Recruiting vs. Coaching

Bob Sienicki

Recruit
Aug 2, 2004
27
63
13
(Sorry for the length in advance. If you don't want to take the time, fine. No skin off my back. Or sue me. I don't care. I've been on these and other boards since the old Star forums, so I've already heard all the clever witticisms and put downs. So knock yourselves out. But what I have to say here is valid, like it or not.)

For quite awhile, as a sympathetic Purdue fan who genuinely appreciates IU basketball, I have lurked and observed what appears to be very repetitive and predictable behavior on here.

When your coach du jour is in the process of flaming out, you want to get a coach who will recruit the necessary elite players to take your program back to prominence. Okay, fine. <yawn>

Then, when you get your coach, and he gets a good recruiting class or two, but still loses, then the refrain around here is that he cannot coach or develop those players. And when opponents come over here to talk their trash, you insist you still have better players. Okay, then it is the coach, right?

So you all dive headlong into the Next Great Coaching search, insisting that he bring in even better players. And the cycle begins again.

See what's going on here?

Look, while Matt Painter appeared to struggle with landing anywhere near the top ranked players IU was getting, he was building good, solid teams that won - not with bad talent, but with carefully chosen talent that fit the roles Painter needed for his offensive and defensive schemes. And he made them work - hard. Even kicked a few to the curb.

So, despite occasional setbacks as his teams went from old and experienced to young and mistake-prone, Painter kept on course, and kept on winning. Not Final Four level winning, but Sweet Sixteen level winning. And over time, with some dumb luck, a near miss at a Final Four, and some hard earned and honest work, he has started winning more recruiting battles. Not just for random kids with lots of stars strung out next to their names, but kids he knows who fit his system, regardless of their rankings. And now, after winning almost 2/3 of his games, he is at the cusp of producing Final Four quality teams - the right way. He may not get there, but he's a tad closer to that threshold than where IU is at the moment.

But it didn't happen overnight. And it won't for IU.

Look, IU needs to get back into prominence. The B1G is not the same without IU in the hunt. It just isn't.

But IU needs to stop fretting over recruiting stars and numbers, and focus on getting a good young coach who will set up his system and his philosophy and recruit the kinds of kids who will run that system to perfection. And maybe for a few years, there will be ups and downs, and some disappointing recruiting losses.

But if the coach is good, and he holds his ground and establishes his brand, the players will slowly come. It won't matter if he runs RMK's old motion offense, or Denny Crum's run and gun, just that the coach needs to have a clear identity, a brand of basketball he can sell to recruits, not just empty promises of returning the program to glory, whatever the hell that means.

Instead of the endless debate ad nauseam of what coach has the biggest name to draw the best recruits, maybe you all should debate what style of play you want, and what promising young coach has that brand, and is committed to that brand and finding the pieces that make it work.

If Matt Painter can take marginal recruits and build a brand and a program that is now at the doorstep of elite status, surely with patience, trust, and commitment, IU can find that young coach who will not just return IU to prominence, but will build a new legacy for the ages. But it's not going to happen with just finding another name coach who will bring in the "top recruits." You've been down that road enough times, don't you think?

What do they call it when you keep doing the same thing over and over again, and expecting different results?

Figure out what you want IU basketball to be, then find that hard-working, under-appreciated, never quitter who will give you what you want and just needs a break. Make him yours, and support him through thick and thin. And someday, not as far away as you think, your program will be back, and even greater than before.

Or not. Your choice.
 

SIhoosier26

Senior
Gold Member
Sep 9, 2017
2,988
4,213
113
Figure out what you want IU basketball to be, then find that hard-working, under-appreciated, never quitter who will give you what you want and just needs a break. Make him yours, and support him through thick and thin. And someday, not as far away as you think, your program will be back, and even greater than before.

Or not. Your choice.
Shut up Bob
 

limestonecowboy

Sophomore
Jul 2, 2018
760
681
93
(Sorry for the length in advance. If you don't want to take the time, fine. No skin off my back. Or sue me. I don't care. I've been on these and other boards since the old Star forums, so I've already heard all the clever witticisms and put downs. So knock yourselves out. But what I have to say here is valid, like it or not.)

For quite awhile, as a sympathetic Purdue fan who genuinely appreciates IU basketball, I have lurked and observed what appears to be very repetitive and predictable behavior on here.

When your coach du jour is in the process of flaming out, you want to get a coach who will recruit the necessary elite players to take your program back to prominence. Okay, fine. <yawn>

Then, when you get your coach, and he gets a good recruiting class or two, but still loses, then the refrain around here is that he cannot coach or develop those players. And when opponents come over here to talk their trash, you insist you still have better players. Okay, then it is the coach, right?

So you all dive headlong into the Next Great Coaching search, insisting that he bring in even better players. And the cycle begins again.

See what's going on here?

Look, while Matt Painter appeared to struggle with landing anywhere near the top ranked players IU was getting, he was building good, solid teams that won - not with bad talent, but with carefully chosen talent that fit the roles Painter needed for his offensive and defensive schemes. And he made them work - hard. Even kicked a few to the curb.

