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So, the factory model of public schooling, encouraged by industrialists and created to ensure a docile and agreeable work force by emphasizing following orders in classrooms all day while sitting in straight rows and being subjected to a top down, one way flow of information is a result of liberal influence?
Absurd.
LMAO. Where did all the entrepreneurs and industrialists come from? But you are true to your liberalism. You see the population, in this case, the student body, as “the work force”. Karl Marx is smiling.
 
LMAO. Where did all the entrepreneurs and industrialists come from? But you are true to your liberalism. You see the population, in this case, the student body, as “the work force”. Karl Marx is smiling.

Why are you and @Bulk VanderHuge arguing... you are meeting in the middle

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LMAO. Where did all the entrepreneurs and industrialists come from? But you are true to your liberalism. You see the population, in this case, the student body, as “the work force”. Karl Marx is smiling.
No, the Chamber of Commerce/Politicians view the student body as "the work force". Test scores are used as red meat.
One of the issues in education, especially urban districts, is that true reform is next to impossible.
1. Everyone has gone to school, so everyone is an expert on school.
2. Schools are trapped in a loop of superintendents who last an average of about 3 years. Every new superintendent brings in his/her own ideas.
3. The other loop impacting schools is caused by impatience. When a new, possibly effective reform strategy is introduced, there is always a predictable adjustment period, during which test scores may drop. This period may take 2-3 years to work itself out. As a result, most real reform never gets out of the starting gate, because the public is told that it was unsuccessful. This leads to dropping the strategy for the newest one to come down the pike. Many times, the newest thing is just repackaged old things. Teachers are fond of saying, about superintendents and reform, "This too shall pass". It's not that they don't believe that reform is necessary...they just are smart enough to know that it it usually fruitless to become fully invested.

I think all rational people can agree that the school calendar, daily schedule, and overall mechanics of the school day needs a refresh. The problem is that the people truly in charge are not rational, and are comfortable with the status quo. After all, if it was good enough for me, it's good enough for kids today. I think we both know which side of the political aisle is more about the status quo.
 
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No, the Chamber of Commerce/Politicians view the student body as "the work force". Test scores are used as red meat.
One of the issues in education, especially urban districts, is that true reform is next to impossible.
1. Everyone has gone to school, so everyone is an expert on school.
2. Schools are trapped in a loop of superintendents who last an average of about 3 years. Every new superintendent brings in his/her own ideas.
3. The other loop impacting schools is caused by impatience. When a new, possibly effective reform strategy is introduced, there is always a predictable adjustment period, during which test scores may drop. This period may take 2-3 years to work itself out. As a result, most real reform never gets out of the starting gate, because the public is told that it was unsuccessful. This leads to dropping the strategy for the newest one to come down the pike. Many times, the newest thing is just repackaged old things. Teachers are fond of saying, about superintendents and reform, "This too shall pass". It's not that they don't believe that reform is necessary...they just are smart enough to know that it it usually fruitless to become fully invested.

I think all rational people can agree that the school calendar, daily schedule, and overall mechanics of the school day needs a refresh. The problem is that the people truly in charge are not rational, and are comfortable with the status quo. After all, if it was good enough for me, it's good enough for kids today. I think we both know which side of the political aisle is more about the status quo.
In my failed attempt to run for my elementary (K-8) school board a few years ago, I studied a lot this. Your three points are exactly what I found to be true.

One add-on, though, is that teacher's interests are not aligned with the reforms you seem to want. Teachers do not want to teach year round, and many do not want to change their teaching style or learn new subject matter to accommodate the flavor-of-the-day education fad. Understandable interests, but if you want to reform the system for the better, you have to be willing to take on the teachers unions. That's the true status quo party on this issue, in my mind, not the conservatives.

Back to this corporatist/"worker force" notion, though: what part of your K-12 schooling did you think was geared towards creating a good worker? Subject-matter wise or otherwise? I'm not sure I buy the notion that making kids sit in rows and raise their hands and be quiet while the teacher works is some kind of "worker" indoctrination; that seems to me to just be the way you have to control 20-30 children in nearly any setting if you want to get something done.
 
In my failed attempt to run for my elementary (K-8) school board a few years ago, I studied a lot this. Your three points are exactly what I found to be true.

