Social Media Drives Our Divides

[IUCrazy2]

Has anyone seen the series that the WSJ did on Facebook/Instagram? Was basically a three parter that showed how the social media giant is involved in pushing a divide in this country, knowingly impacts mental health...particularly of teen girls, and has a formula that ensures that the connected and powerful are set aside to say and do things that other "regular" people are not.

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The aristocracy has more latitude than you

Welcome to nginx

Instagram is toxic for teen girls

Both of those have their issues, but I think the most important issue is that Facebook knowingly drives partisan division for clicks. It's algorithms are designed to pick controversial topics and get you to argue with your friends and family about them. They were not getting enough eyeballs on pictures of cats and photos for Grandma, so they socially engineered civil strife.

Welcome to nginx

Zuckerberg is a piece of shit.

 

[UncleMark]

Both of those have their issues, but I think the most important issue is that Facebook knowingly drives partisan division for clicks. It's algorithms are designed to pick controversial topics and get you to argue with your friends and family about them. They were not getting enough eyeballs on pictures of cats and photos for Grandma, so they socially engineered civil strife.

All Facebook wants is eyeballs and clicks. If the bolded above is what delivers them, that's on the users.

 

[mcmurtry66]

All Facebook wants is eyeballs and clicks. If the bolded above is what delivers them, that's on the users.

I guess I don't understand FB. How does FB pick topics? And where are they? All I see are posts from friends. And not all my friends on FB. The same 15 or so people.

 

[IUJIM]

All Facebook wants is eyeballs and clicks. If the bolded above is what delivers them, that's on the users.

With that line of thinking, Philip Morris and RJ Reynolds would have never paid a cent to the millions of people who have died due to smoking. Since 1964, when the surgeon general came out with warnings, we have known that smoking is bad (Quite frankly, any person with half a brain knew before that as well). At least with Cigarettes, we have age limits to purchase. Facebook has no limits. But I don't think you want the responsibility and repercussions of Facebook left up to 14 year old teens.

 

[mcmurtry66]

With that line of thinking, Philip Morris and RJ Reynolds would have never paid a cent to the millions of people who have died due to smoking. Since 1964, when the surgeon general came out with warnings, we have known that smoking is bad (Quite frankly, any person with half a brain knew before that as well). At least with Cigarettes, we have age limits to purchase. Facebook has no limits. But I don't think you want the responsibility and repercussions of Facebook left up to 14 year old teens.

i get your point iujim but it wasn't that we knew smoking was bad. the tobacco companies concealed and suppressed research data, along w/ countless other nefarious affirmative actions

 

[UncleMark]

With that line of thinking, Philip Morris and RJ Reynolds would have never paid a cent to the millions of people who have died due to smoking. Since 1964, when the surgeon general came out with warnings, we have known that smoking is bad (Quite frankly, any person with half a brain knew before that as well). At least with Cigarettes, we have age limits to purchase. Facebook has no limits. But I don't think you want the responsibility and repercussions of Facebook left up to 14 year old teens.

I'm not going to defend Facebook, but it needs to be said that all they're doing is giving their users what they want.

 

[Chicago-bound Hoosier]

I'm not going to defend Facebook, but it needs to be said that all they're doing is giving their users what they want.

So do drug dealers and child traffickers.

 

[larsIU]

I'm not going to defend Facebook, but it needs to be said that all they're doing is giving their users what they want.

I get what you're selling but I think the articles point to FB knowingly providing a product/service which is harmful to a significant number of people specifically but also to our national discourse writ large.

It sucks that's what we the people seem to want but, like addiction, feeding it to us while concealing the harm could be an issue.

 

[bawlmer]

I get what you're selling but I think the articles point to FB knowingly providing a product/service which is harmful to a significant number of people specifically but also to our national discourse writ large.

It sucks that's what we the people seem to want but, like addiction, feeding it to us while concealing the harm could be an issue.

We're not smarter than the average algorithm.

 

[Bulk VanderHuge]

I get what you're selling but I think the articles point to FB knowingly providing a product/service which is harmful to a significant number of people specifically but also to our national discourse writ large.

It sucks that's what we the people seem to want but, like addiction, feeding it to us while concealing the harm could be an issue.

