Our terrible roster

[Tegray1]

somehow competed very well in the first half even without a fifth year senior against a very good veteran team. Amazing with how terrible the roster of highly recruited players is. Hmmm. Then it was stupid, correctable turnovers and fouls that did us in early in the second half.

Maybe soft doesn't mean terrible talent even though some fans want to give this new coach a pass because everything was the old coaches fault.

 

[RBB89]

somehow competed very well in the first half even without a fifth year senior against a very good veteran team. Amazing with how terrible the roster of highly recruited players is. Hmmm. Then it was stupid, correctable turnovers and fouls that did us in early in the second half.

Maybe soft doesn't mean terrible talent even though some fans want to give this new coach a pass because everything was the old coaches fault.

3 games. Three.

 

[IndianaHoops]

somehow competed very well in the first half even without a fifth year senior against a very good veteran team. Amazing with how terrible the roster of highly recruited players is. Hmmm. Then it was stupid, correctable turnovers and fouls that did us in early in the second half.

Maybe soft doesn't mean terrible talent even though some fans want to give this new coach a pass because everything was the old coaches fault.

I’m not going to do this all season....but.....

IU was 18-16 last year and finished 11th in the B10.

Remove the 3 best players from that team and add 1 top 100 receuit. That’s a loaded roster.

We gave Crean 9 years, can we give Miller at least 9 games?

And yes, this is 100% Crean’s fault and the reason he is sitting in a broadcast booth and not on the sidelines somewhere. The truth hurts.

So, you Crean guys get your puches in now.....

 

[hoosier48]

I like Archie already. If you don't understand the situation IU is in with new coach and new players trying to learn the system then watch the nature channel for a while...

 

[hondo314]

somehow competed very well in the first half even without a fifth year senior against a very good veteran team. Amazing with how terrible the roster of highly recruited players is. Hmmm. Then it was stupid, correctable turnovers and fouls that did us in early in the second half.

Maybe soft doesn't mean terrible talent even though some fans want to give this new coach a pass because everything was the old coaches fault.

i know you miss him and must be hurting right now. have you been touching the screen when you've seem him on TV?

 

[Cutter1973]

I really thought we had an intelligent fan base.....Then there are more posts like this. 3 games does not make a season, why is it so hard to understand that?!?!?!

 

[Tegray1]

2 of the 3 best players last year missed how many games which is why they were 18-16. The 1st round draft pick missed most of the BIG season which is why they finished 11th. 2 of those 3 players were so good they will live in the D league.

Justin Smith played harder last night than Bryant and Blackmon ever thought about playing. Some of that is coaching yes and some of that is within. But it isn't TALENT! Being soft has nothing to do with TALENT.

I’m not going to do this all season....but.....

IU was 18-16 last year and finished 11th in the B10.

Remove the 3 best players from that team and add 1 top 100 receuit. That’s a loaded roster.

We gave Crean 9 years, can we give Miller at least 9 games?

And yes, this is 100% Crean’s fault and the reason he is sitting in a broadcast booth and not on the sidelines somewhere. The truth hurts.

So, you Crean guys get your puches in now.....

 

[Courtsensetwo]

I’m not going to do this all season....but.....

IU was 18-16 last year and finished 11th in the B10.

Remove the 3 best players from that team and add 1 top 100 receuit. That’s a loaded roster.

We gave Crean 9 years, can we give Miller at least 9 games?

And yes, this is 100% Crean’s fault and the reason he is sitting in a broadcast booth and not on the sidelines somewhere. The truth hurts.

So, you Crean guys get your puches in now.....

Good points. And for last night...take away IUs most important player right now in Hartman. Colin won't be the most important player all season, but he is right now. Johnson is simply not filling that role at the moment.

Saw some flashbacks to last year with some idiotic post passes but also saw some moments of much better defense. Defensive Foot positioning unlike was saw in recent years.

 

[Tegray1]

I don't miss him. But don't tell me how great a coach Archie Miller is until he proves it and don't tell me this roster doesn't have TALENT. That argument is stupid.

i know you miss him and must be hurting right now. have you been touching the screen when you've seem him on TV?

 

[Tegray1]

Was OG a Top 100 recruit? That has nothing to do with talent. What was Durham rated? Scouts and Coaches miss everyday on talent. After 3 games you can see that Durham is smart enough and has the ability to be a big part of this team for years to come. He was rated 250. Did you notice that Seton Hall allowed open 3's to Newkirk and Johnson but covered up Durham pretty well. That was after 2 games in his career.

I’m not going to do this all season....but.....

IU was 18-16 last year and finished 11th in the B10.

