Sobering article from Pete Thamel re: Miller's status in Bloomington

crazed_hoosier2

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Huh? That’s the reality of the situation given the current financial climate. You can try and hire a Brad Stevens or a Scott Drew all you want, odds are it’s not happening. Firing Archie Miller given the current financial struggles is likely going to net only a lateral hire. Archie clearly isn’t the answer going forward, but is Fife, Alford, etc?
Given how the past 4 years have gone, I’m sitting here trying to imagine exactly who would be considered a “lateral hire” for Archie Miller.

Among those who have coached in the B10...Groce? Lickliter? Ellerbe?

I get the dilemma here. Do we roll the dice with somebody (cheaper) now under budget constraints or do we wait another (likely excruciating) year and maybe be in a better position next year to hire a higher-dollar coach?
 

Big Red Crimson Buffalo

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You can hire as many different coaches as you want, but if the administration is incompetent and/or not on board with supporting a national contender basketball program, then it doesn't matter.

And if the administration is incompetent and/or not on board with supporting a national contender basketball program, then what big name coach would even consider coming to Bloomington?

I think the IU administration was spoiled by riding the coattails of Coach Knight, never themselves having to support the program with any sophistication or savvy.

There are multiple signs that our university supports the program with exception of holding on to the coach. That’s the big one. Everything else is comparable or better than the conference peers.
Facilities. Marketing. The contract is second highest paid in the conference. Other than landing the right coach who has a personality for success, all the other infrastructure is there.
 

Univee2

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idiots abound.

success doesn't travel all that well for college bball coaches, and the very very few it has for generally never hang around for long, so looking for a high priced guy that will tie IU up for another 5 yrs even if a flop, is wrong headed thinking.

lots of guys can coach, and who that has had great success in the B10 and lasted long, came in as a big name?

what IU needs is someone who can sell IU to players and their families, and wants to be here for reasons other than maxing out their earning power.

over thinking it has been a disaster, and will continue to be.

whomever has been being the decider in this since Davis left, we definitely need someone else making the decision.

for the non kids here, no idea how Wittman doesn't top the list.

How many 16, 17 and 18 year-olds know who Randy Wittman even is?

How many of those know he played on a national champion, played in the NBA and coached in the NBA?

How many years has Wittman coached at the collegiate level? How many years has he recruited? How many AAU coaches does he know?

As much as I liked Randy Wittman as a player at IU he just doesn't bring the appropriate skill set.

So, I guess this means he'll be the one . . .
 

Coach Geez

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Given how the past 4 years have gone, I’m sitting here trying to imagine exactly who would be considered a “lateral hire” for Archie Miller.

Among those who have coached in the B10...Groce? Lickliter? Ellerbe?

I get the dilemma here. Do we roll the dice with somebody (cheaper) now under budget constraints or do we wait another (likely excruciating) year and maybe be in a better position next year to hire a higher-dollar coach?

That’s exactly where I’m at. If the goal is to truly elevate the program firing Archie and hiring someone else on a prayer simply because it’s not Archie has all the makings of being a disaster. I understand why having a lame duck coach is potentially detrimental but such are decisions made under financial constraint. It really is a no-win situation right now, one I don’t fathom to be in the decision making process.
 
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Coach Geez

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How many 16, 17 and 18 year-olds know who Randy Wittman even is?

How many of those know he played on a national champion, played in the NBA and coached in the NBA?

How many years has Wittman coached at the collegiate level? How many years has he recruited? How many AAU coaches does he know?

As much as I liked Randy Wittman as a player at IU he just doesn't bring the appropriate skill set.

So, I guess this means he'll be the one . . .

Kidding me, there’s current IU fans 35 and younger who wouldn’t know Randy Wittman if they saw him, let alone 16, 17, 18 year old recruits.

I get the idea of wanting someone with NBA credentials as it pertains to recruiting, but you have NBA HoFers and perennial all stars coaching college teams now and don’t have the slightest clue as to what they’re doing.

Love Wittman as a player, but he’s a failed NBA coach who isn’t really going to resonate with anyone under 45-50. Great college player 40 years ago, but that’s not really uncommon in this industry.
 

Hank Reardon

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I get the dilemma here. Do we roll the dice with somebody (cheaper) now under budget constraints or do we wait another (likely excruciating) year and maybe be in a better position next year to hire a higher-dollar coach?

You make the move when you have the right move to make. You don't just make another move to make another move. That's a sure way to end up back here in 4 to 5 years having this same discussion yet again and the IU brand even further eroded, as if it's not already more or less gone.