So, despite occasional setbacks as his teams went from old and experienced to young and mistake-prone, Painter kept on course, and kept on winning. Not Final Four level winning, but Sweet Sixteen level winning. And over time, with some dumb luck, a near miss at a Final Four, and some hard earned and honest work, he has started winning more recruiting battles. Not just for random kids with lots of stars strung out next to their names, but kids he knows who fit his system, regardless of their rankings. And now, after winning almost 2/3 of his games, he is at the cusp of producing Final Four quality teams - the right way. He may not get there, but he's a tad closer to that threshold than where IU is at the moment.

But it didn't happen overnight. And it won't for IU.

Look, IU needs to get back into prominence. The B1G is not the same without IU in the hunt. It just isn't.

But IU needs to stop fretting over recruiting stars and numbers, and focus on getting a good young coach who will set up his system and his philosophy and recruit the kinds of kids who will run that system to perfection. And maybe for a few years, there will be ups and downs, and some disappointing recruiting losses.

But if the coach is good, and he holds his ground and establishes his brand, the players will slowly come. It won't matter if he runs RMK's old motion offense, or Denny Crum's run and gun, just that the coach needs to have a clear identity, a brand of basketball he can sell to recruits, not just empty promises of returning the program to glory, whatever the hell that means.

Instead of the endless debate ad nauseam of what coach has the biggest name to draw the best recruits, maybe you all should debate what style of play you want, and what promising young coach has that brand, and is committed to that brand and finding the pieces that make it work.

If Matt Painter can take marginal recruits and build a brand and a program that is now at the doorstep of elite status, surely with patience, trust, and commitment, IU can find that young coach who will not just return IU to prominence, but will build a new legacy for the ages. But it's not going to happen with just finding another name coach who will bring in the "top recruits." You've been down that road enough times, don't you think?

What do they call it when you keep doing the same thing over and over again, and expecting different results?

Figure out what you want IU basketball to be, then find that hard-working, under-appreciated, never quitter who will give you what you want and just needs a break. Make him yours, and support him through thick and thin. And someday, not as far away as you think, your program will be back, and even greater than before.

Or not. Your choice.
Shut up Bob
 

Boilerpointe81

Redshirt
Nov 27, 2017
150
113
43
(Sorry for the length in advance. If you don't want to take the time, fine. No skin off my back. Or sue me. I don't care. I've been on these and other boards since the old Star forums, so I've already heard all the clever witticisms and put downs. So knock yourselves out. But what I have to say here is valid, like it or not.)

For quite awhile, as a sympathetic Purdue fan who genuinely appreciates IU basketball, I have lurked and observed what appears to be very repetitive and predictable behavior on here.

When your coach du jour is in the process of flaming out, you want to get a coach who will recruit the necessary elite players to take your program back to prominence. Okay, fine. <yawn>

Then, when you get your coach, and he gets a good recruiting class or two, but still loses, then the refrain around here is that he cannot coach or develop those players. And when opponents come over here to talk their trash, you insist you still have better players. Okay, then it is the coach, right?

So you all dive headlong into the Next Great Coaching search, insisting that he bring in even better players. And the cycle begins again.

See what's going on here?

Look, while Matt Painter appeared to struggle with landing anywhere near the top ranked players IU was getting, he was building good, solid teams that won - not with bad talent, but with carefully chosen talent that fit the roles Painter needed for his offensive and defensive schemes. And he made them work - hard. Even kicked a few to the curb.

So, despite occasional setbacks as his teams went from old and experienced to young and mistake-prone, Painter kept on course, and kept on winning. Not Final Four level winning, but Sweet Sixteen level winning. And over time, with some dumb luck, a near miss at a Final Four, and some hard earned and honest work, he has started winning more recruiting battles. Not just for random kids with lots of stars strung out next to their names, but kids he knows who fit his system, regardless of their rankings. And now, after winning almost 2/3 of his games, he is at the cusp of producing Final Four quality teams - the right way. He may not get there, but he's a tad closer to that threshold than where IU is at the moment.

But it didn't happen overnight. And it won't for IU.

Look, IU needs to get back into prominence. The B1G is not the same without IU in the hunt. It just isn't.

But IU needs to stop fretting over recruiting stars and numbers, and focus on getting a good young coach who will set up his system and his philosophy and recruit the kinds of kids who will run that system to perfection. And maybe for a few years, there will be ups and downs, and some disappointing recruiting losses.

But if the coach is good, and he holds his ground and establishes his brand, the players will slowly come. It won't matter if he runs RMK's old motion offense, or Denny Crum's run and gun, just that the coach needs to have a clear identity, a brand of basketball he can sell to recruits, not just empty promises of returning the program to glory, whatever the hell that means.

Instead of the endless debate ad nauseam of what coach has the biggest name to draw the best recruits, maybe you all should debate what style of play you want, and what promising young coach has that brand, and is committed to that brand and finding the pieces that make it work.

If Matt Painter can take marginal recruits and build a brand and a program that is now at the doorstep of elite status, surely with patience, trust, and commitment, IU can find that young coach who will not just return IU to prominence, but will build a new legacy for the ages. But it's not going to happen with just finding another name coach who will bring in the "top recruits." You've been down that road enough times, don't you think?

What do they call it when you keep doing the same thing over and over again, and expecting different results?