So, it's like that darn rock and roll music?

 

[El Drado]

If you have insecurities you should not be on FB. If you don't have insecurities i doubt you are on FB.
I am surprised people find it interesting still and are not fatigued by it all. I get the local restaurant/service/store updating their FB to attract local business, but other than that?...not sure.

 

[twenty02]

I'm not going to defend Facebook, but it needs to be said that all they're doing is giving their users what they want.

That's like saying all Purdue Phama did was provide all the oxy that their users wanted

 

[JamieDimonsBalls]

All Facebook wants is eyeballs and clicks. If the bolded above is what delivers them, that's on the users.

That's a bit unfair to humanity, don't you think? Human brains function a certain way and its clear that Facebook (and others, including non-tech news outlets like CNN or Fox News) are intentionally using that for financial gain.

I obviously typically find myself defending Big Tech (and Corporate America in general), but I am seriously concerned about the mental impact these are having.

 

[JamieDimonsBalls]

I'm not going to defend Facebook, but it needs to be said that all they're doing is giving their users what they want.

Then I presume you were an advocate for Wall St. post-financial crisis?

 

[larsIU]

So, it's like that darn rock and roll music?

 

[IUCrazy2]

i get your point iujim but it wasn't that we knew smoking was bad. the tobacco companies concealed and suppressed research data, along w/ countless other nefarious affirmative actions

Did you read the article? Facebook%Instagram has also obfuscated with research. Zuckerberg lied to Congress on several occasions IMO.

@UncleMark the algorithms that Facebook uses suppress some content while forcing others. They know that pushing content that is the most divisive elicits a strong response from people. They then take that strong response and use it to amplify it to all of the friends of the person responding in Hope's that they will also respond strongly....and then argue with each other. So the pictures of your nieces and nephews are getting buried while that guy you went to high school with who enjoys arguing about flat earth gets pushed forward. Then on top of that, the "news" sites that depend on some of those clicks for revenue also have to bait people. So you end up with articles like I saw yesterday where an Indianapolis TV station posted a story about a neighbor playing racist noises and recordings whenever his other neighbors came outside. And it got the black and white commenters all in a tizzy, "Typical Indiana white people...home of the KKK." And then people responding to that. One thing though, it was a story that the news station picked up from a "partner" in Virginia. So how many other communities did that story get blasted to as an example of how terribly racist the country is when in reality it was a dispute between two neighbors in one specific place?

"Well people need to be smarter than that?" I agree, but I think we also need to ask what kind of responsibility these relatively new enterprises have to the rest of us w.r.t. their product. Maybe that is people turning them off or becoming better educated about things...or, since it is clear that these sites moderate at least some of their content, maybe we need to hold them more accountable for what is spread with the megaphone they provide? Or do we let nature take its course until we figure it out?

And if we take the Libertarian pov and say that they should be left alone...Mark Zuckerberg is still garbage.

 

[Bloom.]

I guess I don't understand FB. How does FB pick topics? And where are they? All I see are posts from friends. And not all my friends on FB. The same 15 or so people.

They have an algorithm that drives more of what interests you to you, and as you continue to click on more of it, you narrow your scope as to what you see. Then they push recommendations (not talking about ads) for other content from various media outlets.

I feel like every adult should already know this.

The concept of it is simple. The more you like what you read or view, the more you will come back. It creates a silo effect, whereby you don't get a diversity of view points if you avoid topics and/or perspectives you don't agree with. There is some control over this in your settings, but most people don't ever look at their settings.

Then there are people who try to game the platforms, especially Facebook. Some care chaotic good. Some are chaotic evil. Chaotic good are just trying to get eyeballs typically to push content. Chaotic evil are trying to get content to push agendas.

Relative to what you see among your friends, it's pretty harmless. You're going to see first and most the people you interact with more, causing you to interact with them more, causing you to see less of others.

 

[mcmurtry66]

They have an algorithm that drives more of what interests you to you, and as you continue to click on more of it, you narrow your scope as to what you see. Then they push recommendations (not talking about ads) for other content from various media outlets.

I feel like every adult should already know this.