One add-on, though, is that teacher's interests are not aligned with the reforms you seem to want. Teachers do not want to teach year round, and many do not want to change their teaching style or learn new subject matter to accommodate the flavor-of-the-day education fad. Understandable interests, but if you want to reform the system for the better, you have to be willing to take on the teachers unions. That's the true status quo party on this issue, in my mind, not the conservatives.

Back to this corporatist/"worker force" notion, though: what part of your K-12 schooling did you think was geared towards creating a good worker? Subject-matter wise or otherwise? I'm not sure I buy the notion that making kids sit in rows and raise their hands and be quiet while the teacher works is some kind of "worker" indoctrination; that seems to me to just be the way you have to control 20-30 children in nearly any setting if you want to get something done.
I totally see your point, and I know in Illinois, the teachers' union is powerful. In Indiana, however, the union can only negotiate salaries...period. It's not the Kraken here that I'm sure it is in Illinois.
 
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In my failed attempt to run for my elementary (K-8) school board a few years ago, I studied a lot this. Your three points are exactly what I found to be true.

One add-on, though, is that teacher's interests are not aligned with the reforms you seem to want. Teachers do not want to teach year round, and many do not want to change their teaching style or learn new subject matter to accommodate the flavor-of-the-day education fad. Understandable interests, but if you want to reform the system for the better, you have to be willing to take on the teachers unions. That's the true status quo party on this issue, in my mind, not the conservatives.

Back to this corporatist/"worker force" notion, though: what part of your K-12 schooling did you think was geared towards creating a good worker? Subject-matter wise or otherwise? I'm not sure I buy the notion that making kids sit in rows and raise their hands and be quiet while the teacher works is some kind of "worker" indoctrination; that seems to me to just be the way you have to control 20-30 children in nearly any setting if you want to get something done.
When I think of substantial discipline and regimentation in an educational environment I think of service academies and private schools. Those environments usually produce leaders.
 
No, the Chamber of Commerce/Politicians view the student body as "the work force". Test scores are used as red meat.
One of the issues in education, especially urban districts, is that true reform is next to impossible.
1. Everyone has gone to school, so everyone is an expert on school.
2. Schools are trapped in a loop of superintendents who last an average of about 3 years. Every new superintendent brings in his/her own ideas.
3. The other loop impacting schools is caused by impatience. When a new, possibly effective reform strategy is introduced, there is always a predictable adjustment period, during which test scores may drop. This period may take 2-3 years to work itself out. As a result, most real reform never gets out of the starting gate, because the public is told that it was unsuccessful. This leads to dropping the strategy for the newest one to come down the pike. Many times, the newest thing is just repackaged old things. Teachers are fond of saying, about superintendents and reform, "This too shall pass". It's not that they don't believe that reform is necessary...they just are smart enough to know that it it usually fruitless to become fully invested.

I think all rational people can agree that the school calendar, daily schedule, and overall mechanics of the school day needs a refresh. The problem is that the people truly in charge are not rational, and are comfortable with the status quo. After all, if it was good enough for me, it's good enough for kids today. I think we both know which side of the political aisle is more about the status quo.
You make some valid points. That said, I think we have seen much educational reform in the last 10 or 20 years. Charters are having an impact. CRT and similar thought control is causing people to pay attention to school board elections.

I don’t think the mechanics of education is any problem. I agree with Brad that it is necessary. But I am very concerned about thought and idea regimentation and the restrictions on free expression that accompanies it.
 
You make some valid points. That said, I think we have seen much educational reform in the last 10 or 20 years. Charters are having an impact. CRT and similar thought control is causing people to pay attention to school board elections.

I don’t think the mechanics of education is any problem. I agree with Brad that it is necessary. But I am very concerned about thought and idea regimentation and the restrictions on free expression that accompanies it.
So, Labor Day to Memorial Day (give or take) 8:00 - 3:00 (give or take), arbitrary age-driven grade divisions, top down teacher as the sage on the stage set up is not a problem? A person looking at a school from almost a century ago would not find much in their day that would be foreign to them. Meanwhile, the world has changed quite a bit.
And don't get me started on the purpose of grades.
 
