Pelosi is 80, McConnell 78, Trump 74 , Biden 77

CO. Hoosier

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It’s idiotic. I deal with old white guys all day. None are threatened. More accurately they are selfish and don’t give a shit. they don't give a shit about blm. they don't give a shit about gays. They care about money money money money money. ive spent my entire adult life working in two industries dominated by old white men. they. do. not. care. threatened is a joke
Indeed. The accumulation of money, influence, and power is a pure meritocracy. You can't get there with preferences, set-asides, or other affirmative action measures.
 

mcmurtry66

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I can't believe someone could actually type that
yeah i don't agree with COH on that either. it presupposes that we all have similar opportunities and we don't. bloom's preoccupation with this made up notion of old white men being threatened is silly. the problem is old white men don't care. they only care about their business, jobs, and taxes. getting them to care is how true opportunity and equity will arise. that won't happen through riots/looting/protests. and it won't happen through government as gov has already done much of its part through statutory and other laws. so how to get old white men to care will be assistive in making life better for everyone. how to do that is multiple pay grades above me. jamie dimon's efforts are a big start and hopefully a promising act for others in position to affect change to follow
 

CO. Hoosier

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I can't believe someone could actually type that
yeah i don't agree with COH on that either. it presupposes that we all have similar opportunities and we don't. bloom's preoccupation with this made up notion of old white men being threatened is silly. the problem is old white men don't care. they only care about their business, jobs, and taxes. getting them to care is how true opportunity and equity will arise. that won't happen through riots/looting/protests. and it won't happen through government as gov has already done much of its part through statutory and other laws. so how to get old white men to care will be assistive in making life better for everyone. how to do that is multiple pay grades above me. jamie dimon's efforts are a big start and hopefully a promising act for others in position to affect change to follow
I think this is pretty obvious and indisputable. If you think I mean that only white males have the benefits of meritocracy you'd be making a huge mistake. Affirmative action techniques are great for breaking down historic barriers, but they are not a substitute for hard work, intelligence and other measures of merit. There are gazillion examples of all kinds of minorities succeeding with their talents after barriers were removed. I don't think Ben Carson got to be one of the best brain surgeons in the world by affirmative action. He earned it. The point is that any of us get where we get based upon our own talents.

I see no reason for white males to be concerned about changing demographics. And I will always argue with those who impute that attitude to white males. Those who work hard and apply themselves will always rise to the top.
 
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mcmurtry66

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I think this is pretty obvious and indisputable. If you think I mean that only white males have the benefits of meritocracy you'd be making a huge mistake. Affirmative action techniques are great for breaking down historic barriers, but they are not a substitute for hard work, intelligence and other measures of merit. There are gazillion examples of all kinds of minorities succeeding with their talents after barriers were removed. I don't think Ben Carson got to be one of the best brain surgeons in the world by affirmative action. He earned it. The point is that any of us get where we get based upon our own talents.

I see no reason for white males to be concerned about changing demographics. And I will always argue with those who impute that attitude to white males. Those who work hard and apply themselves will always rise to the top.
but we don't just get where we get on our own talents alone. many of us are advantaged in opportunities and others are disadvantaged. Our own efforts are only A factor - there are many other factors that propel us or obstruct us and many of these other factors are simply a product of the genetic lottery. if there's things we can do to level the playing field for those who lost the genetic lottery i'm all for it. i just take issue with the gravamen of bloom's post about old white guys and being threatened. it's way off the mark. Old white guys don’t care.
 
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Stuffshot

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No.



Could be. But he takes ignornant positions on the role of government. I don't think he fully understands the concept of limited government established by the Constitution.


Yeah, he was a little preachy. Many politicians are like that.


That didn't bother me. I read somehting his husband said about him. I was impressed. I have never read anything similar in a same sex relationship except in fiction.

Do you really want Biden out there without Dr. Jill? Hell there would be an Amber Alert out for him if he were left on his own.
That's stupid. Biden can ride a bicycle. Trump can't even walk down a ramp.


Next time you try to make a point, pick a good one.
 

ButHerEmails

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He talked about all of it. It's all part of who he is as a person and a candidate. People who have a problem with any of it are injecting their own prejudices into the situation.
CO comes across as one of those people who say “I don’t care if people are gay, I just don’t want them to be gay around me”.
 