The concept of it is simple. The more you like what you read or view, the more you will come back. It creates a silo effect, whereby you don't get a diversity of view points if you avoid topics and/or perspectives you don't agree with. There is some control over this in your settings, but most people don't ever look at their settings.

Then there are people who try to game the platforms, especially Facebook. Some care chaotic good. Some are chaotic evil. Chaotic good are just trying to get eyeballs typically to push content. Chaotic evil are trying to get content to push agendas.

Relative to what you see among your friends, it's pretty harmless. You're going to see first and most the people you interact with more, causing you to interact with them more, causing you to see less of others.

i don't click on anything. ever. i scroll down to see what my friends post. that's it. takes about five minutes a day. and again it's largely the same friends - a small portion of all my "FB" friends whose posts for whatever reason never seem to appear

 

[Bloom.]

With that line of thinking, Philip Morris and RJ Reynolds would have never paid a cent to the millions of people who have died due to smoking. Since 1964, when the surgeon general came out with warnings, we have known that smoking is bad (Quite frankly, any person with half a brain knew before that as well). At least with Cigarettes, we have age limits to purchase. Facebook has no limits. But I don't think you want the responsibility and repercussions of Facebook left up to 14 year old teens.

Except Facebook can't really kill you. Facebook doesn't have limits, but it does have controls. They need to educate their users more on how to manage the platform. They have to some extent. They have also started put more manual controls in rather than rely wholly on algorithms.

I'm not going to defend Facebook, but it needs to be said that all they're doing is giving their users what they want.

This is correct to a point, but what they're also doing, which wasn't all that bad until about six years ago, is they're not giving you what you don't want without telling you. Chaotic neutral.

You do get the things you expressly want. The question is, do you want eliminated from view everything you don't expressly want, like opposing or alternative perspectives.


I'm like @mcmurtry66 on the friends side. I do see a limited number of friends. On the topic side and other content side, I try to keep it balanced.

 

[Bloom.]

i don't click on anything. ever. i scroll down to see what my friends post. that's it. takes about five minutes a day. and again it's largely the same friends - a small portion of all my "FB" friends whose posts for whatever reason never seem to appear

You're doing something. It could also be as easily as reading when you stop scrolling. No different than when you scroll a screen only to have a popup asking you to join their newsletter, sign up for notifications or subscribe.

 

[larsIU]

i don't click on anything. ever. i scroll down to see what my friends post. that's it. takes about five minutes a day. and again it's largely the same friends - a small portion of all my "FB" friends whose posts for whatever reason never seem to appear

Watch The Social Dilemma and be frightened. Think it was Netflix.

 

[IUJIM]

Except Facebook can't really kill you. Facebook doesn't have limits, but it does have controls. They need to educate their users more on how to manage the platform. They have to some extent. They have also started put more manual controls in rather than rely wholly on algorithms.



This is correct to a point, but what they're also doing, which wasn't all that bad until about six years ago, is they're not giving you what you don't want without telling you. Chaotic neutral.

You do get the things you expressly want. The question is, do you want eliminated from view everything you don't expressly want, like opposing or alternative perspectives.


I'm like @mcmurtry66 on the friends side. I do see a limited number of friends. On the topic side and other content side, I try to keep it balanced.

They can't kill you directly, but they certainly have a huge influence on teens, and teen suicide, particularly among girls

 

[UncleMark]

They can't kill you directly, but they certainly have a huge influence on teens, and teen suicide, particularly among girls

So is Facebook like the pusherman, or more like the liquor store that happily sells to all the drunks in town no matter how downtrodden they are?

 

[IUJIM]

So is Facebook like the pusherman, or more like the liquor store that happily sells to all the drunks in town no matter how downtrodden they are?

If you watched the Social Dilemma, as somebody referenced above, it is more, much more, than offering a product. It is flat out manipulation. For me as a 57 year old adult, I understand your stance towards Facebook. As a parent with teenagers, I would respectfully disagree. And it is not just Facebook. It is all social media.

 

[larsIU]

If you watched the Social Dilemma, as somebody referenced above, it is more, much more, than offering a product. It is flat out manipulation. For me as a 57 year old adult, I understand your stance towards Facebook. As a parent with teenagers, I would respectfully disagree. And it is not just Facebook. It is all social media.

