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PSA

Hospice is for anyone with a terminal illness of 6 months or less. They can go on and off the program if warranted. It's 100% covered by medicare. These are benefits we pay for and deserve. Don't hesitate to use them.

We need to get our fiscal house in order and give more tax cuts to millionaires and billionaires. Maybe we can cut this down to 3 months or less instead of 6. We'll reign in spending and, I mean, they're gonna die anyways. What I'm talking about is putting power and choice back in the hands of the American people.
 
We need to get our fiscal house in order and give more tax cuts to millionaires and billionaires. Maybe we can cut this down to 3 months or less instead of 6. We'll reign in spending and, I mean, they're gonna die anyways. What I'm talking about is putting power and choice back in the hands of the American people.
Those dying people are all "takers". We need to be all about the "makers".
 
Those dying people are all "takers". We need to be all about the "makers".

We need to get our fiscal house in order and give more tax cuts to millionaires and billionaires. Maybe we can cut this down to 3 months or less instead of 6. We'll reign in spending and, I mean, they're gonna die anyways. What I'm talking about is putting power and choice back in the hands of the American people.

Even with your stupid snarks, you guys have managed to stumble on to a point worth discussing.* Coincidentally, former governor Dick "duty to die" Lamm is retiring and the Denver Post had a piece about him today.

Pull quote:

As he [Lamm] puts it to me on a recent visit to his Denver home, medical ethics lack lateral vision. “When I look at the literature, and there are such things as $93,000 prostate operations at some stage of prostate cancer that might give two extra months of life, it is outrageous.”

He’s writing a paper with the working title: “Is There a Conflict Between Medical Ethics and Ethical Public Policy?”

“It seems to me that medical ethics drives too much marginal spending,” he says. And that spending is piling on the debt for the next generation, which leads us to another of Lamm’s obsessions.
Seriously, as we seem to be on an irreversible path toward public payment for all health care; all the modulating influences, like insurance contracts and family finances, on the limits of care are morphed into public policy and public budgets. Maybe you think this is a good idea. I have my doubts. In any event, a "duty to die" kind of discussion is necessary and inevitable.

*A blind squirrel . . . . .well you know.
 
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Even with your stupid snarks, you guys have managed to stumble on to a point with discussing.* Coincidentally, former governor Dick "duty to die" Lamm is retiring and the Denver Post had a piece about him today.

Pull quote:

As he [Lamm] puts it to me on a recent visit to his Denver home, medical ethics lack lateral vision. “When I look at the literature, and there are such things as $93,000 prostate operations at some stage of prostate cancer that might give two extra months of life, it is outrageous.”

He’s writing a paper with the working title: “Is There a Conflict Between Medical Ethics and Ethical Public Policy?”

“It seems to me that medical ethics drives too much marginal spending,” he says. And that spending is piling on the debt for the next generation, which leads us to another of Lamm’s obsessions.
Seriously, as we seem to be on an irreversible path toward public payment for all health care; all the modulating influences, like insurance contracts and family finances, on the limits of care are morphed into public policy and public budgets. Maybe you think this is a good idea. I have my doubts. In any event, a "duty to die" kind of discussion is necessary and inevitable.

*A blind squirrel . . . . .well you know.

and just how many actual incremental man hours went into that $93,000 prostrate operation.

perhaps the problem is that it cost $93,000 dollars, not that it occurred.

most agree there is a time to say "when", including the patient themselves and the family.

the example you throw out gives the figure possibly 2 extra months.

what about possibly 2 extra yrs? exactly where should we cut things off?

the insanity isn't that we fight to the end. it's the out of control costs of the fight, with no market forces, or regulatory forces that should kick in when there are no market forces, to contain pricing that is at the will of the providers.

but alas, we keep having this absurd debate over a problem that we already have been given the answer to.

how disgraceful, that the entire purpose of perpetually prolonging this debate, is to perpetually evade implementing the known answer, rather than to find one.
 
Seriously, as we seem to be on an irreversible path toward public payment for all health care; all the modulating influences, like insurance contracts and family finances, on the limits of care are morphed into public policy and public budgets.
Interesting that you couch the "moderating (surely you meant that instead of modulating) influences" in purely financial terms. Once again, it all boils down to who can afford the care.

I'm fully on board with limiting the amount of care and extraordinary measures taken at the end of life merely to increase the length of life without regard to cost and quality. But I sure as hell don't know how that would work in practice. Rationing? Death panels? Too bad those terms have become politicized to the point they can't even be discussed.
 
