"Some of our friends on this forum are racists."

CO. Hoosier

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You need to stand up on this one goat.

I responded in that thread with a post about the disingenuousness of the liberal lectures about racism, and you then accuse me of destroying the conversation. Fair is fair. Name names and give examples.
 

TheOriginalHappyGoat

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You need to stand up on this one goat.

I responded in that thread with a post about the disingenuousness of the liberal lectures about racism, and you then accuse me of destroying the conversation. Fair is fair. Name names and give examples.
Quote my entire post please. My answer is already there.
 

crazed_hoosier2

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Quote my entire post please. My answer is already there.
Can you link to it?

That's always been a pet peeve of mine (assuming you didn't name anybody as COH charges) -- just casting aspersions without being specific. People do it all the time in political discourse, and they're rarely called upon to be specific.

I remember when Andre Carson said there were members of Congress who would like to see black people hanging from trees. He refused to back away from the statement and I couldn't believe that nobody pressed him to offer names.
 
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TheOriginalHappyGoat

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Can you link to it?

That's always been a pet peeve of mine (assuming you didn't name anybody as COH charges) -- just casting aspersions without being specific. People do it all the time in political discourse, and they're rarely called upon to be specific.

I remember when Andre Carson said there were members of Congress who would like to see black people hanging from trees. He refused to back away from the statement and I couldn't believe that nobody pressed him to offer names.
In a discussion about the inane insistence on creating a leftist bogeyman to avoid outright condemnation of Nazis and Klansmen, I concluded that some posters must actually be sympathetic to their causes, or just incredibly stupid, but also that I cannot distinguish between the two.
 

crazed_hoosier2

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In a discussion about the inane insistence on creating a leftist bogeyman to avoid outright condemnation of Nazis and Klansmen, I concluded that some posters must actually be sympathetic to their causes, or just incredibly stupid, but also that I cannot distinguish between the two.
But you didn't name who?

Also, does that bogeyman really need to be "created"? The incidents of Antifa violence are quite real. Pointing that out doesn't require or imply any kind of defense for the Klan.
 

IUJIM

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Both sides-ism necessarily implied some moral equivalency. Anyone who thinks Antifa is the moral equivalent of the KKK is either a racist or an idiot.
And anyone who thinks Bin Laden is the moral equivalent of Hitler is either a racists or moron.
 

i'vegotwinners

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we're all racist to some degree. for some reason it seems to be human trait. (and consider ourselves to have complete domain over any living creature with less intelligence than humans).

the degree to which someone is racist, whether or how they act on it, or their ability to counter their own inherent racism, is important.

many are racists on both sides.

many are sexist on both sides.

and some who just try and get over on everyone for self gain, consider that as ok behavior, and basically consider themselves as inherently superior to, thus justifying any behavior they wish toward, anyone and everyone other than themselves.
 

TheOriginalHappyGoat

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Sure. This entire idea of trying to find a moral equivalency between the KKK and antifa is about as idiotic as determining a moral equivalency between Bin Laden and Hitler.
It is dumb. And yet, a number of your fellow conservatives insist on doing it. There are quite a few posts in a number of threads that claim Antifa is just as bad or worse than the KKK, or that Antifa and KKK are just two sides of the same hate coin. It's ridiculous. We shouldn't need to build some leftist equivalent in order to condemn white nationalism. We should just condemn white nationalism on its own account. No strings attached.
 

sglowrider

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we're all racist to some degree. for some reason it seems to be human trait. (and consider ourselves to have complete domain over any living creature with less intelligence than humans).

the degree to which someone is racist, whether or how they act on it, or their ability to counter their own inherent racism, is important.

many are racists on both sides.

many are sexist on both sides.

and some who just try and get over on everyone for self gain, consider that as ok behavior, and basically consider themselves as inherently superior to, thus justifying any behavior they wish toward, anyone and everyone other than themselves.

I agree that everyone has their prejudices. You become a racist when you take action on your racial prejudices. This narrows down the groups.

However, its becomes exponentially more dangerous when this racist group belongs to the predominant population in that country. That's the issue here.
It would be less threatening if there is some racist Asian gang out there trying to kick out all the whites in America right?
 
