"Reframed Classics": Alternative to Cancel Culture?

[Bulk VanderHuge]

Link?

The posts were deleted, as were the responses to them.

 

[Jg48]

Do you think the test really is whether “certain images or words might be offensive”? If so we aren’t in the same ball park. Does the message promote or perpetuate racism is the test I’m applying. Can the latter be fixed with a disclaimer? The former doesn’t need a disclaimer in my view.

I think the question is who do you trust to decide for you what is or is not offensive? Whenever you hand the right to make decisions about anything that effects you to a third party, you take a risk and limit your own freedom.
You have no idea of their personal background, intelligence, or most importantly, their motivation. Personally, I would rather take the risk of seeing something I might find offensive then have someone else impose their opinion on me. Stating that a movie has sex or violence in it is one thing. However, stating opinions about social issues is another. We are gong down a slippery slope. I will always favor people making up their own minds and reaching their own conclusions.

 

[CO. Hoosier]

It all matters. A couple of years ago I heard George Takei speak. Takei told the story of meeting an Asian-American actor, I can't remember who, who told Takei that Sulu was the first Asian character he had seen that made him feel proud to be an Asian. A similar story exists with Nichelle Nichols who wanted to quit Star Trek but was talked out of it by Martin Luther King. King told her she was there, on the bridge of space vessel being seen by Blacks all over the country. She had to stay as a role model for all those people.

So yes, names and statues DO matter. Black kids going to Robert E Lee High School, the Fighting Rebels, may not feel quite as comfortable as you or I might.

Of course education matters, we all agree 100% on that. Having watched the schools it has been obvious to me that the number one factor in how well kids do in school is how much their parents are involved. I attended a ton of school functions over the years. I do not believe it is a coincidence that in school open houses the honors classes were packed, almost every parent was there. In the standard classes, there were honors parents and a very small sprinkling of non-honors parents. I am not sure I've heard great stories on getting parents to value education so the kids have a better chance.

Turning every southern general into a hero sends a message. You may not see the message, I think that is on you. the best example is Fort Bragg, look up Braxton Bragg. He was a godawful general, being as bad as he was he may have done more to help the union win than anyone. But in our haste to make sure every southern general was immortalized, we named a major fort after a horrible general who fought for rebels. And now people defend that name as if it was decreed by Jesus.

It is an awful tricky line to walk to tell Black children they are equal, they matter, we want them to succeed while at the same time we make sure people who fought for the enslavement of their ancestors are revered.

There’s a lot to respond to, but I’ll just mention Fort Bragg. I don’t know Bragg from a sack of potatoes. What is the point of doing a deep dive into his history to figure out if I should be offended?

We recently changed the name of our neighborhood because its namesake was a Denver Mayor associated with the Klan. For most of us it was the name of the old airport that was redeveloped. So why do a deep dive to establish a reason to be offended?

Pikes Peak is named after the old explorer. He likely was part of the reason Indians were mistreated. Should we care about Pikes Peak enough to change the name?

 

[Bulk VanderHuge]

Accuro?

Actually, it was Abraxis.

 

[Marvin the Martian]

There’s a lot to respond to, but I’ll just mention Fort Bragg. I don’t know Bragg from a sack of potatoes. What is the point of doing a deep dive into his history to figure out if I should be offended?

We recently changed the name of our neighborhood because its namesake was a Denver Mayor associated with the Klan. For most of us it was the name of the old airport that was redeveloped. So why do a deep dive to establish a reason to be offended?

Pikes Peak is named after the old explorer. He likely was part of the reason Indians were mistreated. Should we care about Pikes Peak enough to change the name?

I guarantee you that many people that agree with you above would be greatly offended if a statue in the US went up to a Japanese pilot from Pearl even if one had to do a deep dive to find out who they were.

 

[mcmurtry66]

There’s a lot to respond to, but I’ll just mention Fort Bragg. I don’t know Bragg from a sack of potatoes. What is the point of doing a deep dive into his history to figure out if I should be offended?

We recently changed the name of our neighborhood because its namesake was a Denver Mayor associated with the Klan. For most of us it was the name of the old airport that was redeveloped. So why do a deep dive to establish a reason to be offended?

