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Strong effort

I thought we played relatively well..
Indiana will have to dig to be .500 in conference.
But it's the best conference in the country !
 
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I thought we played relatively well..
Indiana will have to dig to be .500 in conference.
But it's the best conference in the country !

I made that argument all year long last year. It’s obvious Archie is improving the program. They’ve gotten progressively better every year since he arrived.

Its just really hard to watch programs like Iowa, Illinois, and Rutgers do what they’re doing...and not be more than a little ancy with .500 ball. I don’t think it means nearly as much as it used to...but in comparison with those other teams I mentioned...we are Indiana!
 
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It’s obvious Archie is improving the program. They’ve gotten progressively better every year since he arrived.

There are degrees of “better.”

Personally, I don’t see significant improvement over his 3+ seasons. But, even if there has been, can anybody say with a straight face that it’s been a satisfactory amount of improvement? Would Archie himself even say that?

That said, FSU is a quality team and we gave them a good game. It wasn’t a disaster. But, obviously, we’re going to have to find a way to be more consistently effective on offense - which sounds a whole lot like what we’ve been saying for 3+ years. Here’s to hoping it finally happens....and soon.
 
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There are degrees of “better.”

Personally, I don’t see significant improvement over his 3+ seasons. But, even if there has been, can anybody say with a straight face that it’s been a satisfactory amount of improvement? Would Archie himself even say that?

That said, FSU is a quality team and we gave them a good game. It wasn’t a disaster. But, obviously, we’re going to have to find a way to be more consistently effective on offense - which sounds a whole lot like what we’ve been saying for 3+ years. Here’s to hoping it finally happens....and soon.

Nope, there has NOT been a satisfactory amount of improvement.

I wonder who the shooting coach is?
 
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Nope, there has NOT been a satisfactory amount of improvement.

I wonder who the shooting coach is?
At this level you don't coach shooters, you recruit them. I hate it because I really like Archie Miller and I love the style of basketball we play. He's a really good coach. That said, he has failed to land quality shooters who can stretch defenses. You can't be a conference contender, or a high-seed tournament team when you have to work so hard for every score. We are good enough in every other area to compete with everybody we play ( although we gave up too many offensive rebounds in both losses - but that's a fixable problem).

For whatever reason, we keep striking out on players that can stretch defenses. Archie has to prove that he can convince a few true shooters to come to Bloomington or we are going to be a team that has to be perfect in every other regard to beat top teams. That's a tall order in a league as good as the B1G. We will always be good with Archie Miller as our coach, but he has to recruit better offensive players - especially shooters - if we are going to be elite.
 
At this level you don't coach shooters, you recruit them. I hate it because I really like Archie Miller and I love the style of basketball we play. He's a really good coach. That said, he has failed to land quality shooters who can stretch defenses. You can't be a conference contender, or a high-seed tournament team when you have to work so hard for every score. We are good enough in every other area to compete with everybody we play ( although we gave up too many offensive rebounds in both losses - but that's a fixable problem).

For whatever reason, we keep striking out on players that can stretch defenses. Archie has to prove that he can convince a few true shooters to come to Bloomington or we are going to be a team that has to be perfect in every other regard to beat top teams. That's a tall order in a league as good as the B1G. We will always be good with Archie Miller as our coach, but he has to recruit better offensive players - especially shooters - if we are going to be elite.

I don't think it's shooters per se, it's talent.

This 'Indiana first' recruiting has made us a high quality mid major in regards to talent.

The majority of the Indiana kids who have come in can't hit the side of a barn and are at a physical disadvantage.

Again, high mid major talent.

Doesn't have to be one and dones but if the state can't produce high major talent, Archie has to recognize that and go out and get it.

Even the so called supreme talent has been grossly overrated, other than TJD.

Romeo was skinny and couldn't hit water from the ocean.

Lander hasn't hit anything yet and looks like he should be playing BNL, not FSU.

