Starting 5

[TR32]

TJD
Race
Kopp
XJ
JHS

Geronimo and Reneau are really both 4's and Kopp has started 100 games. Bates or Galloway could be a 3rd guard against some teams.

Gunn is likely not quite ready for big minutes but if ever there was a team need, it is shooting. Anyone who can shoot will see floor time. No reason why Leal wouldn't get a shot before Gunn though.

What's amazing is that Banks seems to be unnecessary as a frosh despite being a really talented 6'8" kid. If he can guard a wing, he may back up Kopp.

 

[Beorik]

I don't want JG playing the 3 with his current skill set!

Agree. He still had a ways to go at the end of last season to be an effective 3 imo. Even further to to go be a 2 though.

 

[Beorik]

TJD
Race
Kopp
XJ
JHS

Geronimo and Reneau are really both 4's and Kopp has started 100 games. Bates or Galloway could be a 3rd guard against some teams.

Gunn is likely not quite ready for big minutes but if ever there was a team need, it is shooting. Anyone who can shoot will see floor time. No reason why Leal wouldn't get a shot before Gunn though.

What's amazing is that Banks seems to be unnecessary as a frosh despite being a really talented 6'8" kid. If he can guard a wing, he may back up Kopp.

Banks is an interesting prospect to me as well. Already seems to have some perimeter game.

 

[bsmitty08]

Pretty easy answer. Both Vic and Ivey are athletic enough and strong enough (in college) to guard most teams 3s. Therefore they would be considered the 3. Many teams including the two you listed play 3 guard lineups though. Much of it is about matching up to your opponents.

Would you want sasha on Vic all game? Hell no. Would you want Hulls on Ivey all game? Hell no.

You wouldn’t want either Hulls or Sasha or Rob or Leal guarding any true 3 because they are all 1s or 1/2s. Some players can play either but many cannot. You would never want the above players playing a 3 for long periods. You would never want Kopp or Geronimo playing a 2 with their current skill set.

Edit - Sasha is probably closer to a hybrid 2/3 than I thought at 6’5” so he could probably play a bit of both offensively. He just can’t guard either.

Exactly my point…you play your three best guards and you guard buy matchup. Next year we shouldn’t start Kopp because he is a “true” 3. Play X, Bates and Hood

 

[rocketo]

Could be ten. I bet it settles a bit. I think woody was forced to play ten. Just didn’t have enough talent. I’d argue with better talent you don’t need to go as far into the bench.

I suppose that is certainly a possibility. Woody also doesn’t seem like the type to make PT promises. The thing I do like about going a bit deeper into the bench is the experience those deep second and third tier players get. Most development happens in practice and workouts, but game experience is different and helps.

Either way, I trust Woody to make the right calls.

 

[ufo33]

C. Reneau
PF. Trayce
SF Race/Geronimo
SG Xavier
PG Schifino

 

[mohepa]

Can we please let everyone practice and work on their games before we make definitive statements about who should play at what spot and how many minutes? I could see Bates and JG both starting. I could also see them coming off the bench. In a lot of ways, it is up to them and not only if they work hard, but must work harder than the guys pushing them. This is why depth is so critical. The 5 that work the hardest and improve should start. No idea who that will be yet.

 

[bsmitty08]

C. Reneau
PF. Trayce
SF Race/Geronimo
SG Xavier
PG Schifino

That is an awful lineup

 

[BusdriverE]

Based on what woody did last year, he gave the subs a chance and if they played well, would stay in or got more minutes in the 2nd half. What I didn't like was the way he stayed with the same starting 5 all year even when some were being outplayed by bench players and think he will do the same this yr. I think the bench will be better and maybe he will switch starting 5s throughout the year

 

[Hoosier Clarion]

Paper tigers until proven otherwise. I do not need to watch Tamars sticky hands dribbling until forcing a bad shot then blowing it on D.

D is absolutely Frosh nemesis in CBB. Even Bates who I do believe makes a big jump to better results this season has to bring a defensive game as improved as his offensive prowess. Woodson players playing the best defense play the most.

 

[Champs1976]

Tamar will. Guaranteed. I’ve never been so nostradumbass in my IU sports history.

