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"Secular stagnation" sounds boring, but it's really important

Rockfish1

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David Leonhardt notes that, in almost every year since we began our ongoing recovery from the Great Recession, the economy has performed worse than the experts predicted. If the economy had performed as well as the forecasts, GDP would be $1.3 trillion higher today.

Leonhardt credits economist Larry Summers for spotting this trend of "secular stagnation" before anyone else did: Even though the economy seems to be running at peak capacity, there's no inflation, and aggregate demand remains slack. It looks like we're seeing a long term reduction of potential GDP. The economy is sick.

[This, by the way, was among the consequences that were actually predicted -- right here, among other places -- as a result of our historic failure to make no-brainer infrastructure investments during a period when the bond market would literally have paid us to borrow the money. Thanks again, Republicans, for your obstinate insistence on austerity when there's a Democrat in the White House.]

Several years ago, Lawrence Summers — the economist and former Treasury secretary — began using the phrase “secular stagnation” to describe the problem. The term was originally coined during the Great Depression, and it describes an economy that can’t quite get healthy.

When Summers first made his case in 2013, some other economists criticized it as too pessimistic. But the repeated growth shortfalls of recent years suggest he was onto something. At last week’s conference, hosted by the Brookings Institution, Olivier Blanchard — the former chief economist of the International Monetary Fund — said he was now more persuaded by the secular-stagnation story than he first had been. It is, Blanchard said, “more likely than not.”

There are two main culprits. The first is a savings glut. Americans are saving more and spending less partly because the rich now take home so much of the economy’s income — and the rich don’t spend as large a share of their income as the poor and middle class. The aging of society plays a role too, because people are saving for retirement.

The second big cause is an investment slump. Despite all the savings available to be invested, companies are holding back. Some have grown so large and monopoly-like that they don’t need to invest in new projects to make profits. Think about your internet provider: It may have terrible customer service, but you don’t have a lot of alternatives. The company doesn’t need to invest in new technology or employees to keep you as a customer.

Beside a lack of competition, the investment slump stems from what Summers calls the de-massification of the economy. Developers aren’t building as many malls and stores, because goods now go straight from warehouses to homes. Offices don’t need as much storage space. Cellphones have replaced not just desktop computers but also cameras, stereos, books and more. Many young people have decided they’re happy living in small apartments, without cars.

For all of these economic problems, there are promising solutions. But the United States is not giving those solutions a try.

The 2017 Trump tax law is a useful case study. It is a dreadful piece of economic policy — essentially a giant effort to aggravate income inequality. Tax cuts that benefit the wealthy most are huge and permanent. Tax cuts focused on everyone else are smaller and temporary.

But the law still pumped money into the economy last year, thanks largely to those temporary tax cuts for the middle class and poor. And guess what? G.D.P. growth finally met some forecasters’ expectations, as you can see from the first chart above. The economy expanded 2.9 percent in 2018. Unfortunately, the boost seems to have been temporary. In the first quarter of this year, growth has slowed markedly, probably to about 0.5 percent. It will most likely grow faster over the rest of 2019, but not 3 percent. Once again, economists have started downgrading their expectations.

A better policy response would start with a tax cut focused on the majority of Americans, not the wealthy. And there are many other ways to take on secular stagnation. When I spoke to Summers last week, he rattled off a list:

Infrastructure projects, to jump-start investment. The retirement of coal-fired power plants, which would also lead to new investment. Stronger safety-net programs, including Social Security, to reduce the savings glut. More aggressive antitrust policies, to combat monopolies. And a Federal Reserve that, at long last, stopped making the same mistake — of overestimating both growth and inflation.
So, among many other things, we should (1) redistribute income away from the wealthy (who mostly don't spend it) to ordinary people who desperately need more money to spend; (2) protect and expand safety net spending; (3) invest in infrastructure; and (4) break up the huge corporations that are extracting rents from us. Not only would measures like these produce a more equitable distribution of income, they'd also make the economy grow faster.

Needless to say, none of this will happen if we elect Republicans. And all the Very Serious People ridicule the loony Democrats who are proposing action in all of these areas. We really just aren't very bright, it seems.
 
