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Raise your hand if you changed your party identification sometime in your lifetime.

crazed_hoosier2 said:
We have bigger fish to fry. That's not to say there's no longer any racism or anything like that. But it's nowhere near the kind of problem some seem to think it is. And it certainly ought not be such a prime focus in our society.
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My guess is you're white.

As far as "racism being ok now", actual white supremacists praise Trump all the time for "speaking their language" and "making them more acceptable."

He's the ONLY Prez that would flat-out refuse to rip them instead of his false equivalency nonsense........and they actually CHEERED it.
 
crazed_hoosier2 said:
Oh, and let's not forget the Tea Party. That entire movement is borne of thinly-veiled racism, doncha know.

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Tea Baggers across the country got busted for sending out "jokes" about Obama and watermelon.

You're right, though, racism had nothing to do with them.....even when virtually 100% were Birthers.

Also, those clowns never said a single word......not one......about the exploding debt until the black guy took over even though Georgie exploded it.

They only started wearing those stupid costumes after he was out of office.
 
TheVegasHoosier said:
Tea Baggers across the country got busted for sending out "jokes" about Obama and watermelon.

You're right, though, racism had nothing to do with them.....even when virtually 100% were Birthers.

Also, those clowns never said a single word......not one......about the exploding debt until the black guy took over even though Georgie exploded it.

They only started wearing those stupid costumes after he was out of office.
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Hell, I've been emailed jokes like that from my union employees.

What's that say about unions?

Not much.
 
TheOriginalHappyGoat said:
No, but it says something about the particular employees who sent them. It also probably says something about how said employees think of you, which shouldn't be flattering.
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I'm on some distribution lists -- it's not like they've sent me these one-on-one.

Point is: whatever it says about the individuals who sent those, it's one of the most common logical fallacies to extrapolate that to deduce something about an organization they belong to.

The Tea Party was motivated by taxes and spending -- at least at first. Eventually, some opportunistic SoCons hopped aboard and rode the wave (not that I blame them).

But it was never about race -- Obama's or otherwise.

The further point is: when haven't liberals tarred anybody who stands in their way and threatens their precious welfare state as racists?

Meh. I pay it no mind. There are valid reasons to dislike (or even disdain) Donald Trump. Racism isn't one of them. That's just the liberal response to pretty much anything.
 
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TheVegasHoosier said:
How do you know they weren't Tea Baggers just because they belonged to a union?

My dad was a Teamster and loved Limbaugh.
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I'm saying that specific members of a group having a certain characteristic doesn't necessarily mean the group as a whole (or even a majority, or even a significant number of them) shares that characteristic.

You said that some TPers were sending racist jokes. That doesn't say anything about the TP itself -- and anybody who suggests that it does fails the most basic test of logic.
 
crazed_hoosier2 said:
Meh. I pay it no mind. There are valid reasons to dislike (or even disdain) Donald Trump. Racism isn't one of them. That's just the liberal response to pretty much anything.
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Trump is the king of birtherism. Birtherism is inherently racist. I don't know how racist Trump is, but he's definitely carrying a non-zero amount of racism around.
 
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crazed_hoosier2 said:
The Tea Party was motivated by taxes and spending --

But it was never about race -- Obama's or otherwise.

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That's a load of crap.

As I said, when Georgie was exploding the debt, these people were dead silent.

In fact, when Georgie gave us a tax cut during war time for the first time ever, these "Super Patriots" should have said, "This is an outrage. Every generation before us sacrificed during war time. Instead of cutting our taxes, you should be raising them to pay for these wars."

Instead, they said, "Gimme, gimme, gimme."

And from the very start, at every Tea Bagger rally, I saw posters of Obama depicted as an African with a bone in his nose.

I also remember a dude going to Palin rallies and interviewing people while they waited in line. When they knew the camera was on them, they'd claim, "His race has nothing to do with why we hate Obama." Then he'd turn the camera away and they'd say, "I'll never vote for a n-word in my life" when they thought the camera was off.

These people were the Birther Die-Hards.
 
TheOriginalHappyGoat said:
Trump is the king of birtherism. Birtherism is inherently racist. I don't know how racist Trump is, but he's definitely carrying a non-zero amount of racism around.
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I think Birtherism was stupid on any number of levels. But racist? Not necessarily -- and certainly not "inherently."

Now, clearly, plenty of racists grabbed hold of it. I wouldn't deny that -- it seems obvious on its face. But saying that Obama wasn't eligible to be president because of the circumstances of his birth, in and of itself, is no more anti-black than saying the same thing about Ted Cruz (born in Canada) is anti-Hispanic....or about McCain (in Germany) is anti-white.