Better to keep Archie until we have The Guy, or at least what we believe to be The Guy, ready to bring in. Rotating lightweights and prayers is getting us nowhere, and another one sets up back that much further.
 

fkfootball

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Illinois fired Groce and hired a dude from Oklahoma State. I mean c’mon guys. We can do something. And I believe even Alford is a step up from Miller. Dude makes Sweet 16s. Yes I’m aware that isn’t the the ultimate goal.
 
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Coach Geez

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Illinois fired Groce and hired a dude from Oklahoma State. I mean c’mon guys. We can do something. And I believe even Alford is a step up from Miller. Dude makes Sweet 16s. Yes I’m aware that isn’t the the ultimate goal.

Archie’s been further in the tournament than Steve Alford and is 15 years younger. What’s your point? He may be a more polished than Archie, maybe even a slight step up at his current age, but is that really your ultimate goal? You answered you’re own question.
 
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MikeHoncho69

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If Scott Dolson and his puppet masters at IU choose to retain Archie Miller for the 2021-22 season, it will be the clearest indication yet that the university simply is not serious about winning. That's really all there is to it.

Auburn University fired its former head football coach, Gus Malzahn, paying him $21.45 million to walk away. The Tigers' administration and boosters were united in their mission to win at the highest level. I simply do not believe IU is anywhere close to being that serious about winning.
 

go_iu

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Archie’s been further in the tournament than Steve Alford and is 15 years younger. What’s your point? He may be a more polished than Archie, maybe even a slight step up at his current age, but is that really your ultimate goal? You answered you’re own question.
I'm at the point where we should just roll time back and hire MD again. Given talent, which he can get, he had us about an inch away from a title, Don't break the bank and give him top assistants like a Fife and Mike Lewis. He admits he wasn't ready the first time and did the noble thing and resigned. Now says he's a 100X better coach and I believe that, he just doesn't have the resources where he is.
 

Paterfamilias

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yeah, Arch has so much more going for him than Wittman.

LMAO.

the definition of insanity is alive and well on this board.

Not popular for sure, but I mostly agree about Wittman. His last three seasons in Washington he won 131 regular season games, which still stands as the best 3 yr run by a Washington coach since the NBA installed the 3 point shot. He also had back to back 1st round series wins for the first time since same.

I always hoped Wittman would get a shot, but I think the right time may have passed. He was credited as a top strategist at one time among his peers, which would certainly be welcome change 😀
 

Beag25

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Two good transfers..IU is more than solid..
Michigan this year is no where as good without transfers..
True that UM became Big 10 champs with the two transfers but it had a much stronger base with Wagner, Livers and freshman Dickinson than IU will have.
 

Sobchak_Security

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Huh? That’s the reality of the situation given the current financial climate. You can try and hire a Brad Stevens or a Scott Drew all you want, odds are it’s not happening. Firing Archie Miller given the current financial struggles is likely going to net only a lateral hire. Archie clearly isn’t the answer going forward, but is Fife, Alford, etc?
It is clear Archie isn’t, what good does it do to keep him? There’s zero upside and a ton of risk.
 

bub-rub

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Huh? That’s the reality of the situation given the current financial climate. You can try and hire a Brad Stevens or a Scott Drew all you want, odds are it’s not happening. Firing Archie Miller given the current financial struggles is likely going to net only a lateral hire. Archie clearly isn’t the answer going forward, but is Fife, Alford, etc?

You are prob right and I think IU will twiddle its thumbs for a year longer than it should because that’s the pace of things in Bloomington but I’d think this would be a buyers market for coaches. Great time to get a relative discount on the next guy and also renegotiate the buyout with another cash-strapped school. But I dream big!
 

Cavanagh.13

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You are prob right and I think IU will twiddle its thumbs for a year longer than it should because that’s the pace of things in Bloomington but I’d think this would be a buyers market for coaches. Great time to get a relative discount on the next guy and also renegotiate the buyout with another cash-strapped school. But I dream big!

This is the year to make the hire. Waiting till next year is worse in every possible way. If we still have miller as our coach next year I will lose it.
 

bub-rub

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This is the year to make the hire. Waiting till next year is worse in every possible way. If we still have miller as our coach next year I will lose it.

Yup yup. Plus one year to take all transfers? A change seems like a no brainer for a basketball program that makes good money even when it sucks.
 