So with our mid major guards we're doing what we can. Playing solid defense and finally attacking offensively (except Rob. He's never in a hurry. I'm putting the over on ten second violations at four with the shortened season. He just walks the ball up the court. No hurry, just killing clock for no reason).
 
I don't think it's shooters per se, it's talent.

This 'Indiana first' recruiting has made us a high quality mid major in regards to talent.

The majority of the Indiana kids who have come in can't hit the side of a barn and are at a physical disadvantage.

Again, high mid major talent.

Doesn't have to be one and dones but if the state can't produce high major talent, Archie has to recognize that and go out and get it.

Even the so called supreme talent has been grossly overrated, other than TJD.

Romeo was skinny and couldn't hit water from the ocean.

Lander hasn't hit anything yet and looks like he should be playing BNL, not FSU.

So with our mid major guards we're doing what we can. Playing solid defense and finally attacking offensively (except Rob. He's never in a hurry. I'm putting the over on ten second violations at four with the shortened season. He just walks the ball up the court. No hurry, just killing clock for no reason).

Nijel Pack should have been the target. Not Lander.
 
but could have won.

I hate it when the Hoosiers lose, but I can wholeheartedly cheer for the team that played last night. They weren't trying to look cool, they looked like they cared about competing and they gave max effort. They played fantastic defense and just played the game with a toughness that many of us older folks really appreciate because it does bring back memories of Coach Knight's really good teams. That effort and toughness will translate to wins. Go Hoosiers!!!
 
This was as physical a game as IU will see in the BIG...and there will be a couple more of them. Ultimately, as I said in the chat with 3:00 minutes to go that it would come down to a FT and it did. The game was IU's to win in reg until the second FT was missed late and left the game tied at 62 IIRC.

This team does some things pretty well but if they cannot get the shooting under control they will struggle and AM will likely be done. I don't see the BOT protecting AM they way they did Crean unless the C19 card is played.
 
I know I’m one of the rare people on these boards who doesn’t detest Crean, but which teams have been more fun to watch?
 
I know I’m one of the rare people on these boards who doesn’t detest Crean, but which teams have been more fun to watch?
For me, Crean's teams were terribly painful, again for me, it's Crean's no doubt. I can't stand not playing D and they conceded SO many baskets.
 
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I know I’m one of the rare people on these boards who doesn’t detest Crean, but which teams have been more fun to watch?

Neither. I miss Kelvin Sampson’s teams. While he may have been a Grey Area Operator, I wish he were still here. It’s not like the NCAA cares about shady dealings anyways.
 
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At this level you don't coach shooters, you recruit them.

Not sure I agree with this. Take Vic for example. I don't think he came to IU known as a shooter but, I assume, through hard work and coaching, he became a shooter.

You frequently hear how a kid with some flaw in the form, gets coached up and that flaw is corrected.

I do agree that best case is the kid has a great form coming in and is a terrific shooter. CAM has not delivered those players.
 
Not sure I agree with this. Take Vic for example. I don't think he came to IU known as a shooter but, I assume, through hard work and coaching, he became a shooter.

You frequently hear how a kid with some flaw in the form, gets coached up and that flaw is corrected.

I do agree that best case is the kid has a great form coming in and is a terrific shooter. CAM has not delivered those players.
True knock down shooters are born, AND made... they continue to work at it. Those are the Alfords, Roths, etc... but someone with some touch, feel and form can develop into respectable shooters. That's our only hope for this team. Phin, Durham, Franklin and Hunter need to be spending an extra hour or two a day shooting, get them in the best frame of mind, and some confidence... and if Lander can ever shoot. The high water mark for this team is to be respectable or average. We've got to focus on just taking good 3s... and getting the ball to TJD whenever we can. He needs to get 18-20 shots every game. Once we get in the half court he needs to touch the ball every possession.
 
Neither. I miss Kelvin Sampson’s teams. While he may have been a Grey Area Operator, I wish he were still here. It’s not like the NCAA cares about shady dealings anyways.

The NCAA may not...but IU grads do.

And that wasn't "grey", that was lack of respect for the university and our degrees. And no, I am not talking about the phone calls nearly as much as the academics and off-court BS.
 
