Separation of church and state II . . .

[Sope Creek]

. . . a Cobb County Schools teacher has filed suit claiming that she has been retaliated against by her employer school system because she was transferred from what I'll call a premier elementary school close to her home to a lesser-performing school an additional 16 mile commute away. The reason for the retaliation? Some Baptist parents of one of her students at the premier school complained that her teaching of yoga to the kids - which helped with behavioral problems - constituted an establishment of Buddhism. Multiple courts in California have determined that teaching yoga didn't constitute an establishment of any religion . . . the teacher is taking this one a step further and is using that principle as a basis for claiming there was no basis for her transfer.

http://www.ajc.com/news/state--regi...other-religious-fight/DB4WihcN7wMfjQmLw9PEPJ/

[on edit]: Our church has an occasional class that teaches basic methods for meditation, some of which are secular in nature and some of which involve some theological aspects. Similar techniques such as biofeedback are used by therapists to assist with mental and emotional health issues . . . would the teaching in public schools of a form of meditation that is derived from religious practice (such as Transcendental meditation) but without the religious practice aspects be an Establishment Clause violation?

 

[TheOriginalHappyGoat]

. . . a Cobb County Schools teacher has filed suit claiming that she has been retaliated against by her employer school system because she was transferred from what I'll call a premier elementary school close to her home to a lesser-performing school an additional 16 mile commute away. The reason for the retaliation? Some Baptist parents of one of her students at the premier school complained that her teaching of yoga to the kids - which helped with behavioral problems - constituted an establishment of Buddhism. Multiple courts in California have determined that teaching yoga didn't constitute an establishment of any religion . . . the teacher is taking this one a step further and is using that principle as a basis for claiming there was no basis for her transfer.

http://www.ajc.com/news/state--regi...other-religious-fight/DB4WihcN7wMfjQmLw9PEPJ/

[on edit]: Our church has an occasional class that teaches basic methods for meditation, some of which are secular in nature and some of which involve some theological aspects. Similar techniques such as biofeedback are used by therapists to assist with mental and emotional health issues . . . would the teaching in public schools of a form of meditation that is derived from religious practice (such as Transcendental meditation) but without the religious practice aspects be an Establishment Clause violation?

Now, that is an interesting one. I'll have to mull this one over. I guess the question is this: can a religious activity be secularized enough so that it no longer constitutes a religious activity for Establishment Clause purposes? I'd say yes, it's perfectly possible. I mean, no one would argue there's a FA violation if a teacher puts a Christmas tree in the classroom, right? On the other hand, if the teacher put up a nativity scene, well that would be a problem.

But this is more than mere decoration. We're talking about active participation. And I'm certainly sensitive to the concerns of the parents. Even if the person doing the yoga considers it a purely secular activity, many Christians disagree, and the concerns of the parents can't be entirely ignored.

Tough one.

 

[Ladoga]

Now, that is an interesting one. I'll have to mull this one over. I guess the question is this: can a religious activity be secularized enough so that it no longer constitutes a religious activity for Establishment Clause purposes? I'd say yes, it's perfectly possible. I mean, no one would argue there's a FA violation if a teacher puts a Christmas tree in the classroom, right? On the other hand, if the teacher put up a nativity scene, well that would be a problem.

But this is more than mere decoration. We're talking about active participation. And I'm certainly sensitive to the concerns of the parents. Even if the person doing the yoga considers it a purely secular activity, many Christians disagree, and the concerns of the parents can't be entirely ignored.

Tough one.

I was going to say that while teaching some secularized form of something might be allowable, requiring participation or involvement as part of the class completion is quite another story. Such a requirement comes pretty close to expecting a student to learn and practice something that is part of a recognized religion.

 

[zeke4ahs]

I did yoga with my third graders for years, particularly before ISTEP tests. We actually did a school program with the kids participating. All kinds of research on how good it is for kids. Just stretching and positions....never discussed anything at all. I've taken yoga for years and never even thought about a religion. Wonder why they chose Buddhism as opposed to Hinduism?

 

[zeke4ahs]

Now that I think about it, I think the first yoga class I ever took was at my Christian church. And no one thought a thing about it. I can't imagine people truly getting offended by stretching.

 

[TheOriginalHappyGoat]

I was going to say that while teaching some secularized form of something might be allowable, requiring participation or involvement as part of the class completion is quite another story. Such a requirement comes pretty close to expecting a student to learn and practice something that is part of a recognized religion.