A number of black people have run for POTUS -- off the top of my head: Jesse Jackson, Al Sharpton, Herman Cain, and Ben Carson. So far as I can recall, the only one who got the Birther stuff was Obama....and that was likely due to his father having been Kenyan.

Still, if you guys want to think Trump's a racist, knock yourselves out. But I don't buy it. It factors about zero to me.

Now, if he begins to be a hindrance to the agenda I'd like to see, that'll change my tune. Because that's what motivates me.
 
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TheVegasHoosier said:
That's a load of crap.

As I said, when Georgie was exploding the debt, these people were dead silent.

In fact, when Georgie gave us a tax cut during war time for the first time ever, these "Super Patriots" should have said, "This is an outrage. Every generation before us sacrificed during war time. Instead of cutting our taxes, you should be raising them to pay for these wars."

Instead, they said, "Gimme, gimme, gimme."

And from the very start, at every Tea Bagger rally, I saw posters of Obama depicted as an African with a bone in his nose.

I also remember a dude going to Palin rallies and interviewing people while they waited in line. When they knew the camera was on them, they'd claim, "His race has nothing to do with why we hate Obama." Then he'd turn the camera away and they'd say, "I'll never vote for a n-word in my life" when they thought the camera was off.

These people were the Birther Die-Hards.
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You realize that you're proving my point, right?

You guys see racism everywhere you look. And, IMO, it's a big reason you've been getting your asses kicked.
 
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crazed_hoosier2 said:
A number of black people have run for POTUS -- off the top of my head: Jesse Jackson, Al Sharpton, Herman Cain, and Ben Carson. So far as I can recall, the only one who got the Birther stuff was Obama....and that was likely due to his father having been Kenyan.
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Obama's father was what made birtherism possible, but that doesn't speak to the motivation behind it. The motivation is inherently racist. It's not that questions haven't been raised about others; they have (McCain was born in Panama, BTW), but the extent to which it grew for Obama was absolutely tied to the fact he was a dark guy with a funny name. Thinking otherwise is naive.
 
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TheOriginalHappyGoat said:
Obama's father was what made birtherism possible, but that doesn't speak to the motivation behind it. The motivation is inherently racist. It's not that questions haven't been raised about others; they have (McCain was born in Panama, BTW), but the extent to which it grew for Obama was absolutely tied to the fact he was a dark guy with a funny name. Thinking otherwise is naive.
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The motivation behind it was a desperate attempt to preclude, and then end, his presidency by any available means.

I'm sure that, in some cases, racism was a driving force behind that goal. But it certainly wasn't "inherent." I'm sure, in plenty of other cases, it was simply opposition to his policies.

You may think that's naive. But we're all entitled to our opinions. You can't see into the hearts of large numbers of people.

If Barack Obama had boinked an intern and then lied under oath about it, I'm sure lots of people would've used that as a means to come after him...and lots of others would've chalked that up to racism. That doesn't mean they'd have been right, though.
 
crazed_hoosier2 said:
The motivation behind it was a desperate attempt to preclude, and then end, his presidency by any available means.

I'm sure that, in some cases, racism was a driving force behind that goal. But it certainly wasn't "inherent." I'm sure, in plenty of other cases, it was simply opposition to his policies.

You may think that's naive. But we're all entitled to our opinions. You can't see into the hearts of large numbers of people.
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Yes, that's naive and so are you if you really believe it. But then I think you are playing this game just to win the argument. You are too smart to believe such nonsense, and certainly, you are not a racist.
 
crazed_hoosier2 said:
I'm sure that, in some cases, racism was a driving force behind that goal. But it certainly wasn't "inherent." I'm sure, in plenty of other cases, it was simply opposition to his policies.
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Let's be clear - I'm not saying each individual birther is a racist. I'm saying that the entire birther phenomenon is inherently rooted in racism. That doesn't mean that various people didn't latch onto it for other reasons.

Many candidates have had their citizenship questioned by some. It goes back at least as far as Chester A. Arthur, maybe further. But only with Obama did it blow up from a fringe theory into something mainstream. It's absolutely not a coincidence that the first birther movement to gain actual traction involved the black guy with a funny name. And, yes, it's absolutely naive to not realize that.
 
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TheOriginalHappyGoat said:
Let's be clear - I'm not saying each individual birther is a racist. I'm saying that the entire birther phenomenon is inherently rooted in racism. That doesn't mean that various people didn't latch onto it for other reasons.

Many candidates have had their citizenship questioned by some. It goes back at least as far as Chester A. Arthur, maybe further. But only with Obama did it blow up from a fringe theory into something mainstream. It's absolutely not a coincidence that the first birther movement to gain actual traction involved the black guy with a funny name. And, yes, it's absolutely naive to not realize that.
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That's not why it blew up with Obama. It blew up with him because he won, had a massive amount of charisma, brought with him a large Democratic Congressional majority, and thus posed a significant threat to many peoples' agendas.