Neither. I miss Kelvin Sampson’s teams. While he may have been a Grey Area Operator, I wish he were still here. It’s not like the NCAA cares about shady dealings anyways.
Many here wanted the former Tennessee scumbag... now Auburn Tiger scumbag.... because he can really coach... How's that working out for Auburn now? Sorry but integrity is a whole lot more important than winning. There was nothing "grey" about Sampson. He did whatever the hell he wanted with the shadow of Oklahoma looming over him. He may win a title with the Cougars but Louisville "won" a title in 2013 also.
 
Not sure I agree with this. Take Vic for example. I don't think he came to IU known as a shooter but, I assume, through hard work and coaching, he became a shooter.

You frequently hear how a kid with some flaw in the form, gets coached up and that flaw is corrected.

I do agree that best case is the kid has a great form coming in and is a terrific shooter. CAM has not delivered those players.

I think it was more due to him , I remember as a freshman I was kind of wondering why we recruited him
 
True knock down shooters are born, AND made... they continue to work at it. Those are the Alfords, Roths, etc... but someone with some touch, feel and form can develop into respectable shooters. That's our only hope for this team. Phin, Durham, Franklin and Hunter need to be spending an extra hour or two a day shooting, get them in the best frame of mind, and some confidence... and if Lander can ever shoot. The high water mark for this team is to be respectable or average. We've got to focus on just taking good 3s... and getting the ball to TJD whenever we can. He needs to get 18-20 shots every game. Once we get in the half court he needs to touch the ball every possession.

Alford was a gym rat, now its AAU vs just practicing shot after shot. You cant cram all the yrs he spent before he set foot on IU in a short time but they have to be able to try and help. Confidence is a huge part. Landers shot is so bad at the college level I'm not sure they can fix it. Just have to get him wide wide open
 
I hate it when the Hoosiers lose, but I can wholeheartedly cheer for the team that played last night. They weren't trying to look cool, they looked like they cared about competing and they gave max effort. They played fantastic defense and just played the game with a toughness that many of us older folks really appreciate because it does bring back memories of Coach Knight's really good teams. That effort and toughness will translate to wins. Go Hoosiers!!!
Agree they don't try to be cool, but they also seem lifeless at times. No emotion or spark like the football team.

They majority of them act like Jay Edwards out there, but without the talent he had.
 
but could have won.


Hell, yes they could have..... by as much as double digits. Way too many open looks that clanged, way too many second/third chances by FSU and way too many bounces/balls that went to the Seminoles.

My kingdom for a true assassin, shooter....

McHoop
 
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Agree they don't try to be cool, but they also seem lifeless at times. No emotion or spark like the football team.

They majority of them act like Jay Edwards out there, but without the talent he had.
Yeah, it's just not a fiery team. TJD, as great as he is, and he is great, is about as emotionless as you can be and make the # of plays he does. It would be great if we had 1 energy/enthusiasm guy on this team. We don't have the bad attitude guys (Green and Smith) but it's still just a bunch of nice kids who aren't overly fiery or emotional.
 
Hell, yes they could have..... by as much as double digits. Way too many open looks that clanged, way too many second/third chances by FSU and way too many bounces/balls that went to the Seminoles.

My kingdom for a true assassin, shooter....

McHoop
According to Leary in the post game, we had an 8 rebound advantage with 3 minutes left in the game, and yet we end up even on rebounds at the end. That tells you how the last 8 minutes went: Way too many 2nd and even 3rd chances for FSU.
 
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I don't think it's shooters per se, it's talent.

This 'Indiana first' recruiting has made us a high quality mid major in regards to talent.

The majority of the Indiana kids who have come in can't hit the side of a barn and are at a physical disadvantage.

Again, high mid major talent.

Doesn't have to be one and dones but if the state can't produce high major talent, Archie has to recognize that and go out and get it.

Even the so called supreme talent has been grossly overrated, other than TJD.

Romeo was skinny and couldn't hit water from the ocean.