Jssanto

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A few excerpts from Thamel, who has a track record of having good sources at the collegiate level:

  • "The feeling around Indiana is that things are shaky, but there’s yet to be any tangible momentum by the school to fire Archie Miller for his third non-NCAA tournament season in four years. (Indiana appeared on the cusp of reaching the NCAAs last year, projected as a No. 10 seed.)"
  • "Can Indiana’s athletic department can pull off paying out that money and rallying the cash for a $30 million contract – and potentially another huge buyout — to lure someone like Chris Beard, Scott Drew, John Beilein, Bobby Hurley or Mick Cronin? Probably not, as that would take sophistication, savvy and some groundwork that no one has seen any signs from in Bloomington. The backchannels are quiet, so far."
  • There’s also not a no-brainer replacement, as hiring the caliber of coach Indiana would want is a high-wire act they don’t appear prepared to navigate.

Ugh.

Full article: https://sports.yahoo.com/coaching-carousel-sean-miller-arizona-patrick-ewing-191946911.html
Yes ugh.
 

Jssanto

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I'm at the point where we should just roll time back and hire MD again. Given talent, which he can get, he had us about an inch away from a title, Don't break the bank and give him top assistants like a Fife and Mike Lewis. He admits he wasn't ready the first time and did the noble thing and resigned. Now says he's a 100X better coach and I believe that, he just doesn't have the resources where he is.
I agree. And coming from Detroit Mercy I doubt he is making that much money.
 

Birnk403

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We continue to hire AD’s who have zero experience and then wonder why they don’t do their jobs very well. It’s absolutely insane to expect a different result, and Thamel’s commentary and inside information is right on the mark, even as it‘s damning.
 
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mathboy

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IU has a challenge in front of them. I don't think Archie will turn it around, not this year or the next, or even the year after that. He is done.

He is already in the downward spiral caused by his team not talking him up as a good coach - he has lost this team in my opinion. That means recruiting is going to go into the dumper. The kids currently on the team are talented and should be more successful than their current record shows. They are frustrated and that reflects in their attitudes. They are not going to attract the players needed for the program's future.

So what does IU do? They have to hire a younger charismatic coach from a minor conference. No big name coach in his right mind will take the IU job because of the poor history of the program and how they have treated coaches for the last couple decades. The big names will seek easier venues, unless they are just in it for a big three year paycheck. That happens in this sport occasionally unfortunately. No, forget the big names. Go for an energetic up and comer that is flying under the national radar. That is just my two pennies.

:cool:
 

jet812

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idiots abound.

success doesn't travel all that well for college bball coaches, and the very very few it has for generally never hang around for long, so looking for a high priced guy that will tie IU up for another 5 yrs even if a flop, is wrong headed thinking.

lots of guys can coach, and who that has had great success in the B10 and lasted long, came in as a big name?

what IU needs is someone who can sell IU to players and their families, and wants to be here for reasons other than maxing out their earning power.

over thinking it has been a disaster, and will continue to be.

whomever has been being the decider in this since Davis left, we definitely need someone else making the decision.

for the non kids here, no idea how Wittman doesn't top the list.
I don’t know, maybe it’s the .406 winning percentage & no college experience. I agree, you have no idea...
 
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Columbus-Boiler

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Riding a dead horse for another season and delaying the firing only puts the recovery out a year longer.

I think the real danger (if you want Archie gone) is he comes back next year, finishes say 7th or 8th in the B1G, makes the tournament as an 8 or 9 seed or something and goes 1-1 in the tournament (or even 0-1). Then some will want to keep him because he is showing improvement.
 

Coach Geez

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If Scott Dolson and his puppet masters at IU choose to retain Archie Miller for the 2021-22 season, it will be the clearest indication yet that the university simply is not serious about winning. That's really all there is to it.

Auburn University fired its former head football coach, Gus Malzahn, paying him $21.45 million to walk away. The Tigers' administration and boosters were united in their mission to win at the highest level. I simply do not believe IU is anywhere close to being that serious about winning.

And they ended up with Bryan Harisan, 2500 miles away from campus. Malzhan was 3-5 against Saban and went to a national title. Harsin is at best a lateral move. Anyone really not think Auburn is looking for a new head coach 3-4 years down the road? You think a guy from Boise is going to come to Auburn and compete and recruit against the big boys of the SEC? I have no issues moving on from Archie after this season. I have zero confidence that IU can make a financially stable hire. Simply paying for a new breath of fresh air isn’t going to move the needle in the long run.
 

IUgradman

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Archie hasn’t won at close to the level Malzahn has so moving on is much more justified. Any coach that just makes the tournament yearly will be celebrated at IU given what has happened the last couple of decades.
 

Jssanto

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Charisma, personality, charm may be the most important attribute for the next coach.
Sabin once said he does not coach, his assistants coach. He organizes.
We need a face of the program and it aint what we have now.
 

