Roster Construction 2019 - 2021
- Thread starter MikeHoncho69
- Start date
I’m sure you can work google or read through this thread and find out your answer. You could also stop being obtuse and just state what you disagree with.
That one elite game that made him the legend landed him this job. No question.
So we aren't counting the 25 games race missed. Or the 5 or so games that Rob wasn't 100% or the half season that Davis wasn't 100% or how about 3/4 of the year that romeo played with a bad hand. The point is you were comparing msu to iu. We had 4 kids I believe without looking it up in rated in the top 100 and half msu team was ranked in the top 100. And exactly who are the 8 4 or 5 star kids we have..
The consensus is toward how many of the recruiting services have a player in the top 100.
In the old days, Rivals and Scout were the most respected recruiting services. Typically, a 5 star recruit was 1 thru 25; a 4 star 26-100; 3 star 101-150.
Then - as most things that have happened with the game - money got involved. Parents of prospective-college players looking to get exposure for their kid would pay recruiting services to get optimal exposure.
As a result, all kinds of services with "experts" are out there. In exchange for the cash, they will pump up that player in their rankings. One of the "tricks" involved in that is claiming a kid is a "4 Star" and will have them as the 138th-ranked recruit. What once was considered a high 3 star can be trumpeted as a "4 star".Coaches generally will be able to sort out who is legit, but as long as people are willing to pay there will be plenty of "services" willing to take their money.
The RSCI - while not perfect, because it relies on the subjective data of ALL the recruiting services - gives the most balanced ranking by the methodology I linked earlier. If you have an RSCI-ranked player on your team, they're the real deal.
No, that what @fpeaugh would try to tell you.
To call EITHER of those guys a "4 star" is an incredible stretch. Could they end up being good? Possibly - if they had time in a system to develop. Kenny Goins wasn't rated, yet as a 5th year senior he ended up being a significant player for Michigan St.
Did notice you said "currently". Well, "currently", Archie has replaced one of those guys with Brunk - who, if you're gonna insist the rivals rankings are so legit - was higher than either of those two (4 star / 104th ranked); 4 star / ranked 107th by 247/scout, again higher than either Moore or Forrester. AND has been in college 3 years; has built his body to be what IU needs him to be - inside depth.
Will Archie end up being a great coach? Maybe, maybe not - but, again, if you can't OBJECTIVELY look at this past year I can't help you.
4 of 5 starters didn't miss a game?
Morgan and Smith were they only players to have played all games. I will even give you RL as he didn't miss until post season. But as TD mentioned, he played almost all year with an injury. And one likely starter missed the entire season. The other potential starter didn't play until the end of the year.
I missed Durham. I forgot he missed the first game of the season. Who are you referring to in your last sentence?
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I'm not being obtuse - it should be quite obvious what I disagree with. But in case you missed it, your assertion that IU's injury situation wasn't anything unusual in the world of college basketball is way off base. Proof? Look at this thread. Specifically, look at the research that Taz posted. It's all there in black and white. Even bolded for you if you don't want to have to look at everything.
Al missed a game early in the year (foot), but he had a nasty injury to his shooting hand at Michigan St. One finger was bent perpendicular to his other fingers.
He didn't miss any games, but it clearly hampered his shooting. Prior to the injury Durham had upped his 3pt % to 44.4 percent in conference games; for the rest of the year he only converted 28.3% of his attempts behind the arc (including a painful-to-watch 1-8 performance against Arkansas in the NIT).
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Bizzaro was the word @Courtsensetwo used to describe our injury situation, and I'd say it was fairly apropos.
To be clear, what Michigan St. did this year - overcoming the loss of Langford mid-season and Ahrens for the tournament - was remarkable. But they had 4 guys that started that Final Four game against Texas Tech that didn't miss a game; they had an incredible amount of experience - many 3-4 year guys.
And they had Winston, conference POY, started all 39 games. Just imagine IF he had a concussion as Phinisee did - does anyone think the Spartans finish as they did?