Remove the 3 best players from that team and add 1 top 100 receuit. That’s a loaded roster.

We gave Crean 9 years, can we give Miller at least 9 games?

And yes, this is 100% Crean’s fault and the reason he is sitting in a broadcast booth and not on the sidelines somewhere. The truth hurts.

So, you Crean guys get your puches in now.....

 

[IUNorth]

I’m not going to do this all season....but.....

IU was 18-16 last year and finished 11th in the B10.

Remove the 3 best players from that team and add 1 top 100 receuit. That’s a loaded roster.

We gave Crean 9 years, can we give Miller at least 9 games?

And yes, this is 100% Crean’s fault and the reason he is sitting in a broadcast booth and not on the sidelines somewhere. The truth hurts.

So, you Crean guys get your puches in now.....

Agree with the gist of your post...but to be fair...we were 18-16 because Colin was out all year, and then OG was out for the second half of the season. We beat Kansas, and the eventual Natty in Carolina with OG...with both those guys all year that's a 25 win team, capable of making a deep NCAA run. With OG all year, we'd have still been up and down, but certainly would have been MUCH better than 18-16.

But you're right...we're not stocked with studs. And the talented guys we do have, don't appear to be picking up Archie's system very quickly. The only plausible answer, to me, is that the returning guys were used a program so drastically different, that the adjustment is going to take longer than a normal new coach situation. Most coaches teach elements of solid fundamentals, offensively and defensively. Assuming Archie is forcing all that on them now, their play thus far leads me to believe Crean's program was worse than even I thought it was on fundamental things that would translate over into Archie's system.

 

[kkott]

I don't miss him. But don't tell me how great a coach Archie Miller is until he proves it and don't tell me this roster doesn't have TALENT. That argument is stupid.

You do need talent, but what you really need is talent recruited for a specific purpose. Doubtful any coach will ever get JBJ to be a good defender, despite having all the physical tools. These players have never known what it means and how hard they have to compete on the defensive end of the floor. And we lost our top 3 scorer's to boot. Durham is a good player. No team is quaking at the thought of him shooting 3s.

 

[Tegray1]

Archie re-recruited the freshmen hard to get them to stay and ran Gelon off so don't think he wasn't doing that.

You do need talent, but what you really need is talent recruited for a specific purpose. Doubtful any coach will ever get JBJ to be a good defender, despite having all the physical tools. These players have never known what it means and how hard they have to compete on the defensive end of the floor. And we lost our top 3 scorer's to boot. Durham is a good player. No team is quaking at the thought of him shooting 3s.

 

[iubud]

somehow competed very well in the first half even without a fifth year senior against a very good veteran team. Amazing with how terrible the roster of highly recruited players is. Hmmm. Then it was stupid, correctable turnovers and fouls that did us in early in the second half.

Maybe soft doesn't mean terrible talent even though some fans want to give this new coach a pass because everything was the old coaches fault.

Talent is nice to have, but means nothing if you have played in a system that rewards turnovers and a lack of defense. On paper, we probably should be the better team. I said last night during the game that I would prefer freshmen than our experience players that still play like Crean is the coach. I am encouraged that we have 2 freshman that are playing smarter than the seniors.

It is early. CAM is still giving Newkirk, McSwain, and Rojo time to come around. Durham and Green will be players CAM will give a lot of playing time to. CAM will try to keep Rojo as a starter and I am okay with that.

I see us using Smith, Morgan, and Davis to rotate through the 4 and 5 spots. Hartman and a third guard will play in the 3 spot. The 1 and 2 will see a rotation of Durham, Rojo, Green, Cujo, and Newkirk. These are the players you will see once the conference season starts. It may get cut back to 8 players if one of the guards don't value the ball or play defense.

 

[kkott]

Archie re-recruited the freshmen hard to get them to stay and ran Gelon off so don't think he wasn't doing that.

And in April his options were? So let's get it on the record: you think we'd be better with Gelon on the roster and playing vs Seton Hall?

I know, it's a lot easier to bitch and get's harder when you have to actually identify the solutions with what our situation was/is.

 

[IUCrazy2]

Archie re-recruited the freshmen hard to get them to stay and ran Gelon off so don't think he wasn't doing that.

By the time he was hired he had little choice but to deal with the players we already had recruited and that were already on the team.

Yoh are pissed that in a few months that he has not been able to do what Crean could not do in years with guys he recruited. The younger guys are playing better right now, wonder why that is.