Figure out what you want IU basketball to be, then find that hard-working, under-appreciated, never quitter who will give you what you want and just needs a break. Make him yours, and support him through thick and thin. And someday, not as far away as you think, your program will be back, and even greater than before.

Or not. Your choice.


Agree on wanting IU to get back at it in b'ball. The B1G was the most fun when all others knew that the road to a B1G championship ran through West L and Bloomington. Lucky for me I got to get degrees from both during that period.

However, Paint has not been consistent and the Paint past not all that glorious. Injuries aside, for a while he got away from recruiting his type of players and the program paid the price.

He does appear to have the program set for success for the next few years and with age he has become more comfortable in his own skin. Things look good.

However, I would like to see PU get some tourney results that ends the debate on how good of a coach he really is. IU had that with Knight and it makes it harder for the IU fanbase to accept Paint like results over 16 years.

Whether or not Arch is the guy is an IU decision. Again - here's hoping that IU gets it right and the road to B1G championships again runs through West L and Bloomington.
 

Hardg

Newcomer
Oct 21, 2018
23
37
13
(Sorry for the length in advance. If you don't want to take the time, fine. No skin off my back. Or sue me. I don't care. I've been on these and other boards since the old Star forums, so I've already heard all the clever witticisms and put downs. So knock yourselves out. But what I have to say here is valid, like it or not.)

For quite awhile, as a sympathetic Purdue fan who genuinely appreciates IU basketball, I have lurked and observed what appears to be very repetitive and predictable behavior on here.

When your coach du jour is in the process of flaming out, you want to get a coach who will recruit the necessary elite players to take your program back to prominence. Okay, fine. <yawn>

Then, when you get your coach, and he gets a good recruiting class or two, but still loses, then the refrain around here is that he cannot coach or develop those players. And when opponents come over here to talk their trash, you insist you still have better players. Okay, then it is the coach, right?

So you all dive headlong into the Next Great Coaching search, insisting that he bring in even better players. And the cycle begins again.

See what's going on here?

Look, while Matt Painter appeared to struggle with landing anywhere near the top ranked players IU was getting, he was building good, solid teams that won - not with bad talent, but with carefully chosen talent that fit the roles Painter needed for his offensive and defensive schemes. And he made them work - hard. Even kicked a few to the curb.

So, despite occasional setbacks as his teams went from old and experienced to young and mistake-prone, Painter kept on course, and kept on winning. Not Final Four level winning, but Sweet Sixteen level winning. And over time, with some dumb luck, a near miss at a Final Four, and some hard earned and honest work, he has started winning more recruiting battles. Not just for random kids with lots of stars strung out next to their names, but kids he knows who fit his system, regardless of their rankings. And now, after winning almost 2/3 of his games, he is at the cusp of producing Final Four quality teams - the right way. He may not get there, but he's a tad closer to that threshold than where IU is at the moment.

But it didn't happen overnight. And it won't for IU.

Look, IU needs to get back into prominence. The B1G is not the same without IU in the hunt. It just isn't.

But IU needs to stop fretting over recruiting stars and numbers, and focus on getting a good young coach who will set up his system and his philosophy and recruit the kinds of kids who will run that system to perfection. And maybe for a few years, there will be ups and downs, and some disappointing recruiting losses.

But if the coach is good, and he holds his ground and establishes his brand, the players will slowly come. It won't matter if he runs RMK's old motion offense, or Denny Crum's run and gun, just that the coach needs to have a clear identity, a brand of basketball he can sell to recruits, not just empty promises of returning the program to glory, whatever the hell that means.

Instead of the endless debate ad nauseam of what coach has the biggest name to draw the best recruits, maybe you all should debate what style of play you want, and what promising young coach has that brand, and is committed to that brand and finding the pieces that make it work.

If Matt Painter can take marginal recruits and build a brand and a program that is now at the doorstep of elite status, surely with patience, trust, and commitment, IU can find that young coach who will not just return IU to prominence, but will build a new legacy for the ages. But it's not going to happen with just finding another name coach who will bring in the "top recruits." You've been down that road enough times, don't you think?

What do they call it when you keep doing the same thing over and over again, and expecting different results?

Figure out what you want IU basketball to be, then find that hard-working, under-appreciated, never quitter who will give you what you want and just needs a break. Make him yours, and support him through thick and thin. And someday, not as far away as you think, your program will be back, and even greater than before.

Or not. Your choice.

A Purdue fan response, you need to be very careful assisting the enemy.


10 U.S. Code § 903b - Art. 103b. Aiding the enemy
  • Any person who—(1)aids, or attempts to aid, the enemy with arms, ammunition, supplies, money, or other things; or(2)without proper authority, knowingly harbors or protects or gives intelligence to, or communicates or corresponds with or holds any intercourse with the enemy, either directly or indirectly;
shall suffer death or such other punishment as a court-martial or military commission may direct. This section does not apply to a military commission established under chapter 47A of this title.
 

jsbanks

Benchwarmer
Jun 25, 2020
210
167
43
If we take away the assumption that a PU poster has evil or dumb intent, and just look at the post, "What does it say?"
We have been spinning our wheels without success for the last decade and a half. May well be correct. We wanted Davis, Crean, and now Miller fired. We have not won championships nor made deep runs in any tournament.
5-star recruits? Romeo did not help and so far (very early) Lander has not made a difference. Our better, and 4-year players, were lessor starred.
He points out in a non-bragging manner that Painter is having some success but not super success (Knight or past IU level success). This seems fairly accurate, especially in looking at head-to-head wins of late.
If I were grading his post (I am not trying to do that, just bring out another possible view of it) I would say that his comments may be accurate but the end result is we still need a new coach and better recruiting. Whether better recruiting means high star guys or guys that fit and can be developed is open for debate.
 

