Point Guards, Wings & Bigs

[Fred C. Dobbs]

Everyone who has watched IU basketball thus far has seen 3 point guards, 5 wings and 5 bigs. Note: Some players cross positions. Considerig point guards and wings as a group and bigs as a group, what combinations therein play best?

Here is a novel idea. Look at the +/- for each combination. Given the competition we've played, look at the +/- for first halves. Ask the question is there any reason the combination with the best +/- shouldn't start or get major minutes.

I welcome the response of all the naysayers that will tell this board that +/- is too dependent on the quality of all 10 players on the court and game status. My answer to you is that the collective world of hockey and a partial world of basketball says you are dead wrong.

Please note that I do not suggest that the +/- for each player be considered. I'm offering up the +/- for each group, as defined in the first paragraph.

If the game, enter time, exit time and +/- for each player is recorded electronically, then calculating group +/- is a trivial computer exercise. I should also point out that I have no idea whether IU and other schools already track this stat.

If you were a betting person, which group would you select with the best +/-. My bet would be the following:
Point guards-Wings: Phinisee, Durham, Smith
Bigs: TJD, Brunk

 

[Hatchets7times]

+ - = junk..
It doesn't even work in the NBA..
I'll take the eye test over it..

 

[VanPastorMan]

Everyone who has watched IU basketball thus far has seen 3 point guards, 5 wings and 5 bigs. Note: Some players cross positions. Considerig point guards and wings as a group and bigs as a group, what combinations therein play best?

Here is a novel idea. Look at the +/- for each combination. Given the competition we've played, look at the +/- for first halves. Ask the question is there any reason the combination with the best +/- shouldn't start or get major minutes.

I welcome the response of all the naysayers that will tell this board that +/- is too dependent on the quality of all 10 players on the court and game status. My answer to you is that the collective world of hockey and a partial world of basketball says you are dead wrong.

Please note that I do not suggest that the +/- for each player be considered. I'm offering up the +/- for each group, as defined in the first paragraph.

If the game, enter time, exit time and +/- for each player is recorded electronically, then calculating group +/- is a trivial computer exercise. I should also point out that I have no idea whether IU and other schools already track this stat.

If you were a betting person, which group would you select with the best +/-. My bet would be the following:
Point guards-Wings: Phinisee, Durham, Smith
Bigs: TJD, Brunk

I think this team has the chance to be very deep. Deron can not play huge minutes, so it's good that he won't have to. If we can stay healthy this team has a good chance to succeed.

 

[Jssanto]

I think depth is our best strength. No super star, but many choices for match ups, rest, injuries, etc.

 

[T.M.P.]

Everyone who has watched IU basketball thus far has seen 3 point guards, 5 wings and 5 bigs. Note: Some players cross positions. Considerig point guards and wings as a group and bigs as a group, what combinations therein play best?

Here is a novel idea. Look at the +/- for each combination. Given the competition we've played, look at the +/- for first halves. Ask the question is there any reason the combination with the best +/- shouldn't start or get major minutes.

I welcome the response of all the naysayers that will tell this board that +/- is too dependent on the quality of all 10 players on the court and game status. My answer to you is that the collective world of hockey and a partial world of basketball says you are dead wrong.

Please note that I do not suggest that the +/- for each player be considered. I'm offering up the +/- for each group, as defined in the first paragraph.

If the game, enter time, exit time and +/- for each player is recorded electronically, then calculating group +/- is a trivial computer exercise. I should also point out that I have no idea whether IU and other schools already track this stat.

If you were a betting person, which group would you select with the best +/-. My bet would be the following:
Point guards-Wings: Phinisee, Durham, Smith
Bigs: TJD, Brunk

ugh, yea .. ... the collective world of hockey is now the arbiter of the validity of statistical metrics? lmao..

Though you are actually using it in a better manner than most, it's still a useless stat unless you back it with other things and know what the lineups were doing vs what the opponent was doing .. ie vs zone, vs a press, vs m2m, vs aggressive trapping .. etc The worst part is you're ultimately making a guess which is the very thing these stats are used to avoid.


..

 

[gmhowes]

Everyone who has watched IU basketball thus far has seen 3 point guards, 5 wings and 5 bigs. Note: Some players cross positions. Considerig point guards and wings as a group and bigs as a group, what combinations therein play best?

Here is a novel idea. Look at the +/- for each combination. Given the competition we've played, look at the +/- for first halves. Ask the question is there any reason the combination with the best +/- shouldn't start or get major minutes.

I welcome the response of all the naysayers that will tell this board that +/- is too dependent on the quality of all 10 players on the court and game status. My answer to you is that the collective world of hockey and a partial world of basketball says you are dead wrong.

