn't a 4-year varsity starter? Because I wasn't very good. It wasn't because the coach hated me, or another kid's dad was assisting, or because my coach was dumb. At the end of the day, I just wasn't that good of a football player. And it is just staggering to see grown men "Uncle Rico-ing" this whole thing with every excuse in the world other than the plain, simple, obviously in their face facts of the matter.

Some people struggle with inconvenient or unpleasant truths. I am totally convinced that if we promised not to judge or talk about it, turned off the lights, and let everyone jump sides...many would. Pride is what drives this doubling/tripling down on blatant falsehoods, IMO.

 

[76-1]

Welll, they held France for over 4 years. And Belgium. And Holland.

LIke I said, it's easy to sit here now and see the situation now that we know all the facts. But when the US was faced with Blitzkrieg warfare on both coasts, there was good reason to fear an actual invasion.

Let's not forget - people at that time thought France, with the Maginot line, had plenty of armed forces to hold off the Nazis. And with British troops in the north, there was every reason to believe they could hold them off. The Nazis went through them like a hot knife through butter. With subs off our coast, it was not unreasonable to think they could gain a foothold on US soil. Not to mention the fear that, with a large German-American population and some Nazi sympathizers like Charles Lindbergh and other well-known industrialists, there might be some popular support for the Germans.

But let's take the assumption that, if rationing was OK during WWII, then the suspension of freedoms is OK now because of some perceived national threat. Then, is it OK now to herd up certain racial groups and put them in camps? Because, you know, they did it in WWII.

//I have real work to do today so I attempt to be brief and probably won't respond to any being ripped on until three or four days from now...//

Having been raised by one of the Marines responsible for defending the West coast at the onset of World War 2..., I can unequivocally tell anyone who cares to listen that in 1941 the USMC (along with the Army units based on the west coast) believed there to be an imminent threat of invasion by the Japanese and they also believed they didn't have the resources on hand to mount a credible defense of the entire west coast...

It was believed at the time by both the Marines and the Army that any real defense would consist of a series of delaying actions until a "hold at all costs" defensive position could be established in the central Rockies.

The very real threat of invasion was key to as why the FBI and Army Intelligence convinced FDR that the Japanese/Americans should be rounded up and moved inland, away from the west coast.

There were serious concerns that the Japanese population would raise up as a "third column" guerilla force to support the Japanese invasion... That forced removal by FDR didn't occur on just a whim...

In retrospect, with the wonderful gift of hindsight available, those internment camps were a serious mistake on several levels..., but that action was taken based on what was precieved as a very credible threat by an enemy who had shown the ability project force from the sea all across the Pacific...

I find it sad that these decades after the fact historians seem to have never bothered to interview the very men who were actually on the ground at the time...

This may explain why BLM protesters are defacing and/or pulling down statues of Fredric Douglass, U.S. Grant, and Abraham Lincoln...: Crappy History teachers and/or textbooks...

Looks like we now have a couple of entire generations who don't know their own history...

 

[Bowlmania]

LOL So much for having me on ignore.

You obviously don't understand the difference between the founding fathers, why they declared independence, and some Supreme Court decision years later.

And before you claim the Supreme court is only upholding the Constitution, there have been many Supreme Court rulings that have been overturned, including those involving slavery.

I hate to be the one to break this to you, Danny, but it's the United States Supreme Court, not you, that functions as the guardian - - and interpreter - - of the Constitution. Jacobson v. Massachusetts remains the law on this issue.

You're out of your depth here, friend. You have no idea what you're talking about.

 

[DANC]

//I have real work to do today so I attempt to be brief and probably won't respond to any being ripped on until three or four days from now...//

Having been raised by one of the Marines responsible for defending the West coast at the onset of World War 2..., I can unequivocally tell anyone who cares to listen that in 1941 the USMC (along with the Army units based on the west coast) believed there to be an imminent threat of invasion by the Japanese and they also believed they didn't have the resources on hand to mount a credible defense of the entire west coast...

It was believed at the time by both the Marines and the Army that any real defense would consist of a series of delaying actions until a "hold at all costs" defensive position could be established in the central Rockies.

The very real threat of invasion was key to as why the FBI and Army Intelligence convinced FDR that the Japanese/Americans should be rounded up and moved inland, away from the west coast.