CO. Hoosier

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but we don't just get where we get on our own talents alone. many of us are advantaged in opportunities and others are disadvantaged.
Agreed. But that is a different point. The good Black or female lawyers I know aren't good lawyers because they benefited from affirmative action someplace along the line. I think that's the same for anybody. I'm not saying that breaking down historic barriers minorities and women faced to be successful isn't important, because it is. But affirmative action and breaking barriers is the beginning of the story, not the end of it. I agree white males started from a different point, but the ending point is more dependent on merit than it is on accidents of birth. This is why I object to the arguments that white males are afraid of this, that, or the other thing because social norms or demographics change. So long as merit counts more than immutable characteristics, which I think most believe, that white male beware argument is hogwash.
 
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mcmurtry66

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Agreed. But that is a different point. The good Black or female lawyers I know aren't good lawyers because they benefited from affirmative action someplace along the line. I think that's the same for anybody. I'm not saying that breaking down historic barriers minorities and women faced to be successful isn't important, because it is. But affirmative action and breaking barriers is the beginning of the story, not the end of it. I agree white males started from a different point, but the ending point is more dependent on merit than it is on accidents of birth. This is why I object to the arguments that white males are afraid of this, that, or the other thing because social norms or demographics change. So long as merit counts more than imputable characteristics, which I think most believe, that white male beware argument is hogwash.
i see where you're going. merit should always be the dispositive factor - you agree that leveling the playing field so all have something closer to equal opportunities to obtain their goals is impt. it's just at the end merit, again, should be dispositive. i'm on board with that
 

stollcpa

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It’s idiotic. I deal with old white guys all day. None are threatened. More accurately they are selfish and don’t give a shit. they don't give a shit about blm. they don't give a shit about gays. They care about money money money money money. ive spent my entire adult life working in two industries dominated by old white men. they. do. not. care. threatened is a joke
This old white guy has worked his ass off in his own business over 35 years. Went out on my own at 25. I work hard, play hard, unselfishly give time and money to help individuals and the community.

I am just leaving my office right now after working all day.
 

mcmurtry66

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This old white guy has worked his ass off in his own business over 35 years. Went out on my own at 25. I work hard, play hard, unselfishly give time and money to help individuals and the community.

I am just leaving my office right now after working all day.
That’s why I get so nutty about taxes. And I didn’t mean to imply republicans are some how less wasteful. They aren’t. It’s just raising taxes is nothing to take lightly when so many of us sacrifice so much of our lives and our sanity to make money only to watch the gov piss too much of it away.
 

Neves

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You chose the better path. I feel like IU pushed accounting majors towards public accounting. I know what you do is also difficult and stressful.

I’ve certainly been rewarded financially but my physical health has been harmed by my choice. Dealing with so many clients can be challanging at times. In a small community I wear many hats for many clients. As many have questioned my mental health on here, there are days the stress gets to me. LoL.

Although I am a redneck Republican I respect you and your life Neves.
Thank you stoll for the kind words. I have an inkling of how hard it is to work in public accounting, so I feel for you, and understand the amount of stress you deal with to make your clients happy.

I am an IU grad and was also pushed to public accounting... But I quickly learned it wasn't for me. I'm very grateful for my career though. I have been lucky not having to worry about finding a job. Although this pandemic has been the toughest year for me in my career.
 
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stollcpa

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That’s why I get so nutty about taxes. And I didn’t mean to imply republicans are some how less wasteful. They aren’t. It’s just raising taxes is nothing to take lightly when so many of us sacrifice so much of our lives and our sanity to make money only to watch the gov piss too much of it away.
There’s no question both parties piss away money.
 

CO. Hoosier

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This thread is umm.. interesting as a gay person 🤣🤣

Do you think being gay is a tougher row to hoe than being female in the professional world? My law partner of 35 years was one of the smartest, hardest working, and most creative lawyers I know. She earned respect of many lawyers, clients, and judges but others could not get past her sex. I heard about many of the comments and treatment but not all. Much of that is hidden from public view. Dealing with some people was no doubt more challenging for her than for me. I know professionally some gay male lawyers. Probably more who I don’t know about. I never thought they faced the same headwinds. But once again, I only know what is more or less public.
 

hoot1

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Personally, I am glad to be white male from a middle class family who could attend college ( 1955 - 1959) when the cost of college was affordable.

Affordable in that it cost my parents about $800 a year, and I graduated without being in debt.

Compared with kids these days, I consider myself privileged for reasons other than my sex and skin color.
 