Well, they obviously can't require it. Even if it's fully secularized, the fact that the parents would find it against the religion they are choosing to teach their kids means that they would need to at least have an opt-out procedure in place.

But whether or not it's required really has no bearing on the Establishment Clause question. Even optional activities can be violations. Promotion of religion in an official capacity is a violation, even if it is voluntary.

Since we don't know the facts of the case, let's assume the teacher did allow children to opt out (because if she didn't, she probably has no case under any theory of the law). Then the real question becomes: can yoga - which was originally an inherently religious practice - be classified as a secular activity for Establishment Clause purposes? Notwithstanding the courts she cites in her favor, I'm not convinced it can be. Do a lot of people practice yoga in a secular fashion? Certainly, especially in America. According to a Forbes article from last year, 37 million Americans practice it, despite the fact that the total number of Buddhists and Hindus in the country add up to less than five million.

But just because something can be practiced secularly doesn't mean it qualifies as a secular practice. When I go to a Catholic church, I dutifully stand in line to receive a blessing from the priest. As a non-believer, this practice is for me a meaningful, but secular one. But that doesn't mean I should be allowed to organize communion for my public school class.

 

[hoot1]

The trend seems to be in the direction of allowing taxpayer funds to go to religious schools.

What will happen when schools which aren't Christian make appeals for public funds?

 

[TheOriginalHappyGoat]

The trend seems to be in the direction of allowing taxpayer funds to go to religious schools.

What will happen when schools which aren't Christian make appeals for public funds?

Then the true colors of some pro-voucher folks come shining through.

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friend...o-religious-schools-i-didnt-mean-muslim-ones/

 

[tigerchump]

Now that I think about it, I think the first yoga class I ever took was at my Christian church. And no one thought a thing about it. I can't imagine people truly getting offended by stretching.

Some people are offended now if you look at them.We live in an age where folks are way too sensitive.

 

[hootch1]

I never considered yoga as religious. But my Baptist days are long gone.

I suppose the argument is meditation is not a solely a religious activity. It has biological benefits. Of course that will not make the Baptists happy.

 

[i'vegotwinners]

i've never associated yoga with religion.

those parents are flat out nut jobs, as are any administrators that kowtow to such flat out nut jobs.

on a side note, is just wearing yoga pants a religious expression as well?

 

[TheOriginalHappyGoat]

i've never associated yoga with religion.

those parents are flat out nut jobs, as are any administrators that kowtow to such flat out nut jobs.

on a side note, is just wearing yoga pants a religious expression as well?

They're nut jobs because you don't know what yoga is? That seems fair.

 

[Digressions]

i've never associated yoga with religion.

those parents are flat out nut jobs, as are any administrators that kowtow to such flat out nut jobs.

on a side note, is just wearing yoga pants a religious expression as well?

I'm not sure about religious expression, but I've found some yoga pants to be a religious experience.

OTOH, maybe I've already spent too much time in the OTF?

 

[CO. Hoosier]

The trend seems to be in the direction of allowing taxpayer funds to go to religious schools.

What will happen when schools which aren't Christian make appeals for public funds?

I don't agree. A Colorado School District passed a creative scheme to allow public money in parochial schools. The Colorado Supremes shot it down on separation grounds and SCOTUS denied cert.

 

[TheOriginalHappyGoat]

I don't agree. A Colorado School District passed a creative scheme to allow public money in parochial schools. The Colorado Supremes shot it down on separation grounds and SCOTUS denied cert.

FWIW, according to the docket, they haven't ruled on cert yet.

That Colorado ruling made use of the argument I made in this thread, that, just because the Establishment Clause allows a certain government funding doesn't mean that states can't add their own restrictions without threatening the Free Exercise Clause.