Izzo did a great job coaching them this year, no matter how I view him now as a human being. But it is exponentially easier to pull something like that off - getting to a Final Four by overcoming injuries - when you have an established culture and lots of veteran players. For some on here to expect the same of Archie after only two years, with the youth on our roster and DOUBLE the amount of lost player games the Spartans had, is not being realistic - especially when implementing a system as diametrically opposite from the previous regime.
That's not giving Archie a free pass. That's looking at everything involved and making an educated evaluation.
Gotcha. I never stated IU didn't sustain a lot of injuries or it wasn't unusual. I only stated MSU also had a significant/similar amount of injuries and their season didn't fall apart like Indiana's did.
Edit: I see where you got hung up. You're correct on the amount. I should have worded it differently in the initial post that you responded to. I kept thinking back to your 2nd response to me, where I stated significant. I hate the way threads are organized on here.
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To be clear, I didn't expect Archie to win the Big Ten and make a Final Four, like Izzo. I did expect Archie to win 20+ games season and make the tourney. I do disagree it was easier for Izzo to pull of what he did than it was for Archie to win 20+ games and make the tourney. MSU went to a 7 man rotation and played predominantly 5 guys in the tourney. 3 of the 5 starters were a freshmen, sophomore, and a walk-on.
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You're referring to Kenny Goins, right? You do realize he's had a scholarship since the 2015-16 season and is a 5th year senior?
I've been reading along on your discussion with @speroni and looking back at where the conversation started and noticed this comment you made:
Here are the starters for both Michigan State and Indiana in their final games of the year (Texas Tech and Wichita St, respectively), their bench players from those games and players lost to injury and not available:
Michigan State
Player / Games (39 total) / Starts / Games Missed to Injury
Cassius Winston 39 39 0
Xavier Tillman 39 14 0
Matt McQuaid 36 35 3 (ankle; missed games 7th, 8th & 9th games early in season)
Kenny Goins 39 39 0
Aaron Henry 39 22 0
Only one player started more games than those - Nick Ward (25 starts in 34 games).
Here is MSU's bench players from the Texas Tech game:
Player / Games (39 total) / Starts / Games Missed to Injury
Nick Ward 34 25 5 (late in B1G RS - hand)
Gabe Brown 32 0 0
Here are MSU players not available that last game who likely would have been major contributors:
Player / Games (39 total) / Starts / Games Missed to Injury
Joshua Langford 13 13 26 (1/2 season - foot)
Kyle Ahrens 30 8 9 (last 5 after BTT injury - ankle)
Recap:
Starters
2 Starters played and started all 39 games
2 Starters played all 39 games and started 36 of 78 games between them.
1 Starter played in 36 games and started 35 of them.
Total time lost to injury of final game starters: 3
Bench players
Out of a possible 78 games between them, they played in 66. One had 25 starts. 5 games lost to injury.
Players lost
One played 13 games with 13 starts, the other played 30 games with 8 starts.
Now, Indiana
Indiana
Player / Games (35 total) / Starts / Games Missed to Injury
Juwan Morgan 35 35 0
Justin Smith 35 32 0
Aljami Durham 34 30 1 (Foot)
Devonte Green 28 9 7 (Thigh bruise/suspension)
Rob Phinisee 32 29 3 (Concussion)
Here is Indiana's bench players from the Wichita State game:
Player / Games (35 total) / Starts / Games Missed to Injury
De'Ron Davis 30 3 5 (ankle / achilles)
Zach McRoberts 26 5 9 (back/foot)
Race Thompson 9 0 25 (Concussion / groin/virus)
Here are Indiana players not available that last game who likely would have been major contributors:
Player / Games (35 total) / Starts / Games Missed to Injury
Romeo Langford 32 32 3 (played w/ Torn Ligament after Duke)
Jerome Hunter 0 0 35 (Entire Season)
Recap:
Starters
1 Starters played and started all 35 games
1 Starter played all 35 games and started 32
1 Starter played in 34 games and started 30 of them.
1 Starter played in 32 games and started 29 of them.
1 Starter played in 28 games and started 9 of them.
Total time lost to injury of final game starters: 11
Bench players
Out of a possible 105 games between them, they played in 65. One had 5 starts, another 3. 39 games lost to injury.