Pikes Peak is named after the old explorer. He likely was part of the reason Indians were mistreated. Should we care about Pikes Peak enough to change the name?

I think it is somewhat of a case-by-case deal. I think of removing the statue of john calhoun in marion square in charleston. pretty big deal. that was a former vp etc. but the way it stood so tall over the city that i understood that to some it would be an insult and a constant reminder of a city divided. so if it brings some semblance of unity to one group without hurting another then F it. remove the thing. let these totems be historical in museums; they don't need to be perched atop a city like a trophy.

 

[anon_mlxxvlbug9dpa]

It all matters. A couple of years ago I heard George Takei speak. Takei told the story of meeting an Asian-American actor, I can't remember who, who told Takei that Sulu was the first Asian character he had seen that made him feel proud to be an Asian. A similar story exists with Nichelle Nichols who wanted to quit Star Trek but was talked out of it by Martin Luther King. King told her she was there, on the bridge of space vessel being seen by Blacks all over the country. She had to stay as a role model for all those people.

So yes, names and statues DO matter. Black kids going to Robert E Lee High School, the Fighting Rebels, may not feel quite as comfortable as you or I might.

Of course education matters, we all agree 100% on that. Having watched the schools it has been obvious to me that the number one factor in how well kids do in school is how much their parents are involved. I attended a ton of school functions over the years. I do not believe it is a coincidence that in school open houses the honors classes were packed, almost every parent was there. In the standard classes, there were honors parents and a very small sprinkling of non-honors parents. I am not sure I've heard great stories on getting parents to value education so the kids have a better chance.

Turning every southern general into a hero sends a message. You may not see the message, I think that is on you. the best example is Fort Bragg, look up Braxton Bragg. He was a godawful general, being as bad as he was he may have done more to help the union win than anyone. But in our haste to make sure every southern general was immortalized, we named a major fort after a horrible general who fought for rebels. And now people defend that name as if it was decreed by Jesus.

It is an awful tricky line to walk to tell Black children they are equal, they matter, we want them to succeed while at the same time we make sure people who fought for the enslavement of their ancestors are revered.

I’d be all on board renaming Ft. Bragg to Ft. Powell or Ft. Davis. Bragg is arguably the most important installation in the force and it’s horribly named.

 

[anon_mlxxvlbug9dpa]

I guarantee you that many people that agree with you above would be greatly offended if a statue in the US went up to a Japanese pilot from Pearl even if one had to do a deep dive to find out who they were.

Hyperbole isn’t an argument

 

[CO. Hoosier]

I guarantee you that many people that agree with you above would be greatly offended if a statue in the US went up to a Japanese pilot from Pearl even if one had to do a deep dive to find out who they were.

Context matters. Should a Brit be offended by seeing a statue of George Washington?

A commentator once said that if we could somehow prohibit people from using history more than 20 years old to guide present actions, the world would be more peaceful. Much conflict is based upon wrongs committed hundreds of years ago. We didn’t used to be that way here. MLK looked forward, not backward. That’s changed. Victimhood has become a perpetual legacy to be handed down from generation to generation.

 

[larsIU]

There’s a lot to respond to, but I’ll just mention Fort Bragg. I don’t know Bragg from a sack of potatoes. What is the point of doing a deep dive into his history to figure out if I should be offended?

We recently changed the name of our neighborhood because its namesake was a Denver Mayor associated with the Klan. For most of us it was the name of the old airport that was redeveloped. So why do a deep dive to establish a reason to be offended?

Pikes Peak is named after the old explorer. He likely was part of the reason Indians were mistreated. Should we care about Pikes Peak enough to change the name?

The renaming debate is one with a number of perils. How do we consider someone's actions who lived 200 years ago in an entirely different cultural/societal landscape? What about 100 years ago? How do we parse out when someone "should have known better". Tough questions. However, with Bragg and others Confederate generals, they were traitors. Case closed. I mean, did we name any bases after Loyalist Revolutionary war generals after we kicked England's ass? They were born in America, so why not?

 

[iuwclurker]

We agree. Scripting villains as white male Nazis is safe. Nobody will organize a boycott and no reviewer will review with self-righteous indignation.