I saw yesterday that AOC mentioned that government spending isn't a zero sum game. I would argue that especially in infrastructure that is true (I would argue elsewhere as well, just more strongly for infrastructure). The pie can be grown so that even if a billionaire is taxed more for it, said billionaire may well still come out ahead.

I saw a couple weeks ago that new car payments are at a record high. One of the reasons is that no one buys cars, and SUVs sell for a lot more. This will have an interesting problem on American consumers. The number of people who can afford a new car will drop. But also the number of people who can afford a later model used car will also drop. We know already used car prices are at record highs. This is going to have a big impact on working poor, especially in cities without decent mass transit. How do people get to work if they can't afford to get to work?

And this all goes to your point, we lack enough consumers. As more and more money sits in fewer and fewer bank accounts, the number of widgets Americans are willing to buy goes down. Bill Gates can only have interest in so many widgets. His money, spread out of a thousand families, would allow for many more widgets to be sold. I don't know how the fallacy got so accepted that all America needs if for its billionaires to be happy, but I'm pretty sure that fallacy has failed us. And some of them (Gates and Buffett) admit as much.

This is a few years old, but explains the shrinkage of the middle class. But anything thought of to deal with that must first make sure the wealthiest Americans get another tax cut. I don't know how that has become our hammer, but it has.
 
Just a comment about the more affluent and the infrastructure.

The comparatively rich community of Indianapolis known as Carmel is proudly declaring itself as virtually free of potholes as the citizens of poor old Indianapolis are thinking about renaming their town...Dodge City.
 
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And this all goes to your point, we lack enough consumers. As more and more money sits in fewer and fewer bank accounts, the number of widgets Americans are willing to buy goes down. Bill Gates can only have interest in so many widgets. His money, spread out of a thousand families, would allow for many more widgets to be sold. I don't know how the fallacy got so accepted that all America needs if for its billionaires to be happy, but I'm pretty sure that fallacy has failed us. And some of them (Gates and Buffett) admit as much.

Marvin, are you looking at the data or is this your personal view based on qualitative measures?

PCE as a percentage of GDP has dipped some over the past two years, but there is nothing that suggests there is a structural change in consumer spending...

fredgraph.png


...and Real PCE per Capita is still trending higher

fredgraph.png
 
I saw a couple weeks ago that new car payments are at a record high. One of the reasons is that no one buys cars, and SUVs sell for a lot more. This will have an interesting problem on American consumers. The number of people who can afford a new car will drop. But also the number of people who can afford a later model used car will also drop. We know already used car prices are at record highs. This is going to have a big impact on working poor, especially in cities without decent mass transit. How do people get to work if they can't afford to get to work?

This is an interesting thought. It's not all bad news though as there are still some very strong new car models.

http://www.goodcarbadcar.net/2018/1...-sales-rankings-best-selling-cars-in-america/
 
American investors have the whole world to find investments in countries where incomes and consumption are rising.

In reading about the problems with our economy in Rock's excellent link, American capitalists will certainly consider looking at opportunities in other countries.
 
Marvin, are you looking at the data or is this your personal view based on qualitative measures?

PCE as a percentage of GDP has dipped some over the past two years, but there is nothing that suggests there is a structural change in consumer spending...

fredgraph.png


...and Real PCE per Capita is still trending higher

fredgraph.png
I don't understand why you think the real PCE chart is good news. Yes, it shows rising expenditures, but they're still way behind the prior trend. We're on a rising path, but it's still on a trajectory to remain below the path we used to be on. The difference between the prior potential and the current reality reflects a huge social welfare loss.
 
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American investors have the whole world to find investments in countries where incomes and consumption are rising.

In reading about the problems with our economy in Rock's excellent link, American capitalists will certainly consider looking at opportunities in other countries.

