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Penix: A Tough Decision

daddyhoosier

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Aug 31, 2019
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I, like most of us, have been wowed by some of the things we've seen Michael Penix Jr. do over the last few seasons. That lefty flick of the wrist, when it's 'on', is a true thing of beauty to behold. I am pulling for Penix to succeed as much as anybody and obviously the injury setbacks he has suffered are gut-wrenching and even seem unfair. But I feel an honest assessment of the situation is in order.

A couple of years back it was Penix v Ramsey. Many in the pro-Penix crowd made it seem like Penix was waaaay better than Peyton Ramsey right from the get-go. I tried not to pit one against the other, I always tried to take the approach of doing what was best overall for Indiana Football. And I genuinely liked and like both Penix and Ramsey. That said, I knew inevitably one of them had to be the odd man out. That's just the way it is in competitive sports.

My position was that yes clearly Penix had superior ability when compared to Ramsey but in terms of actual production that gap wasn't really as great as maybe some made it out to be. What Peyton lacked in physical ability he made up for with experience and moxy. From the perspective of Indiana Football it was a great position to be in - two solid Big Ten quarterbacks. Peyton had the edge in terms of command and consistency but Penix was more explosive. I ultimately agreed with the decision to start Penix but cautioned there would be growing pains. Penix wasn't going to come in and win the Heisman. In hindsight I feel my assessment was accurate. In his career (Northwestern included), Ramsey threw for 8,314 yards and 54 touchdowns. That's pretty noteworthy. You'll never convince me that those who were eager to throw Peyton Ramsey under the bus weren't underestimating the kid significantly.

Then last year Indiana went on that magical run. Amid the excitement and jubilation I think some of Penix's sloppiness and fundemental breakdowns were being overlooked because Indiana was beating Penn State, Michigan and Michigan State and giving College Football Playoff contender Ohio State all they could handle. It's hard to blame fans for not wanting to get bogged down in the minutia of elite quarterback play but for Penix the footwork issues were there, accuracy was dropping off, and at times it seemed like Penix had his mind made up where he was going with the ball before it was snapped. I and a few others mentioned some of these things but it mostly got lost in the shuffle amid the drama and elation of being ranked 7th in the country and a legitimate part of the New Year's Six discussion.

This past off season and going into Fall Camp the emphasis and discussion was rightfully on three straight season-ending injuries. What seemed to get overlooked in the conversation was that it's not just about having to recover physically and the mental implications of that, it's about three straight offseasons without spring ball and the opportunity to develop as a player and student of the game. How could that not put Penix behind the curve developmentally? That's thousands of reps that he never got in. That's muscle memory and reaction time that never got downloaded. And on top of that Penix has to deal with the psychology of three major injuries in live game action.

And so now here were are, I don't think it's unfair to wonder if Penix should even be the starter going forward. His play has been so poor through three games that you could even argue that it's myopic to not ask the question.

My initial thought was give Penix one more week to get right against Western Kentucky. But then I thought, what if he doesn't play well? What if it's more of the same? Then all the sudden Indiana is potentially throwing a still inexperienced Jack Tuttle into the fray just as the Hoosiers start the Big Ten gauntlet. So you can make the argument that if a move is going to be made at the quarterback position, this is the week to make it.

I'm honestly torn. I'm glad it's not up to me. Right now I'm leaning more towards going with Tuttle. Big time college football can be pretty cutthroat, that's just the nature of the beast. I want Penix to succeed and hope that he ultimately does but the question at this point is what is best for Indiana Football?
 
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I would try Tuttle but with our offensive line and coordinator it may not make a difference. May be able to run against this team however
 
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I wouldn’t go so far as to say “awful.” But his mistakes have caught up with him this year exactly opposite to last year when they never did.

If there was ever a situation where you make a QB change to Tuttle, who showed a good “game manager” ability last year, this is it. The defense is the anchor of the team. A game manager QB will do.
 
I, like most of us, have been wowed by some of the things we've seen Michael Penix Jr. do over the last few seasons. That lefty flick of the wrist, when it's 'on', is a true thing of beauty to behold. I am pulling for Penix to succeed as much as anybody and obviously the injury setbacks he has suffered are gut-wrenching and even seem unfair. But I feel an honest assessment of the situation is in order.