Mas-sa-suta

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I dont think I can watch next year if Archie is the coach.
A lot of people(including me) have already stopped watching...
It was like being forced to watch a bad movie over and over..
The team has just been going through the motions for weeks now..
 
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Jssanto

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A lot of people(including me) have already stopped watching...
It was like being forced to watch a bad movie over and over..
The team has just been going through the motions for weeks now..
I missed my first game in multiple years with MSU. I did not know we were playing that day.
 

Coach Geez

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Archie hasn’t won at close to the level Malzahn has so moving on is much more justified. Any coach that just makes the tournament yearly will be celebrated at IU given what has happened the last couple of decades.

I hope the goal going forward isn’t simply making the tournament. Certainly something that shouldn’t be celebrated either.
 

Al Bino

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I'm at the point where we should just roll time back and hire MD again. Given talent, which he can get, he had us about an inch away from a title, Don't break the bank and give him top assistants like a Fife and Mike Lewis. He admits he wasn't ready the first time and did the noble thing and resigned. Now says he's a 100X better coach and I believe that, he just doesn't have the resources where he is.

You CAN'T be serious??

Good grief, just shut the program down if that is where IU is.
 

Big Red Crimson Buffalo

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If Scott Dolson and his puppet masters at IU choose to retain Archie Miller for the 2021-22 season, it will be the clearest indication yet that the university simply is not serious about winning. That's really all there is to it.

Auburn University fired its former head football coach, Gus Malzahn, paying him $21.45 million to walk away. The Tigers' administration and boosters were united in their mission to win at the highest level. I simply do not believe IU is anywhere close to being that serious about winning.
Auburn brings in $153 million in annual sports revenue. IU brings in $128 million.
There’s your extra $25 million for a buyout.

If IU had a 90,000 seat stadium that they sold out every game, your problem is solved.
 
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VanPastorMan

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there in lies the rub. you're either in it to win it or you're not. if you're not i suggest we ditch the big ten and join the naia. we might actually be competitive there.
Then we could be like my cousin from Loogootee. He would come to Washington and we would play basketball at the ymca. One Saturday there were a couple of nine yr olds. We were 16-17 at the time. I would guard my nine yr old and would just put my hands up but allow him to get his shot off. My cousin when he guarded a nine yr old he would swat their ball out of bounds and act like he really accomplished something. I looked at him like he was an idiot.
 

MikeHoncho69

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A lot of people(including me) have already stopped watching...
It was like being forced to watch a bad movie over and over..
The team has just been going through the motions for weeks now..
As fans, we vote with our eyes and with our dollars. If a large enough segment of the fan base avoids watching games on TV, spending money on tickets for games at Assembly Hall, making donations to IU Athletics and buying merchandise, that will catch the attention of the decision makers. They only care about one thing and that's their financial statement.
 

demunn

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If you want the program to be part of your identity, there is no financial climate. Bama didn't go through five coaches in 10 years because they worried about finances. They have no tolerance for losing and football is their identity. If BB is ours, we'd better start being a bit more shrewd about expectations and worry about the cost of losing.

You think a coach would be at Bama not finishing in the top three of the SEC in four years?

Let's recap: 7th, 9th, 11th and likely 10th (or tied for 10th) in four years.
 

Nieman

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As fans, we vote with our eyes and with our dollars. If a large enough segment of the fan base avoids watching games on TV, spending money on tickets for games at Assembly Hall, making donations to IU Athletics and buying merchandise, that will catch the attention of the decision makers. They only care about one thing and that's their financial statement.
Not watching games on TV really doesn't do much if you still pay for the channels they're carried on.
 

SoccerSammy

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I think the real danger (if you want Archie gone) is he comes back next year, finishes say 7th or 8th in the B1G, makes the tournament as an 8 or 9 seed or something and goes 1-1 in the tournament (or even 0-1). Then some will want to keep him because he is showing improvement.
agreed. I think that's unlikely and impossible unless TJD stays... but that scares me also
 

Cavanagh.13

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If you want the program to be part of your identity, there is no financial climate. Bama didn't go through five coaches in 10 years because they worried about finances. They have no tolerance for losing and football is their identity. If BB is ours, we'd better start being a bit more shrewd about expectations and worry about the cost of losing.

You think a coach would be at Bama not finishing in the top three of the SEC in four years?

Let's recap: 7th, 9th, 11th and likely 10th (or tied for 10th) in four years.
Thank god we don't actually have 10 schools anymore. Well, 11, for that matter. Lord we suck.
 
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