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Police have to be better

Would have thought this narrative would have been corrected by now.

The kid tossed the gun, turned put up his hands and was shot within less than one second. This was a reasonable use of force with a tragic outcome for a young man that badly needed a good parent or guardian to guide him.

many will use the still photo of his hands up to further their anti police narrative.
Even Don Lemon on CNN defended the cop.
 
This is just heartbreaking. Police have to, on aggregate, get better. The video shows the kid keeping his hands up and the freaked out cop just blasted him center mass. Don’t watch it.

We have a right to liberty. Cops do not have a right to deny it he right.


So the video I watched wasn’t from a good enough angle to see that the kid barely dropped the weapon in time while spinning around. I retract my criticism of this one.

I was wrong on this one.
 
Sadly I think that is the reason a lot of people become police officers. They like the power they have. Having said that there are a lot of good ones out there so the question is how to separate the power hungry from those that really want to serve the community.

Long ago I worked with a lot of off-duty police (they moonlighted as security which was part of my job). One was clearly in it for the power, he flat out told me the reason he became a cop was that as an officer people HAD to respect him. None of the officers I worked with liked him. They would just roll their eyes and shake their head when stories of him came up. I do think it is a minority of officers, but sadly they exist.
 
So the video I watched wasn’t from a good enough angle to see that the kid barely dropped the weapon in time while spinning around. I retract my criticism of this one.

I was wrong on this one.
I don't know, man. You might be second-guessing yourself because of facts known from outside the video - that is, that the kid had a gun he had just recently dumped. Just from the video itself, I see a cop saying "show me your hands right now," and then the kid turn and raise his hands, and get shot while doing it.

That doesn't mean this was a bad shooting. But I think your original thought that police need to be "better" is still more than justified as a response to this. The kid was shot in the very moment that he was in the process of following instructions. He hadn't been up until that point, of course, but at that moment, he was. If the price for following law enforcement instructions is getting shot to death, then I'm not sure a solution to this problem is even possible.
 
I don't know, man. You might be second-guessing yourself because of facts known from outside the video - that is, that the kid had a gun he had just recently dumped. Just from the video itself, I see a cop saying "show me your hands right now," and then the kid turn and raise his hands, and get shot while doing it.

That doesn't mean this was a bad shooting. But I think your original thought that police need to be "better" is still more than justified as a response to this. The kid was shot in the very moment that he was in the process of following instructions. He hadn't been up until that point, of course, but at that moment, he was. If the price for following law enforcement instructions is getting shot to death, then I'm not sure a solution to this problem is even possible.
“Following law enforcement instructions”...

Leading a cop on a foot chase through an alley while holding a gun in your waist band then stopping to drop it and immediately turning around is not really following instructions. The cop saw the gun in his right hand and yelled “drop it.”

If you’re running on foot chase with a visible gun and you spin around in .8 seconds without making it obvious you dropped the gun, it’s going to be trouble. Especially if it’s a known gang area at 3am and the cops showed up in response to 8 rounds being fired at a passing car a few minutes prior.

Context matters when deducing split second decisions. Media, etc, want to show a still photo with his hands up to stoke the F the police crowd so they can conflate all the madness going on in MN, etc. It’s lazy.

Terrible situation for everyone involved. The 21 year old leading a 13 year old kid on an obvious gang initiation at 3am is the real villain here.
 
I don't know, man. You might be second-guessing yourself because of facts known from outside the video - that is, that the kid had a gun he had just recently dumped. Just from the video itself, I see a cop saying "show me your hands right now," and then the kid turn and raise his hands, and get shot while doing it.

That doesn't mean this was a bad shooting. But I think your original thought that police need to be "better" is still more than justified as a response to this. The kid was shot in the very moment that he was in the process of following instructions. He hadn't been up until that point, of course, but at that moment, he was. If the price for following law enforcement instructions is getting shot to death, then I'm not sure a solution to this problem is even possible.
I think Vid says it better than I can. The kid should’ve visibly dropped the gun while running and turned around as slowly as possible. But he’s a kid in a hopeless situation and now a cop’s life is probably ruined (at least emotionally) because of the terrible Chicago environment.
 