Players lost
One played 32 games with 32 starts, the other never played a single game and likely would have been in top 6.
C'mon, Snarl. I mean, I'll give credit to Michigan St for what they overcame. But look at how many experienced guys they had, look at the RSCI rankings on all of their players compared to IU.
And lets not forget when we were going thru that 12 of 13 streak how little DeRon played during the 1st part of that, or that Phin was still suffering from the effects of his concussion. Think Michigan State wins the Big 10 if Winston had the same injury Phin had?
No way you can compare the injury situations between the two teams, let alone the rosters - in talent or experience.
cant wait to see what the apologists excuses will be next year. we had injuries, sure, but we also watched a poorly coached bball team. I really don't get how people cant see that, but most on here on fn morons. (let the oh so clever remarks begin you fn dorks)
MSU had a better roster. I never stated they didn't. I see you conveniently switched our final roster to the NIT games. Not to be rude, but I don't give a rat's as# about who started the NIT games (the season was a disaster at that point) and your being disingenuous trying to play up Romeo's injury. He started all the regular season games, played the most minutes, and was 2nd team all conference during the regular season. Also, my criticism of Archie has nothing to do with what happened in the NIT. I should have made this my disclaimer in my first post. My apologizes for not doing that.
The last game against OSU starters:
Indiana
Player / Games (35 total) / Starts / Games Missed to Injury
Juwan Morgan 35 35 0
Justin Smith 35 32 0
Aljami Durham 34 30 1 (Foot)
Romeo Langford 32 32 0 (at the time)
Rob Phinisee 32 29 3 (Concussion)
The Bench
Devonte Green 28 9 7 (Thigh bruise/suspension)
De'Ron Davis 30 3 5 (ankle / achilles)
Zach McRoberts 26 5 9 (back/foot)
Evan Fitzner 31 (not sure on his injuries)
Race Thompson 9 0 25 (Concussion / groin/virus)
Over a third of our injuries came from our 9th and 10th best players. They played a combined 6 minutes in the OSU game and would not have been in the rotation if we were healthy (assuming Hunter was good enough to take away McRoberts minutes).
I agree Indiana had more injuries. However, who is injured matters more. MSU had fewer injuries, but they were to better and more significant players. For example, there is a big difference between IU losing Phin and MSU losing Winston. Winston was the player of the year in the league. Phin shot 36% from the field, averaged 7 pts a game, and sat on the bench the last 10 minutes of the most important game of the year. There is no comparison between the two players. Losing Winston is much more significant lost (even if it was for fewer games, hypothetically speaking). Lastly, we're not going to agree that Indiana and MSU injury situations weren't comparable.
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Look back at this article:
"Indiana is 11-4 with a fully healthy Rob Phinisee, and 4-10 without him. They are 4-2 in the Big Ten with him, 2-10 without him."
This article was from March 6th - before the last two games of the regular season. If you add in the results after this article? Then Indiana is 15-6 with a fully healthy Rob Phinisee. Our defense was entirely different with him on the floor.
Also to note: Nick Ward played five games with lingering issues in his hand. But Ward was a complementary player - not Winston. Romeo played 25 games with a torn ligament in his shooting hand. TWENTY FIVE games!
So during that 12 of 13 stench your best player is playing with a bum shooting hand, your best PG is out/suffering from the effects of a concussion and a key inside player (DeRon) plays all of 10 minutes in the first 7 games of that stretch. Two of those guys are FRESHMEN.
You can compare THAT to Michigan State?
I read the article the first time it was posted here. It's an Indiana beat writer playing kiss a#$ so they can maintain access with the basketball team. He arbitrarily picks when IU started winning and concludes that's when Phin was "completely healthy". It was revisionist history.
I posted a couple of weeks ago how bad Phin was at the end of the regular season when he was "completely healthy". He was up and down all year. He had games where he looked great and games where he was awful, which is the norm for most freshmen.
Also, we disagree on how good Ward was. I consider players like De'ron Davis, Phin, and Smith as complementary players.
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Did you miss this part of the article - the most important point it made?
"While the offensive production is important, what really makes this unheralded recruit so important to this team? Defense.
