Sec of Education - Holy Moly

[hoosboot]

I mean think of this shit. John Burroughs high school here is $40k a year. Davidson college $65k. 8 years of grade school $20k a year.

That’s $580k in tuition. To compete for a job in Atlanta against a kid from boca who spent 12 years in public then went to UF and got a degree for $50k. I do not believe there will be any difference between these two kids other than a half mil plus in tuition

It's a great point. Depends on the kid. A lot of the time, it's an arms race for cache for parents. I have a friend who put three kids through six years of private school at $40-$50K per year (before the school "fundraisers") and then is sending his kids to places like Colorado College, Gonzaga, and Chapman. The thing his kids have is the gift of gab and they would have been fine if they had skipped college entirely. He'll be $1.8M in on them by the time they leave college with a major in the Beverage and Inhaling Arts, but they'll have had a blast and be on their way to a fine business career. 🤣

And, hell, ain't nothing wrong with that if you can afford it.

 

[mcmurtry66]

It's a great point. Depends on the kid. A lot of the time, it's an arms race for cache for parents. I have a friend who put three kids through six years of private school at $40-$50K per year (before the school "fundraisers") and then is sending his kids to places like Colorado College, Gonzaga, and Chapman. The thing his kids have is the gift of gab and they would have been fine if they had skipped college entirely. He'll be $1.8M in on them by the time they leave college with a major in the Beverage and Inhaling Arts, but they'll have had a blast and be on their way to a fine business career. 🤣

And, hell, ain't nothing wrong with that if you can afford it.

Well and that’s probably it. Some are just loaded and others preoccupied with cachet

 

[BradStevens]

It’s just in that next level of good schools. Step down. But markedly ahead of Indiana mizzou types. My buddy’s kid went to John Burroughs high school. Expensive rich kid private school. Perfect type for Davidson. I don’t know. I just think if you’re not on a certain path or have a calling, young Sheldon, the expensive elite schools may not be worth it. Or create the best memories and experiences. Shit I went to law school with a bunch of these types. From Ivy League undergrads. Also Vandy. Emory. Wash u. Davidson. On and on. And sure you can sort of tell. Cortez’s haircut for instance, but ultimately what was the point

All the people I went to law school with who went to Ivies but who had not-so-great GPAs, got plum jobs out of law school that set them up pretty well. I think the degree opens doors and provides a significant leg up, even if the education you receive is on par with a good state school. Most of the rankings services that take into account value of education vs. earnings afterwards back this up.

 

[hoosboot]

Well and that’s probably it. Some are just loaded and others preoccupied with cachet

And some kids are tech geniuses, some kids are born networkers, some kids are blessed with the ability to fix anything, and some kids won't figure out who they are until they're 40. We do much better as parents when it's more about the kids and less about us.

 

[mcmurtry66]

All the people I went to law school with who went to Ivies but who had not-so-great GPAs, got plum jobs out of law school that set them up pretty well. I think the degree opens doors and provides a significant leg up, even if the education you receive is on par with a good state school. Most of the rankings services that take into account value of education vs. earnings afterwards back this up.

I don’t disagree with that. But you’re looking at 40 years of work. Entry certainly makes a difference but does it for the duration of your career? When people bounce as much as they do today. I’m skeptical. Maybe it does.

 

[hoosboot]

All the people I went to law school with who went to Ivies but who had not-so-great GPAs, got plum jobs out of law school that set them up pretty well. I think the degree opens doors and provides a significant leg up, even if the education you receive is on par with a good state school. Most of the rankings services that take into account value of education vs. earnings afterwards back this up.

Plum jobs are nice, but I can't help wondering what their network was like prior to the Ivy. Undergrad degrees seem overvalued to me and grad degrees a bit undervalued.

 

[mcmurtry66]

And some kids are tech geniuses, some kids are born networkers, some kids are blessed with the ability to fix anything, and some kids won't figure out who they are until they're 40. We do much better as parents when it's more about the kids and less about us.

And how are we valuing it as well. Edification. Or money? I know guys renting cars who are in their early 30s making more money than partners at Bryan cave. I know way ups at the car rental that make considerably more than senior partners at Bryan cave. Guys who went to shitty local directional schools got a bachelors then straight to renting cars

 

[hoosboot]

And how are we valuing it as well. Edification. Or money? I know guys renting cars who are in their early 30s making more money than partners at Bryan cave. I know way ups at the car rental that make considerably more than senior partners at Bryan cave. Guys who went to shitty local directional schools got a bachelors then straight to renting cars

It's a great point.

Happiness. What college you want to probably doesn't decide whether you have it. But most parents I know would trade anything to insure that's what their kids have when they grow up.

 

[mcmurtry66]

It's a great point.

Happiness. What college you want to probably doesn't decide whether you have it. But most parents I know would trade anything to insure that's what their kids have when they grow up.

Yes. Happiness. And all that career stuff is too much to expect a 20 year old to be able to predict in terms of a happy working life.

 

[BradStevens]

I don’t disagree with that. But you’re looking at 40 years of work. Entry certainly makes a difference but does it for the duration of your career? When people bounce as much as they do today. I’m skeptical. Maybe it does.

Most lawyers are fungible, dude. Firms want to say "Oh, we've got X number of IvyLeague degrees" when they go to try to lure that big client away from the other BigFirm, just as a CYA for the hiring guy at the corp. "Yeah, we're changing or giving this big case/contract to X because look at this stellar resume, etc." even if it's really because that partner at X networked him and bought him a few hookers down in the Bahamas at that conference last year.

 

[BradStevens]

Plum jobs are nice, but I can't help wondering what their network was like prior to the Ivy. Undergrad degrees seem overvalued to me and grad degrees a bit undervalued.

