Rotation versus Rutgers?

Discussion in 'TheHoosier.com IU Hoop Forum' started by .Gerdis, Jan 16, 2020.

  1. .Gerdis

    .Gerdis Junior
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    Watching the game last night I had my usual frustrations with some of our lineup changes. Looking at the box score I noticed that:

    our core junior starters all played big minutes: Smith with 36, Durham and Brunk I believe had 32. Smith made a few boneheaded plays, but his value to the team is clear. Brunk has become a critical component, and RU made a big run when he went to the bench in the first half.

    phin played a lot which I would expect. Green was 0-4 in only 15 minutes, and he made many bad plays in that time, so glad his minutes were limited.

    anderson and Hunter? What is the deal? Last night it seemed they both played a lot and shot a lot. They were a combined 0-7 from beyond the arc. What surprised me was Anderson took his 4 threes in only 4 minutes. That’s a lot of shots for kids that seemingly haven’t made anything since high school.

    TJD only 19 minutes. I heard he was benched? Was this strategic to play a smaller lineup?

    race Thompson with only 6 minutes. Seems odd. Rutgers is a good defensive and good rebounding team. They can’t really score, except inside. Seems like that’s Race’s game?
     
  2. Baller23Boogie

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    I think CAM got tired of seeing TJD getting outplayed by the Rutgers big man, plain and simple. I feel like he was sending a message to the young man. He didn't play the final 13 minutes i believe.

    I agree that Smith, Brunk and Phin, at this point, need to stay on the court as much as possible. Those three are our nucleus and give us the best possible chance at success.
     
  3. BusdriverE

    BusdriverE Recruit
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    TJD was benched because the coach is not happy with the way he has played lately is what I heard- seem to remember a certain coach used to do that to motivate players. JH and DA are hitting 3's in practice and by the bench players reaction when they shoot, I believe this. Also when Jerome came out one time, Archie got on him for passing up a shot and not being ready to shoot when the ball is swung to him. DM probably got the same msg
     
  4. kkott

    kkott Hall of Famer
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    Newsflash: any nucleus that doesn't include TJD, regardless if he had a bad game or 2 as a freshman, is not our nucleus. For now, or the future. I blame some of his non-production on the offense and our guards. Yes, other teams are doubling him and helping on him, which makes it all the more critical to get him the ball whenever we can. Our guards should always know where #4 is, and I just don't see them looking for him like they should. Last game he took 3 shots, this game 6... fewest of any starter. Do our players just not realize he's our best player? Phinisee should be watching TJD in his peripheral vision all the time when he has the ball, as should all our guards, and I just don't see it. Seems very little recognition of getting the ball to your teammates where they like it and can score.
     
    4 kkott, Jan 16, 2020
    Last edited: Jan 16, 2020
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  5. kkott

    kkott Hall of Famer
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    Box score says Damezi played 3 minutes and all he did was go 0-fer. Added nothing that I saw. Hunter gives effort and is long, so I can see giving him minutes. He played little, but I may have been most disappointed with Thompson of anyone, save for Green. Early on we had a bad turnover that I thought was his fault (although box shows him with 0 tos), and yet despite being near the top of the key, he loafed back and then fouled on a layup and gave them an and-1. The way he was slow to react and get back on D, I thought he'd hurt himself on the play. About all he can do is give us hustle, and yet he came in to the game not ready. I'd have sat him right then for the rest of the game.
     
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  6. .Gerdis

    .Gerdis Junior
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    didn’t see the play you were talking about as I missed some chunks of the first half. If Thompson isn’t going to be a hustle player for us, then yes, he needs to be watching from the bench.
     
  7. Baller23Boogie

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    Agree, total mishap on my part. TJD needs to be on the floor as well. Last night was just a bad night for him though. It happens. He's young and it showed, he got exposed.
     