Moreover, it blew up because he (quite deftly, I might add) trolled and toyed with the idiots who were pressing it.
 
crazed_hoosier2 said:
That's not why it blew up with Obama. It blew up with him because he won, had a massive amount of charisma, brought with him a large Democratic Congressional majority, and thus posed a significant threat to many peoples' agendas.

Moreover, it blew up because he (quite deftly, I might add) trolled and toyed with the idiots who were pressing it.
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Like I said, absolutely naive. You regularly accuse liberals of seeing racism everywhere, but you suffer from exactly the opposite - you can't see it when it's right in front of your face.
 
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TheOriginalHappyGoat said:
Like I said, absolutely naive. You regularly accuse liberals of seeing racism everywhere, but you suffer from exactly the opposite - you can't see it when it's right in front of your face.
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That's not true at all. I see it -- and call it out -- when it actually does exist.

And I've no doubt that it was a key motivator for many birthers. But "inherent"? Nah.
 
crazed_hoosier2 said:
I'm on some distribution lists -- it's not like they've sent me these one-on-one.

Point is: whatever it says about the individuals who sent those, it's one of the most common logical fallacies to extrapolate that to deduce something about an organization they belong to.

The Tea Party was motivated by taxes and spending -- at least at first. Eventually, some opportunistic SoCons hopped aboard and rode the wave (not that I blame them).

But it was never about race -- Obama's or otherwise.

The further point is: when haven't liberals tarred anybody who stands in their way and threatens their precious welfare state as racists?

Meh. I pay it no mind. There are valid reasons to dislike (or even disdain) Donald Trump. Racism isn't one of them. That's just the liberal response to pretty much anything.
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Damn, they have an entire list of people they feel comfortable sending racist jokes to?
 
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meridian said:
"Pro-Life" is a catchy but inappropriate word in this context. How many people have you met who are not "pro-life"? You and I are poles apart politically, but do you really wish me dead?:(
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Not sure why you are offended by TV episode term, but I'm pro choice and will never budge on that issue. I was just using mainstream lingo.
 
JamieDimonsBalls said:
Such as? Hasn't the GOP always been Pro Life, for instance?
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meridian said:
"Pro-Life" is a catchy but inappropriate word in this context. How many people have you met who are not "pro-life"? You and I are poles apart politically, but do you really wish me dead?:(
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JamieDimonsBalls said:
Not sure why you are offended by TV episode term, but I'm pro choice and will never budge on that issue. I was just using mainstream lingo.
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Offended? Yes, I am offended by the term "Pro Life" as if there are people who are "anti-life."
 
meridian said:
Offended? Yes, I am offended by the term "Pro Life" as if there are people who are "anti-life."
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I have to agree meridian there is no one anti-life, but there are people that are anti- responsibility ;)
 
meridian said:
Offended? Yes, I am offended by the term "Pro Life" as if there are people who are "anti-life."
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AP standards used to be to us "abortion rights advocates" and "anti-abortion activists." But, let's be honest, it's easier to just say "pro-choice" and "pro-life." There's really no point in getting offended by what has become universally-accepted shorthand.
 
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TheOriginalHappyGoat said:
AP standards used to be to us "abortion rights advocates" and "anti-abortion activists." But, let's be honest, it's easier to just say "pro-choice" and "pro-life." There's really no point in getting offended by what has become universally-accepted shorthand.
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Easy or not, "pro-life" is an obnoxious sounding term, because it literally implies that the opposition of "pro-life" is "anti-life." I assure you that I am not anti-life! I bet you are not either.
 
meridian said:
Easy or not, "pro-life" is an obnoxious sounding term, because it literally implies that the opposition of "pro-life" is "anti-life." I assure you that I am not anti-life! I bet you are not either.
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And pro-lifers can say the same thing about the term "pro-choice." It is what it is. These are the terms we've settled on.

Don't get me wrong, keep fighting the good fight if you want. I'm all for pushing semantic arguments in the face of overwhelming opposition. I'm just saying, don't forget there is overwhelming opposition. This fight's probably already lost. Sort of on par with criticizing improper use of "begging the question." :p
 
meridian said:
Easy or not, "pro-life" is an obnoxious sounding term, because it literally implies that the opposition of "pro-life" is "anti-life." I assure you that I am not anti-life! I bet you are not either.
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You can go with pro-abortion and anti-abortion, if you prefer.
 
meridian said:
Or, pro-choice vs anti-choice. That would be a better terminology. But then, as Goat says the game of naming has passed by us.:(
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Not if you believe the unborn baby is a life. I think pro and anti abortion are probably the most neutral and accurate, but the terms are settled now, as Goat says.
 
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