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Discussion in 'IU Football Board' started by lorenaimee, Jan 12, 2019.
For those who might know, will a new OC come in with a new playbook and offensive style of his own?
Yes. 100% new playbook. Maybe similar RPO concepts depending on the OC, but different playbook.
Unless it's Heard/Hart as Co-OCs and they just run with what Debord has installed already.
People do co-OC titles, but doesn’t there need to be one person truly in charge?
That will not happen.
I hope the new OC, whoever it is, has an offense that fits our players and is much more explosive. A lot of the lack of explosiveness was due to Ramsey though as I broke down films to see what was going on with the offense. Ramsey's play doesn't make the other player's game better but pulls them down IE breaking the pocket when not needed destroying the OL blocks.
I think the Debord/Ramsey/Allen were so concerned with taking care of the ball and preventing turnovers that they opted to call safe high percentage passing plays. Thats why we saw throws short of the sticks or Ramsey running instead of letting long plays develop. They didn't want to take the risk.
Hopefully the knew OC can convince Allen to take some risks and more shots down the field.
Interesting, and you know exactly what you are talking about...your resume backs it up! Alabama can win with Ramsey, but IU, Purdue, Kentucky, Illinois, etc., need dynamic play from their quarterback.
I did think Ramsey played much better late in the season, particularly from the Minnesota game on.
I doubt a starter will be named prior to fall camp. I expect a wide-open competition involving Ramsey, Penix and Tuttle, and may the best man win. And the two "non-starters" will need to be ready at a moment's notice, as backup QBs usually find their way onto the field.
Can I tell you how ridiculous this thing about IU throwing short of the sticks is. You act like IU is the only team in the world that does watch the Purdue vs Auburn game see how many times Purdue does it in the game. Watch the Colts vs Texans game. Tell me how many times the Texans did it. Every team throws short of the sticks in almost every game.
The other thing that drives me up a wall is this thing about Ramsey leaving the pocket prematurely is crazy you say that you coach and I have no reason to believe you have not but you should know that a quarterback should have an internal clock he has to know when the routes are covered and he needs to either throw the ball away or tuck it away and run.
I will not argue that there needs to be a serious competition at quarterback. I do hope one of the others are able to unseat him because that means that one of two tremendously talented guys have learned to take care the football and mastered the offense.
If Tuttle is granted eligibility and is named the starter, Penix is gone. It’s a trend and I don’t see a kid with that much talent becoming a backup. Same could be said for Ramsey too. A deep position could and more than likely will get thin.
Look, I know you and others hate the throwing short of the sticks argument. However, statistics back up the assertion that the conservative play calling AND on field execution resulted in a proportionally large amount of short yardage throws. Here are stats showing how we ranked vs 130 FBS teams in 2018:
11th in Completions
13th in Comp%.
107th in Yards per Attempt
How can you be top 11/13 in Completions and %Comp and STILL rank 107th in YPA? You get there by throwing short yardage, high completion % passes.
If you'd like more stats, here are S&P rankings.
71st in S&P+ Offense - Average
42nd in Success Rate - upper 32%
123rd in Explosiveness - bottom 5%
These numbers tell you that while we are proficient at moving the ball, we are always playing behind the sticks. Dinking and dunking down the field depending on YAC to get across the line of gain.
The numbers back it up. I don't know what else to say about it.
it's actually even worse than that: add in the fact that IU's offense was 83rd nationally in RZO, 87th in SO, and 93rd in TOP, and what you have is an offense that 1) throws lots of short passes (124th in Yds Per Completion), 2) between the 20-yd lines, 3) without scoring very much, while 4) not holding onto the football long enough
Yes but sooner or later your receivers have to make a play for you and break a long one. We were able to move the chains as I have said over and over again and out low Ref Zone proficienciy cost us many scoring opportunities. Yes that was a combination of things that caused low percentage poor execution, missed blocks, lack of true explosive playmakers.