Johnson and Newkirk, at the end of a couple of years of Crean coaching needed the bench to hold up signs to remind them what they needed to do in games. That does not fix itself in a few months. Particularly when more is being demanded of you. Archie could throw away this year to make the upperclassmen comfortable or he can take his lumps and get the younger players adapted to his style and his culture. He has chosen the latter. And I get it, these types of years suck ass, blame that on the guy who did not properly do his job while here and those who enabled him to keep said job long after it was apparent he was not hacking it.

Finally, do yourself a favor and DVR the games this year. You can avoid watching the sausage getting made.

 

[MrBing]

somehow competed very well in the first half even without a fifth year senior against a very good veteran team. Amazing with how terrible the roster of highly recruited players is. Hmmm. Then it was stupid, correctable turnovers and fouls that did us in early in the second half.

Maybe soft doesn't mean terrible talent even though some fans want to give this new coach a pass because everything was the old coaches fault.

I'm enjoying the season so far and I'm going to enjoy it all season. We're watching an outstanding coach develop a team. We're going to be happy with what he develops by the end of the season. I am totally positive about this.

 

[Tegray1]

My argument is that this roster has TALENT to be middle of the BIG not 10th as predicted. Barring major injuries. Gelon didn't fit his vision which is why he was run off. That happens and let's call it what is was. I'm fine with that. If Priller wasn't a senior he would have got rid of him also. Soft has nothing to do with talent. It's mental toughness and ability to respond under adversity.

And in April his options were? So let's get it on the record: you think we'd be better with Gelon on the roster and playing vs Seton Hall?

I know, it's a lot easier to bitch and get's harder when you have to actually identify the solutions with what our situation was/is.

 

[UncleMark]

I'm enjoying the season so far and I'm going to enjoy it all season. We're watching an outstanding coach develop a team. We're going to be happy with what he develops by the end of the season. I am totally positive about this.

Development is what will be fun to watch. We've seen a bit just over the last three games. If we can play consistently like we did in the first half against SH we will win some ball games. Sunday's game should provide even more insights.

Following the team is what I've missed. This season will bring some of that back.

 

[hondo314]

I don't miss him. But don't tell me how great a coach Archie Miller is until he proves it and don't tell me this roster doesn't have TALENT. That argument is stupid.

haven't read a single post saying he's great. have read many saying they like what they see so far even as we struggle.

so it seems you are painting with as broad a brush as the folks you are condemning. but it's all good brother! that's exactly how the human brain works unless we are totally paying attention. we all do this.

 

[Tegray1]

You haven't read the Board much. We have zero TALENT on this roster.

haven't read a single post saying he's great. have read many saying they like what they see so far even as we struggle.

so it seems you are painting with as broad a brush as the folks you are condemning. but it's all good brother! that's exactly how the human brain works unless we are totally paying attention. we all do this.

 

[SuperHoosierFan]

somehow competed very well in the first half even without a fifth year senior against a very good veteran team. Amazing with how terrible the roster of highly recruited players is. Hmmm. Then it was stupid, correctable turnovers and fouls that did us in early in the second half.

Maybe soft doesn't mean terrible talent even though some fans want to give this new coach a pass because everything was the old coaches fault.

Crean was such an awesome coach! I forgot, what school came in and swooped him up after he was no longer our coach?

 

[Tegray1]

Hey clueless, I think you missed the argument.

Crean was such an awesome coach! I forgot, what school came in and swooped him up after he was no longer our coach?

 

[SuperHoosierFan]

Hey clueless, I think you missed the argument.

You had an argument?

 

[TommyCracker]

Archie plays a packline defense and he runs, which is music to a lot of older guy's ears, a motion half court offense.

They are extremely effective but they are a bit he to learn. Unfortunately you need a lot of guys on the same page communicating effectively.

Knight used to say that it took a player a year or so to get it...and that's just the offense.

Archie is trying to run a semblance of a complicated defense along with a complicated offense with guys who haven't had any experience on both sides of the ball with these scheme's.

The good news is like I said, they are extremely effective when it's clicking.

Unfortunately expecting a full team to have it down in three games is a little too much to ask. It's probably going to be January or so before things start to click and even that might be enthusiastic.

Normally we're going to have guys who are experienced with these schemes so it's just a handful of guys who need to go through the learning curve...not the entire team.

You are correct that they can give max effort regardless and I didn't see that until last night...so I was encouraged with that.

If you want to know what a motion offense looks like when it's run well by an experienced team...look up north and try to ignore the smell of manure.

They aren't more talented than we are on paper....but they have their offense down and I hate to say it they run it well.

Of course it helps to have three years to learn it and to already have a ton of games under your belt for the current season vs 5.

 

[Tegray1]

but we have no TALENT. But all the TOP 150 players we signed this year will be greater than all the TOP 150 players on the current roster.