There were serious concerns that the Japanese population would raise up as a "third column" guerilla force to support the Japanese invasion... That forced removal by FDR didn't occur on just a whim...

In retrospect, with the wonderful gift of hindsight available, those internment camps were a serious mistake on several levels..., but that action was taken based on what was precieved as a very credible threat by an enemy who had shown the ability project force from the sea all across the Pacific...

I find it sad that these decades after the fact historians seem to have never bothered to interview the very men who were actually on the ground at the time...

This may explain why BLM protesters are defacing and/or pulling down statues of Fredric Douglass, U.S. Grant, and Abraham Lincoln...: Crappy History teachers and/or textbooks...

Looks like we now have a couple of entire generations who don't know their own history...

Yes, it's amazing the number of expert historians there are almost 80 years after the fact who now pass judgement on the thoughts and fears of Americans during that time.

Makes you wonder how people will judge us 80 years from now when evaluating our response to this virus, doesn't it?

What can you do but sit back and shake your head?

I

 

[DANC]

I hate to be the one to break this to you, Danny, but it's the United States Supreme Court, not you, that functions as the guardian - - and interpreter - - of the Constitution. Jacobson v. Massachusetts remains the law on this issue.

You're out of your depth here, friend. You have no idea what you're talking about.

I know enough to know the Supreme Court is not infallible

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_overruled_United_States_Supreme_Court_decisions

And I'm not your friend.

 

[DANC]

I hate to be the one to break this to you, Danny, but it's the United States Supreme Court, not you, that functions as the guardian - - and interpreter - - of the Constitution. Jacobson v. Massachusetts remains the law on this issue.

You're out of your depth here, friend. You have no idea what you're talking about.

Here's a little late-night reading about your outdated Jacobsom v. Massachusetts ruling.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1449224/

 

[Pigalow]

If you can't answer the question, please don't change the subject.

I just asked how YOUR life was affected.

EVERYONE'S life has been affected, as you know(I hope), but it's pointless question anyway because MILLIONS of lives have been adversely affected & whether or not a singular individual's life has or hasn't been affected has zero bearing on the larger picture of this pandemic & the disastrous affect it's having on our nation. Your trying to exploit semantics to make it appear a though you're still in an argument in which you're getting your ass handed to you.

 

[Pigalow]

I'll stop now. I can see you're getting hysterical.

Congrats on the long line of military veterans in your family. When have you sacrificed anything for your country?

When are you gong to stop? Not "now", as you claimed you would. I have sacrificed since last Monday when I've quarantined on my own accord on the slight chance that the covid test I'm taking tomorrow might be positive. Costing myself about $1,500 in lost wages(which could be taken away any day due to this virus you have so little fear of & respect for)& a whole lot of stress & comfort For my country & fellow Americans. Entirely non mandatory, just out of responsibility & respect for the health of others. Not that it's any of your business. Whereas you are a threat to your country with the ignorance you are spewing concerning this pandemic, & the fact that you think you're correct makes you downright hostile to society. I hope all of your contacts realize how clueless you are.

 

[TMFT]

Yes, it's amazing the number of expert historians there are almost 80 years after the fact who now pass judgement on the thoughts and fears of Americans during that time.

Makes you wonder how people will judge us 80 years from now when evaluating our response to this virus, doesn't it?

What can you do but sit back and shake your head?

I

I'm not telling you guys what your parents were or weren't afraid of in 1942. I'm only telling you what was logistically possible. And yes, I would MUCH rather listen to an historian 50 years after the fact that has been able to pore over thousands and thousands of pages of primary sources to come to his conclusion than someone, solider or not, who lived it. I imagine 76-1's father was not privy to all of the information that historians have since come into.

 

[Bowlmania]

Here's a little late-night reading about your outdated Jacobsom v. Massachusetts ruling.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1449224/

Jacobson is still perfectly good law.

Individual liberty must be subordinated to the welfare of the general public.

I'm begging you to please stop. Your ignorance on this topic is on full display and you're embarrassing yourself.

 

[oldcougar77]

//I have real work to do today so I attempt to be brief and probably won't respond to any being ripped on until three or four days from now...//

Having been raised by one of the Marines responsible for defending the West coast at the onset of World War 2..., I can unequivocally tell anyone who cares to listen that in 1941 the USMC (along with the Army units based on the west coast) believed there to be an imminent threat of invasion by the Japanese and they also believed they didn't have the resources on hand to mount a credible defense of the entire west coast...