The Asian (China and India included) middle class is expected to increase it's purchasing power by 115% from 2015 to 2025. That's an enormous exogenous change that we have little control over, but our investors and companies can take advantage of. I think the most interesting thing about the next twenty years will be to watch the China population peak and decline and its effect on the economy. Just as interesting will be figuring out how we stack up in terms of living standards in 2030 and 2040, as the global middle class becomes the largest socioeconomic group.

https://www.brookings.edu/research/the-unprecedented-expansion-of-the-global-middle-class-2/

global_20170228_global-middle-class-2.png
 
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I don't understand why you think the real PCE chart is good news. Yes, it shows rising expenditures, but they're still way behind the prior trend. We're on a rising path, but it's still on a trajectory to remain below the path we used to be on. The difference between the prior potential and the current reality reflects a huge social welfare loss.
For the curious, here's a graphical explainer on the problem with persistent output gaps. That's from 2010, by the way.
 
Marvin, are you looking at the data or is this your personal view based on qualitative measures?

PCE as a percentage of GDP has dipped some over the past two years, but there is nothing that suggests there is a structural change in consumer spending...

fredgraph.png


...and Real PCE per Capita is still trending higher

fredgraph.png

It is personal, but when I Google household debt, stories like this appear. Unlike the feds, there is a maximum debt amount consumers can have. A lot of our growth since the Great Recession appears to be debt driven. What happens when we all max out?
 
Just a comment about the more affluent and the infrastructure.

The comparatively rich community of Indianapolis known as Carmel is proudly declaring itself as virtually free of potholes as the citizens of poor old Indianapolis are thinking about renaming their town...Dodge City.


Until we get a regional commuter tax, it's going to be a big problem. 100k people a day come into Marion County to work (using the roads) but zero of their local income tax dollars stay.

Really infuriating how awful the roads have gotten in Indy.
 
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I don't understand why you think the real PCE chart is good news. Yes, it shows rising expenditures, but they're still way behind the prior trend. We're on a rising path, but it's still on a trajectory to remain below the path we used to be on. The difference between the prior potential and the current reality reflects a huge social welfare loss.

I never said it was good, bad or otherwise. Marvin made a statement that didn't seem to make sense with the data, so I provided the data and he has an opportunity to explain or prove why we lack enough "consumers" and alluded to the wealth concentration was hurting consumer spending. The data disagrees.

The output gap, as you love to call it, is due to a myriad of factors. To claim it is because of one or three is naive.
 
I never said it was good, bad or otherwise. Marvin made a statement that didn't seem to make sense with the data, so I provided the data and he has an opportunity to explain or prove why we lack enough "consumers" and alluded to the wealth concentration was hurting consumer spending. The data disagrees.

The output gap, as you love to call it, is due to a myriad of factors. To claim it is because of one or three is naive.
Yeah. That's the problem. I'm naive.
 
Until we get a regional commuter tax, it's going to be a big problem. 100k people a day come into Marion County to work (using the roads) but zero of their local income tax dollars stay.

Really infuriating how awful the roads have gotten in Indy.

Don't those commuters pay sales taxes and help support local businesses and wage earners that do work in Marion Co.? Should municipalities increase their sales tax to help fund these repairs and/or upgrades?
 
It is personal, but when I Google household debt, stories like this appear. Unlike the feds, there is a maximum debt amount consumers can have. A lot of our growth since the Great Recession appears to be debt driven. What happens when we all max out?

I don't disagree, but are we really that close? And has what does it say that household debt may be rising, but is well below its peak as a % of GDP (and declining)? Is that perhaps why we aren't consistently growing faster as an economy?

united-states-households-debt-to-gdp.png
 
Until we get a regional commuter tax, it's going to be a big problem. 100k people a day come into Marion County to work (using the roads) but zero of their local income tax dollars stay.

Really infuriating how awful the roads have gotten in Indy.

Also, household debt to GDP is considerably higher in other developed countries that often draw substantial praise when discussed economically and politically by some on this board.

https://tradingeconomics.com/country-list/households-debt-to-gdp
 
Don't those commuters pay sales taxes and help support local businesses and wage earners that do work in Marion Co.? Should municipalities increase their sales tax to help fund these repairs and/or upgrades?


Sales tax isn't nearly enough....what would that be? Buying lunch a few days a week (maybe?)?