Agreed 100%. The Social Dilemma is scary for the parent of a teenager (15 y/o girl dad checking in). As an adult we can agree you should be more discerning and able to parse out b/s. For a child or teen not so much. They are INUNDATED with b/c on a daily basis. Some of their own creation but more and more from corporations, special interests, you name it.

For a society that once shut down Camel Joe as a bad influence relative to teen smoking we're doing a piss poor job of regulating social media in any meaningful way.

 

[mcmurtry66]

Agreed 100%. The Social Dilemma is scary for the parent of a teenager (15 y/o girl dad checking in). As an adult we can agree you should be more discerning and able to parse out b/s. For a child or teen not so much. They are INUNDATED with b/c on a daily basis. Some of their own creation but more and more from corporations, special interests, you name it.

For a society that once shut down Camel Joe as a bad influence relative to teen smoking we're doing a piss poor job of regulating social media in any meaningful way.

So what's a parent to do. Every one of my kid's friends are on Tiktok. Tell her no. Tell her she can only have her phone for emergencies. Tell her sorry but you're going to be that kid - outside looking in while all the other kids share their common interests on it.

I don't know. It's a mess. And people say "monitor" what they are looking at. That's nearly impossible. She's already so much more savvy than I or my stoker with that crap.

 

[larsIU]

So what's a parent to do. Every one of my kid's friends are on Tiktok. Tell her no. Tell her she can only have her phone for emergencies. Tell her sorry but you're going to be that kid - outside looking in while all the other kids share their common interests on it.

I don't know. It's a mess. And people say "monitor" what they are looking at. That's nearly impossible. She's already so much more savvy than I or my stoker with that crap.

Correct on all fronts. I made my daughter watch Social Dilemma with me. Hopefully with an understanding they are being monitored, exploited, lied to, etc she can have a better "nose" for it. It's about all you can do.

A kid without Snapchat, Tiktok, etc is basically a target at this point. Plus, it's just how they communicate. Her mom and I are the only people she actually texts anymore.

 

[anon_6hv78pr714xta]

Except Facebook can't really kill you. Facebook doesn't have limits, but it does have controls. They need to educate their users more on how to manage the platform. They have to some extent. They have also started put more manual controls in rather than rely wholly on algorithms.



This is correct to a point, but what they're also doing, which wasn't all that bad until about six years ago, is they're not giving you what you don't want without telling you. Chaotic neutral.

You do get the things you expressly want. The question is, do you want eliminated from view everything you don't expressly want, like opposing or alternative perspectives.


I'm like @mcmurtry66 on the friends side. I do see a limited number of friends. On the topic side and other content side, I try to keep it balanced.

I can't help but giggle at all the D&D alignment references. Nicely done. Are you a DM?

 

[Chicago-bound Hoosier]

So, it's like that darn rock and roll music?

Is that you Tipper Gore?

 

[Bloom.]

They can't kill you directly, but they certainly have a huge influence on teens, and teen suicide, particularly among girls

Sure, but teens aren't playing on Facebook.

IG, TikTok and Snapchat are linear feeds among those you follow. They should eliminate showing how many likes they get in public, and they could easily control who sees Like information by putting it behind a tiered paywall.

Inevitably, this does cycle down to bullying. I'm not fully sure the mechanisms in place to counteract that without creating privacy issues. I would filter out "don't tell" from any posting.

Other phrases would be

You better not
If you tell
If you talk
If you say
...

You get the picture, but that's a pretty daunting workload.

The only way they could truly enforce age limits is by requiring ID, which isn't required for those under 18. They could require a parental ID to confirm, but at least that point you have an adult accountable. Again, privacy issues.

 

[Bloom.]

I can't help but giggle at all the D&D alignment references. Nicely done. Are you a DM?

I played until I was 15, essentially until Legion baseball kicked in. Traveled too much in the summer to keep interest in it.

My favorite opener in Big Bang Theory...

 

[Sope Creek]

Has anyone seen the series that the WSJ did on Facebook/Instagram? Was basically a three parter that showed how the social media giant is involved in pushing a divide in this country, knowingly impacts mental health...particularly of teen girls, and has a formula that ensures that the connected and powerful are set aside to say and do things that other "regular" people are not.