It was believed at the time by both the Marines and the Army that any real defense would consist of a series of delaying actions until a "hold at all costs" defensive position could be established in the central Rockies.

The very real threat of invasion was key to as why the FBI and Army Intelligence convinced FDR that the Japanese/Americans should be rounded up and moved inland, away from the west coast.

There were serious concerns that the Japanese population would raise up as a "third column" guerilla force to support the Japanese invasion... That forced removal by FDR didn't occur on just a whim...

In retrospect, with the wonderful gift of hindsight available, those internment camps were a serious mistake on several levels..., but that action was taken based on what was precieved as a very credible threat by an enemy who had shown the ability project force from the sea all across the Pacific...

I find it sad that these decades after the fact historians seem to have never bothered to interview the very men who were actually on the ground at the time...

This may explain why BLM protesters are defacing and/or pulling down statues of Fredric Douglass, U.S. Grant, and Abraham Lincoln...: Crappy History teachers and/or textbooks...

Looks like we now have a couple of entire generations who don't know their own history...

I'm one of those history teachers. Your story is bullshit - even if it was told to you by a Marine (who likely had zero inside information). There was no credible threat of attack on the west coast by the Japanese, they were absolutely stretching their limits to mount the raid on Pearl Harbor.

The internment was base strictly on hysterical racism. BTW, a German raid on the east coast was far more likely, and we know that at least one German crew actually landed and conducted a mission there. At the time, there were tens of thousands of first-and-second generation German-Americans living in those East Coast cities. Not a single one of them was ever removed from their homes.

Soldiers then, like now are rarely if ever privy to intelligence. Rumors fly among soldiers just like they do among the general public and in any workplace. I've been around a lot of veterans in my life who have claimed inside knowledge of military operations that they knew no more about than any average Joe on the street - including an uncle who was an Airman in the Air Force for four years and never left the state of Washington. But if you ask him, he had inside access to every US military event in the Cold War.

 

[DANC]

EVERYONE'S life has been affected, as you know(I hope), but it's pointless question anyway because MILLIONS of lives have been adversely affected & whether or not a singular individual's life has or hasn't been affected has zero bearing on the larger picture of this pandemic & the disastrous affect it's having on our nation. Your trying to exploit semantics to make it appear a though you're still in an argument in which you're getting your ass handed to you.

You made the claim. I just asked you to explain and you got angry about it.

 

[DANC]

Jacobson is still perfectly good law.

Individual liberty must be subordinated to the welfare of the general public.

I'm begging you to please stop. Your ignorance on this topic is on full display and you're embarrassing yourself.

You're begging me to stop because i have proved how your argument is not relevent today.

 

[DANC]

I'm not telling you guys what your parents were or weren't afraid of in 1942. I'm only telling you what was logistically possible. And yes, I would MUCH rather listen to an historian 50 years after the fact that has been able to pore over thousands and thousands of pages of primary sources to come to his conclusion than someone, solider or not, who lived it. I imagine 76-1's father was not privy to all of the information that historians have since come into.

The entire West Coast was virtually undefended. Our Navy, which was based in Pearly Harbor, was decimated and would post no threat to the Japanese if they had decided to land troops in California.

Nazi subs did land spies on the East Coast and had free reign on the Eastern Seaboard.

What you're arguing is that the US was in no danger of being taken over. That may be true, but would you want any enemy gaining a foothold in the US? Wouldn't you have to extreme measures to make sure that didn't happen, not having the advantage of 80 year hindsight?

Of course you would. And with the number of sheeple we see today, I'm sure there were many than that would have gladly given up their liberties based on fear of any invasion.

This isn't racism, which many were against 150 years ago. We're talking about fear of an invasion, which was perfectly legitimate and understandable then.

You know we didn't have the internet then, right? lol

 

[DANC]

When are you gong to stop? Not "now", as you claimed you would. I have sacrificed since last Monday when I've quarantined on my own accord on the slight chance that the covid test I'm taking tomorrow might be positive. Costing myself about $1,500 in lost wages(which could be taken away any day due to this virus you have so little fear of & respect for)& a whole lot of stress & comfort For my country & fellow Americans. Entirely non mandatory, just out of responsibility & respect for the health of others. Not that it's any of your business. Whereas you are a threat to your country with the ignorance you are spewing concerning this pandemic, & the fact that you think you're correct makes you downright hostile to society. I hope all of your contacts realize how clueless you are.