  8. Birnk403

    Birnk403 Senior
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    TJD wasn’t himself last night, and Miller seemed to want him to watch and suffer the consequences of not being fully engaged. For IU to be anything, he has to play and play well. He didn’t do the latter last night so the former was taken away.

    As for Thompson and Anderson, neither has shown that they’re ready for prime time. Not saying they should be relegated to the scrap heap, but they need to step up or step aside. Right now, there’s not one attribute that either consistently contributes to make the team better. Going to be hard to get minutes, or even maintain the ones you’re getting, if you can’t contribute something of value.

    Miller must be totally perplexed, especially with the offense. They’re very inefficient and not difficult to play against. Not sure there’s even one thing they consistently do well on that end of the floor. This isn’t likely to get better with the grind of the season in front of them. Never thought we’d be at this spot in Year 3.
     
  9. Crossblock

    Crossblock Sophomore
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    The sequence that really summed it up for me occurred with 3 minutes left in the first half. Green had the ball knocked away from him near midcourt, and got out hustled by two Rutgers players which turned into a layup. On the next possession we made one pass to Green who apparently thought he could get it back immediately. Played with the ball for a couple of dribbles and tried a step back 3 that hit nothing but the hands of Rutgers Rebounder. Rutgers took the ball down and either hit a 3 or got a 3 point play.

    There was another play involving Green's stupidity or selfishness that led directly to more Rutgers points. So at a minimum his terrible play and decision making led directly to at least 7 Rutgers points.
     
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  10. snarlcakes

    snarlcakes Junior
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    We're starting to play teams that have big men who can defend TJD and he is struggling. He's scored fewer than 10 points in 6 games this year (1st game of the year in a blow out). The other 5 were Wisconsin, UConn, Maryland, OSU, and Rutgers. It happens to most freshmen big guys.
     
    10 snarlcakes, Jan 16, 2020
    Last edited: Jan 16, 2020
  11. Hatchets7times

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    Yep..8 guy's..
    If the others are pissed off about.Tuff ~
    Get in the transfer protocol
     
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  12. DiscoBriscoe

    DiscoBriscoe Newcomer
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    Yep. That sequence stuck out to me too. Leaned over to pick up the ball while Rutgers dove on the floor.

    We’d fought back from a rough start, 24-22 at that point, break away lay in by Young and now a mini run that closed the half down 7 instead.
     
  13. T.M.P.

    T.M.P. Hall of Famer
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    He doesn't get open and is predominantly one handed.

    You know just because he's our best and favorite player doesn't mean he's perfect, and when it comes to setting up and getting himself open he's got a long long way to go. He's still very much a weak side, grab rebounds, type of player.

    He also has no game on the right side. Can't go right, can't shoot right. He's limited as far as back to the basket post game... the guards can't change that or make him something he's not and he gets none of the blame, it's the guards fault. sigh ..

    and fwiw - he sees very little in the way of double teams.

    The only way to get him shots currently that's effective is on the roll or cut. but other teams know that and design schemes to slow it (like packing the lane) .. the problem is knocking down open shots.

    Now apply what you said above to Brunk, who early in the season was often being soft and setting up too far out but has recently been very good down there but unless we hit open shots the defense can swarm him too.

    Got to hit shots .. plain and simple.
     
    13 T.M.P., Jan 16, 2020
    Last edited: Jan 16, 2020
  14. chaboom

    chaboom Junior
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    I'm pretty sure CAM sent Damezi in and told him to just shoot it. Might as well, nobody else could hit anything
     
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  15. mushroomgod_1

    mushroomgod_1 All-Big Ten
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    We talked a little bit about it earlier, but saying Anderson took too many shots makes no sense unless you are saying he shouldn't be in there at all. I'm definitely open to that argument......but IF you're going to play him you have to let him shoot 3s....that's why he was recruited....he adds very little elsewhere.

    It wasn't like he forced any shots. They were wide open. If he can't hit them, don't play him, period.
     