Archie plays a packline defense and he runs, which is music to a lot of older guy's ears, a motion half court offense.

They are extremely effective but they are a bit he to learn. Unfortunately you need a lot of guys on the same page communicating effectively.

Knight used to say that it took a player a year or so to get it...and that's just the offense.

Archie is trying to run a semblance of a complicated defense along with a complicated offense with guys who haven't had any experience on both sides of the ball with these scheme's.

The good news is like I said, they are extremely effective when it's clicking.

Unfortunately expecting a full team to have it down in three games is a little too much to ask. It's probably going to be January or so before things start to click and even that might be enthusiastic.

Normally we're going to have guys who are experienced with these schemes so it's just a handful of guys who need to go through the learning curve...not the entire team.

You are correct that they can give max effort regardless and I didn't see that until last night...so I was encouraged with that.

 

[kkott]

My argument is that this roster has TALENT to be middle of the BIG not 10th as predicted. Barring major injuries. Gelon didn't fit his vision which is why he was run off. That happens and let's call it what is was. I'm fine with that. If Priller wasn't a senior he would have got rid of him also. Soft has nothing to do with talent. It's mental toughness and ability to respond under adversity.

And a coach who recruited them to play in their system and had experience with them, could have them in the middle of the pack. With a new system and coach, it's going to take awhile. I would guess if he does't lose this team, they'll be playing at that level by mid or latter half of the season. Crean never valued guys who weren't good offensive players, but were good defenders and role players, like most other coaches do, which is why a Priller or Gelon were even on the roster to begin with. He's doing the best with what he has, but these players are learning a new system and points of emphasis, and weren't recruited to fit that type of system. Some he probably would recruit, but several I don't think would be wearing IU uniforms if CAM had been the coach here for the last 4 years.

 

[abraxis]

somehow competed very well in the first half even without a fifth year senior against a very good veteran team. Amazing with how terrible the roster of highly recruited players is. Hmmm. Then it was stupid, correctable turnovers and fouls that did us in early in the second half.

Maybe soft doesn't mean terrible talent even though some fans want to give this new coach a pass because everything was the old coaches fault.

After watching Michigan State vs. Duke followed by Seton Hall, back to back, I can tell you that the Seton Hall talent is not on the same level as either of the aforementioned teams. "Just say 'in". IU and Seton Hall looked about the same when they were just "sparing"in the first half, but in the second half SH stepped up their game while perhaps IU's top game was the first half, at least at this very early start to the season.

 

[SuperHoosierFan]

And a coach who recruited them to play in their system and had experience with them, could have them in the middle of the pack. With a new system and coach, it's going to take awhile. I would guess if he does't lose this team, they'll be playing at that level by mid or latter half of the season. Crean never valued guys who weren't good offensive players, but were good defenders and role players, like most other coaches do, which is why a Priller or Gelon were even on the roster to begin with. He's doing the best with what he has, but these players are learning a new system and points of emphasis, and weren't recruited to fit that type of system. Some he probably would recruit, but several I don't think would be wearing IU uniforms if CAM had been the coach here for the last 4 years.

It’s almost like some people don’t realize these players have only been learning this system since mid October. Not just the freshmen, but ALL the players have been trying to learn this new system. It’s not like we have a senior, junior, or sophomore who spent a previous year learning this new system and can help teach the younger guys. No, this is new for every player, top to bottom. This season is going to be rough to watch from a W-L standpoint.

 

[TommyCracker]

but we have no TALENT. But all the TOP 150 players we signed this year will be greater than all the TOP 150 players on the current roster.

I personally believe it will be three or four years...when Green is a senior and TJD is a frosh when we'll be ready to compete for a Natty run.

I still say we're middle of the pack in the conference when it's all said and done. The more these guys start to 'get it' that paper talent will reveal itself.

It's fugly and confusing right now but we now have some cupcakes and a little time to get better before Duke comes and curb stomps us.

If we can win one of the Louisville or Notre Dame games and not lose both of the big ten December games... we'll still have a shot at the tourney.

I fully expect this team to improve exponentially as the year goes on like Matta's (Archie's mentor) teams used to do.

 

[Tegray1]

These excuses are hilarious. "Some he would recruit" So the other TOP 150 players wouldn't be worthy of his recruitment. You know 4 of the 5 starters last night were Rivals TOP 100. Another off the bench. Another Top 150 off the bench. Yes they are learning and you saw a lot of progress already. But

SOFT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH TALENT. DON'T TELL ME THIS TEAM DOESN'T HAVE TALENT.