If there was an Academy Award for Drama On The Internet, you'd be a major contender..

I guess you equate losing $1,500 to giving years of your life to military service. You are a miserable ingrate and have no appreciation of the liberties you've been given.

 

[82hoosier]

The military protects liberties. It has never granted liberties. Same with the police. Same with the National Guard. Same with politicians.

At least that's the way it's supposed to work. Slavery didn't work that way. White men who own property being the only people who could vote - that didn't work that way. Maybe it's a matter of semantics but I don't think anybody gives anybody liberty. Perhaps you could say that they restore liberty to those who have been wrongly deprived.

 

[76-1]

I'm one of those history teachers. Your story is bullshit - even if it was told to you by a Marine (who likely had zero inside information). There was no credible threat of attack on the west coast by the Japanese, they were absolutely stretching their limits to mount the raid on Pearl Harbor.

The internment was base strictly on hysterical racism. BTW, a German raid on the east coast was far more likely, and we know that at least one German crew actually landed and conducted a mission there. At the time, there were tens of thousands of first-and-second generation German-Americans living in those East Coast cities. Not a single one of them was ever removed from their homes.

Soldiers then, like now are rarely if ever privy to intelligence. Rumors fly among soldiers just like they do among the general public and in any workplace. I've been around a lot of veterans in my life who have claimed inside knowledge of military operations that they knew no more about than any average Joe on the street - including an uncle who was an Airman in the Air Force for four years and never left the state of Washington. But if you ask him, he had inside access to every US military event in the Cold War.

Without giving you my complete family history I can tell you that as a kid I was in the company of a Medal of Honor recipient, several Marine Generals, the Commandant of the Marine Corps.., along with the (later to be) XO of the USS Ranger, and the (Temporary) wartime military governor of Bermuda.

Two other family friends were Army Generals and another was part of a Ultra Top Secret Army communications outfit on Guam (just a lowly Tech Sgt) who personally sent the flash message signaling the end of the war in the Pacific...

There's much more but I don't want to bore you...

Suffice to say I'm more than a little certain that I have better information on this topic than any textbook attempting to give the authors version of events... (most of whom never saw the inside of a barracks, much less combat)...

As far as "stretching their limits" goes someday you ought to take a look at the "entire" makeup of the Midway invasion force (including Yamamotos ships along with the diversion force...), that was operational only 6 months after the Pearl Harbor attack...

The Japanese had a Lot more resources at the beginning of World War Two than most ever give them credit for and if they had not been stopped cold at Midway and Guadalcanal respectively..., Australia, New Zealand, Hawaii and much of the west coast could have (and probably would have) ended up under their control.

Literally through the Grace of God..., and a lot of Very Brave men none of the above came to pass... I was blessed to have had the honor of being around many of them...

//-My father was studying sand tables getting his outfit ready to land on on Kyushu when the bomb was dropped and had a friend who did the Japanese Beach Defense survey immediately after their surrender..., so if there is anything you want to know about the end of the war in the Pacific I can help you there too... Here's the short version: dropping the bomb(s) saved a Lot more lives than they took... -\\

 

[Bowlmania]

You're begging me to stop because i have proved how your argument is not relevent today.

You can't possibly be this dense. One more time - - Jacobson is good law and is cited by courts and Constitutional scholars today.

Restraints on individual liberty are permissible to protect the public health. This is why you don't have the right, for example, to go into a restaurant or board a commercial aircraft and then light a cigarette.

People like you are part of the problem. If the country as a whole had accepted mask-wearing just a couple of months ago, we'd almost certainly have many fewer deaths and be in a much better place with respect to the pandemic. But those like you who reflexively shout, "But what about my Constitutional rights!" yet know next to nothing about the Constitution hold us back with their ignorance and selfishness.

 

[DANC]

Without giving you my complete family history I can tell you that as a kid I was in the company of a Medal of Honor recipient, several Marine Generals, the Commandant of the Marine Corps.., along with the XO of the USS Ranger, and the wartime military governor of Bermuda.