So he didn't live up to your hype last year, but you are absolutely sure he will live up to your hype this year? I hope so, but what indications do you have that progress is being made? Have you seen him in the weight room and he's gotten a lot stronger? Have you dseen his footwark and anticipation on d improve? What exactly is it that guarntees he will be the superstar you say he is? A lot of folks on this board would like to know. Or is it just optimism that he improves like the rest of us have?

 

[MG80]

Laughable. Who do you put in his place that’s proven? JG sure isn’t. Bates isn’t. Not yet at least. JG was terrible at the 3. He was ok at the 4 but not starting level good.

JHS just led 2 straight high school teams to the national title. It’s hard to believe he wouldn’t be a starter on a team that has been weak at the guard position. If, and of course a big if, Bates has greatly improved after a summer of development, I’d expect him to start at the wing. He can create offense. So IMO X, JHS, Tamar, Race and TJD as starters with JG, Malik and Galloway first 3 off bench.

 

[Aloha Hoosier]

Then we suck again

Holy crap! The season is still months away and our Negative Nancy Whine Club is already in midseason perpetually pessimistic form.

 

[Crossblock]

I'm not as concerned with the starting 5 as I am with Who is on the floor during crunch time closing out games. I hope We can find at least 5 guys w ho have a Free Throw Percentage of 75% or more. I would also like to have a guy Who can come off the Bench to provide 20 to 25 minutes a game and provide a spark and hopefully instant Offense.

 

[bsmitty08]

Holy crap! The season is still months away and our Negative Nancy Whine Club is already in midseason perpetually pessimistic form.

Yes I’m response to someone’s comment. Playing the exact same lineup but adding Bates for Stewart doesn’t make this team much better.

 

[TomEric4756]

I know this has been discussed and debated, but curious what the board sees as the starting 5 next year. We have two five start freshman coming in. We were devoid of shooting a year ago. A true Achilles heal. I have learned to tamper expectations as we have seen each year the early season hype does not match the end result. Regardless, who is starting and will we finally see an offense that features TJD taking 15 footers with consistency and knocking them down?

Xavier
Tamar
Geronimo
Race
TJD

This presumes none of the incoming wings don’t outperform any incumbents. Or better, the incumbents are hungry enough to work hard this summer so it doesn’t happen.

 

[Brockettman]

Like someone said above , let the team have some practices so the coaches can see who works well together and who doesn’t . Also I hope Woody doesn’t have a set line up , and that’s the way it stays all year . You need to earn your playing time , and it should be based on who is playing the best at that time . No entitlement here , your playing time is determined by effort , and team chemistry, not the number of stars behind your name .

 

[Victorbmyboy]

JHS just led 2 straight high school teams to the national title. It’s hard to believe he wouldn’t be a starter on a team that has been weak at the guard position. If, and of course a big if, Bates has greatly improved after a summer of development, I’d expect him to start at the wing. He can create offense. So IMO X, JHS, Tamar, Race and TJD as starters with JG, Malik and Galloway first 3 off bench.

You are missing a bigger thing to Woody. Who’s most consistent on defense? Kopp and Trey both are never out of position. That’s why(at lest) early they will probably start. I know everyone wants more exciting (dynamic)players. If you look at trends defense is more important. The average scoring in the sweet 16 is below 80 points. IU averaged 70. So what makes them 5-8 points better? It wasn’t perimeter scoring. It was hitting the easy shots and free throws.

 

[bsmitty08]

You are missing a bigger thing to Woody. Who’s most consistent on defense? Kopp and Trey both are never out of position. That’s why(at lest) early they will probably start. I know everyone wants more exciting (dynamic)players.

If elite talent can’t come in and play right away at IU, Woody will stop landing it.

 

[Victorbmyboy]

If elite talent can’t come in and play right away at IU, Woody will stop landing it.

Lol I’m glad you aren’t our coach.

 

[bsmitty08]

Lol I’m glad you aren’t our coach.

Do explain?

 

[Aloha Hoosier]

Lol I’m glad you aren’t our coach.

You got that right. Not sure if he was one of those that were saying Lander should start every game, but several of the perpetually pessimistic posters did. Thank God they don’t coach the team.

 

[Victorbmyboy]

You got that right. Not sure if he was one of those that were saying Lander should start every game, but several of the perpetually pessimistic posters did. Thank God they don’t coach the team.