If you are right about not having true explosive players, why did we keep throwing it short and expecting our receivers to get YAC? We had Whop, who could take it to the house, but he was hurt. We replaced him with Timian but he was never going to break one. Why didn't we change the game plan after Whop went down and never came back 100%?
Why didn't we call more plays to take advantage of Hale and Westbrook's height and length on the outside and have them go up and get a 50-50 ball? Maybe we did and Ramsey couldn't or wouldn't pill the trigger and checked down for another short throw? Moot point now.
Bottom line is, we need to stretch a defense and put pressure on them by pushing the ball up field. If you can do that consistently it will open up the defense below so Whop can take a short pass and run without getting plastered by a safety sitting on his route.
Actually your holding onto the ball enough is not actually that correct ... although not great it 44 in the country in first downs only two total first downs behind the genius at pu they were ahead of Wisconsin, Fresno State, Michigan, Penn State, Nebraska, Iowa, Auburn.
They were 45 in Offensive Efficiency ahead of Kentucky, Duke whose quarterback is supposed to be top 5 nfl prospects, Maryland and Matt Canada.
Yes numbers are not great but are better than what you suggest.
You stretch the defense with speed. Are you saying are outside receivers had speed.
Also you have to understand route running. If a team plays a deep zone you try to run past it you find voids in those zones and gear. Two teams that played press coverage and a lot of man were Ohio State and Michigan arguably the two games we had most success getting the ball down the field against.
disagree: at some juncture, it's about scoring points and last year's offense wasted too much time at midfield throwing short passes that may have gotten first downs but didn't work nearly as well in the red zone and clearly didn't score enough.
There's no real way IMO to sugar-coat the numbers I listed. Even if DeBord hadn't retired, I think an overhaul and re-thinking of the offense would've been absolutely critical--regardless of who the starting QB would be going forward.
"watch the Purdue vs Auburn game see how many times Purdue does it in the game"
didn't purdue lose by 80 points? not making a very convincing argument with that
You do NOT have to blow by a defense with speed in order to stretch it. The reason we Hoosiers love our 6-4 receivers is because they can catch contested balls over shorter corners. Like a forward grabbing a rebound over a guard. It's called a 50-50 ball, because it's up for grabs and usually the bigger, taller player gets it.
You don't even have to complete it all the time (50-50). You just need to show a defense you're willing to go deep to keep them honest and keep them from cheating on your short to intermediate routes.
The fact is we got into the Red Zone plenty of times. Problem was finishing drives in the Red Zone. True points win games. The field gets constricted in the Red Zone and not having guys that could get free in there hurt. Also I think we had to lead the the country in offensive interference calls, that call kills you everytime. Also l have said many times I did not like many of short yardage calls. I am not a big fan of power plays in short yardage. Pulling lineman is dangerous. I also did not think Ramsey was very good at reading the option either traditional or read option. So that hurts you. So you have to find other ways to score and we did not. I think having Whop would have helped.
50-50 means you have a 50 percentage chance of catching it and the defense has a 50 percent chance of catching it I think you want to limit those throws and throw higher percentage passes.
I don’t think anyone was really scared of our receivers.
Yes because they were effective doing during the year because their guy(s) were able to catch the ball short and get to the sticks. However Auburn defense was a different beast. They also knew that they had to get the ball out quick to avoid sacks and finally they did not have speed mismatches on the outside.
merely getting into the RZ is not the point; that accomplishes little more than piling up first downs around midfield. The point is to score, which last season's offense didn't do enough of to cover up for the defense's regression, especially in conference games.
So either Allen finds a hidden genius who can devise an offense that scores a lot more often, from all over the field, in about the same amount of time, or he hires someone who can devise an offense that scores somewhat more often, primarily from the RZ, and intrinsically increases its TOP in doing so.
Or, Allen figures out a way to dramatically improve a defense that has given up increasingly more points in B1G play each of the past 3 seasons.