Please note that I do not suggest that the +/- for each player be considered. I'm offering up the +/- for each group, as defined in the first paragraph.

If the game, enter time, exit time and +/- for each player is recorded electronically, then calculating group +/- is a trivial computer exercise. I should also point out that I have no idea whether IU and other schools already track this stat.

If you were a betting person, which group would you select with the best +/-. My bet would be the following:
Point guards-Wings: Phinisee, Durham, Smith
Bigs: TJD, Brunk

Brave call

 

[iubud]

Everyone who has watched IU basketball thus far has seen 3 point guards, 5 wings and 5 bigs. Note: Some players cross positions. Considerig point guards and wings as a group and bigs as a group, what combinations therein play best?

Here is a novel idea. Look at the +/- for each combination. Given the competition we've played, look at the +/- for first halves. Ask the question is there any reason the combination with the best +/- shouldn't start or get major minutes.

I welcome the response of all the naysayers that will tell this board that +/- is too dependent on the quality of all 10 players on the court and game status. My answer to you is that the collective world of hockey and a partial world of basketball says you are dead wrong.

Please note that I do not suggest that the +/- for each player be considered. I'm offering up the +/- for each group, as defined in the first paragraph.

If the game, enter time, exit time and +/- for each player is recorded electronically, then calculating group +/- is a trivial computer exercise. I should also point out that I have no idea whether IU and other schools already track this stat.

If you were a betting person, which group would you select with the best +/-. My bet would be the following:
Point guards-Wings: Phinisee, Durham, Smith
Bigs: TJD, Brunk

A +/- that tries to compare different lineups would need the defense to cooperate and use a comparable lineup and play a similar defense against all the lineups. A coach can only have that much control in practice. Practice isn't the same as a game, so you still aren't getting a definitive answer.

I would pay attention to how different units play together. That can mean whatever you want from how they move the ball to how they communicate on defense.

 

[wi_hoosier]

Everyone who has watched IU basketball thus far has seen 3 point guards, 5 wings and 5 bigs. Note: Some players cross positions. Considerig point guards and wings as a group and bigs as a group, what combinations therein play best?

Here is a novel idea. Look at the +/- for each combination. Given the competition we've played, look at the +/- for first halves. Ask the question is there any reason the combination with the best +/- shouldn't start or get major minutes.

I welcome the response of all the naysayers that will tell this board that +/- is too dependent on the quality of all 10 players on the court and game status. My answer to you is that the collective world of hockey and a partial world of basketball says you are dead wrong.

Please note that I do not suggest that the +/- for each player be considered. I'm offering up the +/- for each group, as defined in the first paragraph.

If the game, enter time, exit time and +/- for each player is recorded electronically, then calculating group +/- is a trivial computer exercise. I should also point out that I have no idea whether IU and other schools already track this stat.

If you were a betting person, which group would you select with the best +/-. My bet would be the following:
Point guards-Wings: Phinisee, Durham, Smith
Bigs: TJD, Brunk

I admittedly do not pay any attention to the +/- stat, so please forgive my question or not understanding;

Is the +/- of a group effected by the 5 players on the opposite side? Is it just about the players when they are together?

My ask is because what if the starting 5s match up produces a -3, but the next 5 produces a +10. Where if you reverse it, the next 5 starting produces a -15 and the starting 5 going against the next opponents 5 produces a +15??? Seems like the net gain on the first scenario is better. And, why it's more about match-ups. But as I said, I may not understand how the whole +/- thing works.

 

[travlinhoosier]

Well you could use +\- per minute averaged over some appropriate games; I’m not advocating it but it might do what you want.

 

[.Gerdis]

One thing to consider is the competition. If lineup A is +5 versus Troy and lineup B is -10 versus Troy, what does that say about the expected +/- of either group versus Purdue, MSU, or Princeton? I would assume that the answer is nothing. Even if looked at with a greater input of data (games), competition, game situation, and other variables aren't even being considered. What does it matter how lineup C did in a 40 point home blowout, for example.

 

[TommyCracker]

There is no perfectly non flawed stat. It can be argued that all basketball stats are junk because there is no perfect control group.

In general +/- is highly subjective at an individual level. It's a much better stat when you use it for lineup combinations.

There's still a large margin of error but at least you eliminate the Michael Jordan argument and start looking at what five plays the best for Jordan.

It's also a stat that will give credit to defensive players...like when it starting popping out that lineups with Anuoby back in the day had stronger plus minuses than without, even though OG wasn't doing much offensive scoring.

I remember Stevens making the case for Nored in that while he looked statistically average, the play of those around him we're really impacted.

So yeah, hockey lineup stats are the bees knees and plus/minus can point out some good trends when looked at from that perspective, especially when you have a big set of examples (which we don't).