“Following law enforcement instructions”...

Leading a cop on a foot chase through an alley while holding a gun in your waist band then stopping to drop it and immediately turning around is not really following instructions. The cop saw the gun in his right hand and yelled “drop it.”

If you’re running on foot chase with a visible gun and you spin around in .8 seconds without making it obvious you dropped the gun, it’s going to be trouble. Especially if it’s a known gang area at 3am and the cops showed up in response to 8 rounds being fired at a passing car a few minutes prior.

Context matters when deducing split second decisions. Media, etc, want to show a still photo with his hands up to stoke the F the police crowd so they can conflate all the madness going on in MN, etc. It’s lazy.

Terrible situation for everyone involved. The 21 year old leading a 13 year old kid on an obvious gang initiation at 3am is the real villain here.
It did happen very quickly, which is why I was careful to point out that I was not saying it was a bad shooting. I'm just saying, if a guy is running from the cops, and the cop orders him to stop and turn and put up his hands, don't we want him to do that? Well, Adam Toledo did that. Obviously, he saw an opportunity to toss his gun first, and being a 13-yeard old, probably didn't consider that the cops would absolutely find the gun in about 20 seconds, anyway, but regardless, he made a decision to (finally) follow the cops instructions, and that's when he was shot.
 
I think Vid says it better than I can. The kid should’ve visibly dropped the gun while running and turned around as slowly as possible. But he’s a kid in a hopeless situation and now a cop’s life is probably ruined (at least emotionally) because of the terrible Chicago environment.
Obviously, that's what he should have done. And if he wasn't just a 13-year old kid, he very well might have.

If the cop honestly thought the kid was still armed when he turned and raised his arms, then that's what it is, and he probably shouldn't be charged or reprimanded for it. It's just one of those tragedies that happens. All I'm saying is that we need to not kill people who follow instructions. There could be all sorts of very valid reasons why we didn't live up to that in this particular situation, but it still needs to be the goal 100% of the time.
 
Obviously, that's what he should have done. And if he wasn't just a 13-year old kid, he very well might have.

If the cop honestly thought the kid was still armed when he turned and raised his arms, then that's what it is, and he probably shouldn't be charged or reprimanded for it. It's just one of those tragedies that happens. All I'm saying is that we need to not kill people who follow instructions. There could be all sorts of very valid reasons why we didn't live up to that in this particular situation, but it still needs to be the goal 100% of the time.
I have to believe that the cop thought the kid was still armed. He hit the kid center mass which means he was acutely trained on the kid. Perhaps even to the detriment of not being able to see his hands.

Truth be told, I would hypothesize that you have a very low chance of not being shot when you’re running from the cops with a gun in your hand.
 
“Following law enforcement instructions”...

Leading a cop on a foot chase through an alley while holding a gun in your waist band then stopping to drop it and immediately turning around is not really following instructions. The cop saw the gun in his right hand and yelled “drop it.”

If you’re running on foot chase with a visible gun and you spin around in .8 seconds without making it obvious you dropped the gun, it’s going to be trouble. Especially if it’s a known gang area at 3am and the cops showed up in response to 8 rounds being fired at a passing car a few minutes prior.

Context matters when deducing split second decisions. Media, etc, want to show a still photo with his hands up to stoke the F the police crowd so they can conflate all the madness going on in MN, etc. It’s lazy.

Terrible situation for everyone involved. The 21 year old leading a 13 year old kid on an obvious gang initiation at 3am is the real villain here.
Good post. 13 yr old sounds terrible but 13, 14, 15 that’s the age of gang members. That’s what cops see. It’s tragic
 
Truth be told, I would hypothesize that you have a very low chance of not being shot when you’re running from the cops with a gun in your hand.
You might be right, but if that's the case, we either need to find a way to change that, or we need to give up the "Stop and put your hands up!" nonsense. If the kid's fate was sealed when he ran, then the cops need to be yelling, "You better run fast, because you're dead if I catch you."
 