TrojanFan004

Junior
Apr 23, 2020
1,226
864
113
If we take away the assumption that a PU poster has evil or dumb intent, and just look at the post, "What does it say?"
We have been spinning our wheels without success for the last decade and a half. May well be correct. We wanted Davis, Crean, and now Miller fired. We have not won championships nor made deep runs in any tournament.
5-star recruits? Romeo did not help and so far (very early) Lander has not made a difference. Our better, and 4-year players, were lessor starred.
He points out in a non-bragging manner that Painter is having some success but not super success (Knight or past IU level success). This seems fairly accurate, especially in looking at head-to-head wins of late.
If I were grading his post (I am not trying to do that, just bring out another possible view of it) I would say that his comments may be accurate but the end result is we still need a new coach and better recruiting. Whether better recruiting means high star guys or guys that fit and can be developed is open for debate.
I took away from it that IU needs to get a coach more like Painter. I would disagree. If we are going to throw out coaches in which we should theoretically mimic, it should be coaches that have achieved the success we would be looking for in our future program. The programs we should mimic are those that have regular FF runs and even national championships, not a program that has 1 Elite Eight in 16 seasons.

Coach K
Roy Williams
Calipari
Self
Wright
Tony Bennet
Mark Few
Tom Izzo

These are the styles we should be looking for in our future program. All of the coaches listed above understand the importance of getting high level players while also fitting them into their scheme. We should live in the 30-100 range in recruiting while sprinkling in 5* players. That’s how you build an elite team.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Tasmanian Devil
Mar 3, 2020
1,147
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(Sorry for the length in advance. If you don't want to take the time, fine. No skin off my back. Or sue me. I don't care. I've been on these and other boards since the old Star forums, so I've already heard all the clever witticisms and put downs. So knock yourselves out. But what I have to say here is valid, like it or not.)

For quite awhile, as a sympathetic Purdue fan who genuinely appreciates IU basketball, I have lurked and observed what appears to be very repetitive and predictable behavior on here.

When your coach du jour is in the process of flaming out, you want to get a coach who will recruit the necessary elite players to take your program back to prominence. Okay, fine. <yawn>

Then, when you get your coach, and he gets a good recruiting class or two, but still loses, then the refrain around here is that he cannot coach or develop those players. And when opponents come over here to talk their trash, you insist you still have better players. Okay, then it is the coach, right?

So you all dive headlong into the Next Great Coaching search, insisting that he bring in even better players. And the cycle begins again.

See what's going on here?

Look, while Matt Painter appeared to struggle with landing anywhere near the top ranked players IU was getting, he was building good, solid teams that won - not with bad talent, but with carefully chosen talent that fit the roles Painter needed for his offensive and defensive schemes. And he made them work - hard. Even kicked a few to the curb.

So, despite occasional setbacks as his teams went from old and experienced to young and mistake-prone, Painter kept on course, and kept on winning. Not Final Four level winning, but Sweet Sixteen level winning. And over time, with some dumb luck, a near miss at a Final Four, and some hard earned and honest work, he has started winning more recruiting battles. Not just for random kids with lots of stars strung out next to their names, but kids he knows who fit his system, regardless of their rankings. And now, after winning almost 2/3 of his games, he is at the cusp of producing Final Four quality teams - the right way. He may not get there, but he's a tad closer to that threshold than where IU is at the moment.

But it didn't happen overnight. And it won't for IU.

Look, IU needs to get back into prominence. The B1G is not the same without IU in the hunt. It just isn't.

But IU needs to stop fretting over recruiting stars and numbers, and focus on getting a good young coach who will set up his system and his philosophy and recruit the kinds of kids who will run that system to perfection. And maybe for a few years, there will be ups and downs, and some disappointing recruiting losses.

But if the coach is good, and he holds his ground and establishes his brand, the players will slowly come. It won't matter if he runs RMK's old motion offense, or Denny Crum's run and gun, just that the coach needs to have a clear identity, a brand of basketball he can sell to recruits, not just empty promises of returning the program to glory, whatever the hell that means.

Instead of the endless debate ad nauseam of what coach has the biggest name to draw the best recruits, maybe you all should debate what style of play you want, and what promising young coach has that brand, and is committed to that brand and finding the pieces that make it work.

If Matt Painter can take marginal recruits and build a brand and a program that is now at the doorstep of elite status, surely with patience, trust, and commitment, IU can find that young coach who will not just return IU to prominence, but will build a new legacy for the ages. But it's not going to happen with just finding another name coach who will bring in the "top recruits." You've been down that road enough times, don't you think?

What do they call it when you keep doing the same thing over and over again, and expecting different results?