Welcome to nginx

The aristocracy has more latitude than you

Welcome to nginx

Instagram is toxic for teen girls

Both of those have their issues, but I think the most important issue is that Facebook knowingly drives partisan division for clicks. It's algorithms are designed to pick controversial topics and get you to argue with your friends and family about them. They were not getting enough eyeballs on pictures of cats and photos for Grandma, so they socially engineered civil strife.

Welcome to nginx

Zuckerberg is a piece of shit.

And not the Cooler?

Shirley, you jest . . . .

 

[Bloom.]

Correct on all fronts. I made my daughter watch Social Dilemma with me. Hopefully with an understanding they are being monitored, exploited, lied to, etc she can have a better "nose" for it. It's about all you can do.

A kid without Snapchat, Tiktok, etc is basically a target at this point. Plus, it's just how they communicate. Her mom and I are the only people she actually texts anymore.

The latter isn't totally true. I know plenty of kids who have their favorite app and don't mess with others. It's cyclical in some instances.

The texting part is true in a lot of ways between kids and adults in general. The kids I coach will text, but anything we talk about as a group is in Snapchat.

I'm pleased my players and my girlfriend's kids text me directly vs. using another app, because I can more easily address it from my computers, watch or iPad.


Your actions in the first paragraph are awesome!


The reality is, however, the more they rely on these apps, the more you can use them for disciplinary issues. My friend ground her daughter from her phone, and the girl asked her if she could keep her Snap streaks alive. The answer was no, and her daughter FLIPPED HER @#)$(*.

It became a bargaining chip for things like chores and accountability.

 

[Bulk VanderHuge]

I have a Myspace on Compuserve. Will I be affected?

 

[UncleMark]

If you watched the Social Dilemma, as somebody referenced above, it is more, much more, than offering a product. It is flat out manipulation. For me as a 57 year old adult, I understand your stance towards Facebook. As a parent with teenagers, I would respectfully disagree. And it is not just Facebook. It is all social media.

You misunderstand my "stance towards Facebook". I loath it. If I were King it would go up in smoke.

My point is to point out that Facebook is doing what large, soulless, profit driven organizations do. While people decry what Facebook has done to the body politic, they keep their Facebook tab open in their browser. While they decry the lack of good American jobs, they shop at Wal*Mart and Amazon. And on and on and on.

 

[The Vid]

“What’s good for the world is not necessarily good for Facebook.”

-Mark Zuckerberg

The guy is a deplorable POS, and all self respecting adults should be deleting their accounts.

 

[The Vid]

So what's a parent to do. Every one of my kid's friends are on Tiktok. Tell her no. Tell her she can only have her phone for emergencies. Tell her sorry but you're going to be that kid - outside looking in while all the other kids share their common interests on it.

I don't know. It's a mess. And people say "monitor" what they are looking at. That's nearly impossible. She's already so much more savvy than I or my stoker with that crap.

Do what all of the executives at Facebook do, don’t allow your kids to participate.

 

[larsIU]

The latter isn't totally true. I know plenty of kids who have their favorite app and don't mess with others. It's cyclical in some instances.

The texting part is true in a lot of ways between kids and adults in general. The kids I coach will text, but anything we talk about as a group is in Snapchat.

I'm pleased my players and my girlfriend's kids text me directly vs. using another app, because I can more easily address it from my computers, watch or iPad.


Your actions in the first paragraph are awesome!


The reality is, however, the more they rely on these apps, the more you can use them for disciplinary issues. My friend ground her daughter from her phone, and the girl asked her if she could keep her Snap streaks alive. The answer was no, and her daughter FLIPPED HER @#)$(*.

It became a bargaining chip for things like chores and accountability.

Don't get me started on what I've heard about snap streaks. Meth is apparently less addictive.

And oh yes, the phone is the ultimate bargaining chip. She doesn't even care that much about money. I think I'm officially old.

 

[The Vid]

I'm not going to defend Facebook, but it needs to be said that all they're doing is giving their users what they want.

Seriously? More like they are deciding what they want to mainline into their users.

 

[NPT]

Do what all of the executives at Facebook do, don’t allow your kids to participate.

Are you joking or have you read that somewhere?