Good post. 13 yr old sounds terrible but 13, 14, 15 that’s the age of gang members. That’s what cops see. It’s tragic
People can’t imagine what we ask cops to do in these parts of the country. It’s unthinkable tragedy every day for them. This wasn’t a good shoot but it was the realistic outcome of it all. The reality is that these neighborhoods need to be fixed, and it’s not the cops’ job to fix it.
 
You might be right, but if that's the case, we either need to find a way to change that, or we need to give up the "Stop and put your hands up!" nonsense. If the kid's fate was sealed when he ran, then the cops need to be yelling, "You better run fast, because you're dead if I catch you."
To be fair, if this was a gang initiation, the kid’s fate was already sealed - the timing would’ve just differed.
 
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It did happen very quickly, which is why I was careful to point out that I was not saying it was a bad shooting. I'm just saying, if a guy is running from the cops, and the cop orders him to stop and turn and put up his hands, don't we want him to do that? Well, Adam Toledo did that. Obviously, he saw an opportunity to toss his gun first, and being a 13-yeard old, probably didn't consider that the cops would absolutely find the gun in about 20 seconds, anyway, but regardless, he made a decision to (finally) follow the cops instructions, and that's when he was shot.
“Show me your f’n hands” means show me your hands. It does not mean pull a gun from your waist band, flip it behind a fence, then spin around in a sudden motion to show me your hands.

I disagree with the idea that he followed instructions.
 
People can’t imagine what we ask cops to do in these parts of the country. It’s unthinkable tragedy every day for them. This wasn’t a good shoot but it was the realistic outcome of it all. The reality is that these neighborhoods need to be fixed, and it’s not the cops’ job to fix it.
Correct. These cops eat doughnuts, pizza, sit in their car, play games on their phone and do next to nothing 39 hours and 50 minutes a week (tho they are sleepy from working secondary at the bars) then they are abruptly thrown into a tornado and asked to make a perfect split second decision at 3:00 in the morning when they are scared shitless...year after year after year. 800,000 cops. 50 million contacts.
 
“Show me your f’n hands” means show me your hands. It does not mean pull a gun from your waist band, flip it behind a fence, then spin around in a sudden motion to show me your hands.

I disagree with the idea that he followed instructions.
Disagree or not, what you think doesn't really matter. What matters is, did Adam Toledo think he was following instructions? Will people in Adam's community think he was following instructions? We often hear the law-and-order folks saying, "Just cooperate with the police, and everything will be fine," to which the black community responds, "We're scared to cooperate with the police, because we might get shot, anyway." That latter sentiment desperately needs to change, and I don't see this particular shooting helping do that.
 
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Disagree or not, what you think doesn't really matter. What matters is, did Adam Toledo think he was following instructions? Will people in Adam's community think he was following instructions? We often hear the law-and-order folks saying, "Just cooperate with the police, and everything will be fine," to which the black community responds, "We're scared to cooperate with the police, because we might get shot, anyway." That latter sentiment desperately needs to change, and I don't see this particular shooting helping do that.
You’re failing to account for the circumstances/conditions. This wasn’t noon outside of Starbucks. The cop’s perspective carries the day.

Super sad. A 13 year old is so far from being mentally developed.
 
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You’re failing to account for the circumstances/conditions. This wasn’t noon outside of Starbucks. The cop’s perspective carries the day.

Super sad. A 13 year old is so far from being mentally developed.
I'm not failing to account for anything. I don't care if it happened just outside the Gates of Hell. I'll eat me shoe if the black community says, "Yeah, this was justified. NBD."
 
I'm not failing to account for anything. I don't care if it happened just outside the Gates of Hell. I'll eat me shoe if the black community says, "Yeah, this was justified. NBD."
And that’s a shame but it doesn’t alter reality. Time and place matter. If you’re running at 3 am in known gang territory with a gun the time to comply is over. You’re halfway to committing suicide by cop. If the black community can’t understand same then we all have a problem. It’s common sense. No cop is going to count three Mississippi’s. It’s unreasonable to take that risk. He’s shooting
 
I mentioned this in another thread but I’m getting more and more livid about this shooting and the response. Why aren’t his parent(s) going to face charges for his death. I honestly don’t know but is there some avenue for this to happen? I can see where Goat is coming from but if you’re a cop chasing a suspect with a gun and the suspect stops (yes on your command) and spins around what do you do. Take one in the chest to make sure you don’t have a bad shoot? I wouldn’t.