Figure out what you want IU basketball to be, then find that hard-working, under-appreciated, never quitter who will give you what you want and just needs a break. Make him yours, and support him through thick and thin. And someday, not as far away as you think, your program will be back, and even greater than before.

Or not. Your choice.
you are correct and it sounds easy, the problem is we have tried to hire that coach 3 times. luck plays a helluva more of a role than people realize.
 

HoosierJimbo89

All-American
Nov 27, 2010
6,574
3,671
113
Shut up Bob
(Sorry for the length in advance. If you don't want to take the time, fine. No skin off my back. Or sue me. I don't care. I've been on these and other boards since the old Star forums, so I've already heard all the clever witticisms and put downs. So knock yourselves out. But what I have to say here is valid, like it or not.)

For quite awhile, as a sympathetic Purdue fan who genuinely appreciates IU basketball, I have lurked and observed what appears to be very repetitive and predictable behavior on here.

When your coach du jour is in the process of flaming out, you want to get a coach who will recruit the necessary elite players to take your program back to prominence. Okay, fine. <yawn>

Then, when you get your coach, and he gets a good recruiting class or two, but still loses, then the refrain around here is that he cannot coach or develop those players. And when opponents come over here to talk their trash, you insist you still have better players. Okay, then it is the coach, right?

So you all dive headlong into the Next Great Coaching search, insisting that he bring in even better players. And the cycle begins again.

See what's going on here?

Look, while Matt Painter appeared to struggle with landing anywhere near the top ranked players IU was getting, he was building good, solid teams that won - not with bad talent, but with carefully chosen talent that fit the roles Painter needed for his offensive and defensive schemes. And he made them work - hard. Even kicked a few to the curb.

So, despite occasional setbacks as his teams went from old and experienced to young and mistake-prone, Painter kept on course, and kept on winning. Not Final Four level winning, but Sweet Sixteen level winning. And over time, with some dumb luck, a near miss at a Final Four, and some hard earned and honest work, he has started winning more recruiting battles. Not just for random kids with lots of stars strung out next to their names, but kids he knows who fit his system, regardless of their rankings. And now, after winning almost 2/3 of his games, he is at the cusp of producing Final Four quality teams - the right way. He may not get there, but he's a tad closer to that threshold than where IU is at the moment.

But it didn't happen overnight. And it won't for IU.

Look, IU needs to get back into prominence. The B1G is not the same without IU in the hunt. It just isn't.

But IU needs to stop fretting over recruiting stars and numbers, and focus on getting a good young coach who will set up his system and his philosophy and recruit the kinds of kids who will run that system to perfection. And maybe for a few years, there will be ups and downs, and some disappointing recruiting losses.

But if the coach is good, and he holds his ground and establishes his brand, the players will slowly come. It won't matter if he runs RMK's old motion offense, or Denny Crum's run and gun, just that the coach needs to have a clear identity, a brand of basketball he can sell to recruits, not just empty promises of returning the program to glory, whatever the hell that means.

Instead of the endless debate ad nauseam of what coach has the biggest name to draw the best recruits, maybe you all should debate what style of play you want, and what promising young coach has that brand, and is committed to that brand and finding the pieces that make it work.

If Matt Painter can take marginal recruits and build a brand and a program that is now at the doorstep of elite status, surely with patience, trust, and commitment, IU can find that young coach who will not just return IU to prominence, but will build a new legacy for the ages. But it's not going to happen with just finding another name coach who will bring in the "top recruits." You've been down that road enough times, don't you think?

What do they call it when you keep doing the same thing over and over again, and expecting different results?

Figure out what you want IU basketball to be, then find that hard-working, under-appreciated, never quitter who will give you what you want and just needs a break. Make him yours, and support him through thick and thin. And someday, not as far away as you think, your program will be back, and even greater than before.

Or not. Your choice.
That sounds like one big excuse for keeping Painter around for 16 years when he hasn't achieved significant national success. That also sounds like one big argument for why IU should also have lowered standards and give up trying to find a great coach.

IU basically had Painter when Crean was the coach, only Crean was a better recruiter and had been to a FF before: it wasn't good enough for IU. Yes, you do need a coach that is a great recruiter and a great X's and O's guy, and that is what IU is looking for: if PU has a different standard, that is fine, different strokes for different folks. No offense, but if it hasn't happened for a coach after 4-5 years, it never is going happen: Matt is what he is.
 
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Boilerpointe81

Redshirt
Nov 27, 2017
150
113
43
That sounds like one big excuse for keeping Painter around for 16 years when he hasn't achieved significant national success. That also sounds like one big argument for why IU should also have lowered standards and give up trying to find a great coach.

IU basically had Painter when Crean was the coach, only Crean was a better recruiter and had been to a FF before: it wasn't good enough for IU. Yes, you do need a coach that is a great recruiter and a great X's and O's guy, and that is what IU is looking for: if PU has a different standard, that is fine, different strokes for different folks. No offense, but if it hasn't happened for a coach after 4-5 years, it never is going happen: Matt is what he is.
So if a coach hasn't delivered in 4-5 years it's never going to happen? Do you read what you write? Never is a long time.
 