Two other family friends were Army Generals and another was part of a Ultra Top Secret Army communications outfit on Guam (just a lowly Tech Sgt) who personally sent the flash message signaling the end of the war in the Pacific... (I have a facsimile of it that his son gave me).

There's much more but I don't want to bore you...

Suffice to say I'm more than a little certain that I have better information on this topic than any textbook attempting to give the authors version of events... (most of whom never saw the inside of a barracks, much less combat)...

As far as "stretching their limits" goes someday you ought to take a look at the "entire" makeup of the Midway invasion force (including Yamamotos ships along with the diversion force...), that was operational only 6 months after the Pearl Harbor attack...

The Japanese had a Lot more resources at the beginning of World War Two than most ever give them credit for and if they had not been stopped cold at Midway and Guadalcanal respectively..., Australia, New Zealand, Hawaii and much of the west coast could have (and probably would have) ended up under their control.

Literally through the Grace of God..., and a lot of Very Brave men none of the above came to pass... I was blessed to have had the honor of being around many of them...

//-My father was studying sand tables getting his outfit ready to land on on Kyushu when the bomb was dropped and had a friend who did the Japanese Beach Defense survey immediately after their surrender..., so if there is anything you want to know about that part of the war in the Pacific I can help you there too... Here's the short version: dropping the bomb(s) saved a Lot more lives than they took... -\\

People today have no idea.

In their world, the US has always been the baddest dude on the block, unchallenged by anyone else.

The facts prior to 1941 are anything but. The US Army was training with wooden rifles. The numbers of our military were dwarfed by both Germany and Japan.

On Guadalcanal, there was no certainty of victory, which was, in fact, improbable, when our fleet was run off after dropping off troops.

American Naval pilots at Midway went on virtual suicide missions, taking off knowing not knowing where the enemy fleet was and staying to fight when they knew they didn't have fuel to return to their ships.

I can assure anyone who is interested - most people at the time who knew the odds, viewed our victory at Midway as Divine Intervention. I certainly do.

Respect to to your family and their service to our country. I was also in one of those 'secret' Army Communications organizations and I can assure anyone who thinks the average solder knows nothing more than the average person that many do. And I'm talking low-level personnel. Johnny Cash, as an Air Force Security Agent Sergeant, was the first to capture the code that announced Stalin's death. I was stationed in Berlin in the early 70s and I knew where every Russian air and land assets in East Germany were and what frequencies they used. I also knew who one Russian General's wife was shtooping - and it wasn't her husband.

People today just naturally assume people were ignorant back then. Nothing could be further from the truth.

 

[DANC]

You can't possibly be this dense. One more time - - Jacobson is good law and is cited by courts and Constitutional scholars today.

Restraints on individual liberty are permissible to protect the public health. This is why you don't have the right, for example, to go into a restaurant or board a commercial aircraft and then light a cigarette.

People like you are part of the problem. If the country as a whole had accepted mask-wearing just a couple of months ago, we'd almost certainly have many fewer deaths and be in a much better place with respect to the pandemic. But those like you who reflexively shout, "But what about my Constitutional rights!" yet know next to nothing about the Constitution hold us back with their ignorance and selfishness.

We probably would have accepted masks earlier if Fauci hadn't lied when he said they weren't effective.

Does your knowledge of history only go back a couple months?

 

[Bowlmania]

We probably would have accepted masks earlier if Fauci hadn't lied when he said they weren't effective.

Does your knowledge of history only go back a couple months?

Feeble pivot. You had been talking about the Constitution, but at least this reflects you've finally dropped your ridiculous "legal" argument.

Frankly I think more would have accepted masks earlier if your idol had started wearing one in public earlier than the other day - - like on April 3 when his own Task Force strongly recommended that everyone wear them.

 

[oldcougar77]

The entire West Coast was virtually undefended. Our Navy, which was based in Pearly Harbor, was decimated and would post no threat to the Japanese if they had decided to land troops in California.

Nazi subs did land spies on the East Coast and had free reign on the Eastern Seaboard.

What you're arguing is that the US was in no danger of being taken over. That may be true, but would you want any enemy gaining a foothold in the US? Wouldn't you have to extreme measures to make sure that didn't happen, not having the advantage of 80 year hindsight?

Of course you would. And with the number of sheeple we see today, I'm sure there were many than that would have gladly given up their liberties based on fear of any invasion.