This kids parents failed him. They should be held responsible. His death, while tragic, was entirely preventable.
 
I mentioned this in another thread but I’m getting more and more livid about this shooting and the response. Why aren’t his parent(s) going to face charges for his death. I honestly don’t know but is there some avenue for this to happen? I can see where Goat is coming from but if you’re a cop chasing a suspect with a gun and the suspect stops (yes on your command) and spins around what do you do. Take one in the chest to make sure you don’t have a bad shoot? I wouldn’t.

This kids parents failed him. They should be held responsible. His death, while tragic, was entirely preventable.
Agreed on all fronts. There are parental liability laws. I don’t really know much about them
 
Obviously, that's what he should have done. And if he wasn't just a 13-year old kid, he very well might have.

If the cop honestly thought the kid was still armed when he turned and raised his arms, then that's what it is, and he probably shouldn't be charged or reprimanded for it. It's just one of those tragedies that happens. All I'm saying is that we need to not kill people who follow instructions. There could be all sorts of very valid reasons why we didn't live up to that in this particular situation, but it still needs to be the goal 100% of the time.
I wonder how you would have handled the situation if you were the cop? its easy to 2nd guess a cop in this situation, if someone runs from me and I know there armed and have been shooting at cars I'm going to be pretty trigger happy, if the cop spends a day in jail I hope the kids dumbass mother is locked up in the cell next to him
 
Parents are liable when their kid breaks a neighbor's window. Don't think they're liable if their kid gets killed in a confrontation with law enforcement. But IANAL, so ICBW.
I get what you’re saying and under normal (what is normal anymore?) circumstances the child’s death would be punishment enough. Probably way more than enough. However this family will undoubtedly receive a settlement from the city of Chicago. What message does this send?
 
However this family will undoubtedly receive a settlement from the city of Chicago. What message does this send?
I know you're not saying it incentivizes parents to have their kids join gangs and get killed, but I'm at a loss as to what you ARE saying.
 
I get what you’re saying and under normal (what is normal anymore?) circumstances the child’s death would be punishment enough. Probably way more than enough. However this family will undoubtedly receive a settlement from the city of Chicago. What message does this send?
I don't think this one will be payed off, is the kid black?
 
And that’s a shame but it doesn’t alter reality. Time and place matter. If you’re running at 3 am in known gang territory with a gun the time to comply is over. You’re halfway to committing suicide by cop. If the black community can’t understand same then we all have a problem. It’s common sense. No cop is going to count three Mississippi’s. It’s unreasonable to take that risk. He’s shooting
I feel you are responding to something I wasn't talking about. I'm not saying this was a bad shoot. I don't know how many times I have to say that; it's been several already. I'm saying that, whatever else was going on, the kid was shot while in the act of complying with police, and that's something that has to change.
 
I wonder how you would have handled the situation if you were the cop? its easy to 2nd guess a cop in this situation, if someone runs from me and I know there armed and have been shooting at cars I'm going to be pretty trigger happy, if the cop spends a day in jail I hope the kids dumbass mother is locked up in the cell next to him
FFS, I'm NOT SECOND-GUESSING THE GODDAMN COP. Can you people f*cking read or not?
 
I feel you are responding to something I wasn't talking about. I'm not saying this was a bad shoot. I don't know how many times I have to say that; it's been several already. I'm saying that, whatever else was going on, the kid was shot while in the act of complying with police, and that's something that has to change.
How does that change? By saying that you’re still ignoring the circumstances of how he was in the act of “complying with the police.” That will never change at 3 am running with a gun. It defies reality. The cop won’t wait, and probably shouldn’t.
 