I think the ideal situation is that all of those things improve, hopefully a guy(s) emerge that can turn a 5 yard pass into a huge gain or score preferably. Definitely need Red Efficiency to be MUCH better. Finally the defense needs to make huge improvements.
That I believe we can all agree upon.
I know what CTA is looking for but wouldn’t it be interesting if he would could consider a guy like Mike Leonard has a high scoring offense at Franklin College year in and year out.
Cale Gundy gave Mike Yurcich a chance to come from D2 Edinboro. Rich Fodriguezstarted at Glennville State a D 2. Hal Mumme started at Valdosta.
Just throwing it out there.
If that was true about Ramsey then why didn't Penix do it in the PSU game? Many times, not all the time, Ramsey could have step in the pocket but didn't. If you could go to youTube and break down films you would see what I saw.
Without going back and getting into stats and numbers, if you're going to consistently throw short, dink and dunk passes, you damn well better have a bunch of Whop Philyors on your side. Outside of Whop, who was injured much of the year, our receivers aren't really that type of player.
Guys like Hale, Westbrook and the kid from Mississippi whose name escapes me, are NOT dink and dunk make you miss types. That was the biggest gripe of Debord's two year tenure...he simply did not utilize those people as efficiently as possible.
Westbrook and Hale are masters of the long ball, get a guy in there that can properly get them the long ball....
Oh? Did Penix tell you that personally?
i will but one thing I concentrate on during the game is the o line. I will always be the first to defend the o line. Since that is what I played most of life and what I have coached. But I will rewatch the games. I always do. And I am not saying that he never made mistakes because no one is perfect.
I seem to remember people complaining about how many times we threw the fade in the Red Zone and came up empty because these guys did not make the plays. Fryfogle is the guy you are talking about. Yes these guys are talented kids but they do have limitations. They both missed last year. I am happy to have them back next year but they are both what I would consider possession receivers. We need to get someone on one side that can really go. Hopefully one of the incoming freshman is that guy.
If you want dink and dunk and mid-range routes to result in game breakers you need two things: players who can make people miss and (equally important) and arm on a QB that gets the ball there before the defender gets there. So much is made of our receivers not being able to make big YAC. Watch the games again and tell me if getting the ball to these guys quicker (strong throws) would have helped give them a chance to make something big happen.
masters? i haven't seen hale and westbrook "master" anything
He hasn’t said anything that I’m aware of. It’s obviously speculation, just like the rest of theee post and my opinion. I have only been gone 3 years and still know a lot of people on campus so next time I’m there I might just ask. Prick.
I really think we need to play all 3 in the first 2 games and the best man wins the majority of the time. Forget practice. How do they play in the games.
What about a quarterback that gets rid of the ball quickly?
I am not opposed to a two quarterback rotation. I know a lot of people are opposed I have seen it work at UF. Three I don’t know about that is a serious stretch.
Assumes that all kids nowadays are afraid of competition and are selfish.
Maybe practice narrows it to 2. I'm worried about Penix being 100% in August. Tuttle and Penix have the arm strength and quick release to get rid of the ball and go downfield. We need better speed on the outside. Hopefully some WR's separate themselves. We have big targets. Need Whop to be healthy.
Speculation is OK on here. I just wish people would point it out by adding something like IMHO or something so it is obvious. It is hard enough to figure out the intent people are writing. It helps to make it obvious.
Not really. It's 50% completion vs 50% (Inc, PBU, or Int). Besides, it's about matchups. If your receiver has a height and length advantage, and your QB throws it only where the WR can get it, then it's completed more than not. Now, you won't be able to have any YAC, but our guys aren't speedburners anyway.
I have no problem with a 2 QB system, so long as the QBs bring different things to the game. I. E. A running QB vs a pocket passer. If they are the same player, I say play the one with most upside. I think we've seen the top end of Ramsey.
I really hope we don't go stick with a Dink and Dunk offense. I personally would prefer an offense that stretches the field.
Who do we have that is fast enough to threaten on the outside?