A couple of years back it was Penix v Ramsey. Many in the pro-Penix crowd made it seem like Penix was waaaay better than Peyton Ramsey right from the get-go. I tried not to pit one against the other, I always tried to take the approach of doing what was best overall for Indiana Football. And I genuinely liked and like both Penix and Ramsey. That said, I knew inevitably one of them had to be the odd man out. That's just the way it is in competitive sports.

My position was that yes clearly Penix had superior ability when compared to Ramsey but in terms of actual production that gap wasn't really as great as maybe some made it out to be. What Peyton lacked in physical ability he made up for with experience and moxy. From the perspective of Indiana Football it was a great position to be in - two solid Big Ten quarterbacks. Peyton had the edge in terms of command and consistency but Penix was more explosive. I ultimately agreed with the decision to start Penix but cautioned there would be growing pains. Penix wasn't going to come in and win the Heisman. In hindsight I feel my assessment was accurate. In his career (Northwestern included), Ramsey threw for 8,314 yards and 54 touchdowns. That's pretty noteworthy. You'll never convince me that those who were eager to throw Peyton Ramsey under the bus weren't underestimating the kid significantly.

Then last year Indiana went on that magical run. Amid the excitement and jubilation I think some of Penix's sloppiness and fundemental breakdowns were being overlooked because Indiana was beating Penn State, Michigan and Michigan State and giving College Football Playoff contender Ohio State all they could handle. It's hard to blame fans for not wanting to get bogged down in the minutia of elite quarterback play but for Penix the footwork issues were there, accuracy was dropping off, and at times it seemed like Penix had his mind made up where he was going with the ball before it was snapped. I and a few others mentioned some of these things but it mostly got lost in the shuffle amid the drama and elation of being ranked 7th in the country and a legitimate part of the New Year's Six discussion.

This past off season and going into Fall Camp the emphasis and discussion was rightfully on three straight season-ending injuries. What seemed to get overlooked in the conversation was that it's not just about having to recover physically and the mental implications of that, it's about three straight offseasons without spring ball and the opportunity to develop as a player and student of the game. How could that not put Penix behind the curve developmentally? That's thousands of reps that he never got in. That's muscle memory and reaction time that never got downloaded. And on top of that Penix has to deal with the psychology of three major injuries in live game action.

And so now here were are, I don't think it's unfair to wonder if Penix should even be the starter going forward. His play has been so poor through three games that you could even argue that it's myopic to not ask the question.

My initial thought was give Penix one more week to get right against Western Kentucky. But then I thought, what if he doesn't play well? What if it's more of the same? Then all the sudden Indiana is potentially throwing a still inexperienced Jack Tuttle into the fray just as the Hoosiers start the Big Ten gauntlet. So you can make the argument that if a move is going to be made at the quarterback position, this is the week to make it.

I'm honestly torn. I'm glad it's not up to me. Right now I'm leaning more towards going with Tuttle. Big time college football can be pretty cutthroat, that's just the nature of the beast. I want Penix to succeed and hope that he ultimately does but the question at this point is what is best for Indiana Football?
MP's most recent injury has clearly affected his confidence thus his effectiveness.

Before Ramsey transferred Penix beat him in head to head competition for the starting role, thus the transfer. I don't think that would happen today.
 
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I wouldn’t go so far as to say “awful.” But his mistakes have caught up with him this year exactly opposite to last year when they never did.

If there was ever a situation where you make a QB change to Tuttle, who showed a good “game manager” ability last year, this is it. The defense is the anchor of the team. A game manager QB will do.
we need better game management from our QB

AND the sideline
 
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I, like most of us, have been wowed by some of the things we've seen Michael Penix Jr. do over the last few seasons. That lefty flick of the wrist, when it's 'on', is a true thing of beauty to behold. I am pulling for Penix to succeed as much as anybody and obviously the injury setbacks he has suffered are gut-wrenching and even seem unfair. But I feel an honest assessment of the situation is in order.