Would a black female Nazi be racist? Sexist?

 

[iuwclurker]

I don’t need a walk. I post here instead. Getting you to rise to my fly is satisfying enough.

Fly fishing is the only fishing.

 

[Bulk VanderHuge]

one of my favorite posts on the board. it's important to remember that many slaves were a certain personality type in search of an adventure!

Bingo

 

[CO. Hoosier]

The renaming debate is one with a number of perils. How do we consider someone's actions who lived 200 years ago in an entirely different cultural/societal landscape? What about 100 years ago? How do we parse out when someone "should have known better". Tough questions. However, with Bragg and others Confederate generals, they were traitors. Case closed. I mean, did we name any bases after Loyalist Revolutionary war generals after we kicked England's ass? They were born in America, so why not?

Traitors—case closed doesn’t cut it go me. Lincoln, Grant, and Johnson issued pardons and granted amnesty at the end of the war in order to encourage peace and re-unification. Going back to the traitor argument is against peace an reunification.

 

[larsIU]

Traitors—case closed doesn’t cut it go me. Lincoln, Grant, and Johnson issued pardons and granted amnesty at the end of the war in order to encourage peace and re-unification. Going back to the traitor argument is against peace an reunification.

I'm fine with the pardons, but it doesn't change the nature of the decision they made to fight on a side against the United States. But naming military bases/schools after them? Why? Hell, Nixon barely has anything named after him and he didn't commit treason.

 

[CO. Hoosier]

Would a black female Nazi be racist? Sexist?

Obviously some names, symbols, and statues matter. But I think too many are making too much of that. In the Selma March the civil rights advocates carried many American Flags. Now many activists see the American Flags as divisive and oppressive. We are going way overboard with our obsessions.

 

[iuwclurker]

Well, I won’t call you ignorant. You calling me that tells me a lot about you.

Viewing posts through others’ lenses also tells you what you need not respond to — everyone knows insults are juvenile.

 

[Marvin the Martian]

Hyperbole isn’t an argument

White males have been the dominate group in North America for a long time. It is not going to be easy to come up with someone who enslaved white males.

CO was offended by the term tea-bagger. I doubt he, or most older people who heard the term knew what it meant. It isn't a term we used in our youth. How is that?

 

[mcmurtry66]

White males have been the dominate group in North America for a long time. It is not going to be easy to come up with someone who enslaved white males.

CO was offended by the term tea-bagger. I doubt he, or most older people who heard the term knew what it meant. It isn't a term we used in our youth. How is that?

#TimesUp. Now they got les miles. Our time is over.

 

[CO. Hoosier]

White males have been the dominate group in North America for a long time. It is not going to be easy to come up with someone who enslaved white males.

CO was offended by the term tea-bagger. I doubt he, or most older people who heard the term knew what it meant. It isn't a term we used in our youth. How is that?

No I wasn’t. criticizing it is a long way from being offended.By it.

 

[CO. Hoosier]

#TimesUp. Now they got les miles. Our time is over.

“our time”!is not dependent on being white or male. From what we see in the snowflake/woke mentality, our time is getting stronger.

 

[Marvin the Martian]

No I wasn’t. criticizing it is a long way from being offended.By it.

And you knew immediately what it meant because you are known to be hip and cool with today's urban slang.

 

[JamieDimonsBalls]

The renaming debate is one with a number of perils. How do we consider someone's actions who lived 200 years ago in an entirely different cultural/societal landscape? What about 100 years ago? How do we parse out when someone "should have known better". Tough questions. However, with Bragg and others Confederate generals, they were traitors. Case closed. I mean, did we name any bases after Loyalist Revolutionary war generals after we kicked England's ass? They were born in America, so why not?

I can get behind that argument!

 

[JamieDimonsBalls]

White males have been the dominate group in North America for a long time. It is not going to be easy to come up with someone who enslaved white males.

CO was offended by the term tea-bagger. I doubt he, or most older people who heard the term knew what it meant. It isn't a term we used in our youth. How is that?