 

[CO. Hoosier]

. . . a Cobb County Schools teacher has filed suit claiming that she has been retaliated against by her employer school system because she was transferred from what I'll call a premier elementary school close to her home to a lesser-performing school an additional 16 mile commute away. The reason for the retaliation? Some Baptist parents of one of her students at the premier school complained that her teaching of yoga to the kids - which helped with behavioral problems - constituted an establishment of Buddhism. Multiple courts in California have determined that teaching yoga didn't constitute an establishment of any religion . . . the teacher is taking this one a step further and is using that principle as a basis for claiming there was no basis for her transfer.

http://www.ajc.com/news/state--regi...other-religious-fight/DB4WihcN7wMfjQmLw9PEPJ/

[on edit]: Our church has an occasional class that teaches basic methods for meditation, some of which are secular in nature and some of which involve some theological aspects. Similar techniques such as biofeedback are used by therapists to assist with mental and emotional health issues . . . would the teaching in public schools of a form of meditation that is derived from religious practice (such as Transcendental meditation) but without the religious practice aspects be an Establishment Clause violation?

I don't think the case has much to do with yoga and religion. The central question is does the P have a vested right to remain at that school. Probably not. She probably can be reassigned for any or no reason. She would need to establish a recognizable deprivation of a right to get to the issue of why and whether her a right was taken away for improper reasons.

FWIW. My 5th grade grandson is taking yoga as an elective. After he began the class he scored his first hat trick in competition. He loves yoga because he connected the two events. He said the instructor tells the class to focus on breathing and form, no meditation is involved.

 

[CO. Hoosier]

FWIW, according to the docket, they haven't ruled on cert yet.

That Colorado ruling made use of the argument I made in this thread, that, just because the Establishment Clause allows a certain government funding doesn't mean that states can't add their own restrictions without threatening the Free Exercise Clause.

Hm. I recall that the case was finished. Maybe not.

 

[TheOriginalHappyGoat]

Hm. I recall that the case was finished. Maybe not.

My guess is, if Trinity Lutheran wins on the merits, that's a good sign that they'll probably grant cert in the Colorado case.

 

[SuperHoosierFan]

i've never associated yoga with religion.

those parents are flat out nut jobs, as are any administrators that kowtow to such flat out nut jobs.

on a side note, is just wearing yoga pants a religious expression as well?

Yoga pants can greatly enhance local scenery depending on who's wearing them.

 

[anon_mlxxvlbug9dpa]

. . . a Cobb County Schools teacher has filed suit claiming that she has been retaliated against by her employer school system because she was transferred from what I'll call a premier elementary school close to her home to a lesser-performing school an additional 16 mile commute away. The reason for the retaliation? Some Baptist parents of one of her students at the premier school complained that her teaching of yoga to the kids - which helped with behavioral problems - constituted an establishment of Buddhism. Multiple courts in California have determined that teaching yoga didn't constitute an establishment of any religion . . . the teacher is taking this one a step further and is using that principle as a basis for claiming there was no basis for her transfer.

http://www.ajc.com/news/state--regi...other-religious-fight/DB4WihcN7wMfjQmLw9PEPJ/

[on edit]: Our church has an occasional class that teaches basic methods for meditation, some of which are secular in nature and some of which involve some theological aspects. Similar techniques such as biofeedback are used by therapists to assist with mental and emotional health issues . . . would the teaching in public schools of a form of meditation that is derived from religious practice (such as Transcendental meditation) but without the religious practice aspects be an Establishment Clause violation?

I'm sorry. I can't finish the article. Essentially I can't get past the part where the CCSD put a sticker on science books declaring "evolution is a theory, not a fact."

How can anybody with at least an adult's intellect live there?

 

[anon_mlxxvlbug9dpa]

Now that I think about it, I think the first yoga class I ever took was at my Christian church. And no one thought a thing about it. I can't imagine people truly getting offended by stretching.

You've never lived in the Deep South then. My time in Columbus, GA is forever etched in my memory.

 

[SuperHoosierFan]

I'm sorry. I can't finish the article. Essentially I can't get past the part where the CCSD put a sticker on science books declaring "evolution is a theory, not a fact."

How can anybody with at least an adult's intellect live there?

As long as they are willing to simultaneously put on a sticker that says "creationism is a religious belief, not a fact".

 

[hoot1]

I don't agree. A Colorado School District passed a creative scheme to allow public money in parochial schools. The Colorado Supremes shot it down on separation grounds and SCOTUS denied cert.

I don't agree. A Colorado School District passed a creative scheme to allow public money in parochial schools. The Colorado Supremes shot it down on separation grounds and SCOTUS denied cert.

The trend I referred to is undoubtedly influenced by what the Indiana General Assembly has been doing lately along with looking ahead to a U.S. Supreme Court with two more "Scalias" in addition to Gorsuch.