Neves

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Do you think being gay is a tougher row to hoe than being female in the professional world? My law partner of 35 years was one of the smartest, hardest working, and most creative lawyers I know. She earned respect of many lawyers, clients, and judges but others could not get past her sex. I heard about many of the comments and treatment but not all. Much of that is hidden from public view. Dealing with some people was no doubt more challenging for her than for me. I know professionally some gay male lawyers. Probably more who I don’t know about. I never thought they faced the same headwinds. But once again, I only know what is more or less public.
No, I definitely think being female in the corporate world is harder. Granted, I am white male, so it is probably different if you are a gay person of color. I can at least play the part... A privilege that I have over a female or person of color.
 
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Morrison

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There’s no question both parties piss away money.
I have an honest question and not being a smart ass.

I, and many others, hear conservatives constantly gripe about paying too much in taxes from the hard earned money they make. It’s especially mentioned when some of the taxes go to assist poor people, etc. The griping comes across as especially selfish, like every dollar wealthy people earn, they should be allowed to keep. “I worked hard for what I have, I shouldn’t have it taken from me because others don’t want to work for theirs” is a familiar reply.

There’s no doubt government is wasteful on both sides. I think that’s irrefutable. My question is: If government was very efficient and honest in distributing the tax dollars, and people knew what their money was going to, would conservatives still feel like the government was stealing their hard earned money, or would they feel better about contributing to the overall good of society?
 

mcmurtry66

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I have an honest question and not being a smart ass.

I, and many others, hear conservatives constantly gripe about paying too much in taxes from the hard earned money they make. It’s especially mentioned when some of the taxes go to assist poor people, etc. The griping comes across as especially selfish, like every dollar wealthy people earn, they should be allowed to keep. “I worked hard for what I have, I shouldn’t have it taken from me because others don’t want to work for theirs” is a familiar reply.

There’s no doubt government is wasteful on both sides. I think that’s irrefutable. My question is: If government was very efficient and honest in distributing the tax dollars, and people knew what their money was going to, would conservatives still feel like the government was stealing their hard earned money, or would they feel better about contributing to the overall good of society?
Yes would feel better, but It’s a practical and philosophical question: is govt the best portal to get money where it’s needed (big vs small gov) and is there enough oversight/accountability. Govt agencies go through a funding/budget process where they always ask for more money. To ask for less admits they aren’t needed as much. Gov doesn’t have to demonstrate need for funding nor demonstrate results to justify funding as compared to private or 501C3s. There are services only gov can and will provide. Always. But individuals making 400k could walk out with 150k in some states and that’s absurd. The blanket “we need to raise taxes” isn’t okay.
 

Morrison

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Yes would feel better, but It’s a practical and philosophical question: is govt the best portal to get money where it’s needed (big vs small gov) and is there enough oversight/accountability. Govt agencies go through a funding/budget process where they always ask for more money. To ask for less admits they aren’t needed as much. Gov doesn’t have to demonstrate need for funding nor demonstrate results to justify funding as compared to private or 501C3s. There are services only gov can and will provide. Always. But individuals making 400k could walk out with 150k in some states and that’s absurd. The blanket “we need to raise taxes” isn’t okay.
Yeah, I suppose I’m looking for something that will never happen. Government being so efficient and honest, that there wouldn’t be a need to raise taxes. Of course we’d need to have all of us citizens agree on what’s truly needed for those tax dollars.
 

mcmurtry66

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Yeah, I suppose I’m looking for something that will never happen. Government being so efficient and honest, that there wouldn’t be a need to raise taxes. Of course we’d need to have all of us citizens agree on what’s truly needed for those tax dollars.
Yup. I’m a big supporter of the military. Come from a military family. But look at the accounting blunders/inventory blunders and general waste coming out of the DOD. It’s absurd. Or hell even the cares act. But why should anyone care when they have a captive audience of taxpayers. So here we have a new election and we’re getting the “we’re going to have to raise taxes” for what? Be a better steward first. Find waste.
 
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Morrison

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Yup. I’m a big supporter of the military. Come from a military family. But look at the accounting blunders/inventory blunders and general waste coming out of the DOD. It’s absurd. Or hell even the cares act. But why should anyone care when they have a captive audience of taxpayers. So here we have a new election and we’re getting the “we’re going to have to raise taxes” for what? Be a better steward first. Find waste.
I’m a supporter of robust defense spending if it weren’t so wasteful. I’m also a supporter of robust social program spending, if it weren’t so wasteful. 🤫
 
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82hoosier

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No.