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IUBBALLAWOL

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Why does the right have to condemn things but the left gets a free pass. Because no one on the left is racist? If two ideas are wrong why does one have to be more wrong than the other. KKK,BLM,FACISTS,Nazi's and Antifa should not need equivalents. Wrong is wrong. The left likes to play this game and too many times the right takes the bait. Call a spade a spade and move on. Hate groups and thugs beating people with clubs and burning down cities need to be arrested and dealt with. Far more BLM thugs have done more damage than the KKK in the last few years yet somehow the right can not condemn the KKK enough and the left gets a free get out of jail card for all the thugs,arsonists and thieves. They are all wrong. Why try to make any of them equivalent?
 

sglowrider

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Why does the right have to condemn things but the left gets a free pass. Because no one on the left is racist? If two ideas are wrong why does one have to be more wrong than the other. KKK,BLM,FACISTS,Nazi's and Antifa should not need equivalents. Wrong is wrong. The left likes to play this game and too many times the right takes the bait. Call a spade a spade and move on. Hate groups and thugs beating people with clubs and burning down cities need to be arrested and dealt with. Far more BLM thugs have done more damage than the KKK in the last few years yet somehow the right can not condemn the KKK enough and the left gets a free get out of jail card for all the thugs,arsonists and thieves. They are all wrong. Why try to make any of them equivalent?

Your rationalisation or moral compass is in a pretzel due and thats being kind.

I see the KKK the moral equivalency as paedophiles. Therefore the 'antifas' are anti-peados. And the BLM folks are just defending against the acceptance of the KKKs.

And if you think the KKK isnt equivalent to paedophiles, there is the crux of the problem.

Hows that?
 
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TheOriginalHappyGoat

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Why does the right have to condemn things but the left gets a free pass. Because no one on the left is racist? If two ideas are wrong why does one have to be more wrong than the other. KKK,BLM,FACISTS,Nazi's and Antifa should not need equivalents. Wrong is wrong. The left likes to play this game and too many times the right takes the bait. Call a spade a spade and move on. Hate groups and thugs beating people with clubs and burning down cities need to be arrested and dealt with. Far more BLM thugs have done more damage than the KKK in the last few years yet somehow the right can not condemn the KKK enough and the left gets a free get out of jail card for all the thugs,arsonists and thieves. They are all wrong. Why try to make any of them equivalent?
See, @IUJIM - this is the kind of thing I am talking about.
 

Noodle

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Your rationalisation or moral compass is in a pretzel due and thats being kind.

I see the KKK the moral equivalency as paedophiles. Therefore the 'antifas' are anti-peados. And the BLM folks are just defending against the acceptance of the KKKs.

And if you think the KKK isnt equivalent to paedophiles, there is the crux of the problem.

Hows that?
Wow, this is bizarre. I was actually thinking of the very same analogy. If the white suprenacist/Nazis were instead pedophiles and the Antifa were protesting and raising hell with the pedophiles, would anyone still be trying to suggest the two groups were similar? Would anyone doing so be cut any slack whatsoever? Perhaps it's appropriate to dislike some of the tactics of the Antifa, but to suggest they are similar to the white supremacists/Nazis only demonstrates that your moral compass has become demagnetized (if not worse).
 

HillzHoozier

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we're all racist to some degree. for some reason it seems to be human trait. (and consider ourselves to have complete domain over any living creature with less intelligence than humans).

the degree to which someone is racist, whether or how they act on it, or their ability to counter their own inherent racism, is important.

many are racists on both sides.

many are sexist on both sides.

and some who just try and get over on everyone for self gain, consider that as ok behavior, and basically consider themselves as inherently superior to, thus justifying any behavior they wish toward, anyone and everyone other than themselves.
Both-sides-ism is the new buzzword around here. Not good, winners. Not good.
 
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hoosboot

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Wow, this is bizarre. I was actually thinking of the very same analogy. If the white suprenacist/Nazis were instead pedophiles and the Antifa were protesting and raising hell with the pedophiles, would anyone still be trying to suggest the two groups were similar? Would anyone doing so be cut any slack whatsoever? Perhaps it's appropriate to dislike some of the tactics of the Antifa, but to suggest they are similar to the white supremacists/Nazis only demonstrates that your moral compass has become demagnetized (if not worse).
This.
 