This isn't racism, which many were against 150 years ago. We're talking about fear of an invasion, which was perfectly legitimate and understandable then.

You know we didn't have the internet then, right? lol

I knew a man of Japanese descent who spent his teenage years in an internment camp - relocated from the San Francisco area to Manzanar. He was able to leave late during the war to attend Earlham College - one of the very few educational institutions that would accept Japanese Americans as students. Not only was this guy an American citizen, born on US soil, his father was also an American citizen born on US soil. His grandfather had immigrated to California in the 1880's. By the time WWII started, his grandfather was dead. Neither the man I knew or his father spoke a word of Japanese.

When the relocation order came the family was forced to sell everything they owned, including a successful retail business and their home for pennies on the dollar to white people who took full advantage of them, because they could take only what they could carry. Again, not a single family of German descent, not even those who were first-generation Americans and not even US citizens were forced out of their homes. Even though the likelihood of German espionage was far greater.

So don't tell me that it wasn't racism and don't try to sell bullshit that the relocation of AMERICAN CITIZENS was justified, just because they looked Asian. And just so you know, this man I knew ultimately became a very successful physician and used to come speak to my U.S. History classes in the early 1980's. So it wasn't a revisionist lens of 80 years. I remember learning about this as a high school student in the 1970's, and my students were getting a first-hand account of this terrible injustice about 40 years after the fact. From a man then about 60 years old who lived it.

I'm looking forward to the next topic of political interest here when you defend slavery and the secession of the South as necessary and proper.

 

[DANC]

I knew a man of Japanese descent who spent his teenage years in an internment camp - relocated from the San Francisco area to Manzanar. He was able to leave late during the war to attend Earlham College - one of the very few educational institutions that would accept Japanese Americans as students. Not only was this guy an American citizen, born on US soil, his father was also an American citizen born on US soil. His grandfather had immigrated to California in the 1880's. By the time WWII started, his grandfather was dead. Neither the man I knew or his father spoke a word of Japanese.

When the relocation order came the family was forced to sell everything they owned, including a successful retail business and their home for pennies on the dollar to white people who took full advantage of them, because they could take only what they could carry. Again, not a single family of German descent, not even those who were first-generation Americans and not even US citizens were forced out of their homes. Even though the likelihood of German espionage was far greater.

So don't tell me that it wasn't racism and don't try to sell bullshit that the relocation of AMERICAN CITIZENS was justified, just because they looked Asian. And just so you know, this man I knew ultimately became a very successful physician and used to come speak to my U.S. History classes in the early 1980's. So it wasn't a revisionist lens of 80 years. I remember learning about this as a high school student in the 1970's, and my students were getting a first-hand account of this terrible injustice about 40 years after the fact. From a man then about 60 years old who lived it.

I'm looking forward to the next topic of political interest here when you defend slavery and the secession of the South as necessary and proper.

I never claimed it wasn't racism and I in no way justified the camps.

If you can follow along, what I was arguing was the difference between WWII and the current situation regarding government actions like rationing. I was told rationing then is like requiring masks today. Things were much more serious then, and I detailed why.

Then I made the point that we created camps for minorities then, so whoever justifies actions during the war could use it for justification for doing the same today.

I'm sorry if that message got lost in the discussion, but you can read my posts to see that I never advocated anything like the camps even then.

My point, again, is that government actions like rationing were justified in the situation then, when invastion was considered imminent. We are nowhere close to that today.

As for you last, snarky, sentence, you can kiss my ass.

 

[oldcougar77]

I never claimed it wasn't racism and I in no way justified the camps.

If you can follow along, what I was arguing was the difference between WWII and the current situation regarding government actions like rationing. I was told rationing then is like requiring masks today. Things were much more serious then, and I detailed why.

Then I made the point that we created camps for minorities then, so whoever justifies actions during the war could use it for justification for doing the same today.

I'm sorry if that message got lost in the discussion, but you can read my posts to see that I never advocated anything like the camps even then.

My point, again, is that government actions like rationing were justified in the situation then, when invastion was considered imminent. We are nowhere close to that today.

As for you last, snarky, sentence, you can kiss my ass.