The Colorado Supremes just might have to take a back seat if my crystal ball is sending me the right message.

 

[i'vegotwinners]

They're nut jobs because you don't know what yoga is? That seems fair.

they're nut jobs because they're nut jobs.

has nothing to do with me.

 

[Ladoga]

The trend I referred to is undoubtedly influenced by what the Indiana General Assembly has been doing lately along with looking ahead to a U.S. Supreme Court with two more "Scalias" in addition to Gorsuch.

The Colorado Supremes just might have to take a back seat if my crystal ball is sending me the right message.

What has the Indiana General Assembly been doing lately and when is the "lately" to which you refer?

 

[hoot1]

What has the Indiana General Assembly been doing lately and when is the "lately" to which you refer?

Lately, would be at least the last several years in my dog-eared book of memories. Heck, events which occurred some twenty years ago almost seem like yesterday.

Ladoga, sounds like Colorado could use the help of some real conservatives such as yourself .

 

[meridian]

I did yoga with my third graders for years, particularly before ISTEP tests. We actually did a school program with the kids participating. All kinds of research on how good it is for kids. Just stretching and positions....never discussed anything at all. I've taken yoga for years and never even thought about a religion. Wonder why they chose Buddhism as opposed to Hinduism?

You must thank that they did not relate it to Communism. It has happened before.

 

[meridian]

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friend...o-religious-schools-i-didnt-mean-muslim-ones/

That is truly amazing! In the 21st century? And in the co-called most advanced freedom-loving country?

 

[zeke4ahs]

You've never lived in the Deep South then. My time in Columbus, GA is forever etched in my memory.

Nope. Have not. Visited enough to know I would not be comfortable living there.

 

[CO. Hoosier]

How can anybody with at least an adult's intellect live there?

Anybody who knows what they believe and has robust coping skills.

 

[DrHoops]

Yoga pants can greatly enhance local scenery depending on who's wearing them.

 

[Ladoga]

Lately, would be at least the last several years in my dog-eared book of memories. Heck, events which occurred some twenty years ago almost seem like yesterday.

Ladoga, sounds like Colorado could use the help of some real conservatives such as yourself .

I had hoped, in order to advance the discussion, that you actually had specific occurances of legislative activity that you could site in considering your statement about the Indiana legislature. I'm disappointed that you mention nothing specific at all, but not surprised.

 

[hoot1]

I had hoped, in order to advance the discussion, that you actually had specific occurances of legislative activity that you could site in considering your statement about the Indiana legislature. I'm disappointed that you mention nothing specific at all, but not surprised.

Ladoga, I would give the past session of the Indiana General Assembly a B+ for passage of bills to improve roads and education.

In respect to the General Assembly in the past taking the state beyond the wall of separation, I can give a couple of quick examples. First would be to cite nearly all of the private schools receiving voucher money in Indiana being religious schools. In my view this is the use of tax dollars paying for the religious indoctrination of students.

Another example would an attempt to amend the Indiana Constitution to forbid same sex marriage or even civil unions, reflecting a preference for those religions that limit their definition of marriage to a man and woman.

 

[Sope Creek]

I'm sorry. I can't finish the article. Essentially I can't get past the part where the CCSD put a sticker on science books declaring "evolution is a theory, not a fact."

How can anybody with at least an adult's intellect live there?

Bigot.

 

[Sope Creek]

I don't think the case has much to do with yoga and religion. The central question is does the P have a vested right to remain at that school. Probably not. She probably can be reassigned for any or no reason. She would need to establish a recognizable deprivation of a right to get to the issue of why and whether her a right was taken away for improper reasons.

FWIW. My 5th grade grandson is taking yoga as an elective. After he began the class he scored his first hat trick in competition. He loves yoga because he connected the two events. He said the instructor tells the class to focus on breathing and form, no meditation is involved.

I think that's right, CO. My thought when I first heard about it was that P was trying to piggy back the retaliation claim onto the yoga-as-religion arguments, and I'm not sure that her argument is all that meritorious.

I'd guess that another issue is whether the school system followed its prescribed disciplinary process in reassigning her, if the reassignment is for reasons related to her teaching of yoga in the classroom. Georgia doesn't allow public unions at all, but there are some procedural protections akin to what union contracts provide for in some circumstances. I'd be interested to know what the school system's stated reasons for the transfer are.