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  16. kkott

    kkott Hall of Famer
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    Yes, he's limited offensively, and probably thankfully so as it is likely what might keep him here more than a year. And, I know what you say is true, but I watch our guards and they are not looking to get the ball inside. Maybe it's not the offense Archie wants to run, but there are always ways to work to get a guy the ball... simple 2 man game screen and role, on breaks, drive at his man and dish, short jumpers... somehow. We've got to get him more than 3-6 shots per game.
     
  17. T.M.P.

    T.M.P. Hall of Famer
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    Every set is a look inside ... every... but do you expect that ugh the opposing team packing the lane full of defenders is a major reason it's not happening? Maybe that's why they pack the lane? If the guards hit a shot or two, it extends the defense and gives more room in there.

    Floor balance .. we don't have it. Have to be effective in two of three areas: penetration, perimeter, paint. We're effective in one. which makes us too easy to guard. Everyone will take the inside away from us, like they have tried all year. Got to hit open shots .. burn them for doing that sh*t.
     
  18. kkott

    kkott Hall of Famer
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    I'm not saying we don't need to hit shots, that's the obvious and easy answer. I guess Archie hasn't been pushing the make jump shots button? But, when shots aren't falling, you've got to manufacture things. And no, every set is not a look inside. You can see where our guards are going, where they are looking, ... unless they're passing without looking, which does explain some things.
     
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  19. .Gerdis

    .Gerdis Junior
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    Pack it in, and a wrestling match inside. Hate the B10 officiating. Gonna be tough on the road if we can’t start hitting what the D is going to give us.
     
  20. victorbear

    victorbear All-Big Ten
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    I actually liked Hunter and Damezi shooting at least we tried something different those guys will start to make shots but team as a whole will never b a top 20 shooting team
     
  21. Crossblock

    Crossblock Sophomore
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    Maybe it's time to look down the bench to find some other options for shooting guard. I'm not talking about the Bob Knight sit all the starters and play the walk- ons at Illinois in the mid 1980's. Why not give someone who works hard in practice and shows the ability to shoot some time on the floor? Maybe that Player is limited in other areas of his game, but could play 4 or 5 minutes a half and hit a couple of shots. When you shoot 2 for 18 on threes, anything you try is better than what you are doing now.
     
  22. T.M.P.

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    No, he wants the ball to go in, every fking time. The players want the ball to go in every fking time and it's obvious.. . you act like our perimeter players are jacking shit up when the opposite is true. They are too passive .. which is one of the problems and one of the reasons teams are daring us to shoot. No confidence ..

    The passing around the perimeter is searching for angles for post feed or to restart new action directed at getting into the post through dribble drive (rare) or post feed (more common).. ie attempting to manufacture things . and break the defense from the inside but the other team is allowed to move and defend and sometimes they stop you.. by not hitting open shots we help them.

    The difference in OSU and Rutgers - in the OSU game the shot fell and that opened the lane for penetration (not post feed) in the second half. They had to play up on us, which allowed the drive. OSU took away the post feed just like Rutgers did ...and gave up the jumper, we helped them by missing.

    I like that Miller yelled at Thompson a few games back for passing one up. Got on Hunter and Anderson for the same.. They need to keep shooting and they need to put on their big boy pants and knock those shots down. They do it in practice but pucker when in games.. so it's obviously mental.

    And to clarify I'm talking about open shots not guarded ones.. no one on this team should take a guarded three.. nor should any of the guards or wings pass up open ones, but they have to quit being pussies about it and knock them down. If they don't then the inside game won't work either.
     
  23. iubud

    iubud Hall of Famer
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    Hunter and Anderson were obviously in the game to shoot the ball. It was a nice try if they do shoot well in practice. One made shot could have turned the game.

    I heard different players credit Buckley for improving shooting in the Crean era. There are good shooting coaches that could come in over the summer and work with every player. It would be worth the money.
     