If you understand the pack-line scheme that Miller uses, then you realize there is no more critical player than the head-of-the-monster, or the guy defending the ball."
Look back at that 12 of 13 - we had games at Maryland, Northwestern and Rutgers that we had good starts but couldn't finish. Do you really think it's out of the question that having your best on-ball defender we win at least ONE of those games? 1 more win and we would have made the NCAA, even with everything that went wrong. Do you really think had Phinisee not had the concussion we would have gone thru the 13 game stretch and win only 1 game? There were 7 games during that stretch we were close in but never got over the hump - win 1/2 of them and we're in the tournament.
Best on-ball defender - injured with a concussion
Best player - played 25 games with a torn tendon.
Both are FRESHMEN.
Michigan State had the conference POY who started all 39 game and is a junior at PG. Their SG missed 3 games early in the season and is a senior.
How ANYONE could compare our roster to theirs and try in any way to say the situations are "similar" is beyond all logic. Two veteran top 100 RSCI guys vs two freshmen who only 1 made the RSCI - and played with a bad hand the majority of the year. And the players around them - in terms of talent, experience and health - were nowhere near the same.
I never stated we had "similar" rosters. I posted several times that MSU had a better roster. The situations are comparable after you adjust for expectations (I'm sure you disagree with them). I expected IU to be a top 25 team and a 5 or 6 seed. After injuries we won 17 games and missed the tourney. I expected MSU to win the Big Ten and be a top 5-10 team. They didn't miss a beat after their injuries. If you would have told me before the season MSU would suffer all the injuries they did, I would have expected them to lose several more games, Instead they won the Big Ten tourney and made the Final Four. The reason for that is because one team was coached by a Izzo and the other team was coached by Archie, in my opinion.
Phin, wasn't anywhere near the defender your making him out to be. Also, his offensive production was terrible, especially towards the end of the year. Green was just as good as a defender as Phin.
IU should have won 3 or 4 more games. We're not going to agree on this.
I really didn't think so either, but a lot of other people here seem to... then again, a lot of other people here are ignorant too, so there is that.
I guess we will never really know because, he was injured at pretty much the beginning of the year.
I was referring to RT. I don't really think he would have been a starter, but a lot of others did, so I included him as potential.
Either way, I do believe he would have been counted on for major minutes.
I find the link between your opinions and how you present them and your confrontational and insulting postings to be very interesting
Very well.
Thanks for at least keeping it civil. We'll find out what we really have as a coach this coming season.
Or the steady tourney appearances. Or the fact he was under 40, had a good amount of HC experience, and success at a small school. But shame on an AD to hire and up and coming guy ...
The fact you’re saying he got hired bc of one game. Ha. Keep the comedy coming man.
This might be the case if we are comparing Phinisee and Winston in isolation. However, injuries to everyone matter, especially when you can’t run the practice you need. Especially when the development of bench players is stalled.
Having said that, this happened in the first part of the season when they were winning. I haven’t a clue what caused the losing streak.
They had a bunch of injuries just like every school has.YDS
Give you plenty of facts - yet you want to ignore them.
Izzo has been there almost 25 years, has an established culture, had numerous veterans . . . yet your dumb ass thinks we’re comparable.
How many times this past year did MSU barely have enough healthy guys for practice? Just how do you think guys get better - by just playing in games? Then again, you don’t think concussions are a big deal, either . , .
And I never said we’re MSU. Obviously we don’t have a good coach like they do.
Get a clue.
Race didn’t even play when he was healthy. That’s a non factor.
We went 2-1 the games Rob missed. Davis only missed a handful of games.
You guys act like we lost Romeo and Morgan for the year.
You’re the one who can’t look at things objectively. No one is saying we should have made the Final Four. But to miss the tournament is absolutely inexcusable.
And the reality is our recruiting has become a dumpster fire. I wish Brunk all the best but he couldn’t even start at Butler. He’s not a difference maker.
We lost them for next year...and a bunch of other guys too...
We’ve replaced them w TJD, a local 3star, and a low stats/minutes big guy from Butlers conference.
Should be fun!
Cant wait for my season tix seat selection.
I said this:
You answered:
Physician, heal thyself