Lander hasn't hit anything yet and looks like he should be playing BNL, not FSU.

So with our mid major guards we're doing what we can. Playing solid defense and finally attacking offensively (except Rob. He's never in a hurry. I'm putting the over on ten second violations at four with the shortened season. He just walks the ball up the court. No hurry, just killing clock for no reason).


I agree that Archie has been too focused on recruiting Indiana kids. Damezi is the best example.

Our out-of-state recruiting has been poor........one borderline top 50 out-of-stater who to this point has been disappointing.
 
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Agree they don't try to be cool, but they also seem lifeless at times. No emotion or spark like the football team.

They majority of them act like Jay Edwards out there, but without the talent he had.
Any way Jay could get those 2 yrs back? He could be our spot up shooter right now I bet and be better than anyone we have.
 
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Yeah, it's just not a fiery team. TJD, as great as he is, and he is great, is about as emotionless as you can be and make the # of plays he does. It would be great if we had 1 energy/enthusiasm guy on this team. We don't have the bad attitude guys (Green and Smith) but it's still just a bunch of nice kids who aren't overly fiery or emotional.


yes...'it is what it is' in that regard. Galloway, Leal & Geronimo (and Al) have the best attitudes, but none have enough game at this point. At least they played hard last night....loved the effort, just not the results.....but can't blame the players.
 
To show how my priorities have shifted over the years...last night I wrapped up work (at home) around 430pm cst and immediately started continuing our interior painting project in our house. Squeezed in dinner, continued painting...completely forgot about the game. Finally hit me around 9pm that I had forgotten..and forgot to set the DVR. So all I have are recaps, comments, and box score.

I think this team may show moderate improvement from last year, but the strength of the B1G might make that improvement difficult to show in the overall record. I am getting increasingly more concerned about the 2-3 yr future. We know that CAM has underachieved in the class of 2021 recruiting battle. But in looking at last night's box score, I see that our freshman class managed a grand total of 0 points and 1 rebound in a combined 27 minutes of play. Lander is not a 5 star, Geronimo is starting to pile up the DNP-CD, Galloway looks like a player but is underwhelming in the box score, and Leal isn't going to see the floor this year. I'm starting to get an uneasy feeling about the team by the time we get to 2023 and beyond.
 
yes...'it is what it is' in that regard. Galloway, Leal & Geronimo (and Al) have the best attitudes, but none have enough game at this point. At least they played hard last night....loved the effort, just not the results.....but can't blame the players.
Curious how you can say that. Leal and Geronimo have barely seen the floor. I thought Jordan might be tasked with just coming in and staying in front of and harassing Barnes last night... 0 minutes.
 
To show how my priorities have shifted over the years...last night I wrapped up work (at home) around 430pm cst and immediately started continuing our interior painting project in our house. Squeezed in dinner, continued painting...completely forgot about the game. Finally hit me around 9pm that I had forgotten..and forgot to set the DVR. So all I have are recaps, comments, and box score.

I think this team may show moderate improvement from last year, but the strength of the B1G might make that improvement difficult to show in the overall record. I am getting increasingly more concerned about the 2-3 yr future. We know that CAM has underachieved in the class of 2021 recruiting battle. But in looking at last night's box score, I see that our freshman class managed a grand total of 0 points and 1 rebound in a combined 27 minutes of play. Lander is not a 5 star, Geronimo is starting to pile up the DNP-CD, Galloway looks like a player but is underwhelming in the box score, and Leal isn't going to see the floor this year. I'm starting to get an uneasy feeling about the team by the time we get to 2023 and beyond.
Choppy game, offensive struggles for both teams, shooting nearly did FSU in and did do us in. As for the freshmen, they’ve been vastly overrated here for several months, though reality is setting in. Lander obviously has potential, but he’s not a transformational talent who could step in and compete at a high level early. And he’s easily the best of the group. Some days they’ll probably look really good but many others they’ll look over their heads. A decent but far from superlative class will do that.
 
