I don't see them as the type I am describing. Max may be a great pickup but Michigan wasn't very concerned losing him
Some thoughts going into the season...
- Thread starter JB_Nomee
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This is exactly my point. More weight gets put on a good backcourt than a good frontcourt. Look at UConn a couple years ago. They had GREAT guards and pretty good frontcourt players. Show me a team that won the NC that had average guards and a GREAT frontcourt.
Dude you've seen TWO EXHIBITION GAMES. How you can draw this conclusion already is mind blowing. You should be a talent evaluator for some NBA team because your eye is second to none!
Clearly I didn't say that as you obviously forgot about the expectations I posted not too long ago. I think this team absolutely should make it further than the Sweet 16, but it's all about matchups and a little bit of luck in the tourney.
But we know your stance. We don't have two seven footers so we're likely to be battling Northwestern, Illinois and Minnesota in the B10 for the last spot in the NCAA Tournament. NO POST DEPTH.
I don't understand why you don't see that as an issue? Every team in the country carries multiple bigs that can play. We haven't and we constantly hear on TV how we don't have any frontcourt depth. It will hurt us this year...we are a rolled ankle from having the same team as last year.
Uhhhhhhhh. I DO think it's an issue. It could absolutely be an issue. I just don't think Bryant is going to have 3 fouls in the first 5 minutes of each game we play. Zeller and Vonleh played a ton of minutes. Why is Bryant going to be different?
Every team in the country, huh? I can guarantee I can find several teams that have one guy 6'10 or bigger and then other players that are 6'8/6'9. If you're crying over ONE INCH in height (which can be negated with how long a player is), then I don't think anyone can help you. And apparently Beilfeldt being 6'8 isn't a big man. OG being 6'8 couldn't be a good spot filler. Morgan couldn't fill that spot for a few minutes either, huh? I guess being one or two inches short really will make or break our season. Crazy.
I don't understand why you don't coach. You're clearly more in the know than our staff.
I never said 6'10 in fact 6'8 is fine but its also about skill set and strength. Maryland had stone, layman, carter. Msu has Davis, Costello, schilling, pu has Hammons Swanigan and haas plus Taylor and Edwards. My entire issue is out roster construction. You are playing with fire by only carrying one true post player. In a year if we land Davis we will have a deep frontcourt. Bryant and Davis with morgan and OG a year stronger. You see the same issue as I do but you are arguing with me about it. I am thi king big picture and want to be elite then you need to build your roster like the big boys do. Duke yes the best team has jeter, Plumlee, Vrankovic as true 5's then they have Jefferson and Ingram at 6'8 or 9 4's.
And you're writing off our players when you've seen TWO EXHIBITION GAMES. That's my issue. How you can draw any definitive conclusions from those two games is beyond me. As others have pointed out, plenty of good teams struggle early with exhibition games and go on to have great years. You can't draw much from our two games. You just can't. Now, after next week, we can have a real conversation about the team. We'll have three regular season games under our belt with one coming from Creighton who should be solid (not sure how good, but I assume pretty tough). You're getting worked up and worried about an extremely small sample size that I would argue doesn't even represent what we'll likely see for most of the season. Bryant played only 16 minutes the second game. I can guarantee he'll average more than that on the year.
So you already know what our guys will or won't be able to do? OG, Morgan, Beilfelt and Bryant? Three of those guys you've never seen play at the college level except for the two games. You've got your mind made up already. I say why not wait until we see what happens over the next few games?
wtf??
He was the 6th leading scorer on the 2012-13 team. And he was carrying IU at the end of the year? No wonder we lost to Syracuse . . .
Again, what is your definition of a point guard?
Is it a guys who can score and fill up the stat sheet? Yogi fits the bill. But just WHY did Yogi have to "carry" us so much last year - could it be that he doesn't get guys the ball in a position they can score?
Remember the Maryland game last year - where Yogi forced up a 3 from the top of the arc at the end of the game? And had Troy Williams WIDE open underneath?
How about the Iowa game last year at AH? Iowa had gone in front by double digits until IU made a run in the second half, cutting the Hawkeye lead to 6 on a three in the corner by Zeisloft on a pass from Yogi. Iowa goes down and misses, Yogi pushes the ball quickly upcourt and has Zeisloft in the EXACT same spot hit just hit from. As a PG in this situation, you have to know who your hot shooter is.
What does Yogi do? He jacks up a WILD 3 from the top, which misses badly and leads to an Iowa fast break-and-1 that pushed the lead back to 9. IU was never closer than that again.