HoosierJimbo89

All-American
Nov 27, 2010
6,574
3,671
113
So if a coach hasn't delivered in 4-5 years it's never going to happen? Do you read what you write? Never is a long time.
Probably not. That is generally what coaches get to meet expectations. I think you certainly know what type of coach you have after 16 years.
 

76-1

All-American
Mar 22, 2017
7,380
10,628
113
Indiana
(Sorry for the length in advance. If you don't want to take the time, fine. No skin off my back. Or sue me. I don't care. I've been on these and other boards since the old Star forums, so I've already heard all the clever witticisms and put downs. So knock yourselves out. But what I have to say here is valid, like it or not.)

For quite awhile, as a sympathetic Purdue fan who genuinely appreciates IU basketball, I have lurked and observed what appears to be very repetitive and predictable behavior on here.

When your coach du jour is in the process of flaming out, you want to get a coach who will recruit the necessary elite players to take your program back to prominence. Okay, fine. <yawn>

Then, when you get your coach, and he gets a good recruiting class or two, but still loses, then the refrain around here is that he cannot coach or develop those players. And when opponents come over here to talk their trash, you insist you still have better players. Okay, then it is the coach, right?

So you all dive headlong into the Next Great Coaching search, insisting that he bring in even better players. And the cycle begins again.

See what's going on here?

Look, while Matt Painter appeared to struggle with landing anywhere near the top ranked players IU was getting, he was building good, solid teams that won - not with bad talent, but with carefully chosen talent that fit the roles Painter needed for his offensive and defensive schemes. And he made them work - hard. Even kicked a few to the curb.

So, despite occasional setbacks as his teams went from old and experienced to young and mistake-prone, Painter kept on course, and kept on winning. Not Final Four level winning, but Sweet Sixteen level winning. And over time, with some dumb luck, a near miss at a Final Four, and some hard earned and honest work, he has started winning more recruiting battles. Not just for random kids with lots of stars strung out next to their names, but kids he knows who fit his system, regardless of their rankings. And now, after winning almost 2/3 of his games, he is at the cusp of producing Final Four quality teams - the right way. He may not get there, but he's a tad closer to that threshold than where IU is at the moment.

But it didn't happen overnight. And it won't for IU.

Look, IU needs to get back into prominence. The B1G is not the same without IU in the hunt. It just isn't.

But IU needs to stop fretting over recruiting stars and numbers, and focus on getting a good young coach who will set up his system and his philosophy and recruit the kinds of kids who will run that system to perfection. And maybe for a few years, there will be ups and downs, and some disappointing recruiting losses.

But if the coach is good, and he holds his ground and establishes his brand, the players will slowly come. It won't matter if he runs RMK's old motion offense, or Denny Crum's run and gun, just that the coach needs to have a clear identity, a brand of basketball he can sell to recruits, not just empty promises of returning the program to glory, whatever the hell that means.

Instead of the endless debate ad nauseam of what coach has the biggest name to draw the best recruits, maybe you all should debate what style of play you want, and what promising young coach has that brand, and is committed to that brand and finding the pieces that make it work.

If Matt Painter can take marginal recruits and build a brand and a program that is now at the doorstep of elite status, surely with patience, trust, and commitment, IU can find that young coach who will not just return IU to prominence, but will build a new legacy for the ages. But it's not going to happen with just finding another name coach who will bring in the "top recruits." You've been down that road enough times, don't you think?

What do they call it when you keep doing the same thing over and over again, and expecting different results?

Figure out what you want IU basketball to be, then find that hard-working, under-appreciated, never quitter who will give you what you want and just needs a break. Make him yours, and support him through thick and thin. And someday, not as far away as you think, your program will be back, and even greater than before.

Or not. Your choice.

It's Official..., we've hit bedrock... This IS the bottom... (or within inches of it..., if we lose to p u by a nearly predictable double digits tomorrow That will be ground zero...).

Why is this nearly the bottom you ask...(?) : because, A) we're getting sympathy and advice from a p u fan And B) he's Right (which seems even worse somehow 😉)...

🙈🙉😖😖😖
 

HoosierJimbo89

All-American
Nov 27, 2010
6,574
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Scott Drew an often referenced potential IU b'ball savior says hello
Great coaches don't go to PU.

Scott Drew? He started out in the roughest circumstances possible at a historically bad basketball program. Nonetheless, by year 5, he had turned things around and was in an Elite 8 by year 7. I think you can argue he deserved some leeway, was punching above his weight class, reached his potential at Baylor, and could do better at a bigger program.
 

Columbus-Boiler

Sophomore
Jun 6, 2001
726
710
93
Great coaches don't go to PU.

Scott Drew? He started out in the roughest circumstances possible at a historically bad basketball program. Nonetheless, by year 5, he had turned things around and was in an Elite 8 by year 7. I think you can argue he deserved some leeway, was punching above his weight class, reached his potential at Baylor, and could do better at a bigger program.

I'm not sure you leave a program where you have a top 5 ranking and 1 or 2 seed resume to go to a program where you hope to get it to the same point in 5 years if you are lucky. If he is one and done in the tournament this year and next.....maybe, but if he is would IU be interested in that kind of success?
 