I don't even understand the argument. Why would a Japanese pilot's statue go up at PH? Maybe I'm missing something, but it doesn't make sense.

 

[mcmurtry66]

“our time”!is not dependent on being white or male. From what we see in the snowflake/woke mentality, our time is getting ustronger.

Depends on the issue. Flirting with young stokers is now deemed harassing. #timesup. No point even going to an office. There’s a whole subset of paralegals mad as hornets that our #timesup

 

[Hank Reardon]

I dunno. In many ways the disclaimer offends me more than the portrayal of slavery in GWTW. The disclaimer insults my intelligence. The disclaimer is condescending. It is arrogant. I see a sniveling broadcaster trying to satisfy a narrative while hiding under their desk. Either slow the movie or don’t show it. Don’t apologize either way or weaken your good faith informed decisions. All the disclaimer tells me is that we have one more industry yielding to the rot that is creeping into everything we do.

Back to the film question. Have you ever watched a film on TCM? It's fairly common for the host to discuss the film before showing it anyway. Maybe they talk about the director, or an actor, or some other aspect of the film. What I envision with this is simply taking that discussion to the historical elements that may be controversial today. Is that really so terrible?

 

[Marvin the Martian]

I don't even understand the argument. Why would a Japanese pilot's statue go up at PH? Maybe I'm missing something, but it doesn't make sense.

I don't know, I am trying to come up with ideas that White conservatives would be upset by. A heavily Japanese-American city builds one? Dearborn MI is heavily Islamic, suppose they built a memorial to some American who went to fight for extremists.

Can anyone name statues to Native Americans who fought against the US on government lands built with government money? I suspect if that Crazy Horse Monument had been built by a government many conservatives would have been upset.

 

[anon_mlxxvlbug9dpa]

I don't know, I am trying to come up with ideas that White conservatives would be upset by. A heavily Japanese-American city builds one? Dearborn MI is heavily Islamic, suppose they built a memorial to some American who went to fight for extremists.

Can anyone name statues to Native Americans who fought against the US on government lands built with government money? I suspect if that Crazy Horse Monument had been built by a government many conservatives would have been upset.

You’re really struggling on this one, Marv and I think you’re missing CO’s point. It was never “ok” or acceptable historically to attack a peacetime navy base on a Sunday nor was it ever ok to attack Americans in the name of Islamic jihad. You’re taking a modern view of historical awfulness that was not universally thought of at the time of being awful.

Look - I don’t care - to be honest I don’t care if there’s a disclaimer or whatever or not. It’s just another front in the Woke’s War. In my viewpoint, said war affects me very little. I’m a good human - I treat everybody with respect until they choose a path no longer warranting respect.

The real issue with the Woke War is not their mission - naively noble as it may be - it’s the damage they are inadvertently causing. They are radicalizing the fringes of the spectrum and causing immense problems. Problems that lead to division and incivility. Problems that lead to violence. Luckily it’s been isolated to controllable incidents but I believe eventually it’ll grow - and the Woke and the gullible on both sides share equal blame.

 

[JamieDimonsBalls]

I don't know, I am trying to come up with ideas that White conservatives would be upset by. A heavily Japanese-American city builds one? Dearborn MI is heavily Islamic, suppose they built a memorial to some American who went to fight for extremists.

Can anyone name statues to Native Americans who fought against the US on government lands built with government money? I suspect if that Crazy Horse Monument had been built by a government many conservatives would have been upset.

It seems like you are finding it more difficult than perhaps you expected. A better example than your extremist example would probably be erecting a Farrakahn statue in Detroit/Dearborn, but it wouldn't just be white conservatives that would be upset by this.

I think the point is, white conservatives wouldn't be any more offended/appalled at the idea of a Japanese fighter pilot going up as native Hawaiians and Pacific Islanders.

Give me some Tecumseh in downtown Indy!

 

[Marvin the Martian]

It seems like you are finding it more difficult than perhaps you expected. A better example than your extremist example would probably be erecting a Farrakahn statue in Detroit/Dearborn, but it wouldn't just be white conservatives that would be upset by this.

I think the point is, white conservatives wouldn't be any more offended/appalled at the idea of a Japanese fighter pilot going up as native Hawaiians and Pacific Islanders.