Perhaps I should have responded directly to 76-1 who made the ridiculous assertion that there was a credible threat of Japanese-Americans rising up in a guerilla movement to undermine the US, when indeed there was no credible threat. It's the reason the Civil Liberties Act of 1988 ( signed by Ronald Reagan himself) states specifically that the decision to relocate Japanese-Americans was based on race prejudice and war hysteria and not on legitimate security concerns.

Your chiming in about 80 years of hindsight struck a nerve. If German-Americans on the East Coast had been relocated as well, an argument could have been that the decision - even if it violated the Constitution - was not purely racist. Given that only Asian-Americans were targeted, it was nothing but racism. That point was argued at the time of the relocation, and again in the courts as early as the 1970's. It is not a position that has only recently been posited by recent liberal historians.

As for my last sentence, I apologize. That was over the line. I tell my students constantly when we talk about political parties and partisanship that we would be a much better country if people on both sides would simply stop trying to defend the indefensible, whether it be Bill Clinton's perjury and obstruction of witnesses or Donald Trump's vengeful acts and inflammatory rhetoric.

To the point that started this thread's derailment, we would be in a much better place in this country if our President had supported mask-wearing and social distancing from the get-go because a large percentage of the American populace - for better or worse - take their cues directly from him. His treatment of mask-wearing as hysterical and weak, as well as his flaunting documented science and attempting to stage large indoor rallies, sent a terrible message to a lot of his faithful followers. He is 100 percent responsible for the politicization of what should have been a unified message from every person in our government to wear a mask and practice social distancing.

 

[Pigalow]

If there was an Academy Award for Drama On The Internet, you'd be a major contender..

I guess you equate losing $1,500 to giving years of your life to military service. You are a miserable ingrate and have no appreciation of the liberties you've been given.

Considering your opinion means absolutely nothing to me, I don't care. Dank.

 

[DANC]

Perhaps I should have responded directly to 76-1 who made the ridiculous assertion that there was a credible threat of Japanese-Americans rising up in a guerilla movement to undermine the US, when indeed there was no credible threat. It's the reason the Civil Liberties Act of 1988 ( signed by Ronald Reagan himself) states specifically that the decision to relocate Japanese-Americans was based on race prejudice and war hysteria and not on legitimate security concerns.

Your chiming in about 80 years of hindsight struck a nerve. If German-Americans on the East Coast had been relocated as well, an argument could have been that the decision - even if it violated the Constitution - was not purely racist. Given that only Asian-Americans were targeted, it was nothing but racism. That point was argued at the time of the relocation, and again in the courts as early as the 1970's. It is not a position that has only recently been posited by recent liberal historians.

As for my last sentence, I apologize. That was over the line. I tell my students constantly when we talk about political parties and partisanship that we would be a much better country if people on both sides would simply stop trying to defend the indefensible, whether it be Bill Clinton's perjury and obstruction of witnesses or Donald Trump's vengeful acts and inflammatory rhetoric.

To the point that started this thread's derailment, we would be in a much better place in this country if our President had supported mask-wearing and social distancing from the get-go because a large percentage of the American populace - for better or worse - take their cues directly from him. His treatment of mask-wearing as hysterical and weak, as well as his flaunting documented science and attempting to stage large indoor rallies, sent a terrible message to a lot of his faithful followers. He is 100 percent responsible for the politicization of what should have been a unified message from every person in our government to wear a mask and practice social distancing.

He didn't wear a mask because Dr. Fauci said, at the time, that facemasks were not effective. He has since conveniently changed his position, but for the months of March and April, he stuck with his original position on masks.

Shutting a country down shouldn't be a spur of the moment decision. He shut down entry from China and Europe and was heavily criticized for it. He went by the advice of his experts. None of them knew how serious it was until March.

If you're going to blame him for the politicization, then credit him for keeping the number of deaths well below the 2 million originally projected. Why don't we ever hear about that now? I can just as easily say it's because of Trump that the number of deaths are nowhere near projections. And have you seen the number of deaths in Indiana lately? 2 yesterday. I'll provide documentation here: https://www.coronavirus.in.gov/

So you can continue to believe the media narrative or you can believe the data. Your choice.

 

[Pigalow]

You made the claim. I just asked you to explain and you got angry about it.

Yes, that level of apathy & ignorance towards the plight of those engrossed in the greatest health crisis in decades angers me.

 

[DANC]

Considering your opinion means absolutely nothing to me, I don't care. Dank.

I figured you were all mouth, Pig.