The Ivy probably helps the network. Nice to be able to go to a firm and say you know all these kids from Dartmouth or wherever that have the potential to end up CEO or hiring decision makers in the future.

 

[mcmurtry66]

The Ivy probably helps the network. Nice to be able to go to a firm and say you know all these kids from Dartmouth or wherever that have the potential to end up CEO or hiring decision makers in the future.

If you have any sort of personality I suspect that network of friends you build in the Ivy is most important. Same from rich private high schools. Your buddy who becomes ceo and throws your firm business. Your buddy that helps invest in your stuff bc they have the means. The circle you create

 

[BadWakeboarder]

It seems like one of those schools that has more regional influence than national to me. Davidson means something significant in the Carolinas, but doesn't mean much of anything in Texas or Colorado or Missouri. Kind of like a DePauw on steroids. It's a nice school if you go work in Indianapolis, but everyone more than 200 miles away thinks you went to school in Chicago. 🤣

Every region has one of these schools. Western PA has Duquesne which is an overpriced school that is known for Law and is expensive so people here respect it. Outside of western PA, people had never heard of it before they made a run in the tourney a couple years ago.

 

[BradStevens]

It's a great point.

Happiness. What college you want to probably doesn't decide whether you have it. But most parents I know would trade anything to insure that's what their kids have when they grow up.

I think the college does matter on that, but you're not going to be able to figure that out. Too many variables.

Re happiness being the trade off, aren't you then making a decision for that kid? Some people value achievement and status above happiness. One could argue our current culture values personal happiness too much. Just one more reason being a parent is so freakin' hard--damned if you do, damned if you don't and you can never really know what would have happened in the counterfactual situation.

 

[BadWakeboarder]

And how are we valuing it as well. Edification. Or money? I know guys renting cars who are in their early 30s making more money than partners at Bryan cave. I know way ups at the car rental that make considerably more than senior partners at Bryan cave. Guys who went to shitty local directional schools got a bachelors then straight to renting cars

Is Bryan Cave on Epstein island?

 

[BradStevens]

Is Bryan Cave on Epstein island?

They should be. Theyr'e assholes.

 

[hoosboot]

I think the college does matter on that, but you're not going to be able to figure that out. Too many variables.

Re happiness being the trade off, aren't you then making a decision for that kid? Some people value achievement and status above happiness. One could argue our current culture values personal happiness too much. Just one more reason being a parent is so freakin' hard--damned if you do, damned if you don't and you can never really know what would have happened in the counterfactual situation.

I've said before that I'm a self-determination junkie. If they value achievement and status above happiness, I guess I'd argue that achievement and status are what bring them happiness and be fine with that. I don't think you're making that decision for a kid if you are putting as much of the decision-making as you can in the kid's hands and being okay with them making their own decisions (and their own mistakes). It's hard work helping them develop the tools to make those decisions, but it's sort of a teaching a man to fish vs. giving him fish kind of thing to me.

 

[hoot1]

All the people I went to law school with who went to Ivies but who had not-so-great GPAs, got plum jobs out of law school that set them up pretty well. I think the degree opens doors and provides a significant leg up, even if the education you receive is on par with a good state school. Most of the rankings services that take into account value of education vs. earnings afterwards back this up.

The book Winner Take All Society although written in 1988 supports your remarks about the Ivies.

Recall, however, the authors called attention to the Ivies requiring top SAT scores.

 

[BradStevens]

I've said before that I'm a self-determination junkie. If they value achievement and status above happiness, I guess I'd argue that achievement and status are what bring them happiness and be fine with that. I don't think you're making that decision for a kid if you are putting as much of the decision-making as you can in the kid's hands and being okay with them making their own decisions (and their own mistakes). It's hard work helping them develop the tools to make those decisions, but it's sort of a teaching a man to fish vs. giving him fish kind of thing to me.

I get it. I think about it all the time.

But many times I know I'm right about something, and they haven't thought something all the way through, and I just don't want them making a stupid mistake. Not sure where to draw the line. It's a constant deliberation.

 

[hoosboot]

I get it. I think about it all the time.

But many times I know I'm right about something, and they haven't thought something all the way through, and I just don't want them making a stupid mistake. Not sure where to draw the line. It's a constant deliberation.

That's one of the many reasons I'm sure you're a great Dad and I'm certain you're one of the best posters here - you wonder and you deliberate about the lines to draw.

I'm pretty sure one of the few things we can be certain of as parents is that we're making lots of mistakes, too!

 

[BradStevens]

That's one of the many reasons I'm sure you're a great Dad and I'm certain you're one of the best posters here - you wonder and you deliberate about the lines to draw.

I'm pretty sure one of the few things we can be certain of as parents is that we're making lots of mistakes, too!

Parenting is the hardest thing I've ever done, it's the thing I've cared most about in my life doing, and it is the thing I have failed at more than anything else in my life. It's humbling.

But I wouldn't trade it for anything.

 

[mcmurtry66]

Parenting is the hardest thing I've ever done, it's the thing I've cared most about in my life doing, and it is the thing I have failed at more than anything else in my life. It's humbling.

But I wouldn't trade it for anything.

It’s like New Orleans. The best and worst thing you’ll ever experience

 

[The Original Happy Goat]

Most lawyers are fungible, dude

This is the truthiest truth ever posted on this forum.

 

[BradStevens]

This is the truthiest truth ever posted on this forum.

It’s lesson #1 in Things They Didn’t Teach Me in Law School.

 

[The Original Happy Goat]

It’s lesson #1 in Things They Didn’t Teach Me in Law School.

For me #1 was finally learning what qualifies as "placement" for placement rate.