Give me some Tecumseh in downtown Indy!

How about a large Malcolm X statue?

It is hard because we Whites have never been enslaved in this country. We haven't particularly been persecuted except by other Whites. So we don't know what it is to drive by statues of our prosecutors on public lands funded by tax dollars every single day. So we sit comfortably sure people who find that offensive are at fault.

 

[anon_mlxxvlbug9dpa]

How about a large Malcolm X statue?

It is hard because we Whites have never been enslaved in this country. We haven't particularly been persecuted except by other Whites. So we don't know what it is to drive by statues of our prosecutors on public lands funded by tax dollars every single day. So we sit comfortably sure people who find that offensive are at fault.

It’s a fair point but you also sit ready and willing to believe small groups of people to be Offended! when the majority of people who identify as the same race or creed as those people couldn’t give a rat’s ass and aren’t offended. Offense has become a business unto itself.

 

[Marvin the Martian]

It’s a fair point but you also sit ready and willing to believe small groups of people to be Offended! when the majority of people who identify as the same race or creed as those people couldn’t give a rat’s ass and aren’t offended. Offense has become a business unto itself.

Offense is a tremendous weapon. Do you really think people are horribly offended by relatively unpopular Dr. Seuess books being pulled?

 

[anon_mlxxvlbug9dpa]

Offense is a tremendous weapon. Do you really think people are horribly offended by relatively unpopular Dr. Seuess books being pulled?

Ah but that’s in reaction to Offense!

The irony isn’t lost on me, my virtual friend, but reflexive offense isn’t the same as Offense! The Musical. The Seussers aren’t offended by book removal - they’re mad at the Woke skirmish.

let’s try this angle (permit my ramblings):

When I returned from my first tour in Iraq I was presented with a questionnaire the very next day from the medical guys in charge of repatriating us.

There were questions such as “did you fire your weapon at the enemy” or “did you engage in direct combat” that nearly every infantryman would tick as Yes.

Eventually after turning in my questionnaire some of us were pulled into a room with senior medical officers who told us that we all had or were going to have PTSD.

They encouraged us to make mental health appointments to discuss (a fair proposition) and - and get this - to apply for PTSD disability with the military (not ****ing okay).

At that point i told the colonel (medical desk jockey) with my eyes that I was done with this and got up and left. Well that didn’t go over too well and I got called out on the carpet and got chewed by my CoC. Fine.

Over the course of the year we were bombarded with reminders of PTSD by the medical groups. Eventually the damndest phenomenon happened.

The guys in my unit that were furthest from the action started to go to mental health and claim PTSD. Some of these guys were away from the action due to the nature of their jobs (armorer, supply, etc) and some were away from the action because we knew they couldn’t be trusted in a fight. Yet these were the guys (as well as some real trigger pullers) who started to go to behavioral health and starting seeking treatment (and benefits). And this was an infantry unit - one highly likely to be in action. The issue compounds when you got into support units - people stepping forward with PTSD left and right - all without ever having been shot at. Sebastian Junger has a good piece about this too.

Where I’m going with this is as follows: if one is constantly told how they should be feeling or how they should perceive reality, we have found that one is likely to adopt that mindset. Whether that perceived reality is true means nothing - it becomes reality to the person. Telling someone over and over and over again that they should be offended by something harmless is not doing that person a favor. It’s gaslighting.

When everyone is told they have PTSD, the real victims are twofold:

• those that have PTSD and can’t get resources for help
• those that don’t have PTSD that now are convinced they do have it are unable to function or move on to live their lives because they think they’re damaged

I have no experience being an oppressed person. But neither do most people who claim to be oppressed in a country that affords more opportunity than any other in the world.

 

[Marvin the Martian]

Ah but that’s in reaction to Offense!

The irony isn’t lost on me, my virtual friend, but reflexive offense isn’t the same as Offense! The Musical. The Seussers aren’t offended by book removal - they’re mad at the Woke skirmish.

let’s try this angle (permit my ramblings):

When I returned from my first tour in Iraq I was presented with a questionnaire the very next day from the medical guys in charge of repatriating us.