Cajun54

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It is dumb. And yet, a number of your fellow conservatives insist on doing it. There are quite a few posts in a number of threads that claim Antifa is just as bad or worse than the KKK, or that Antifa and KKK are just two sides of the same hate coin. It's ridiculous. We shouldn't need to build some leftist equivalent in order to condemn white nationalism. We should just condemn white nationalism on its own account. No strings attached.
I think you are misrepresenting the comments and opinions of those on this forum who have criticized Antifa. Criticizing Antifa does not make them equivalent to the Nazis or the KKK in the minds of those criticizing Antifa and I am sure no one here has meant that at all. Everyone has condemned both the Nazis and the KKK and anyone implying that others on the forum are sympathetic with them based upon criticism of Antifa is absurd, ridiculous and insulting.

Those minimizing the actions of Antifa groups and pointing out that they are not as bad as the KKK and Nazis while correct lend validity to the idea to many(Antifa groups & supporters) that denying freedom of assembly and speech to these despicable groups is acceptable and makes it and almost credible point that they are legitimate targets for violence. When is being less bad than the klan a great moral accomplishment? Continually pointing out that Antifa only exist for the sole purpose of fighting Nazis and the KKK is somewhat disingenuous as they have branched out far beyond simply these concerns. They are pan-leftist group, anarchist, communist, anti-capitolist, socialist, and self-described revolutionaries. They have no allegiance to a liberal democracy. Some of them are Marxists, some are Leninists, some are social democrats or anarchists.

I think relative to the discussion is there seems to be a growing ideal with many on the Left that any peaceful assembly they disagree with is illegitimate and unworthy of constitutional protection. We have seen it at Universities and in peaceful protest as well. Antifa has been one of the major violent players in these disagreements and this violence hasn't been limited to only the demonstrations made by the Nazis, KKK, or White Nationalist etc. They have directed their violence on many other peaceful demonstrations and protest not related to the Nazis and KKK.

Freedom of speech and assembly are sacred and hallmarks of our constitution. The Nazis and White Supremist are pathetic and horrible human beings but our constitution allows them the right to assembly and to speak their minds. We should not fight hate with hate. Violence utlized by Antifa groups is not a valid tactic. Defeat them with ideals and words and peaceful opposition. You prop them up by emphasizing that they exist only because of the alt-right and implying that the targets of their violence deserve it regardless of their protections under our constitution.

Some of this violence in several locations has been allowed to happen by decisions to pull back the police by city administrations. Had the police performed as they did in Boston for example much of the violence would not have occurred and what did occur would result in the hoodlums being prosecuted.

If there cause is honorable then why the necessity to show up covered head to toe and wearing mask and carrying clubs and weapons much like the KKK and their garb. They have been violent against many others outside of the Nazis and KKK groups. Frankly they are looking for a fight and in reality the group(s) have probably been infiltrated by those simply looking for and excuse to kick ass and hurt people. The cause is just but their methods and membership is corrupted.

I am not criticizing Antifa to create a leftist boogeyman. I am doing so because they deserve it. More on the left need to do so beyond stating things along the lines that not all of them are bad, or they exist because of the alt-right. And people should quit implying that others criticizing them are sympathetic to Nazis and the KKK.

I condemn the Nazis, KKK, and all similar groups passionately. I don't think Antifa is similar to these other groups or as horrible and most likely never will be. Having said that I condemn the violence and methods used by Antifa groups and find it difficult to find any saving grace in their groups despite their corrupted honorable cause and goals.
 

TheOriginalHappyGoat

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I think you are misrepresenting the comments and opinions of those on this forum who have criticized Antifa. Criticizing Antifa does not make them equivalent to the Nazis or the KKK in the minds of those criticizing Antifa and I am sure no one here has meant that at all. Everyone has condemned both the Nazis and the KKK and anyone implying that others on the forum are sympathetic with them based upon criticism of Antifa is absurd, ridiculous and insulting.

Those minimizing the actions of Antifa groups and pointing out that they are not as bad as the KKK and Nazis while correct lend validity to the idea to many(Antifa groups & supporters) that denying freedom of assembly and speech to these despicable groups is acceptable and makes it and almost credible point that they are legitimate targets for violence. When is being less bad than the klan a great moral accomplishment? Continually pointing out that Antifa only exist for the sole purpose of fighting Nazis and the KKK is somewhat disingenuous as they have branched out far beyond simply these concerns. They are pan-leftist group, anarchist, communist, anti-capitolist, socialist, and self-described revolutionaries. They have no allegiance to a liberal democracy. Some of them are Marxists, some are Leninists, some are social democrats or anarchists.