They should split up up the local income tax (75% to your home county, 25% to your place of work). Where you work requires police/fire protection and obviously the roads to get you there. These workers contribute basically zero towards that.
 
Yeah. I see that this is going nowhere.

What do I need to spell out for you? I feel like I am being trolled. Marvin made a claim that our consumers are over-levered and cited a source indicating that household debt has increased for the third consecutive year.

If you put it into context, our households are far less leveraged than they were in the mid-2000s and are far less leveraged than most developed countries that people like to draw comparisons to, primarily Europe (SK also not a bad comp).

My point is, you doom and gloom guys are unfairly bearish.
 
What do I need to spell out for you? I feel like I am being trolled. Marvin made a claim that our consumers are over-levered and cited a source indicating that household debt has increased for the third consecutive year.

If you put it into context, our households are far less leveraged than they were in the mid-2000s and are far less leveraged than most developed countries that people like to draw comparisons to, primarily Europe (SK also not a bad comp).

My point is, you doom and gloom guys are unfairly bearish.

Short term, I am not bearish. But we will be running $1 trillion deficits, how long is that sustainable? For 20 years, compensation has done ok but wages have not. Too much income is caught into health care. Rock has frequently linked the charts showing the rocketing of the top 1-2% while everyone else has been flat for 40 years, is that sustainable?

We also have shown the charts of how much we have infrastructure needs. The catch is, if already a trillion down per year where do we get the political will to repair roads, replace dams and sewers?

We have had structural issues for a long time. Maybe they will fix themselves?
 
What do I need to spell out for you? I feel like I am being trolled. Marvin made a claim that our consumers are over-levered and cited a source indicating that household debt has increased for the third consecutive year.

If you put it into context, our households are far less leveraged than they were in the mid-2000s and are far less leveraged than most developed countries that people like to draw comparisons to, primarily Europe (SK also not a bad comp).

My point is, you doom and gloom guys are unfairly bearish.


I think he was confused because you quoted me instead of Marv.

I was too for a minute
 
Short term, I am not bearish. But we will be running $1 trillion deficits, how long is that sustainable? For 20 years, compensation has done ok but wages have not. Too much income is caught into health care. Rock has frequently linked the charts showing the rocketing of the top 1-2% while everyone else has been flat for 40 years, is that sustainable?

The "rocketing" top 1-2% derive most of their income from transactions, not from wages or compensation. The highest paid CEO's make salaries in the area of $50m per year. The highest paid hedge fund guys, who make money from transactions, count annual income in the billions. These are importantly different kinds of income, yet they are charted on the same graph. Trump campaigned on addressing part of the transaction problem with taxing carried interest at ordinary income rates. That idea never found its way into the final reforms. I have looked around for reasons why, but haven't found any other than knowing the Goldman Sachs crowd considerably influences both parties.

As for compensation inequality, we can begin to address that with the same type of discrimination testing we do with employee benefit plans. But nobody, as far as I know, has proposed that simple solution.

We know that the largest companies (in terms of market cap) in the US are tech companies, like Apple, Microsoft, Amazon, Alphabet, and Facebook. The employees there are either the highly compensated techies or those who clean the floors and bathrooms for $12 or $15 per hour. There is no lane for the middle class blue collar workers. Techies are earning big bucks for what they know and the intellectual property they either produce or apply. When knowledge instead of labor is the valuable commodity, there is no room for blue collar types here either. Yet, we have shortages of blue collar workers in many industries. Drivers of all kinds and in almost all places are in demand and available jobs go unfilled. We've discussed often how the demand for other skilled labor and "dirty" jobs exceeds the supply. Those are blue collar jobs waiting to be filled.

There is no single or dominant government policy that allows these kinds of inequalities. Inequality happens for reasons mostly disconnected from government. So short of playing Robin Hood, I don't know what government can do to significantly close the gap.