It’s funny. “You play your 3 best guards”. Best at what? Woody covets defense. If you can be consistent at defense and do what he asks it doesn’t matter if you are superior in everything else. He won’t compromise. We saw him bench players for getting lost on 1 play.

 

[bsmitty08]

It’s funny. “You play your 3 best guards”. Best at what? Woody covets defense. If you can be consistent at defense and do what he asks it doesn’t matter if you are superior in everything else. He won’t compromise. We saw him bench players for getting lost on 1 play.

How did that workout with our win/loss? Not good. Woody needs to improve just like the kids do.

 

[Victorbmyboy]

How did that workout with our win/loss? Not good. Woody needs to improve just like the kids do.

You don’t know? He tried playing those better players only to watch them f’up. So really, tell us who should’ve played on that 21 win team?

 

[bsmitty08]

You don’t know? He tried playing those better players only to watch them f’up. So really, tell us who should’ve played on that 21 win team?

JG should have taken more of Kopps minutes, should have seen more of Bates and less Stewart. Our offense was brutal and woody didn’t address it. Like I said play your 3 best offensive guards if u plan on starting to post guys

 

[T.M.P.]

C. Reneau
PF. Trayce
SF Race/Geronimo
SG Xavier
PG Schifino

lol ..........................

 

[T.M.P.]

JG should have taken more of Kopps minutes, should have seen more of Bates and less Stewart.

Do you have lineup effectiveness charts handy?

Unless you do ...

 

[bsmitty08]

Do you have lineup effectiveness charts handy?

Unless you do ...

Did you watch us last year?

 

[Victorbmyboy]

JG should have taken more of Kopps minutes, should have seen more of Bates and less Stewart. Our offense was brutal and woody didn’t address it. Like I said play your 3 best offensive guards if u plan on starting to post guys

You just showed why people don’t listen to you. JG was atrocious at the 3 when woody was forced to play him there. I’m glad Woody didn’t address that. More to the game than offense.

 

[aajohn2000]

This presumes none of the incoming wings don’t outperform any incumbents. Or better, the incumbents are hungry enough to work hard this summer so it doesn’t happen.

No one is displacing Race, X or TJD. To me, the only TBD’s are the other guard and 3 spot. Last year these spots were taken by Kopp and Stewart. With how Geronimo finished last season and is someone who I see as having the highest ceiling in our roster, it’s tough to not see him starting. His biggest question mark is defense. And I think that will be improved. Regardless, I am more interested in seeing how our shooting improves, specifically our guards, than I am the starting lineup. It won’t be long and we will find out.

 

[bsmitty08]

You just showed why people don’t listen to you. JG was atrocious at the 3 when woody was forced to play him there. I’m glad Woody didn’t address that. More to the game than offense.

Just like more to the game then defense. We lost to teams with much lesser talent because our offense was so poor. Penn st and Nw to be specific

 

[Victorbmyboy]

No one is displacing Race, X or TJD. To me, the only TBD’s are the other guard and 3 spot. Last year these spots were taken by Kopp and Stewart. With how Geronimo finished last season and is someone who I see as having the highest ceiling in our roster, it’s tough to not see him starting. His biggest question mark is defense. And I think that will be improved. Regardless, I am more interested in seeing how our shooting improves, specifically our guards, than I am the starting lineup. It won’t be long and we will find out.

JG couldn’t crack the starting lineup at the 4 let alone play the 3 effectively. What makes everyone assume he’s starting at the 3 over Kopp all of a sudden. He was terrible trying to close out or guard 3s. Not saying he won’t ever but in 9 months?

 

[Victorbmyboy]

Just like more to the game then defense. We lost to teams with much lesser talent because our offense was so poor. Penn st and Nw to be specific

Lol. NW were JG started at the 3?

 

[T.M.P.]

Did you watch us last year?

Yes.

Do you have the chart or not? Without it it's nothing but a guess ..

It's not as simple as insert player 1 who has better stats into slot B and the lineup gains efficiency. It's why teams use a lineup efficiency stat of some type. What if putting JG in there decreased TJD, RTs effectiveness or the team in general, even though his effectiveness would be better than Kopps?