I think relative to the discussion is there seems to be a growing ideal with many on the Left that any peaceful assembly they disagree with is illegitimate and unworthy of constitutional protection. We have seen it at Universities and in peaceful protest as well. Antifa has been one of the major violent players in these disagreements and this violence hasn't been limited to only the demonstrations made by the Nazis, KKK, or White Nationalist etc. They have directed their violence on many other peaceful demonstrations and protest not related to the Nazis and KKK.

Freedom of speech and assembly are sacred and hallmarks of our constitution. The Nazis and White Supremist are pathetic and horrible human beings but our constitution allows them the right to assembly and to speak their minds. We should not fight hate with hate. Violence utlized by Antifa groups is not a valid tactic. Defeat them with ideals and words and peaceful opposition. You prop them up by emphasizing that they exist only because of the alt-right and implying that the targets of their violence deserve it regardless of their protections under our constitution.

Some of this violence in several locations has been allowed to happen by decisions to pull back the police by city administrations. Had the police performed as they did in Boston for example much of the violence would not have occurred and what did occur would result in the hoodlums being prosecuted.

If there cause is honorable then why the necessity to show up covered head to toe and wearing mask and carrying clubs and weapons much like the KKK and their garb. They have been violent against many others outside of the Nazis and KKK groups. Frankly they are looking for a fight and in reality the group(s) have probably been infiltrated by those simply looking for and excuse to kick ass and hurt people. The cause is just but their methods and membership is corrupted.

I am not criticizing Antifa to create a leftist boogeyman. I am doing so because they deserve it. More on the left need to do so beyond stating things along the lines that not all of them are bad, or they exist because of the alt-right. And people should quit implying that others criticizing them are sympathetic to Nazis and the KKK.

I condemn the Nazis, KKK, and all similar groups passionately. I don't think Antifa is similar to these other groups or as horrible and most likely never will be. Having said that I condemn the violence and methods used by Antifa groups and find it difficult to find any saving grace in their groups despite their corrupted honorable cause and goals.
Cajun, you make a lot of good points in your post, but you make one mistake early. It isn't the left here on this forum that is equating Antifa with the KKK or implying that rejection of Antifa is equivalent to endorsement of the KKK. It is the right drawing that connection, by bunching two discussions into one. It is the right on this forum that insists that denouncing the KKK and denouncing Antifa violence are part of the same conversation. Our* point on the left is that they are not part of the same conversation. There is nothing wrong with denouncing violence by leftist groups. Great. I denounce all political violence in a democracy. That shouldn't be controversial. But it also shouldn't be tied to denouncing the hateful ideology of Nazis and the KKK. When people complain about double standards and demand that we hold politicians who fail to condemn Antifa violence to the same standard we hold politicians who fail to condemn white nationalism, those people are the ones conflating these issues. And those people, on this forum, are for the most part the conservatives.

I gladly condemn political violence on both sides. I also gladly condemn leftist thought that calls for violence. I also disagree with (but don't condemn) certain strains of leftist extremism relating to anarchism; I have an ideological disagreement with them, but their views are not worthy of condemnation - they are just wrong, in my opinion.

But of all these actors in these current issues, only the white nationalists are presenting an ideology that itself is worthy of condemnation, regardless of methods. But many of your friends on the right can't bring themselves to do that, at least not without making it part of some false equivalency. Nazis and the KKK should be condemned by all right thinking people for what they believe, full stop. No strings need be attached.

* Most of us; there are always a few exceptions.
 
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Cajun54

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Cajun, you make a lot of good points in your post, but you make one mistake early. It isn't the left here on this forum that is equating Antifa with the KKK or implying that rejection of Antifa is equivalent to endorsement of the KKK. It is the right drawing that connection, by bunching two discussions into one. It is the right on this forum that insists that denouncing the KKK and denouncing Antifa violence are part of the same conversation. Our* point on the left is that they are not part of the same conversation. There is nothing wrong with denouncing violence by leftist groups. Great. I denounce all political violence in a democracy. That shouldn't be controversial. But it also shouldn't be tied to denouncing the hateful ideology of Nazis and the KKK. When people complain about double standards and demand that we hold politicians who fail to condemn Antifa violence to the same standard we hold politicians who fail to condemn white nationalism, those people are the ones conflating these issues. And those people, on this forum, are for the most part the conservatives.