And a coach who recruited them to play in their system and had experience with them, could have them in the middle of the pack. With a new system and coach, it's going to take awhile. I would guess if he does't lose this team, they'll be playing at that level by mid or latter half of the season. Crean never valued guys who weren't good offensive players, but were good defenders and role players, like most other coaches do, which is why a Priller or Gelon were even on the roster to begin with. He's doing the best with what he has, but these players are learning a new system and points of emphasis, and weren't recruited to fit that type of system. Some he probably would recruit, but several I don't think would be wearing IU uniforms if CAM had been the coach here for the last 4 years.

 

[hoosier48]

It’s almost like some people don’t realize these players have only been learning this system since mid October. Not just the freshmen, but ALL the players have been trying to learn this new system. It’s not like we have a senior, junior, or sophomore who spent a previous year learning this new system and can help teach the younger guys. No, this is new for every player, top to bottom. This season is going to be rough to watch from a W-L standpoint.

Thank you...this sums it up!

 

[hondo314]

These excuses are hilarious. "Some he would recruit" So the other TOP 150 players wouldn't be worthy of his recruitment. You know 4 of the 5 starters last night were Rivals TOP 100. Another off the bench. Another Top 150 off the bench. Yes they are learning and you saw a lot of progress already. But

SOFT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH TALENT. DON'T TELL ME THIS TEAM DOESN'T HAVE TALENT.

well, you've found your Moby Dick. Good luck with that!

 

[Tegray1]

Not sure you have heard. The players can be here all summer with some contact with coaches. I think it's called individual workouts. But if they just started learning in October is that a slap at the staff for not starting sooner? So it's the system and not the TALENT? Because the Coach said last night it was the stupid passes that turned the game around. Which, yes, could be bad decision making from previous offense to new offense or just not learning good passing yet.

Thank you...this sums it up!

 

[bsmitty08]

somehow competed very well in the first half even without a fifth year senior against a very good veteran team. Amazing with how terrible the roster of highly recruited players is. Hmmm. Then it was stupid, correctable turnovers and fouls that did us in early in the second half.

Maybe soft doesn't mean terrible talent even though some fans want to give this new coach a pass because everything was the old coaches fault.

This is not a very talented team.

 

[IndianaHoops]

These excuses are hilarious. "Some he would recruit" So the other TOP 150 players wouldn't be worthy of his recruitment. You know 4 of the 5 starters last night were Rivals TOP 100. Another off the bench. Another Top 150 off the bench. Yes they are learning and you saw a lot of progress already. But

SOFT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH TALENT. DON'T TELL ME THIS TEAM DOESN'T HAVE TALENT.

What would Crean’s record be right now?

ISU is no Ft Wayne? Right?

Because that’s what you are trying to say, right?

That Miller is no better than Crean, right?

All this “talent” plus 2 NBA players and another McDonald’s All American wasn’t enough for Crean to make the NCAA. Think about that for a second.

And not a single player is a Miller recruit....not one.

Excuses? Now go make your list on why poor little Crean had such a bad season last year with the SAME roster plus 2 NBA PLAYERS and a MCDONALDS ALL AMERICAN.....

 

[IU Scott]

2 of the 3 best players last year missed how many games which is why they were 18-16. The 1st round draft pick missed most of the BIG season which is why they finished 11th. 2 of those 3 players were so good they will live in the D league.

Justin Smith played harder last night than Bryant and Blackmon ever thought about playing. Some of that is coaching yes and some of that is within. But it isn't TALENT! Being soft has nothing to do with TALENT.

You just make this fan base look stupid. This fan base use to be one of the most knowledgeable fan bases but today with people like you makes us all look stupid.

 

[Tegray1]

So the Rivals Ratings all totally wrong? Many players rated above them aren't in college anymore.

Davis #35
Johnson #48
Cujo #69
Morgan #109
Smith #119
Newkirk #129
Moore #133

This is not a very talented team.

 

[bsmitty08]

So the Rivals Ratings all totally wrong? Many players rated above them aren't in college anymore.

Davis #35
Johnson #48
Cujo #69
Morgan #109
Smith #119
Newkirk #129
Moore #133

After too 25 it’s a crapshoot...those rankings mean nothjng

 

[IU Scott]

So the Rivals Ratings all totally wrong? Many players rated above them aren't in college anymore.

Davis #35
Johnson #48
Cujo #69
Morgan #109
Smith #119
Newkirk #129
Moore #133

What is so hard for you to understand that it will take time for Miller to get this team playing the way he wants the game to be played. You can't just get the players to forget their old habits and how Crean had them play. It is obvious you never played the game and know what it takes to win games.