TrojanFan004

Junior
Apr 23, 2020
1,226
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I'm not sure you leave a program where you have a top 5 ranking and 1 or 2 seed resume to go to a program where you hope to get it to the same point in 5 years if you are lucky. If he is one and done in the tournament this year and next.....maybe, but if he is would IU be interested in that kind of success?
It all depends how much money IU is willing to throw at him. He wouldn’t be my first realistic choice, but I would be thrilled to have him.
 

Boilerpointe81

Redshirt
Nov 27, 2017
150
113
43
Great coaches don't go to PU.

Scott Drew? He started out in the roughest circumstances possible at a historically bad basketball program. Nonetheless, by year 5, he had turned things around and was in an Elite 8 by year 7. I think you can argue he deserved some leeway, was punching above his weight class, reached his potential at Baylor, and could do better at a bigger program.
You said if it doesn’t happen in 4-5 years it’s never going to. The only person your arguing with is yourself.
 
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HoosierJimbo89

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You said if it doesn’t happen in 4-5 years it’s never going to. The only person your arguing with is yourself.
If you don't think Baylor's circumstances and the history of their program are factors, then agree to disagree.

If you think Matt is something other then what he's been for the past 16 years, I've got 16 years that say otherwise.
 

Boilerpointe81

Redshirt
Nov 27, 2017
150
113
43
If you don't think Baylor's circumstances and the history of their program are factors, then agree to disagree.

If you think Matt is something other then what he's been for the past 16 years, I've got 16 years that say otherwise.
Never is the word you chose not me. Again you are arguing with yourself.
 

Boilpotato

Redshirt
Oct 23, 2018
107
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That sounds like one big excuse for keeping Painter around for 16 years when he hasn't achieved significant national success. That also sounds like one big argument for why IU should also have lowered standards and give up trying to find a great coach.

IU basically had Painter when Crean was the coach, only Crean was a better recruiter and had been to a FF before: it wasn't good enough for IU. Yes, you do need a coach that is a great recruiter and a great X's and O's guy, and that is what IU is looking for: if PU has a different standard, that is fine, different strokes for different folks. No offense, but if it hasn't happened for a coach after 4-5 years, it never is going happen: Matt is what he is.

Wow tough take here man. Matt is what he is... great insight here. Painter got the gig when he was 35 years old. How many coaches going to elevate a program at 35 you think? Silly.
Had a period where injuries hurt during tourney. Purdue was probably going to be ranked #3 when Hummel got hurt. DIfferent standard? Turn on the TV watch college basketball and will hear multiple times college basketball so called experts praising Painter as a coach and has earned respect from his colleagues. Guy is totally coming into his own as a Coach and grown into the position. Involved now in USA basketball program(Crean, Archie ever part of this?) and guy is obviously recruiting better than ever. I'm sure if you lived in Virginia you probably would have ranted on Bennett forever.

IU cesspool making lot of people bitter here. Unfortunately not going to get better at all anytime soon , and Purdue will continue to dominate this once rivalry.

Enjoy the game tomorrow. Make sure watch closely though how good teams execute when taught correctly.
 

Boilerpointe81

Redshirt
Nov 27, 2017
150
113
43
I said probably not, certainly not after 16. Who would you replace Painter with, if you could?
. You said “if it’s not happened for a coach in 4-5 years, it’s NEVER going to”. Your words not mine, in this post. With multiple degrees I thought you would know that never is not equal to probably not.
 

go_iu

Senior
Feb 22, 2004
2,141
1,099
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The basic problem is that AM can't do either well and has proven that. He has underperformed from set expectations, and we still owe him a lot of money. There's virtually no one we can hire that can fix it next year because of said ineptitude. So, there's a 50/50 chance IU might just say F it, let's not reward this a-hole and let him absorb the media hit if he won't negotiate a buyout this year, especially if we are going to suck again regardless and potentially more COVID issues. Let him ruin his reputation and future opportunities on his own
 

HoosierJimbo89

All-American
Nov 27, 2010
6,574
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. You said “if it’s not happened for a coach in 4-5 years, it’s NEVER going to”. Your words not mine, in this post. With multiple degrees I thought you would know that never is not equal to probably not.
I'm allowed to expand on a conversation. But, congratulations: you've spent a lot of time nitpicking my words. I'm sure I could do the same to you, but don't care to. Show him what he's won: wasted time he can never get back.

I'm just pointing out Painter's shortcomings: don't shoot the messenger.
 

HoosierJimbo89

All-American
Nov 27, 2010
6,574
3,671
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Wow tough take here man. Matt is what he is... great insight here. Painter got the gig when he was 35 years old. How many coaches going to elevate a program at 35 you think? Silly.
Had a period where injuries hurt during tourney. Purdue was probably going to be ranked #3 when Hummel got hurt. DIfferent standard? Turn on the TV watch college basketball and will hear multiple times college basketball so called experts praising Painter as a coach and has earned respect from his colleagues. Guy is totally coming into his own as a Coach and grown into the position. Involved now in USA basketball program(Crean, Archie ever part of this?) and guy is obviously recruiting better than ever. I'm sure if you lived in Virginia you probably would have ranted on Bennett forever.

IU cesspool making lot of people bitter here. Unfortunately not going to get better at all anytime soon , and Purdue will continue to dominate this once rivalry.