I gladly condemn political violence on both sides. I also gladly condemn leftist thought that calls for violence. I also disagree with (but don't condemn) certain strains of leftist extremism relating to anarchism; I have an ideological disagreement with them, but their views are not worthy of condemnation - they are just wrong, in my opinion.

But of all these actors in these current issues, only the white nationalists are presenting an ideology that itself is worthy of condemnation, regardless of methods. But many of your friends on the right can't bring themselves to do that, at least not without making it part of some false equivalency. Nazis and the KKK should be condemned by all right thinking people for what they believe, full stop. No strings need be attached.

* Most of us; there are always a few exceptions.
First of all I know it is not the left equating Antifa and the KKK as it is some on the left that have stated the conservatives have done so. I think I made that clear.

I have no problem condemning the white nationalist and their ideology. I have no problem stating that I don't begin to consider Antifa equal to or as bad as white nationalist groups. Not by any stretch of the imagination. In fact I think their cause of fighting against white nationalism, fascism etc. is fine but their methods have corrupted them and their cause.

I just don't think those who have criticized Antifa has meant that they are as bad as the white nationalist groups or were trying to create a double standard or boogeyman. I don't think they have been equating the two. They have simply been criticizing Antifa and their methods and feel that many more on the left should be doing so. There are a lot of leaders remaining silent on the Antifa violence. Personally I think it fair to expect all of our politicians to condemn the violence from any group every time it occurs and not based upon a groups original intent, cause or purpose. Antifa might have an honorable cause but their tactic of violence isn't honorable and they have corrupted their cause. It almost seems at times that Antifa is considered a valuable tool by many on the left and they want to avoid criticism of them. I was not a Trump supporter as you know but it happens right here where all pro-Trump supporters are called by some as "fascists," and racist and imply all groups that oppose them could be white supremacists or at the very least sympathizers.
 
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TheOriginalHappyGoat

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I just don't think those who have criticized Antifa has meant that they are as bad as the white nationalist groups or were trying to create a double standard or boogeyman. I don't think they have been equating the two. They have simply been criticizing Antifa and their methods and feel that many more on the left should be doing so.
Many of them have been equating them. Some posters have explicitly said that Antifa is just as bad as the KKK (one poster said they were worse!), and others have implicitly equated them by saying things like, "If we expect Republicans to denounce the KKK, shouldn't we expect Dems to denounce Antifa?" These posts actually exist. They are not part of a leftist fantasy on this forum. Some of your fellow conservatives are drawing this inane false equivalency; we on the left are merely responding to it, and pointing out the inanity.

Now, obviously, the leftist posters who are saying that all conservatives and/or Trump supporters are de facto fascists are wrong. But that's not what most of us are arguing. Most of us are simply flabbergasted with the sheer number of posters who can't separate denouncing white nationalists for their hateful ideology and denouncing protesters of all stripes who resort to violence. They are two separate issues, and it's your side that is conflating them, for the most part.
 
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Cajun54

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Many of them have been equating them. Some posters have explicitly said that Antifa is just as bad as the KKK (one poster said they were worse!), and others have implicitly equated them by saying things like, "If we expect Republicans to denounce the KKK, shouldn't we expect Dems to denounce Antifa?" These posts actually exist. They are not part of a leftist fantasy on this forum. Some of your fellow conservatives are drawing this inane false equivalency; we on the left are merely responding to it, and pointing out the inanity.

Now, obviously, the leftist posters who are saying that all conservatives and/or Trump supporters are de facto fascists are wrong. But that's not what most of us are arguing. Most of us are simply flabbergasted with the sheer number of posters who can't separate denouncing white nationalists for their hateful ideology and denouncing protesters of all stripes who resort to violence. They are two separate issues, and it's your side that is conflating them, for the most part.
I will go back and read all the threads related to Antifa and racism again. I haven't read them all so I will spend more time doing so and see if I can find exactly what you reference. I really don't feel your quoted part "If we expect Republicans to denounce the KKK, shouldn't we expect Dems to denounce Antifa?" supporting your argument. It's to vague to do so. The context of this quote could be interpreted in different ways. Perhaps they simply meant that the violence of Antifa should be condemned as well. At any rate that quote doesn't lead me to the conclusion that the poster feels that Antifa and the KKK are similar and equally bad. But that's just me. IF they did mean what you suggest in my opinion they are wrong regardless of who stated it and right now I don't know who that is as I write.