A couple of years back it was Penix v Ramsey. Many in the pro-Penix crowd made it seem like Penix was waaaay better than Peyton Ramsey right from the get-go. I tried not to pit one against the other, I always tried to take the approach of doing what was best overall for Indiana Football. And I genuinely liked and like both Penix and Ramsey. That said, I knew inevitably one of them had to be the odd man out. That's just the way it is in competitive sports.

My position was that yes clearly Penix had superior ability when compared to Ramsey but in terms of actual production that gap wasn't really as great as maybe some made it out to be. What Peyton lacked in physical ability he made up for with experience and moxy. From the perspective of Indiana Football it was a great position to be in - two solid Big Ten quarterbacks. Peyton had the edge in terms of command and consistency but Penix was more explosive. I ultimately agreed with the decision to start Penix but cautioned there would be growing pains. Penix wasn't going to come in and win the Heisman. In hindsight I feel my assessment was accurate. In his career (Northwestern included), Ramsey threw for 8,314 yards and 54 touchdowns. That's pretty noteworthy. You'll never convince me that those who were eager to throw Peyton Ramsey under the bus weren't underestimating the kid significantly.

Then last year Indiana went on that magical run. Amid the excitement and jubilation I think some of Penix's sloppiness and fundemental breakdowns were being overlooked because Indiana was beating Penn State, Michigan and Michigan State and giving College Football Playoff contender Ohio State all they could handle. It's hard to blame fans for not wanting to get bogged down in the minutia of elite quarterback play but for Penix the footwork issues were there, accuracy was dropping off, and at times it seemed like Penix had his mind made up where he was going with the ball before it was snapped. I and a few others mentioned some of these things but it mostly got lost in the shuffle amid the drama and elation of being ranked 7th in the country and a legitimate part of the New Year's Six discussion.

This past off season and going into Fall Camp the emphasis and discussion was rightfully on three straight season-ending injuries. What seemed to get overlooked in the conversation was that it's not just about having to recover physically and the mental implications of that, it's about three straight offseasons without spring ball and the opportunity to develop as a player and student of the game. How could that not put Penix behind the curve developmentally? That's thousands of reps that he never got in. That's muscle memory and reaction time that never got downloaded. And on top of that Penix has to deal with the psychology of three major injuries in live game action.

And so now here were are, I don't think it's unfair to wonder if Penix should even be the starter going forward. His play has been so poor through three games that you could even argue that it's myopic to not ask the question.

My initial thought was give Penix one more week to get right against Western Kentucky. But then I thought, what if he doesn't play well? What if it's more of the same? Then all the sudden Indiana is potentially throwing a still inexperienced Jack Tuttle into the fray just as the Hoosiers start the Big Ten gauntlet. So you can make the argument that if a move is going to be made at the quarterback position, this is the week to make it.

I'm honestly torn. I'm glad it's not up to me. Right now I'm leaning more towards going with Tuttle. Big time college football can be pretty cutthroat, that's just the nature of the beast. I want Penix to succeed and hope that he ultimately does but the question at this point is what is best for Indiana Football?
I'm not quite sure why the Ramsey/Penix debate needs to be rehashed now. Penix lost exactly one game - - by seven points - - last year, a game in which he put up 491 yards against a team that played for the national championship. Ramsey wasn't going to top that. In any event, Ramsey had NFL aspirations and it's unlikely he would have been in the mix this season at IU had he not transferred to NW, so I'm not sure what the point is.

Penix is clearly not the same player this year. Maybe he could benefit from a break from football (and, depending on the extent of his injury yesterday, he may have no choice). It's time to give Tuttle and McCulley a shot. After what we've seen in the first three games, I don't think that's a difficult call. Tuttle and McCulley have different skill sets, and McCulley's abilities may better align with what we need to do offensively to compensate for a mediocre (at best) OL. This offense needs a spark, and a dual-threat quarterback may be just the remedy. I'd play them both at Western Kentucky.
 
MP's most recent injury has clearly affected his confidence thus his effectiveness.

Before Ramsey transferred Penix beat him in head to head competition for the starting role, thus the transfer. I don't think that would happen today.
Should question the ability of the head to head evaluator.
 