FFS, I'm NOT SECOND-GUESSING THE GODDAMN COP. Can you people f*cking read or not?
calm down dude just trying to have a discussion . if your going with the narrative the kid complied , he obviously didn't when he took off running. as far as that's what blacks say they comply and still get shot, of course they say that. they also say what wonderful young men the person who got shot was which is invariably not true. the only case out of all the shootings of black young men that their own actions didn't in part lead to there death, is the jogger in Atlanta, that guy was murdered by redneck vigilantes not cops.
 
I know you're not saying it incentivizes parents to have their kids join gangs and get killed, but I'm at a loss as to what you ARE saying.
To be honest I don’t know what I’m saying. Im certainly not saying it incentivizes people to have their kids killed or join gangs. I guess I’m trying to understand why the parents aren’t being called into question like the cops are. Hell they are questioning this child more than the parents. This kid not even above the age of reason in nearly every state.

I’m just incredibly frustrated by the whole situation as I sit here and stare at my daughter. Certainly I’m protecting her right? Certainly I haven’t made some egregious mistake in her upbringing. She’d never find herself in this situation. Right? But what would happen? Cops are now dealing with freaking 13 y/o’s running the streets at night with guns. How will they react in the next contact of a similar vein. What if it’s, god forbid, my daughter or one of my nephews and they don’t even have a gun but react to the cop in a similar manner. Will the cop shoot?

Apologies if my prior comment came off awkward or seeming to show some kind weird vibe. I’m just to wrap my head around this one.
 
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How does that change? By saying that you’re still ignoring the circumstances of how he was in the act of “complying with the police.” That will never change at 3 am running with a gun. It defies reality. The cop won’t wait, and probably shouldn’t.
I'm not ignoring them at all. I've already been over this twice above.

I don't know how it changes. I just know that it needs to. It might be that we can't change the reality on the ground, and we must find a way to change the perception. But we have to change something. The black community (among others) already feel like a police interaction is a lose-lose situation because compliance doesn't guarantee safety. That cannot continue to be true.
 
calm down dude just trying to have a discussion . if your going with the narrative the kid complied , he obviously didn't when he took off running. as far as that's what blacks say they comply and still get shot, of course they say that. they also say what wonderful young men the person who got shot was which is invariably not true. the only case out of all the shootings of black young men that their own actions didn't in part lead to there death, is the jogger in Atlanta, that guy was murdered by redneck vigilantes not cops.
Read my posts more carefully. I responded to this before you even typed it.
 
I'm not ignoring them at all. I've already been over this twice above.

I don't know how it changes. I just know that it needs to. It might be that we can't change the reality on the ground, and we must find a way to change the perception. But we have to change something. The black community (among others) already feel like a police interaction is a lose-lose situation because compliance doesn't guarantee safety. That cannot continue to be true.
The likelihood of compliance guaranteeing safety depends on the circumstances. noon at starbucks. pretty good chance. 3 am in a gang hood, very little chance. if the black community can't understand that it's too bad. that's probably another area where their leaders are failing, along with common sense
 
The likelihood of compliance guaranteeing safety depends on the circumstances. noon at starbucks. pretty good chance. 3 am in a gang hood, very little chance. if the black community can't understand that it's too bad. that's probably another area where their leaders are failing, along with common sense
Sorry, but I'm not comfortable responding to an issue that is contributing to the growing tears in the fabric of our society with "it's too bad." We have a problem, we need to find a solution.
 
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Sorry, but I'm not comfortable responding to an issue that is contributing to the growing tears in the fabric of our society with "it's too bad." We have a problem, we need to find a solution.
Here’s the problem with this shooting. The cop likely isn’t responsible for this child’s death. The child cannot be responsible for his death. He’s 13. The solution is better parenting or the resources to not let this child down. I have no idea how to make that happen. But it’s worth a hell of a lot more debate than it currently gets.
 
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Sorry, but I'm not comfortable responding to an issue that is contributing to the growing tears in the fabric of our society with "it's too bad." We have a problem, we need to find a solution.
it is sad. particularly when a 13 year old really isn't old enough to know much. the solution isn't a mystery - and it's not with cops
 
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