I recently read the letter that some Ivy League profs wrote to their students. There was one paragraph in it that really stood out for me. I think it applies to these numerous threads and debates we have had here recently and everyone should think about it. I am pasting it below.

Merriam-Webster’s first definition of the word “bigot” is a person “who is obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices.” The only people who need fear open-minded inquiry and robust debate are the actual bigots, including those on campuses or in the broader society who seek to protect the hegemony of their opinions by claiming that to question those opinions is itself bigotry.
I think all should tone it down and quit tossing around personal insults and use some semblance of decorum and civility. It is sorely lacking here.
 

TheOriginalHappyGoat

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The context of this quote could be interpreted in different ways. Perhaps they simply meant that the violence of Antifa should be condemned as well.
Yes, but when confronted with the ambiguity, reasonable people would respond with something similar to what you posted: "Well, obviously Nazis are much worse, but all violence is bad." Too many posters instead have hunkered down and refused to do so. When I asked one poster to condemn the Nazis and KKK without resorting to any both sides equivocation, he asked if I was accusing him of supporting the KKK. When I assured him that I was not, but only hadn't seen him denounce one without bringing up the other, he went silent.

This is a serious problem on your side of the spectrum. I mean, we all have our problems, but this one is yours. You (plural) need to be able to condemn a hateful ideology without feeling the need to create a leftist bogeyman to equate it with. You (singular) are clearly capable of doing so, but you (plural) are having a lot of problems with this, both on this forum and in the general conservative populace. It's not a good look.
 

Cajun54

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Yes, but when confronted with the ambiguity, reasonable people would respond with something similar to what you posted: "Well, obviously Nazis are much worse, but all violence is bad." Too many posters instead have hunkered down and refused to do so. When I asked one poster to condemn the Nazis and KKK without resorting to any both sides equivocation, he asked if I was accusing him of supporting the KKK. When I assured him that I was not, but only hadn't seen him denounce one without bringing up the other, he went silent.

This is a serious problem on your side of the spectrum. I mean, we all have our problems, but this one is yours. You (plural) need to be able to condemn a hateful ideology without feeling the need to create a leftist bogeyman to equate it with. You (singular) are clearly capable of doing so, but you (plural) are having a lot of problems with this, both on this forum and in the general conservative populace. It's not a good look.
Me thinks you wrong. Will leave it at that. I know which poster you reference regarding his ability to denounce the Nazis and KKK without equivocation. I can assure you he can and does. They probably went silent because unlike you and I most normal people retire at a reasonable hour. I am sure they will respond to you later on.

I think to many on the left look at Antifa as a tool and want to avoid any serious condemnation of their violence and make a great effort to justify their existence and frankly to imply if not for the alt right Antifa would not exist and neither would their violence. Some here have and some have not. One even encouraged it. Many of the leaders on the the left have not condemned the violence of Antifa sufficiently. Much of the media avoids covering it or filming it. Silence speaks volumes as well. This to is not a good look.

Goodnight...this old fart is retiring for the evening.
 

TheOriginalHappyGoat

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Me thinks you wrong. Will leave it at that. I know which poster you reference regarding his ability to denounce the Nazis and KKK without equivocation. I can assure you he can and does. They probably went silent because unlike you and I most normal people retire at a reasonable hour. I am sure they will respond to you later on.
No, he stayed online and posting for a while. Maybe he's just working on a response to me, but it's not because he went to bed. And it's not a really complicated response I'm looking for. "Nazis are bad" shouldn't take a lot of effort.

I think to many on the left look at Antifa as a tool and want to avoid any serious condemnation of their violence and make a great effort to justify their existence and frankly to imply if not for the alt right Antifa would not exist and neither would their violence. Some here have and some have not. One even encouraged it. Many of the leaders on the the left have not condemned the violence of Antifa sufficiently. Much of the media avoids covering it or filming it. Silence speaks volumes as well. This to is not a good look.
There's nothing wrong with Antifa's existence. They are an anti-fascist organization. Here, I fear you are falling into the same trap as your compatriots. Some Antifa members engage in violence. This is bad. But the core reason for their existence - opposition to fascism - is a good one. There is nothing wrong with the fact they exist, and no one should be expected to condemn their existence.