Could be. But he takes ignornant positions on the role of government. I don't think he fully understands the concept of limited government established by the Constitution.


Yeah, he was a little preachy. Many politicians are like that.


That didn't bother me. I read somehting his husband said about him. I was impressed. I have never read anything similar in a same sex relationship except in fiction.

Do you really want Biden out there without Dr. Jill? Hell there would be an Amber Alert out for him if he were left on his own.
I think the best thing for this country and for the GOP is if Trump loses. I'm not proud of either party. I would vote for any functioning adult over Trump. Getting back to Mayor Pete hats off to him for jumping out of the race early and backing Joe Biden it looked like this was going to get into a mess with is the liberal left-wing of the party.

If Biden wins I hope and pray that he listens to his advisors as well as those on the other side of the aisle. The country needs some consensus in the way that it is governed

If Trump wins and does not carry the Senate I believe he will be impeached before summer and removed from office.
 
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stollcpa

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I have an honest question and not being a smart ass.

I, and many others, hear conservatives constantly gripe about paying too much in taxes from the hard earned money they make. It’s especially mentioned when some of the taxes go to assist poor people, etc. The griping comes across as especially selfish, like every dollar wealthy people earn, they should be allowed to keep. “I worked hard for what I have, I shouldn’t have it taken from me because others don’t want to work for theirs” is a familiar reply.

There’s no doubt government is wasteful on both sides. I think that’s irrefutable. My question is: If government was very efficient and honest in distributing the tax dollars, and people knew what their money was going to, would conservatives still feel like the government was stealing their hard earned money, or would they feel better about contributing to the overall good of society?
They’re not stealing my money at the current rates.
 
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UncleMark

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If Biden wins I hope and pray that he listens to his advisors as well as those on the other side of the aisle. The country needs some consensus in the way that it is governed
There is no reason to believe that Biden would do anything except exactly that. That's who he is and how he's operated his entire career.
If Trump wins and does not carry the Senate I believe he will be impeached before summer and removed from office.
Sorry, but it take 67 Senate votes to remove. Not gonna happen.
 

UncleMark

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TheOriginalHappyGoat

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It’s idiotic. I deal with old white guys all day. None are threatened. More accurately they are selfish and don’t give a shit. they don't give a shit about blm. they don't give a shit about gays. They care about money money money money money. ive spent my entire adult life working in two industries dominated by old white men. they. do. not. care. threatened is a joke
That's because you deal with old white guys who have money. The old white guys on this side of the tracks care about a very different group of things. You guys really need to get out of the gated communities and visit the trailer parks once in a while. :D :D:D

@UncleMark
 
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TheOriginalHappyGoat

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but we don't just get where we get on our own talents alone. many of us are advantaged in opportunities and others are disadvantaged. Our own efforts are only A factor - there are many other factors that propel us or obstruct us and many of these other factors are simply a product of the genetic lottery. if there's things we can do to level the playing field for those who lost the genetic lottery i'm all for it. i just take issue with the gravamen of bloom's post about old white guys and being threatened. it's way off the mark. Old white guys don’t care.
If I have seen further, it is by standing on the shoulders of giants. - Isaac Newton
 
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TheOriginalHappyGoat

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but we don't just get where we get on our own talents alone. many of us are advantaged in opportunities and others are disadvantaged. Our own efforts are only A factor - there are many other factors that propel us or obstruct us and many of these other factors are simply a product of the genetic lottery. if there's things we can do to level the playing field for those who lost the genetic lottery i'm all for it. i just take issue with the gravamen of bloom's post about old white guys and being threatened. it's way off the mark. Old white guys don’t care.
On a more serious note, I think if we really want a truly functional meritocracy, we need to find a way to enable people to make the best use of their inherent gifts, and lessen the impact of circumstantial gifts. In other words, we shouldn't be bothered that someone who has been given an enormous intellect finds success in an area where many others might struggle because they lack his intellectual capacity. Nor should we feel bad when someone who has been taught to develop an exceptional respect and capacity for hard work, focus, and dedication, see his implementation of the same lead to great personal successes.

It's really when someone gets a leg up from benefits that are not inherent in himself - connections, inherited wealth, etc. - to the point that he can rise above those who might not be as luckily positioned, despite having great inherent qualities themselves that we have a problem. If we had a way to restructure society so that each generation had to stand on their own, and sort themselves out, solely on their own abilities, without any regard for the abilities of their forbears, now that would be something.