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I'm not quite sure why the Ramsey/Penix debate needs to be rehashed now. Penix lost exactly one game - - by seven points - - last year, a game in which he put up 491 yards against a team that played for the national championship. Ramsey wasn't going to top that. In any event, Ramsey had NFL aspirations and it's unlikely he would have been in the mix this season at IU had he not transferred to NW, so I'm not sure what the point is.

Penix is clearly not the same player this year. Maybe he could benefit from a break from football (and, depending on the extent of his injury yesterday, he may have no choice). It's time to give Tuttle and McCulley a shot. After what we've seen in the first three games, I don't think that's a difficult call. Tuttle and McCulley have different skill sets, and McCulley's abilities may better align with what we need to do offensively to compensate for a mediocre (at best) OL. This offense needs a spark, and a dual-threat quarterback may be just the remedy. I'd play them both at Western Kentucky.
DaddyHoosier,

Please forgive the reply above (shakes his head incredulously). Your post was detailed, reasoned, nuanced, and measured!

After driving up from Mississippi to watch the game, I too was struck by the parallels between our quaterback situation now and two years ago. Both situations are difficult because it means benching a starter, who has given much to the FB program. As you made clear, Peyton was more than a game manager; I believe the same is true of Jack Tuttle.

Please keep sharing your well crafted posts!
 
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Totally excellent post and yes, to me it is a no brainer that Tuttle starts against Western Kentucky. If nothing else, that would give the Big Ten teams that we play something else to prepare for and gives Tuttle a little more experience and reps with our main guys. I see no downside in playing him and doing so might light a fire under Penix. We have nothing to lose.
 
Totally excellent post and yes, to me it is a no brainer that Tuttle starts against Western Kentucky. If nothing else, that would give the Big Ten teams that we play something else to prepare for and gives Tuttle a little more experience and reps with our main guys. I see no downside in playing him and doing so might light a fire under Penix. We have nothing to lose.
My sentiments exactly.
 
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Penix doesn't look like his legs are back. The lack of an offensive line his whole career has worn him out. He looks weary and skittish dropping back to pass.
I feel for him. What he did vs. Penn State is what catapulted IU to a new level. I'll always be a fan of his for that alone.
 
If you're going to make a move on the QB position, this is certainly the week to do it. You wouldn't want to do that going up to PSU the following week.

It is a very tough decision because Penix has lots of ability and has beaten Michigan and PSU among others in his career. Those are tremendous accomplishments for a collegiate QB.

I'm glad I don't have to make the decision. I think what I would do is tell Mike we are going to let your hand heal and play Tuttle/McCulley. That's more than fair.
 
I would not be surprised to see a “lingering injury” surface later this week that helps to explain away why Penix won’t be playing in the next game.
 
I, like most of us, have been wowed by some of the things we've seen Michael Penix Jr. do over the last few seasons. That lefty flick of the wrist, when it's 'on', is a true thing of beauty to behold. I am pulling for Penix to succeed as much as anybody and obviously the injury setbacks he has suffered are gut-wrenching and even seem unfair. But I feel an honest assessment of the situation is in order.

A couple of years back it was Penix v Ramsey. Many in the pro-Penix crowd made it seem like Penix was waaaay better than Peyton Ramsey right from the get-go. I tried not to pit one against the other, I always tried to take the approach of doing what was best overall for Indiana Football. And I genuinely liked and like both Penix and Ramsey. That said, I knew inevitably one of them had to be the odd man out. That's just the way it is in competitive sports.

My position was that yes clearly Penix had superior ability when compared to Ramsey but in terms of actual production that gap wasn't really as great as maybe some made it out to be. What Peyton lacked in physical ability he made up for with experience and moxy. From the perspective of Indiana Football it was a great position to be in - two solid Big Ten quarterbacks. Peyton had the edge in terms of command and consistency but Penix was more explosive. I ultimately agreed with the decision to start Penix but cautioned there would be growing pains. Penix wasn't going to come in and win the Heisman. In hindsight I feel my assessment was accurate. In his career (Northwestern included), Ramsey threw for 8,314 yards and 54 touchdowns. That's pretty noteworthy. You'll never convince me that those who were eager to throw Peyton Ramsey under the bus weren't underestimating the kid significantly.