But the Nazis and the KKK? There is nothing good about them. Their very belief system, they're entire reason for existing, should be condemned by all right-thinking people. This is the false equivalency. Both sides do bad things, yes, but only one side is evil to the core. This is the only important distinction, and you guys seem to be ignoring it.

Goodnight...this old fart is retiring for the evening.
Cheers.
 

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"This is a serious problem on your side of the spectrum. I mean, we all have our problems, but this one is yours. You (plural) need to be able to condemn a hateful ideology without feeling the need to create a leftist bogeyman to equate it with. You (singular) are clearly capable of doing so, but you (plural) are having a lot of problems with this, both on this forum and in the general conservative populace. It's not a good look."

Goat this is what many take issue with. If i denounce the Nazi sympathizers and the KKK and also denounce the Antifa thugs how is that creating a bogeyman? Antifa thugs are just that. It no way says they are an equal as you insist. And Antifa is not a bogeyman as you insist. They are real. They are thugs looking for a fight. Hell they are beating people that support DT and for no other reason. They are not some noble group. The hypocrisy is that to my knowledge only Pelosi has condemned them. How many hours you think the news would spend on them if they were a right supporting group? And how many media mouth pieces for the left would be ripping the pubs for not denouncing them all day every day. The left is making this about equivalency in order to deflect.
 
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CO. Hoosier

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Both sides-ism necessarily implied some moral equivalency. Anyone who thinks Antifa is the moral equivalent of the KKK is either a racist or an idiot.
You always look for a racial component. Some times race just isn't relevant to a particular point. If opposing groups both bring baseball bats and guns to a rally in the public square, that is to be condemned by all. One group's weapons are not less lethal just cuz you give them the moral high ground.
 

CO. Hoosier

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Wow, this is bizarre. I was actually thinking of the very same analogy. If the white suprenacist/Nazis were instead pedophiles and the Antifa were protesting and raising hell with the pedophiles, would anyone still be trying to suggest the two groups were similar? Would anyone doing so be cut any slack whatsoever? Perhaps it's appropriate to dislike some of the tactics of the Antifa, but to suggest they are similar to the white supremacists/Nazis only demonstrates that your moral compass has become demagnetized (if not worse).
Under the first amendment the two groups ARE identical and the KKK had the same rights as you that day. This notion is under attack. That concerns me.

Those who think the "equivalency" debate is about the comparative social value of the KKK I think are using Charlottesville as as just another verbal weapon.
 

Rockfish1

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Under the first amendment the two groups ARE identical and the KKK had the same rights as you that day. This notion is under attack. That concerns me.
No one doubts that the Klan is protected by the First Amendment. Thus, the "attack" that concerns you is nonexistent. As I've said elsewhere, you guys have an extraordinary capacity to misunderstand what you don't want to hear.

Everyone agrees that politically-motivated violence is illegitimate, no matter who does it. Everyone specifically agrees that it's wrong when antifa groups do it.

But while all speakers are equal under the law, all speakers aren't morally equivalent. I'm surprised (and appalled) that it's become necessary to remind you guys that neo-Nazis, white supremacists, and the Klan are in a class of their own.
 

IUBBALLAWOL

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No one doubts that the Klan is protected by the First Amendment. Thus, the "attack" that concerns you is nonexistent. As I've said elsewhere, you guys have an extraordinary capacity to misunderstand what you don't want to hear.

Everyone agrees that politically-motivated violence is illegitimate, no matter who does it. Everyone specifically agrees that it's wrong when antifa groups do it.

But while all speakers are equal under the law, all speakers aren't morally equivalent. I'm surprised (and appalled) that it's become necessary to remind you guys that neo-Nazis, white supremacists, and the Klan are in a class of their own.
So who is the moral equivalent decision maker? It sure shouldn't be anyone on the left. Morals are something they know little about or care to live by. Just another way for the left to deflect.
 