I agree that lifting the lower paid workers is an important objective. Henry Ford figured this out more than 100 years ago. I'm all for removing the obstacles to upward mobility. But when we consider the blue collar jobs that go unfilled, the problem takes on a different dimension. I don't believe the hedge fund guys exact rents from the rest of us. Transactional income is derived from steadily increasing values of assets, not from grabbing a disproportionate share of profits from selling a widget. Even so, if we can figure out how to pay more for drivers and others, maybe those jobs can be filled. But that increase will likely be paid by those who benefit from those services. I don't think the suits in these industries are making a killing. It's a tough problem.
 
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The highest paid CEO's make salaries in the area of $50m per year

That's including stock and other non-illiquid compensation I assume? I'm asking because I have not looked, but that seems higher than I would expect for a cash number.
 
The highest paid hedge fund guys, who make money from transactions, count annual income in the billions

They also make much less the next year, with some exceptions (Griffin, Dalio, maybe Singer now). Look at the performance of Einhorn, Ackman, Paulson, etc. Those massive amounts do not last for the majority of even the smartest individuals.

Trump campaigned on addressing part of the transaction problem with taxing carried interest at ordinary income rates. That idea never found its way into the final reforms. I have looked around for reasons why, but haven't found any other than knowing the Goldman Sachs crowd considerably influences both parties

LOL, always blaming "Goldman Sachs" as if its employees operate with a carried interest structure. Goldman guys ARE paying ordinary income rates because they aren't in a GP/LP structure. This is such a Liz Warren comment from you. Or maybe more aptly, Carl Levin.

Aside from that, you did see movement under Trump:

The Tax Cuts and Jobs Act slightly curtailed the tax preference for carried interest, requiring an investment fund to hold assets for more than three years, rather than one year, to treat any gains allocated to its investment managers as long term. Gains from the sale of assets held three years or less would be short term, taxed at a top rate of 40.8 percent

I would like to hear your rationale for taxing at ordinary vs. capital gains for private equity funds or any long-term related fund holdings of securities/assets (I'd include HFs, but they probably don't do this).

NOTE: I'm not presently invested as a GP in any GP/LP structures so this has zero impact on my personal financial situation
 
They also make much less the next year, with some exceptions (Griffin, Dalio, maybe Singer now). Look at the performance of Einhorn, Ackman, Paulson, etc. Those massive amounts do not last for the majority of even the smartest individuals.

They might be different people in the stratosphere, but there is always somebody. The point I tried to make is that the transaction income is usually where we find the "rocketing" increases and that income is different from salaries and bonuses.

always blaming "Goldman Sachs"

I used GS as a bumper sticker symbol for those who are invested in reserving the monstrous incomes for the hedge fund industry. If there is a more appropriate symbol, I'll gladly use it. I was unaware of what effect tax reform had on carried interest. I'll look into that. The search I did about this after TR passed didn't reveal this. Thanks for bringing it up.

I favor capital gains tax rates for capital assets that have a direct relationship to producing goods and services. Capital that doesn't serve that segment of the economy, but instead are simply a new kind of paper, (like the paper we read about in The Big Short) not so much. But I'm willing to consider the arguments about that.
 
You said highest CEOs.

Those incomes are not cash coming out of the fund. I don't know the structure but much of that income is akin to CEO restricted stock

Is restricted stock counted as income when the stock is received or when the stock is liquidated? I frankly don't know.
 
I would like to hear your rationale for taxing at ordinary vs. capital gains for private equity funds or any long-term related fund holdings of securities/assets (I'd include HFs, but they probably don't do this).

I would like to know the rationale for taxing any income differently?

Added on edit. Donald Trump buys a 50 foot portrait for $1 million, sells it to Trump Foundation 2.0 for $10 million, he pays taxes on the $9 million at 1) the "normal rate 2) capital gains rate? Why, what benefit does society gain from capping his taxes on this investment?
 
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Is restricted stock counted as income when the stock is received or when the stock is liquidated? I frankly don't know.
Can be both. When stock is granted, it is taxed at that time. That becomes your cost basis. If you hold the stock 1 year after receiving it, you would qualify for long term gains (or losses). Anything sold less than 1 year would be a short term gain or loss.
 
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Is restricted stock counted as income when the stock is received or when the stock is liquidated? I frankly don't know.