Yogi has talent. No argument there. But his game has no LEADERSHIP. How many times have you seen him point guys into position? How many times you seen him get in a guys face about not playing D? Or for that matter, lead by example . . .
Your PG is supposed to run the offense. Unfortunately with Yogi, he tries to BE the offense - which is why he ends up "carrying" IU.
they have 3 pretty good guards in Yogi, JBJ and Rob and a nice role player in Ziesloft.
I agree, they're pretty good. Maybe even very good. None of them are great, however.
I thought Hartman was one of our better players last year. He always seems to be in the right place. If he goes down it would be a huge loss.
I wouldn't expect Bielfeldt to start much during the Big Ten. Hopefully by that time the freshen will be ready to play more meaningful minutes.
I think that Ryan Burton can help us. One thing about him is that he doesn't make too many stupid plays. Remember: the mental to physical in basketball is 4 to 1. I always look at what a player can do and not what he can't do.
I don't have an issue with your other comments. Go Hoosiers!
He said this:
Why say "since his freshman year ended" if you only mean the last two years? The way he had it written can be read as saying "Yogi had to start carrying the load at the end of that year"; he was emphasizing how much of a load Yogi carries.
Regardless, it still doesn't change what Yogi is: A player with immense talents that doesn't maximize the play of his teammates.
Of course I didn't mean he had to carry the load his freshman year. His last 2 seasons he's had to, I hope that clears it up for you lol
And I hope it clears it up for you that IU has been mediocre the last two years with Yogi as the leader of the team. Speakes volumes on his leadership abilities - or lack thereof.
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Good post. Juwan will play a lot. May even be a starter by the end of the year. I too like his defensive positioning and his quicker reaction time.
Troy has improved defensively. Keeping him out of foul trouble is the key. Troy is the player that can take over games when he is playing well. He will be a key on winning this year more than Yogi.
Yogi is a good shooter and ball handler. He is our best defender off the ball. He is a very good rebounder. Yogis shortcomings are transition defense because of his size, and he does not feed the post very well. He is a very good player and because of his size everything he does is spectacular. IU needs him this year no doubt.
RJ is a better defender for iu but has to become more efficient on offense. If he plays within himself and eliminates the easy mistakes like 1 handed passes and risky drives he could be very valuable.
JBJ is smooth more than quick. We need to see if he gets his quickness back. Same with Colin. Both good players but concern extended amounts of time will lead to injury.
Starters now..Yogi JBJ Troy Max Thomas
Starters later. Yogi RJ Troy Juwan Thomas
Good grief, he didn't say that, he said we are one rolled ankle from last year's team.
Yes, we have not seen three of them play at the college level because they haven't. Is it too much to expect at least some of our freshmen behave like freshmen? Especially freshmen bigs. Or do we assume they all are of Zeller-like effectiveness? Maybe they will have a year like jbj, not exactly set the world on fire but show promise.
To be truthful, I think bsmitty is being pretty positive about the owner of those ankles.
Hey - a reasoned approach based on REALITY doesn't roll very well with some of the Faithful . . .
You clearly haven't watched Kris Dunn. He's the best point guard in college basketball, and it isn't even close.
I have seen a lot of Kris Dunn, and thanks for mentioning him because he definitely belongs in the list of elite PG's in the country. He is the best pro prospect out there because of his size and athleticism. I can see where people say he's the best in college but I definitely wouldn't say "it isn't even close".
To the couple of points you disagree with...
To clarify on Zeisloft, I simply meant game to game. He needs to play every game regardless because of his shooting. But within a given game if he's not getting shots up or is cold his minutes need to be cut.
Troy is crazy, always has been and always will be. That's his game and that's part of the reason he's so effective. He's a guy that when on is one of the most dominant players in the conference with his athleticism and length. This year we need more good Troy and less out of control Troy.
Your point on Bryant I think was spot on. He's a 2 and done guy to me. Definitely clumsy and not as polished around the rim as Zeller and Vonleh were coming in. He's going to bring it every single night though and that'll make him a very productive player.
You're big on Yogi, and you've seen a lot of Kris Dunn.
Ok, give us a breakdown on the strengths and weaknesses of both players. What is it about both/either player that leads you to believe they are a top-notch point guard?
Lets not act like that's some outlandish claim. Tons of people outside of IU fans believe Yogi is one of the top guards in the country. Top NBA prospect doesn't always mean top player.
yea i understand what you are saying now. Hopefully Bryant can be a 10 and 10 kinda guy. Prob only going to mostly get rebound points.