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You always look for a racial component. Some times race just isn't relevant to a particular point. If opposing groups both bring baseball bats and guns to a rally in the public square, that is to be condemned by all. One group's weapons are not less lethal just cuz you give them the moral high ground.
The Nazi's had assault rifles.
 

iu_a_att

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No one doubts that the Klan is protected by the First Amendment. Thus, the "attack" that concerns you is nonexistent. As I've said elsewhere, you guys have an extraordinary capacity to misunderstand what you don't want to hear.

Everyone agrees that politically-motivated violence is illegitimate, no matter who does it. Everyone specifically agrees that it's wrong when antifa groups do it.

But while all speakers are equal under the law, all speakers aren't morally equivalent. I'm surprised (and appalled) that it's become necessary to remind you guys that neo-Nazis, white supremacists, and the Klan are in a class of their own.
What we learn from all this is that leadership matters. All of these gymnastics occurs because of Trump's positioning himself as a deplorable forces his supporters to rationalize their support. It means minimizing the moral stain by managing to equate nazis with those who oppose them. Thus Nazis must be reduced to mere thugs. All of this because Trump and partisanship leads them here. None of us can feel good about this, about being so dependent on something so unreliable as the moral compass of leaders.
 

TheOriginalHappyGoat

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You always look for a racial component. Some times race just isn't relevant to a particular point. If opposing groups both bring baseball bats and guns to a rally in the public square, that is to be condemned by all. One group's weapons are not less lethal just cuz you give them the moral high ground.
It's the KKK. There is a racial component.
 

Noodle

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Under the first amendment the two groups ARE identical and the KKK had the same rights as you that day. This notion is under attack. That concerns me.

Those who think the "equivalency" debate is about the comparative social value of the KKK I think are using Charlottesville as as just another verbal weapon.
The equivalency debate has never been couched in terms of the first amendment. Besides that, both groups exercised their first amendment rights vigorously.

But go ahead, keep making that equivalency argument. People that are actually offended by white supremacists, Nazis, etc. will go right on shouting them down, drowning out their voices, demanding that they lose their jobs because of their views when we can identify them, and making their lives miserable in the spotlight. After all, we're just exercising our first amendment right.
 
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CO. Hoosier

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No one doubts that the Klan is protected by the First Amendment. Thus, the "attack" that concerns you is nonexistent. As I've said elsewhere, you guys have an extraordinary capacity to misunderstand what you don't want to hear.

Everyone agrees that politically-motivated violence is illegitimate, no matter who does it. Everyone specifically agrees that it's wrong when antifa groups do it.

But while all speakers are equal under the law, all speakers aren't morally equivalent. I'm surprised (and appalled) that it's become necessary to remind you guys that neo-Nazis, white supremacists, and the Klan are in a class of their own.
It's the KKK. There is a racial component.
The equivalency debate has never been couched in terms of the first amendment. Besides that, both groups exercised their first amendment rights vigorously.

But go ahead, keep making that equivalency argument. People that are actually offended by white supremacists, Nazis, etc. will go right on shouting them down, drowning out their voices, demanding that they lose their jobs because of their views when we can identify them, and making their lives miserable in the spotlight. After all, we're just exercising our first amendment right.
You guys and others are needlessly weaponizing the equivalency debate to bash Trump, conservatives, and some posters. Everyone agrees racial supremacy advocates are disgusting. Your imposing some kind of duty to rebuke into this debate is only for bashing purposes. The notion that a failure to rebuke in terms you demand is the moral equivalent of racism is nuts.

It is not a given any longer that the KKK has a right of assembly and the right of free expression. There is significant pressure to the contrary and Antifa is the tip of the spear.
 
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TheOriginalHappyGoat

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You guys and others are needlessly weaponizing the equivalency debate to bash Trump, conservatives, and some posters. Everyone agrees racial supremacy advocates are disgusting. Your imposing some kind of duty to rebuke into this debate is only for bashing purposes. The notion that a failure to tubule in terms you demand is the moral equivalent of racism is nuts.

It is not a given any longer that the KKK has a right of assembly and the right of free expression. There is significant pressure to the contrary and Antifa is the tip of the spear.
Bullshit. You are doing this to yourselves. Trump started the false equivalency after Charlottesville. Right wing media jumped on board. Conservative posters here followed suit.

No one is weaponizing anything. Your actual behavior is being criticized because your actual behavior is actually reprehensible.