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We do seem to be getting a little better each season but the problem for Archie is that he really needed a major step forward this season not a small one and the B1G is absolutely loaded. Next season could very well be a total train wreck if TJD and that is very likely. There's no way he gets a 6th year if that happens.
 
Choppy game, offensive struggles for both teams, shooting nearly did FSU in and did do us in. As for the freshmen, they’ve been vastly overrated here for several months, though reality is setting in. Lander obviously has potential, but he’s not a transformational talent who could step in and compete at a high level early. And he’s easily the best of the group. Some days they’ll probably look really good but many others they’ll look over their heads. A decent but far from superlative class will do that.
our guard core is a very underwhelming group of shooters. The numbers from last night's game are atrocious. I just don't get it....never thought I'd see the day where the IU men's program was known for it's abundance of poor shooting. I grew up watching Whitman, Kitch, Alford...Calbert, Jay....never thought I'd see the day. It's ucken fugly to watch.
 
To show how my priorities have shifted over the years...last night I wrapped up work (at home) around 430pm cst and immediately started continuing our interior painting project in our house. Squeezed in dinner, continued painting...completely forgot about the game. Finally hit me around 9pm that I had forgotten..and forgot to set the DVR. So all I have are recaps, comments, and box score.

I think this team may show moderate improvement from last year, but the strength of the B1G might make that improvement difficult to show in the overall record. I am getting increasingly more concerned about the 2-3 yr future. We know that CAM has underachieved in the class of 2021 recruiting battle. But in looking at last night's box score, I see that our freshman class managed a grand total of 0 points and 1 rebound in a combined 27 minutes of play. Lander is not a 5 star, Geronimo is starting to pile up the DNP-CD, Galloway looks like a player but is underwhelming in the box score, and Leal isn't going to see the floor this year. I'm starting to get an uneasy feeling about the team by the time we get to 2023 and beyond.

This year has always looked, to me, to be similar to the Crean 1 seed year. It’s taken miller 4 years to get to this point, and I am concerned that this year will be the apex of his IU tenure.

Last night was a very solid effort. But, what does this team look like after TJD leaves?

As a coach he should be planning on losing TJD, Brunk and Durham after this year. And then Phin and Race after next year.

Seems like we have this year to make our impact. And lots of questions for the inevitable rebuild.
 
our guard core is a very underwhelming group of shooters. The numbers from last night's game are atrocious. I just don't get it....never thought I'd see the day where the IU men's program was known for it's abundance of poor shooting. I grew up watching Whitman, Kitch, Alford...Calbert, Jay....never thought I'd see the day. It's ucken fugly to watch.
Yep, we always had guys who could shoot from the perimeter, even pre-3 pointer. We don’t now, obviously, and it makes defending us infinitely easier. TJD is a very good player, but he’s our only consistent threat offensively, and it’s clear he’s the only guy who scares our opposition.
 
Yep, we always had guys who could shoot from the perimeter, even pre-3 pointer. We don’t now, obviously, and it makes defending us infinitely easier. TJD is a very good player, but he’s our only consistent threat offensively, and it’s clear he’s the only guy who scares our opposition.
for years I have heard about increased bench presses and 48 in vertical leaps. Pictures of before/after shots of our guys with their shirts off and muscles flexed. But no signs of improved shooting. Especially from the guys on the perimeter who should be shooters.

I hate calling out individual players and I have been a fan of Rob P. But look at last night...played all 40 minutes....2-10 from the field, 2 assists, no rebounds. Regardless of his defense (which I cannot comment on , since I missed the game) you're forcing your team to play 4 on 5 on the offensive side with those numbers. And I don't know how someone can play all 40 minutes in a game that saw 126 total shots (80 of which were misses) and not blindly walk into a couple rebounds..??

Box score does not always tell the whole story, but that is a very bad stat line from a PG who played the entire game.

At least we seem to be shooting FTs a little better this year. So far.
 
I'd still be interested to hear more about that kid from Hartford City can't recall his name? I know he is slight but so is Lander and it seemed like he could really shoot
 
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