Also, one person out of position during a set can ruin that set. That person was Jordan and Bates, not Kopp or Stewart. Also, one person out of position on defense can create a hole the defense can exploit. That person was again Geronimo and Bates, not Kopp or Stewart.

Kopp and Stew may have been slow AF but they knew where they were supposed to be and didn't make silly mental errors. We all wanted Bates and Jordan to play and do well, but they had to fix the mental errors first .... hopefully, both are much better this year.

Let the coach, coach.

 

[bsmitty08]

Yes.

Do you have the chart or not? Without it it's nothing but a guess ..

It's not as simple as insert player 1 who has better stats into slot B and the lineup gains efficiency. It's why teams use a lineup efficiency stat of some type. What if putting JG in there decreased TJD, RTs effectiveness or the team in general, even though his effectiveness would be better than Kopps?

Also, one person out of position during a set can ruin that set. That person was Jordan and Bates, not Kopp or Stewart. Also, one person out of position on defense can create a hole the defense can exploit. That person was again Geronimo and Bates, not Kopp or Stewart.

Kopp and Stew may have been slow AF but they new where they were supposed to be and didn't make silly mental errors. We all wanted Bates and Jordan to play and do well, but they had to fix the mental errors first .... hopefully, both are much better this year.

So based off your post, we shouldn’t expect to be any better next year?

 

[Victorbmyboy]

Yes.

Do you have the chart or not? Without it it's nothing but a guess ..

It's not as simple as insert player 1 who has better stats into slot B and the lineup gains efficiency. It's why teams use a lineup efficiency stat of some type. What if putting JG in there decreased TJD, RTs effectiveness or the team in general, even though his effectiveness would be better than Kopps?

Also, one person out of position during a set can ruin that set. That person was Jordan and Bates, not Kopp or Stewart. Also, one person out of position on defense can create a hole the defense can exploit. That person was again Geronimo and Bates, not Kopp or Stewart.

Exactly. Like how many times did one of those players shoot an I’ll advised shot and then the guy that player was supposed to guard go down and hit a 3. That play didn’t cost us 3 points it cost us 5 or 6. JG and Bates did that a lot. JG less so.

 

[.Gerdis]

You are missing a bigger thing to Woody. Who’s most consistent on defense? Kopp and Trey both are never out of position. That’s why(at lest) early they will probably start. I know everyone wants more exciting (dynamic)players. If you look at trends defense is more important. The average scoring in the sweet 16 is below 80 points. IU averaged 70. So what makes them 5-8 points better? It wasn’t perimeter scoring. It was hitting the easy shots and free throws.

It was also closing games.

If you take last years team, and the team improves/learns how to close out games, we could have easily been 3-4 games better in conference play.

A few missed bunnies here
A poor defensive rotation
A turnover
A missed free throw

Those things killed us late.,,. But, wait for it:

you can learn to close out games, You can learn to be clutch. You can improve.

I’ll pencil in the four returning starters and slide Trey in to Parker’s slot. I don’t care that he’s “not a 2” and “can’t shoot”. He has shown he can break down off the dribble and score. Oh, and the offense moves much better with him out there.

X
Trey
kopp (and I suspect he will be en fuego)
Race
TJD

Hood-S will slide into Phins minutes.
Geronimo will get plenty of time off the bench as an energy guy.

Bates? To me he’s a big ? mark. I think it’s expected that he takes the same sort of Jump that we saw Franklin make. We’ll see. One thing I do notice is that posters here always mention him and confidence in the same sentence. Whether or not it’s a problem or it’s an asset (and I’ve seen it said he’s going to be a stud b/c no one is more confident and also said that he just lacked confidence last year- odd).

 

[baileyiu]

JG should have taken more of Kopps minutes, should have seen more of Bates and less Stewart. Our offense was brutal and woody didn’t address it. Like I said play your 3 best offensive guards if u plan on starting to post guys

So wrong - JG was not capable of playing the 3 last year(offensively or defensively), not convinced he will be capable this year

 

[bsmitty08]

Exactly. Like how many times did one of those players shoot an I’ll advised shot and then the guy that player was supposed to guard go down and hit a 3. That play didn’t cost us 3 points it cost us 5 or 6. JG and Bates did that a lot. JG less so.

So what is the answer chief? Keep same lineup next year and keep banging our head against the wall on why we can’t score?