Enjoy the game tomorrow. Make sure watch closely though how good teams execute when taught correctly.
The great ones can do great things when they are young. Bob Knight accomplished more than PU ever will during ages 35-36.

Couldn't you say Keady was "coming into his own?" Maybe Matt simply is what he is and there are 16 years of evidence to back it up: I think occam's razor applies here.

A bunch of excuses, blah, blah, blah. After 16 years, you are what your record is: don't shoot the messenger. You would think even a blind squirrel would find a nut after 16 or 25 years, but not at PU!
 

Boilerpointe81

Redshirt
Nov 27, 2017
150
113
43
I'm allowed to expand on a conversation. But, congratulations: you've spent a lot of time nitpicking my words. I'm sure I could do the same to you, but don't care to. Show him what he's won: wasted time he can never get back.

I'm just pointing out Painter's shortcomings: don't shoot the messenger.
Never doesn’t leave room for expansion. It’s absolute.
 

HoosierJimbo89

All-American
Nov 27, 2010
6,574
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Never doesn’t leave room for expansion. It’s absolute.
Still on this kick? What do you think the odds are Matt Painter never makes a FF: 100%, 110%, 120%? Maybe if Matt gets 40 more years, the blind squirrel will find a nut? It has only taken him 16 years to hit his stride, lolz. Most schools would have fired him by now, not PU!
 

Boilpotato

Redshirt
Oct 23, 2018
107
71
28
The great ones can do great things when they are young.

Couldn't you say Keady was "coming into his own?" Maybe Matt simply is what he is and there are 16 years of evidence to back it up: I think occam's razor applies here.

A bunch of excuses, blah, blah, blah. After 16 years, you are what your record is: don't shoot the messenger.


Love a guy and folks here spouting sewage at Purdue when they have embarrassed in state rivals 5 years in a row. Reality going to get a helluva lot worse the next couple of years starting with tomorrow. But hey again, enjoy the game tomorrow when you get throttled again.
Keep up the good takes though. So enjoying this. Can't spell delusional with IU.
 

HoosierJimbo89

All-American
Nov 27, 2010
6,574
3,671
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Love a guy and folks here spouting sewage at Purdue when they have embarrassed in state rivals 5 years in a row. Reality going to get a helluva lot worse the next couple of years starting with tomorrow. But hey again, enjoy the game tomorrow when you get throttled again.
Keep up the good takes though. So enjoying this. Can't spell delusional with IU.
PU is only embarrassing itself by keeping Painter around. He simply wouldn't have lasted this long at IU. You want to keep your Tom Crean around, knock yourselves out.

Delusion is thinking Matt Painter is ever going to do something in year 16 that he has never done before.

Sometimes you are up, sometimes you are down. I've seen Mike Davis own you guys. It will come back around, just a matter of time.
 

Boilpotato

Redshirt
Oct 23, 2018
107
71
28
PU is only embarrassing itself by keeping Painter around. He simply wouldn't have lasted this long at IU. You want to keep your Tom Crean around, knock yourselves out.

Delusion is thinking Matt Painter is ever going to do something in year 16 that he has never done before.

Sometimes you are up, sometimes you are down. I've seen Mike Davis own you guys. It will come back around, just a matter of time.


You are truly one of the dumbest posters here, congrats on your takes.
Enjoy the game tomorrow and after the 9th straight defeat(inevitable) you will drop a pearl how bad other programs are. One of the IU fans who truly deserve to witness this continuous cesspool of a basketball program.
 

Boilerpointe81

Redshirt
Nov 27, 2017
150
113
43
PU is only embarrassing itself by keeping Painter around. He simply wouldn't have lasted this long at IU. You want to keep your Tom Crean around, knock yourselves out.

Delusion is thinking Matt Painter is ever going to do something in year 16 that he has never done before.

Sometimes you are up, sometimes you are down. I've seen Mike Davis own you guys. It will come back around, just a matter of time.

Got it. Purdue is embarrassing itself and delusional. Your takes NEVER fail to make me laugh. Please keep the hot takes coming.
 

HoosierJimbo89

All-American
Nov 27, 2010
6,574
3,671
113
You are truly one of the dumbest posters here, congrats on your takes.
Enjoy the game tomorrow and after the 9th straight defeat(inevitable) you will drop a pearl how bad other programs are. One of the IU fans who truly deserve to witness this continuous cesspool of a basketball program.
Congratulations on showing your low intelligence by calling names! Why am I "dumb" by pointing out that Matt Painter will never do anything of significance in the Tourney, just like Gene? Remember how Gene never accomplished anything of significance in the NCAA's? Matt is the same way. How can you get excited over Painter after 16 years? Crean got old in 5-6.
 

HoosierJimbo89

All-American
Nov 27, 2010
6,574
3,671
113
Got it. Purdue is embarrassing itself and delusional. Your takes NEVER fail to make me laugh. Please keep the hot takes coming.
Pretty much. You know what you are getting from Matt, yet you keep him around. Seriously, why does PU keep Matt around? Don't call me names and let's talk about it: why keep Matt around after 16 years when he has never done anything significant in the Tourney? Do you really believe that Matt is a better coach than Crean?
 

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