Then last year Indiana went on that magical run. Amid the excitement and jubilation I think some of Penix's sloppiness and fundemental breakdowns were being overlooked because Indiana was beating Penn State, Michigan and Michigan State and giving College Football Playoff contender Ohio State all they could handle. It's hard to blame fans for not wanting to get bogged down in the minutia of elite quarterback play but for Penix the footwork issues were there, accuracy was dropping off, and at times it seemed like Penix had his mind made up where he was going with the ball before it was snapped. I and a few others mentioned some of these things but it mostly got lost in the shuffle amid the drama and elation of being ranked 7th in the country and a legitimate part of the New Year's Six discussion.

This past off season and going into Fall Camp the emphasis and discussion was rightfully on three straight season-ending injuries. What seemed to get overlooked in the conversation was that it's not just about having to recover physically and the mental implications of that, it's about three straight offseasons without spring ball and the opportunity to develop as a player and student of the game. How could that not put Penix behind the curve developmentally? That's thousands of reps that he never got in. That's muscle memory and reaction time that never got downloaded. And on top of that Penix has to deal with the psychology of three major injuries in live game action.

And so now here were are, I don't think it's unfair to wonder if Penix should even be the starter going forward. His play has been so poor through three games that you could even argue that it's myopic to not ask the question.

My initial thought was give Penix one more week to get right against Western Kentucky. But then I thought, what if he doesn't play well? What if it's more of the same? Then all the sudden Indiana is potentially throwing a still inexperienced Jack Tuttle into the fray just as the Hoosiers start the Big Ten gauntlet. So you can make the argument that if a move is going to be made at the quarterback position, this is the week to make it.

I'm honestly torn. I'm glad it's not up to me. Right now I'm leaning more towards going with Tuttle. Big time college football can be pretty cutthroat, that's just the nature of the beast. I want Penix to succeed and hope that he ultimately does but the question at this point is what is best for Indiana Football?
Penix wasn't playing well against Maryland before he was injured. His injury may be healed, but his level of play hasn't returned. He should be benched and Tuttle should have an opportunity to play. Tuttle won at Wisconsin in his first start and finished the Maryland game off the bench.
 
Whether Penix is injured or not, He needs to sit. He needs to see the game from a different perspective (Bench), and hopefully gain a better perspective of what works on the field and why it works,
 
Not really a tough decision going forward if you want to have any chance of playing in a bowl game. Offense is doing the one thing it can't and that is turning the ball over. Negates any kind of defensive performance and ability when your offense sputters like that. I can live with a poor completion rate, but the turnovers (and some have been awful) are inexcusable at this stage in his career. Sit him going forward. Tuttle is more than deserving of a chance.
 
My sentiments exactly.
I agree but, coaches seem to have a tendency to "go down with the ship". Allen does not strike me as being creative or intuitive enough to buck that trend. I think he will stick with Penix until the bitter end. Then it will be too little, too late. I feel badly for Penix. His injuries have made him a shell of what he was. But 3 interceptions in two games is enough. You have to give the kids a chance to win the game. The defense plays well and hard. But they are not good enough to carry the offense. Cincy was very beatable. We made them look better than they are.
 
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But they are not good enough to carry the offense. Cincy was very beatable. We made them look better than they are.
Disagree.

IU's defense has played well enough so far this year to be 3-0. IU's likely 2-1 with even a slightly competent offense Saturday (as well as special teams). If IU's defense continues to play the way they've played they will still end up winning more games than they lose down the stretch so long as there are no more 3 and 4 turnover games.
 
Disagree.

IU's defense has played well enough so far this year to be 3-0. IU's likely 2-1 with even a slightly competent offense Saturday (as well as special teams). If IU's defense continues to play the way they've played they will still end up winning more games than they lose down the stretch so long as there are no more 3 and 4 turnover games.
Not sure why you chose to cherry pick my comment. I like the defense very much. It has played well. It's the offense that's killing us and Penix's performance in particular. My point was that I don't see Tom Allen making a QB change until its too late to salvage the season. He doesn't seem to be flexible in that regard. Tuttle may give the team a better chance to win but, I don't see Allen switching QBs. He will "go down with the ship."
 