  24. 5morebanners

    5morebanners Freshman
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    I’d like to see TJD or Brunk catch at 15-18 ft and just back down his man from there. They have no problem stepping out on reversals. It gets them touches and gives the d a different look.

    I noticed a handful of times during our dry spell where this was possible but most of the time they just swung the ball or handed off to a curler. Brunk did get a bucket once this way.
     
  25. kkott

    kkott Hall of Famer
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    From 15' I'd like to just see them just pop the jumper. Can't be 2-18 bad and it's a useful added skill to have vs zones (one if Cody had employed, could have helped beat Syracuse in '13)... and for the NBA.
     
  26. mushroomgod_1

    mushroomgod_1 All-Big Ten
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    Do you have access to practice to see that the usual suspects make 3s? Serious question, because I don't, and the coach of every horrible shooting team says "I don't know what's going on. They make them in practice".

    It seems to me that Knight used to keep practice stats on these types of things........to your knowledge, does CAM?

    I've been to 3-4 live games this year. What I've noticed, because I watch, is that this team as a whole does not make 3s in warm-ups. It's Brick City out there.
     
  27. jsig

    jsig Senior
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    Thanks. I appreciate your analysis when provided. I always wonder what are some of the reasons they just pass it around the perimeter. Sometimes it doesn't look like it is as simple as hitting the open shots. It actually seems more often than not they struggle to get an open look. Maybe they are passing on the open shots early in the shot clock trying to force it inside then defenses extend out a bit more as the clock winds down so it just appears that way. I'll have to look more closely in future games.

    IMO, Race and Hunter who when recruited had rumors of being able to shoot on the perimeter. They might be the keys to getting the perimeter game going. I think these 2 guys also lack college game minutes so they need to build up that confidence. You can almost feel it coming with Hunter as the rest of his game seems a lot closer to handling the speed/level of the college game compared to HS. If those 2 start hitting some 3's then it opens up the combinations you can play in the frontcourt plus take away reliance on just a couple of the guard shooting 3s while TJD, Brunk and Smith are playing. I think it clear the TJD, Smith and Brunk are not going to be 3 point shooters. Maybe one of them by next year if they work at it over the summer.

    With all the doom and gloom, if this team stays intact except for DeRon and DG who might be additions by subtractions, it could become really good by next season. I don't think the ugly games are going away this year but I don't think the team will keep shooting as bad as they have been either.
     
  28. .Gerdis

    .Gerdis Junior
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    As fans we have the scars from last season's 12 games of junk. And that leads to the doom and gloom predictions.

    I don;t see any reason that this team cannot win out in the hall. I understand that any road game is going to be tough, but I don't see a game that can't be won with the talent that we have. I do expect that as the B10 season progresses that we will see a reversion to the norm as far as road/home conference record (for the league). I don't foresee outside shooting becoming a strength for this team. However, teams will be giving us wide open shots. Best we can hope for is that Green finds a stretch like he had at the end of last year, Rob keeps getting stronger, Al provides a few open shots here and there, and that we get one guy like a Hunter to start making some shots. Hopefully shooting for this team become contagious. Right now it's a bad plague, but confidence is something that can switch on a dime. We don;t need to be elite from the arc. we just need to be respected to open up the lane.
     
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  29. kkott

    kkott Hall of Famer
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    Well, we are seeing different games. I don't see a concerted effort of our guards to get the ball inside to our post players in positions to score. When they do get it, all to often it's on the perimeter or when they are moving away from the basket where they aren't a threat. The proof is in the pudding: TJD with 3 and 6 shots the last 2 games. Yes, I agree, other teams are packing it in and he's not good at establishing position and making himself open for the pass, but I see it as also on our guards that they aren't seeing that as their priority and working to get it to him. If TJD's open and they have an entry, they might, but they aren't moving to create the angle or passing the ball with that intention. When he gets it, he's not shy about taking the shot. He's sound with the ball.