I started this thread and will end it. My Dad died. It was prolonged Alzheimzer's. We waited too long for hospice. That's it. COH I wish you no harm. Goat or mods delete this thread. Thanks.
 
I started this thread and will end it. My Dad died. It was prolonged Alzheimzer's. We waited too long for hospice. That's it.
Sorry to hear it. My dad stroked and getting him into hospice care was delayed as well due to my mom's inability to face reality. My dad suffered longer than he should have. We do the best we can.
 
I started this thread and will end it. My Dad died. It was prolonged Alzheimzer's. We waited too long for hospice. That's it. COH I wish you no harm. Goat or mods delete this thread. Thanks.

I've been in practice 33 years. My clients are growing old with me. The absolute most painful thing to watch is families with a member suffering from Alzheimer's. My heart goes out to you and your family's fight with this awful disease.
 
Interesting that you couch the "moderating (surely you meant that instead of modulating) influences" in purely financial terms. Once again, it all boils down to who can afford the care.

I'm fully on board with limiting the amount of care and extraordinary measures taken at the end of life merely to increase the length of life without regard to cost and quality. But I sure as hell don't know how that would work in practice. Rationing? Death panels? Too bad those terms have become politicized to the point they can't even be discussed.

Yes, modulating. Thanks for the catch.
 
I started this thread and will end it. My Dad died. It was prolonged Alzheimzer's. We waited too long for hospice. That's it. COH I wish you no harm. Goat or mods delete this thread. Thanks.

Sorry for that ordeal. My dad died in the days when there was no hospice. It took a while. Within a year after that, there was a push to start a hospice where I lived. I donated services to get it going and served on the board for many years. I know the value of hospice and the comfort it gives the patients and families.
 
I started this thread and will end it. My Dad died. It was prolonged Alzheimzer's. We waited too long for hospice. That's it. COH I wish you no harm. Goat or mods delete this thread. Thanks.
TFO was Director of Hospice services for the VNA for a number of years. Your story happens all to often. Doctors wait to refer to hospice, and caregivers wait to take advantage of the service. Many view it as a decision to die rather than as a recognition that it is going to happen.
 
Many view it as a decision to die rather than as a recognition that it is going to happen.
Until such time as the decision to die is viewed as something to be embraced instead of shunned, needless suffering -- and expense -- will be the rule.
 
I started this thread and will end it. My Dad died. It was prolonged Alzheimzer's. We waited too long for hospice. That's it. COH I wish you no harm. Goat or mods delete this thread. Thanks.


So very sorry to hear of your loss. Hang in there sir, my thoughts will be with you.
 
Sorry to hear it. My dad stroked and getting him into hospice care was delayed as well due to my mom's inability to face reality. My dad suffered longer than he should have. We do the best we can.
Well that is something hard to face. My wife just recently had to make that decision and like you she probably waited too long.
 
Well that is something hard to face. My wife just recently had to make that decision and like you she probably waited too long.

they idea of waiting the exact right amount of time is probably not realistic most of the time, so that leaves losing hope too soon, or waiting too long.

waiting too long is probably the most human, and the better of the no win options in such a scenario.

most would much rather feel they waited too long, than the other option.

on that same note, we will probably always play out medical care options even when things look less than hopeful.

we should see this as a good thing, not a fault.
 
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Well that is something hard to face. My wife just recently had to make that decision and like you she probably waited too long.

It is hard to make logical and rational decisions when the life of a loved one is the question.

Sorry for your loss Max.
 
I started this thread and will end it. My Dad died. It was prolonged Alzheimzer's. We waited too long for hospice. That's it. COH I wish you no harm. Goat or mods delete this thread. Thanks.

So sorry for your loss. Thoughts and prayers to you and your family.
 
Last August, my dad died in the back of an ambulance on his way to hospice. I wish i had had just one more day with him while he was in hospice.
 
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I started this thread and will end it. My Dad died. It was prolonged Alzheimzer's. We waited too long for hospice. That's it. COH I wish you no harm. Goat or mods delete this thread. Thanks.
Sorry for your loss, my Dad died of dementia, luckily he was at home where he wanted to be.
 
Sorry for your loss, my Dad died of dementia, luckily he was at home where he wanted to be.
My mom died with dementia, but not from it. It made her last years needlessly difficult for all concerned, and for her most of all. At the end she was a vacant shell.

We've gotten to the point where too often our bodies outlive our minds.
 
I started this thread and will end it. My Dad died. It was prolonged Alzheimzer's. We waited too long for hospice. That's it. COH I wish you no harm. Goat or mods delete this thread. Thanks.
I am so sorry that's terrible.
 
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