I believe when it gets awarded, but not certain. This is my point on CEO comp:

Individual CEO compensation elements and compensation mix
Exceptional financial market performance continued to fuel the recourse to equity-based compensation, with the pay mix analysis confirming the inexorable rise of stock awards at the expense of both annual bonus and stock options. Compensation committees of boards of directors have continued to take advantage of high equity valuations to increase the amount of pay at risk and shift the weighting of compensation elements from cash to stock. Up from 22.8 percent in 2010 to 36.7 percent in 2016 in the Russell 3000 and from 32 percent to 47.4 percent in the S&P 500, stock awards occupy a greater portion of total pay than ever before. Only seven year ago, base salary represented 30.25 percent of the typical CEO pay mix, a share that fell consistently over time to reach 23.93 percent in 2016; in the S&P 500, it went from 14.22 percent in 2010 to 11.3 percent last year.
 
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Can be both. When stock is granted, it is taxed at that time. That becomes your cost basis. If you hold the stock 1 year after receiving it, you would qualify for long term gains (or losses). Anything sold less than 1 year would be a short term gain or loss.

That makes sense for unrestricted stock. But what if the stock is restricted such that it can't be liquidated (say to outsiders) until the expiration of a specified time. Still taxed at the time of receipt?
 
I believe when it gets awarded, but not certain. This is my point on CEO comp:

Individual CEO compensation elements and compensation mix
Exceptional financial market performance continued to fuel the recourse to equity-based compensation, with the pay mix analysis confirming the inexorable rise of stock awards at the expense of both annual bonus and stock options. Compensation committees of boards of directors have continued to take advantage of high equity valuations to increase the amount of pay at risk and shift the weighting of compensation elements from cash to stock. Up from 22.8 percent in 2010 to 36.7 percent in 2016 in the Russell 3000 and from 32 percent to 47.4 percent in the S&P 500, stock awards occupy a greater portion of total pay than ever before. Only seven year ago, base salary represented 30.25 percent of the typical CEO pay mix, a share that fell consistently over time to reach 23.93 percent in 2016; in the S&P 500, it went from 14.22 percent in 2010 to 11.3 percent last year.

If I understand your explanation correctly, in those cases where a CEO makes a huge income, some (most?) of the income is not a corporate expense because it seems to come from the increase of the value of stock. Correct? This suggests that high CE bonuses are not paid from the funds available for other employee compensation. Are hedge fund managers, whose incomes are really those in the stratosphere, compensated in the same manner?

Thanks for you patience with your responses.
 
I would like to know the rationale for taxing any income differently?

Added on edit. Donald Trump buys a 50 foot portrait for $1 million, sells it to Trump Foundation 2.0 for $10 million, he pays taxes on the $9 million at 1) the "normal rate 2) capital gains rate? Why, what benefit does society gain from capping his taxes on this investment?

Good question and I'll need to research it more. The central goal of the tax was to spur investment in assets that generate economic activity. I really respect the Tax Foundation and the data is concerning for the value capital gains tax provides. However, there are quite a few other factors that play into GDP growth, so I am not ready to simply give up on the idea of capital gains.

An adjacent article talks about exclusions and art is one of them, so your Trump humor is unfortunately, incorrect ;)
https://www.taxpolicycenter.org/briefing-book/how-are-capital-gains-taxed
Gains on art and collectibles are taxed at ordinary income tax rates up to a maximum rate of 28 percent.

Ironically, Reagan proposed an effective elimination of capital gains (particularly for the highest bracket), but that didn't last:

The Tax Reform Act of 1986, signed by President Ronald Reagan, raised tax rates on capital gains and lowered rates on ordinary income but set the same 28 percent top rate for both. The goal: reducing tax planning devoted to converting ordinary income to capital gains. The policy worked—briefly. Successive congresses raised the top rate on ordinary income (now 40.8 percent) and reduced the top rate on capital gains (now 23.8 percent). As the gap between the two rates grew, so did the incentives to manipulate the system. Now might be a good time to once again tax capital gains and ordinary income at the same rate, which could be higher than today’s rate on capital gains but lower than the current rate on ordinary income.
 
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