You can join in too, Snu.
Break it down for us. Who would you pick over the other, and why? What is it about Yogi's game that would rate his as good - if not better - that Dunn?
Sure.
Yogi's biggest attribute is his quickness, he is considered the hardest player to defend in the big ten amongst other big ten players. Very few can stay in front of him. He's a tremendous shooter, with a career mark at 39% from 3 point range and has improved every single season at Indiana in that category. A good distributer as well when he drives the lane (contrary to what you might believe) and is especially good at drive and kicks. He rarely turns the ball over, and with the amount he handles the ball for us this is especially impressive. At his size he's also an outstanding rebounder because of his strength.
Weaknesses for Yogi... first and foremost I do think there is some merit to the claim of poor shot selection. He does tend to jack up some ill-advised shots at times. At 6 foot (on a good day) size plays a factor in his defense against bigger guards. With his quickness I would like to see him become a little bit better of a defender and get more steals.
Kris Dunn's best attributes are his size and athleticism, something I already touched on. Dunn is a great distributor. He's a respectable outside shooter and we'll see if he improves that this season. Remember, last year was Dunn's first year of being the man at Providence (even then LaDontae Henton was probably their best player still). Good defender as well with his length and quickness.
He is turnover prone however, and as a point guard isn't that one of the most important things is not turning it over? A lot of his drives lead to out of control shots, which probably is a result of not having a lot of experience on the college level.
There is no argument from me on who the better pro prospect is...Dunn no question. And I completely respect anyone's opinion who thinks Dunn is a better college PG also. I just disagree with it and I certainly wouldn't say one is head and shoulders above the other. Give me Yogi and I like my chances.
KF is considered the hardest player to defend in the Big Ten? Sorry, Libby, but you're not thinking clearly.
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Interesting comments. . .thanks for putting yourself out there. Hope you're right about Troy. . .I'm not so sure he's there. Have higher hopes for Max. . .hope he is the junk yard dog kind of player who takes charges, gets rebounds and hustles.
From a big ten reporter at media day this year. Granted, it's only 1 person and what her definition of "almost every player" and who she asked are variables here but still.
Good stuff.
When I asked on your initial posting about how do you define the point guard position, it relates to what I believe is the focus they should have – making their team better. What should their focus be?
Stats tell you a lot. To me, it’s not just stats that shine in the newspaper stories, but those that are an indicator – and validator – of how you play.
Of course, shooting is a strength Yogi has over Dunn. The last two years Ferrell has shot the 3-pt shot at about 41% (170-417), as opposed to Dunn’s 34% (31-91 over 2 yrs; RS one season). But should Yogi shoot as many 3pt’s as he does? Look at these stats:
2012-13: 23-76 3prts; 147 asst; 75 TO’s
2013-14: 88-220 3prts; 125 asst; 84 TO’s
2014-15: 82-197 3prts; 166 asst; 65 TO’s
I know we graduated a number of scorers in 2013. But the next year you had Vonleh down low, and by all accounts he was never utilized the way he should have been. It goes back to Yogi trying to do too much.
One of the big complaints on Yogi (and compliments on Dunn) is defense. With his 6-4 frame and wide wingspan, Dunn is built to be a better defender. But just how much better?
Stats again tell the story:
Dunn
Fr – 29 Steals; 77 fouls (3 DQ’s)
So – 90 Steals; 101 fouls (1 DQ’s)
Yogi
Fr – 28 Steals; 60 fouls (0 DQ’s)
So – 24 Steals; 54 fouls (0 DQ’s)
Jr – 24 Steals; 59 fouls (0 DQ’s)
I know Yogi is smaller in stature than Dunn. But it’s pretty clear from looking at this the issue with Ferrell’s defense. See the correlation between # of fouls and # of steals? Numbers don’t lie. And Dunn did it with only fouling out 4 times.
And for those who want to make excuses for Yogi, here are the numbers for Aaron Craft’s Jr/Sr seasons at Ohio St.
Jr – 77 Steals; 69 fouls (1 DQ’s)
Sr – 89 Steals; 85 fouls (1 DQ’s)
Craft might have been two inches taller than Yogi, but Yogi is a TON quicker than Craft ever thought about being. But who got more out of their skills? And, again, Craft DQ'd only two times.
It is TOTALLY inexcusable for a player with the athletic ability of Ferrell to have these numbers. And it is totally understandable why Indiana’s defense has been poor the past two seasons. Yogi, as the PG and not only the leader of the team but the first line of defense up top, has done an extremely poor job of utilizing the talents he has.
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