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So, Labor Day to Memorial Day (give or take) 8:00 - 3:00 (give or take), arbitrary age-driven grade divisions, top down teacher as the sage on the stage set up is not a problem?
And don't get me started on the purpose of grades.
Don’t get me started on homework. Especially at the grade school and middle school levels. It’s bananas these days. Causes so much unnecessary stress and strife in homes each evening.
 
Looking online, our fourth and 8th grade scores are not bad,


We start falling way behind in high school. That is mentioned in the article below on Maryland. Maryland totally redesigned their education system. The new plan is to have everyone at core competency at end of tenth grade, then enroll them in programs (ACP, World Baccalaureate, etc) for 11 and 12. So everything down to 1st is redesigned to fit the model. Included are before school and summer tutoring programs for kids falling behind.


I do not have the article, one pointed out there is no magic. Finland only has one standardized test, fewer school days, and less homework than the US. Singapore loves standardized tests, more school hours/days, and homework. Both finish (pun intended) well above the US.

That reminds me of something I read years ago. Stand and Deliver came out, teachers tried to copy but failed. Freedom Writers came out, teachers tried to copy but failed. The reason was simple, Stand and Deliver fit that teacher's strengths and likes. It was his passion. People without that passion for that methodology cannot tech that way like he could.

Read about the Maryland system, I like the concept of looking at the problem like an engineer and designing from the result to the beginning. But it will be years before we know if it works.

Which is the other US problem, do we give solutions time to work?
 
Here's an interesting blogpost at Why Evolution is True (which is a really interesting site, with pretty intelligent comments, too) about the strong heritability of IQ:


I don't know if a study has been done to examine how much schooling or teachers affect IQ scores as well.

Two things it brought to mind, though:

1. Studies like this support the notion that maybe a teacher doesn't have much effect on a student's standardized test scores, especially if the test is designed to measure IQ;

2. Maybe we should be adjusting scores from schools to factor out/in student IQ to get a sense of how well the school is doing at teaching academic subjects.
 
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Here's an interesting blogpost at Why Evolution is True (which is a really interesting site, with pretty intelligent comments, too) about the strong heritability of IQ:


I don't know if a study has been done to examine how much schooling or teachers affect IQ scores as well.

Two things it brought to mind, though:

1. Studies like this support the notion that maybe a teacher doesn't have much effect on a student's standardized test scores, especially if the test is designed to measure IQ;

2. Maybe we should be adjusting scores from schools to factor out/in student IQ to get a sense of how well the school is doing at teaching academic subjects.
A friend who was getting her master's degree once told me that back when ISTEP was given in the fall, it included a sort of IQ test, that was used to see how the kids were doing academically in comparison to their intellectual level. The professor said that IPS students always surpassed their levels of predicted achievement at a much greater rate than all the townships and suburbs.
Of course, this was never reported on by the local media, who only focused on the raw scores, which painted IPS in a bad light. Of course, if true, this measurement showed how much IPS teachers were able to lift their students academic level, in comparison to other districts.
 
A friend who was getting her master's degree once told me that back when ISTEP was given in the fall, it included a sort of IQ test, that was used to see how the kids were doing academically in comparison to their intellectual level. The professor said that IPS students always surpassed their levels of predicted achievement at a much greater rate than all the townships and suburbs.
Of course, this was never reported on by the local media, who only focused on the raw scores, which painted IPS in a bad light. Of course, if true, this measurement showed how much IPS teachers were able to lift their students academic level, in comparison to other districts.
See, that seems like a really useful thing to know.
 
A friend who was getting her master's degree once told me that back when ISTEP was given in the fall, it included a sort of IQ test, that was used to see how the kids were doing academically in comparison to their intellectual level. The professor said that IPS students always surpassed their levels of predicted achievement at a much greater rate than all the townships and suburbs.
Of course, this was never reported on by the local media, who only focused on the raw scores, which painted IPS in a bad light. Of course, if true, this measurement showed how much IPS teachers were able to lift their students academic level, in comparison to other districts.
That's awesome. Coached em up
 
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yep what loser would want to be a fire fighter. work 9 days a month. a 9 day vacation from your family with the guys where you bbq and play poker. and you're vested at 38 in case you feel like doing something else later in life
Most firemen I know have side jobs that pay pretty damn well - tax free, since they work for cash.

They're doing quite well.
 
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