I'm not sure it's possible, but it would be incredible to behold.
 

mcmurtry66

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On a more serious note, I think if we really want a truly functional meritocracy, we need to find a way to enable people to make the best use of their inherent gifts, and lessen the impact of circumstantial gifts. In other words, we shouldn't be bothered that someone who has been given an enormous intellect finds success in an area where many others might struggle because they lack his intellectual capacity. Nor should we feel bad when someone who has been taught to develop an exceptional respect and capacity for hard work, focus, and dedication, see his implementation of the same lead to great personal successes.

It's really when someone gets a leg up from benefits that are not inherent in himself - connections, inherited wealth, etc. - to the point that he can rise above those who might not be as luckily positioned, despite having great inherent qualities themselves that we have a problem. If we had a way to restructure society so that each generation had to stand on their own, and sort themselves out, solely on their own abilities, without any regard for the abilities of their forbears, now that would be something.

I'm not sure it's possible, but it would be incredible to behold.
Agreed on all counts!
 

TommyCracker

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I think the best thing for this country and for the GOP is if Trump loses. I'm not proud of either party. I would vote for any functioning adult over Trump. Getting back to Mayor Pete hats off to him for jumping out of the race early and backing Joe Biden it looked like this was going to get into a mess with is the liberal left-wing of the party.

If Biden wins I hope and pray that he listens to his advisors as well as those on the other side of the aisle. The country needs some consensus in the way that it is governed

If Trump wins and does not carry the Senate I believe he will be impeached before summer and removed from office.
I never thought of this scenario but wow, great point.

The dude makes an impeach able offense almost on a weekly basis. You're right, he'll be impeached in less than a year if the dems take over the house (and Trump wins).
 

TommyCracker

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And quit acting like this is an old white conservative lens. Being gay is not special to millions of people including me. While I didn't hear everything Gov. Polis said during his campaign, I never heard him use his orientation as Pete did. Many politicians use headwinds in their backgrounds as resume enhancers in the sense of they are special for what they have overcome. Trump does that with his "no president should endure what I have endured" schtick. I don't particularly like any of that either.



You can knock off that stupid racist old white people crap anytime. It's really a dumb point and argument. All you are doing is avoiding substance.



Indeed, and I totally agree. I am much more impressed with those who don't mention their sex, orientation, race, humble backgrounds, or other personal characteristics as a resume enhancer. Speaking about accomplishments is much more influential with me. If Pete ever becomes POTUS, he will do it based upon factors other than being the "first gay president".
Where we differ in opinion is you seem to think everything is equal right now, that the only thing keeping people from reaching their potential is a little elbow grease and determination.

I believe that's a lazy and altruistic, 50,000 feet point of view. You're not acknowledging that we haven't reached 'equality' yet. That's the first goal. We certainly aren't going to get there by doing nothing and letting it all just play out unfortunately.

Look, there is absolutely no doubt that you are a highly intelligent dude which is why I enjoy engaging you on this kind of stuff. However as impressively sharp as you are, you've made several comments that led me to believe you are a stereotypical old, white conservative.

Remember you were the one that made the comment that Biden is probably the last white male to get the democratic nomination for a while. It wasn't an observation, there was worry behind your post.

I think you can make an accurate statement that history has never been kind to conservative thinking. Definitely conservative moral thinking. 100 years from now they are going to judge a conservative view and conclude it's narrow minded thinking.

My question is, why do conservatives fight to the death on this change that is inevitably coming? My only guess is they fight because they are worried of a percieved loss of power.

That's the only way I can make sense of the 60's civil rights movement with conservatives like Wallace and Ross Barnett trying like hell to keep segregation as a way of life.

So yeah, I still think you're looking at this through an old, white, conservative lens where you're used to the world being built for you since you've had the power and the money.

Back to Pete.....

Look I absolutely can agree that him being an openly gay candidate with a husband garnered him needed media attention among the 25 some candidates that ran. No doubt it helped him distinguish himself from a crowed field. But as his campaign grew, his popularity grew because of his substance as a candidate over his sexuality.

He was very quickly identified as the Brad Stevens' of candidates and that's why he was a finalist even though he was just 38 and was just a Mayor of South Bend (both would have been firsts if he would have gone all the way).

So yeah, I think you are viewing this through the lens of an older, white, conservative but we are who we are.
 

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