    and I disagree on that. In a normal situation, where your shooters are capable and confident that they will knock them down, yes, they should take open 3s, but as you alluded, at this point it's in their heads and some of them are lacking confidence. IMO that shot shouldn't be taken if it's early enough in the shot clock to find another. Bad results will only further damage their confidence. Shot fake and drive, or continue to run the offense, but shooting because you are a wing and are supposed to hit shots, isn't effective. The only guys I have any confidence in, and as you mentioned that's only when it's a good look, are RP, DG and AD and I don't have a lot of confidence in any of them. JS, should take it too, not because he's a good shooter, but because if he can draw his man out, he's good going to the basket. JH and DA, I would tell to take their first open look and not shoot again if they miss. They look that bad to me. Maybe the worst shooting team I recall at IU, and definitely the one I believe has the least confidence in their shot.

    I think the distance change is probably affecting our guys more than other teams. We don't have good shooters to begin with, and their entire lives they've been shooting shorter 3s. Adding a foot or more is no joke, especially if you're not a good shooter, and I speak from experience there!
     
  30. mushroomgod_1

    mushroomgod_1 All-Big Ten
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    Good discussion guys.

    As to whether the guards are really trying to feed the post...........what I think I'm seeing is Durham & Green getting into the lane and taking bad shots too early in the clock. In 6 BT games, Al is 6/22 (27%) on 2 pt attempts and Green is 9/24 (38%). The D is playing so far in that they're driving the ball into a congested area with no plan on what do when they get there. Unfortunately, neither has a good stop and pop 10-12 foot game. So...they try to make a tough pass or shoot contested drives. And Phinisee's the only capable of stopping his drive and kicking it back out to restart.

    Green is also jacking up too many early 3s, in my view. He's hitting 32% on 3s in BT play.....in previous years he never shot lower than 39& in BT play.

    As to shooting early wide open 3s........the only guys I see getting those are Hunter & Anderson...that tells you something........I kinda of agree with TMP that they have to shoot them. In fact, insist that they shoot if they're open and have their feet under them. If they miss two in a row, take them out. And repeat the following games until they don't miss two in a row. You can't let them miss 4 in a row like DA. It's up to them to develop confidence.

    Edit...Looking at Al's stats, he is getting to the FL about 6x a game, and shooting 90% there. So I think he's trying to draw fouls for the most part. Problem is, he's quick and agile enough to begin the drive, but not strong or skilled enough to finish. He's shooting 27% on 2s in the BT right now; in prior years it was 42% or so. So he's forcing things too much. He gets himself out of defensive position getting knocked to the ground so often. He's hitting 39% on 3s....
     
    30 mushroomgod_1, Jan 17, 2020
    Last edited: Jan 17, 2020
  31. 5morebanners

    5morebanners Freshman
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    The guards are trying to get the ball inside. There is plenty of sets and action designed for this and you can tell it’s emphasized in the huddles. The lack of shooting is jamming the lane and forcing bad angles and indecision.

    The timidness and indecision is from being scared to make a turnover. This team is better suited for a 35 or 45 sec shot clock. By the time we reverse the ball and dribble around a few times, the clock is down causing panic.

    They are thinking way too much and need play more freely. Everything is telegraphed and when the D extends the pressure, you can see a turnover or long 3 coming soon.

    IMO, the only way to fix this is with shooters on the floor to keep the D honest and space the floor. We have to have Brunk, TJD and Smith in the game. The guards MUST take and make shots. Fast break points would be another way, but we aren’t consistently good at that either.

    You can already see the games being called differently in league play. We won’t live at the line like we did in Nov and Dec.

    Fast break points and/or improved shooting is the answer. Also, TJD needs more touches, even if that’s catching and facing up or backing down from the perimeter. He’s our best player and he has like 10 total shot attempts in the last 3 games combined. Inexcusable!
     
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