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One of the announcers on Saturday said that Penix is going to have to stop throwing the ball to the other team at some point if he wants to stay on the field. At some point, it has to come down to performance and winning. Injuries suck, and life isn't fair. Penix has been inconsistent, inaccurate, and thrown too many picks: if that doesn't change, he shouldn't be on the field. Turnovers and mistakes kill, and you have to make less than the other team to win.
 
If you look at QB play outside of coach DeBoer when coach Sheridan was QB coach and fundamental issues always kept happening even for Ramsey. Coach Sheridan doesn't do a good job as QB coach.
 
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If you're going to make a move on the QB position, this is certainly the week to do it. You wouldn't want to do that going up to PSU the following week.

It is a very tough decision because Penix has lots of ability and has beaten Michigan and PSU among others in his career. Those are tremendous accomplishments for a collegiate QB.

I'm glad I don't have to make the decision. I think what I would do is tell Mike we are going to let your hand heal and play Tuttle/McCulley. That's more than fair.
If it were up to me, I would give Penix a VERY short leash against WKU. If a change has to be made, I want Tuttle/McCullough taking some snaps before Penn St.
 
I would not be surprised to see a “lingering injury” surface later this week that helps to explain away why Penix won’t be playing in the next game.
Totally agree. That gives CTA an out. Sitting and watching shouldn't be the end of the world for Penix. It could give him an opportunity to slow down, reassess, regroup, and kick ass.
 
Is Penix actually good? I mean he had 1 good game last season where he was throwing bombs downfield and Fryfogle was winning 50/50 balls. I think we are overrating our QB.
 
Do you want to know who wants Tuttle to start? Every team left on IU’s schedule, that’s who.
 
Is Penix actually good? I mean he had 1 good game last season where he was throwing bombs downfield and Fryfogle was winning 50/50 balls. I think we are overrating our QB.

Looks to me like he had 3 good games, 1 monster game, 1 stinker until he got hurt, and 1 stinker redeemed by two of the strongest minutes of game time an IU QB has ever had.
 
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Penix showed what he can do against WKU with the performance he had. I wish he would go back to moving a bit in the pocket to get better sight lines but he seems to be rounding back into playing shape once again.
 
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Penix showed what he can do against WKU with the performance he had. I wish he would go back to moving a bit in the pocket to get better sight lines but he seems to be rounding back into playing shape once again.
Yep . . . that plus opposing coaches can review his tapes from last year . . . he ain't sneaking up on anybody this year.
 
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Looks to me like he had 3 good games, 1 monster game, 1 stinker until he got hurt, and 1 stinker redeemed by two of the strongest minutes of game time an IU QB has ever had.
Maybe . . . but I had a measure of confidence in the team with him out there that I've rarely had with QBs on IU teams in the past. I'd take that again in a heartbeat . . . .

BTW, the "stinker" he had against Maryland we were in control of the entire game . . . and the run during which he got hurt essentially put the game away for us. Like I said, his play last year inspired confidence . . . and I'd love to see that again the rest of this year.
 
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Maybe . . . but I had a measure of confidence in the team with him out there that I've rarely had with QBs on IU teams in the past. I'd take that again in a heartbeat . . . .

BTW, the "stinker" he had against Maryland we were in control of the entire game . . . and the run during which he got hurt essentially put the game away for us. Like I said, his play last year inspired confidence . . . and I'd love to see that again the rest of this year.
Oh I agree with you. My comment was in response to fkfootball who acted like MP was a one hit wonder last year. I can admit he wasn’t on fire every game but he certainly had a lot more good games vs bad.
 
I watched some of the WKU game one more time. Penix made some very nice throws and I would think those completions would bolster his confidence moving forward.

As I watched the throws he made, it occurred to me this is exactly what he needed early in the season. Let's hope he continues to build off of it and throws the ball well against PSU.

I'm hoping Penix can light up the Big Ten from this point forward. He's got the skill set.
 
I watched some of the WKU game one more time. Penix made some very nice throws and I would think those completions would bolster his confidence moving forward.

As I watched the throws he made, it occurred to me this is exactly what he needed early in the season. Let's hope he continues to build off of it and throws the ball well against PSU.

I'm hoping Penix can light up the Big Ten from this point forward. He's got the skill set.
Throws off the back foot too much...OL has to give him some help
 
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