There were questions such as “did you fire your weapon at the enemy” or “did you engage in direct combat” that nearly every infantryman would tick as Yes.

Eventually after turning in my questionnaire some of us were pulled into a room with senior medical officers who told us that we all had or were going to have PTSD.

They encouraged us to make mental health appointments to discuss (a fair proposition) and - and get this - to apply for PTSD disability with the military (not ****ing okay).

At that point i told the colonel (medical desk jockey) with my eyes that I was done with this and got up and left. Well that didn’t go over too well and I got called out on the carpet and got chewed by my CoC. Fine.

Over the course of the year we were bombarded with reminders of PTSD by the medical groups. Eventually the damndest phenomenon happened.

The guys in my unit that were furthest from the action started to go to mental health and claim PTSD. Some of these guys were away from the action due to the nature of their jobs (armorer, supply, etc) and some were away from the action because we knew they couldn’t be trusted in a fight. Yet these were the guys (as well as some real trigger pullers) who started to go to behavioral health and starting seeking treatment (and benefits). And this was an infantry unit - one highly likely to be in action. The issue compounds when you got into support units - people stepping forward with PTSD left and right - all without ever having been shot at. Sebastian Junger has a good piece about this too.

Where I’m going with this is as follows: if one is constantly told how they should be feeling or how they should perceive reality, we have found that one is likely to adopt that mindset. Whether that perceived reality is true means nothing - it becomes reality to the person. Telling someone over and over and over again that they should be offended by something harmless is not doing that person a favor. It’s gaslighting.

When everyone is told they have PTSD, the real victims are twofold:

• those that have PTSD and can’t get resources for help
• those that don’t have PTSD that now are convinced they do have it are unable to function or move on to live their lives because they think they’re damaged

I have no experience being an oppressed person. But neither do most people who claim to be oppressed in a country that affords more opportunity than any other in the world.

I don't see anything wrong with your analogy. But I would argue there are some no-brainers. Building statues or naming forts after Rebs is pretty easy and doesn't hurt a single person. Removing a book of Blacks with ape-like features carrying a litter like item over their head like one might see in an old movie of a chieftain being carried on is pretty easy stuff.

The chief argument against them seems to be "that's how it has been", I am skeptical that is ever a very good reason.

But yes, I am sure there are slights too small to be worried with, we cannot erase all of history. Those we should deal with differently.

And I think I finally found my comparison, many conservatives were offended about this public exhibit, https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.la...-xpm-1995-01-31-mn-26477-story.html?_amp=true

 

[NPT]

I dunno. In many ways the disclaimer offends me more than the portrayal of slavery in GWTW. The disclaimer insults my intelligence.

Don't worry ... sometime in the future there will be a disclaimer of the disclaimer because someone (group) will think they are smarter and know better.

 

[larsIU]

Messi will be out today. No Messi no Ronaldo past round of 16. Imo this marks the end of the greatest cycle. Makes me very sad. It’s been an amazing 15 years

I never even hit a ball like that on accident

 

[outside shooter]

Watching 42 seconds of soccer and seeing a goal scored is weird. It usually takes about 80 minutes.

 

[mcmurtry66]

View embedded media

I never even hit a ball like that on accident

Ridiculous. In a few years he should tell inter Miami he’ll play for them but only home games. Hard to imagine him sitting in the Charlotte airport waiting for his American Airlines connecting flight to KC. And one practice per week - weather permitting.

 

[larsIU]

Ridiculous. In a few years he should tell inter Miami he’ll play for them but only home games. Hard to imagine him sitting in the Charlotte airport waiting for his American Airlines connecting flight to KC. And one practice per week - weather permitting.

I'd pay to watch in an indoor rec league with a beer gut in ten years just making schlubs look stupid. There some shit on youtube of Zidane just killing people in some over 30 futsal league. Hilarious.

 

[mcmurtry66]

I'd pay to watch in an indoor rec league with a beer gut in ten years just making schlubs look stupid. There some shit on youtube of Zidane just killing people in some over 30 futsal league. Hilarious.

Lmao. Yeah my friends and I have long joked about the same and what he’d be like in flats. Cannot imagine